omegaxis1

Yet such "force" is completely gone when you are in their house routes respectively. Ashe is never on the Dukedom's side in AM, nor is Lorenz helping the Empire in VW. Like I said, it's a matter of how Byleth's direct influence affects them to a great extent. Out of the already long list of reasons to hate the Church, this is not the end all, be all things to hate the Church for. It's literally just one more thing. Not even the game treats how Arianrhod's destruction was bad to the point that people were extremely vengeful on the Church. All it does it just motivate them to win the war as fast as possible. If you have things where people want to slaughter everyone in the church, you'd have a case. But no one does. Because people already have reasons to hate the Church. Hell, Lorenz even states it himself of how many nobles want Rhea dead, and have just played lip service to the Church for so long out of fear of losing power. What "hints" are you referring to? We know that Edelgard is definitely thinking about deeper things, but she's not lying to us. If anything, most of the time, she's trying to get Byleth to understand the problems of Fodlan and the corruption of the Church. Also, nope. Hanneman himself is aware of their existence, and even remarks about how the Empire would likely be going against them after the war. So there's definitely people that are aware of there being some less than savory allies within the Empire. So no, there's no "two blatant lies". And withholding information until the time is right is not the same as actually lying. Dude... where do you get the idea that you can define how "friends" are? Are you the master of friendships that you can declare who are friends and who aren't? People have friendships that are friendships to them and would be true by their own beliefs. So no, the Black Eagle House would still be friends because the people in there believe as such. What you said here is just downright silly.

I'll be honest, I have mixed feelings on that. One hand, I agree that having to literally wait a month for stuff to happen is silly. But on the other hand, you are aware of there being a sense of time passing, unlike other games where you have to wonder whether time was passing or not like in Awakening or Fates. I think Fire Emblem could benefit from giving players a sense of time passing in the games.

Because he has a sword.

I'm more going about the fact that one of the biggest aspects of Edelgard's beliefs and characteristics is choice. She desires freedom for humanity and for people to have a choice. I frankly find the aspect of people trying to play it off as her forcing people to fight for her as arguing in bad faith. Everything about Edelgard and even her own route is about choices. Her route is something that you have to CHOOSE to enter. You don't get a choice in Blue Lions or Golden Deer, and Silver Snow is a default route that Byleth doesn't choose of his own will.

I mean, Byleth literally tells Edelgard, to her face, that he was blessed by the goddess, and Edelgard tells him that she intends to oppose the Church that worships the goddess. She expresses it at the end the deeper case, but she always gave him an out while explaining her own intentions. The fact of the matter is that Edelgard doesn't shy away from expressing what Byleth being by her side entails and how she's giving him an out with it in mind. She only explains her reasons only when he sides with her, in a point when she doesn't believe he would side with her. It's why his decision to protect her is so shocking. Hell, she even says before he made his choice that she knew that she and him would be in opposition.

I don't recall her "justifying" herself to him. Keep in mind that every time she's giving him the choice, she tells him that she's going to fight against the Church and Rhea, making it clear that her path will likely lead to the death of Byleth's own kind. Unless you consider her expressing her reasons and letting down her barriers to show her more vulnerable side as her "justifying" herself, but that certainly wouldn't be the case.

It actually isn't about guilt or anything to do about the Agarthans. It's actually about how Edelgard realized that Byleth is the same race as Rhea. She expresses as much in the end of CF, where she explains that when she learned that Byleth had been blessed by the "goddess" it meant that there was no way that Byleth would side with her. This is why in the JP version, when Edelgard learns that Byleth was blessed by the goddess, she let out a long drawn out sigh. As if she was taking in the fact that her fate was sealed to fight against Byleth. So her giving him the choice to leave her is her thinking that there shouldn't be any way that Byleth, who should be the same as Rhea, would fight alongside her, and there must be a mistake. But Byleth assured her that he would remain with her. It never had anything to do with "right or wrong" but simply that Byleth was destined to oppose Edelgard because he's a child of the goddess. But CF is the route where Byleth opposes that fate.

Now you're trying to loop around the fact of what Edelgard does and stands for, and trying to push the idea that she gave her friends no choice. Her friends had a choice. Dorothea and Petra had a choice as well. They all had a choice. And they all choice. Trying to say that their choices didn't exist is a fallacy. They have their own beliefs and emotions, and they chose to join her. She didn't say "join me or die". In fact, them joining her will also put them in danger of death. They had the ability to sit the war out or not get involved. Also, Claude didn't give Lysithea a way out only because he's aware of her issues, in that he's giving the choice to survive. But keep in mind that not all the Golden Deer characters even get involved in the war. Marianne is entirely absent in every route, Ignatz only shows up in CF, Raph only in Gronder for AM/VW. Hilda is the only one that stays with them, but Claude definitely wasn't handing out choices, as he was actually expecting Hilda to be a lazy and unmotivated girl to run away, so he didn't expect her to stay till she died. The reason that the BE students all fight to the death in VW/AM if unrecruited is because they do believe in Edelgard and what she is fighting for. No matter how much you wanna demonize things about how Edelgard started a war, the choice to fight in the war was entirely up to the character, which Edelgard always gives a choice. And also, when going about choices, keep in mind that Edelgard's always the one that gives Byleth a choice and respects it. It's why in CF, Byleth firmly states that he chose his path, whereas in the other routes, he's never positive or sure, and is more hesitant than anything.

It becomes a matter of how Petra's own values. In VW/AM, if she stays with Edelgard, Petra puts Edelgard above even Brigid, which shows that Petra values Edelgard as a dear friend and refuses to abandon her. The only thing that makes Petra push to decide to oppose Edelgard is Byleth. Much like many things, everyone has their own reasons, but only Byleth can give everyone the "push" to make the choice to go with fight for or against Edelgard.

Did you not even recall what I said about SS/VW? Even when fighting against Edelgard in the war, Byleth STILL remarks that he doesn't want to kill Edelgard. Also, if you wanna look between the lines, how about this. Byleth saw Edelgard's coronation and knows the horrors that Duke Aegir did, but where Edelgard merely stripped him off his powers when he was at her mercy, rather than killing him, Byleth is seeing Rhea do the opposite when Edelgard is at her mercy. Killing the Emperor of Adrestia is the same as declaring war on Adrestia. You wanna look at this logically, then if you want to save MORE lives, don't kill Edelgard even more. Protecting Edelgard from Rhea is hardly him "justifying" anything of her. No. They 100% don't have to fight. Just as Edelgard does in Crimson Flower, she gives her friends a CHOICE. You're trying to push the idea that Edelgard "strongarms" them into joining her cause, but no, she never does. They join her because they they have their own beliefs and emotions, and they feel that they should fight for Edelgard, but they still had a choice when given. They could have chosen to walk away, but they chose to fight for her because of their own beliefs toward her. You should also see how Petra reacts in the VW/AM where you don't recruit her: You need to step away from the idea that Edelgard "forces" her friends to fight for her. Fact is, no. She doesn't. The key characteristic of Edelgard that no other character gives is the case of choice. AM, VW, and SS, the other characters never really take your choice into account and just expects you to fight with them and take over. Edelgard in both SS and in CF always takes Byleth's choices into accounts and wants to ask if they will stand with them or not.

For someone telling me to be neutral, your words are riddled with bias over being anti-Edelgard. And again, no. The students leaving Edelgard in Silver Snow only shows how they are with Byleth's influence. I mean, look at Ashe and Lorenz, who join the Empire even if you recruit them on certain routes and have to re-recruit them again. They only don't need to be if you are on their house's path. It just shows how Byleth's influence works. So the Black Eagle students aren't all against Edelgard or would be "canonically" at all. And Edelgard has definitely not been lying or making up. There's only been 1 lie she said, and it was regarding Arianrhod. That's the one and ONLY lie she ever made. Everything else goes up to the matter of perspective from how she actually knows more of the truth than 99% of Fodlan does. Since the rest of Fodlan have been fed the many lies of the Chruch. You know, the Church run by Rhea, who has factually falsified history for her own purposes. The writers themselves remark that the history of Fodlan can hardly be trusted because of Rhea. Edelgard's the only one that knew some of the truth, even if it's lacking in certain context. Because when you are holding some of the truth, and then see through the rest of the lies, then the rest comes to your own interpretation. Cause how would Edelgard have learned the entire truth when the people that KNOWS the truth went through great lengths to HIDE the truth?

... Edelgard has lied a total of 1 time in CF. She has not been lying "throughout the entire" route as you are trying to insist on. She really doesn't. Edelgard has hardly lied, or given misdirection about anything. In fact, it's the more the opposite, in that she's been trying to get you to realize what she's trying to do. And now you are trying to say that Edelgard sees them as tools? Dude, I feel you didn't pay a hint of attention to Edelgard if you actually said something like that. What you said is blatantly false. Also, Silver Snow route having the Black Eagles leave is purely cause of Byleth. That's not a case of them "canonically" being someone that would leave Edelgard. It just pushes the case that Byleth is the "god" that basically everyone worships. No different from how every student comes to Garreg Mach purely cause of a reunion promise made five years ago.

It's not even a "lose her trust". You can literally choose not to get involved period. It isn't a case where all choices lead to death. Oppose her, do nothing, or fight for her. Not choosing to fight for her doesn't mean you would be against her. But they have to decide on what they WANT to do. And the BE students are fine with fighting for her, as proven by VW/AM. Yeah, Shamir literally brings up how she's a hostage, and she responds with that she isn't, but is instead the Empire's blade. She values Edelgard and apologizes to her for failing. Dorothea also apologizes too. No, they aren't. Stop trying to say that they are forced to fight against their will. They have every right to refuse to fight, period. They CHOSE to fight, but here you are, trying to insist that it wasn't even an actual choice, when no, it was entirely their own choice. In fact, your use of Silver Snow has the case that they only side against Edelgard because Byleth did. Keep in mind that Byleth is a literal god and everyone praises him to practically worshipping him. Nearly everyone is willing to betray their nation for him. Remove Byleth's influence, and the BE students side with Edelgard of their own will. Even Hanneman and Manuela. Also, here's another thing. Any BE student defeated in Part 1 of Silver Snow route and doesn't join are mentioned by Edelgard to have joined her. So, I'll repeat. Edelgard NEVER forces the BE students to fight for her. You're projecting fallacies onto this. Read the choices again. The choice is "Kill Edelgard" or "Protect Edelgard". The latter isn't him joining her side. It's him defending someone from being killed by Rhea. Rhea was literally going about wanting Edelgard dead, but Byleth is just trying to protect her from being killed. Because Edelgard is still BYleth's student and the BE class's classmate. The fact that it's mentioned even in SS/VW routes when Byleth expresses not wanting to kill Edelgard, it's clear that no one wanted her dead. But Rhea didn't even have that, and went nuts. Everyone left and chose to hear Edelgard out and wanting to know what the hell is going on. They didn't just side with Edelgard just because Byleth did. They sided with her because they also now know the truth of Fodlan.

You're taking things out of context. Caspar is also angry at our side if in VW/AM when we fight him, and even is upset that Byleth and Edelgard didn't come to an understanding. Ferdinand also tells Hubert that it's not even a matter of his own choice, but that they have to do it when Ferdinand fights against Hubert. And a few minutes before, they witnessed the archbishop turning into a lunatic and then into a giant monster and hearing from Edelgard that there have been inhuman creatures controlling Fodlan for generations. Simply put, they learn that everything is a mess and they want clarity. So they talk to Edelgard in CF, and guess what? Edelgard explains. No matter how you try to rationalize it, you have to realize that seeing Rhea turning into a monster is a serious business. Also, Rhea calling Byleth a "failure" makes it less "trusting" and more "controlling". If anything, Rhea's meltdown made them more likely to believe Edelgard's words that Rhea was controlling society for so long. Every student's had issues with Rhea ever since the Lonato incident. Um, sorry, but no. There is dialogue that clearly shows that the students fight of their own will. Not because they are forced to. In fact, if you recruit Petra, she even STATES that Edelgard has always been someone that respects the choices others made, and how even if Petra has to oppose Edelgard, she will respect the choice Petra had made. Her friends didn't HAVE to fight, actually. Edelgard would not have forced them. Hell, in CF, she even warns them that joining her will mean going to war against the Church and other nations. That's just it. Edelgard has ALWAYS been about respecting people's choices. She doesn't force any of her friends to fight for her. They all fight for her because they CHOSE to. You're trying to act like Silver Snow of them siding with Byleth means that they were forced to fight for Edelgard in the other routes, when no, that's nothing of the sort.

That's the funny thing. In the non-CF routes, Fhirdiad's been captured thanks to Cornelia's coup. Annette makes sense to be on the Empire's side during the non-CF routes, but the funny thing is that during CF, her family is with Faerghus still, because Cornelia's coup didn't happen.

Instead he blames the Empire for it. Eh, that's a bit debatable. Cause the thing is, Annette has many reasons NOT to oppose the Church or Faerghus. Her family and other friends live in Fhirdiad, her father is loyal to the Church and Kingdom. Honestly, my friends and I went over it, and out of everyone, Annette has the most reason not to join Edelgard. She might have issues with Rhea, but she seems like someone that doesn't have the most likely to abandon her own family members. It would have made sense if she expressed that she can't come back because she sees Rhea as a monster and she has to put her feelings for her family aside.

I can understand to an extent, and she does need to be pushed to it. However, Chapter 13 of CF has her actually make a resolved statement about wanting to see Edelgard's path through:

Honestly, I would say that Leonie and Alois should be the ones that work any route if it's Byleth. Both stated that they had to protect Byleth, and if they were honoring Jeralt, they would follow him on any side. So even in CF, Leonie would follow Byleth because of her promise. Also, no matter the route, Marianne actually has nothing but admiration for Edelgard, and is even stronger in CF. The funny thing is that Caspar admitted that he is terrified of opposing his father, and never stops being afraid of that. He makes it clear that if his father was leading an attack, they will lose no matter what, despite Byleth being there. Caspar even says he'd rather fight a monster than his father. So I would say that Caspar would have powerful reasons not to oppose the Empire.

I mean, the fact is that Edelgard's war is something that she can't exactly talk about or even explain. How do you explain that the archbishop is a dragon that's been manipulating society for over a thousand years? Who would even believe that? People wouldn't believe that some inhuman creature had been posing as a human in secret and been able to hold control over society for that long. It's why Rhea's reveal was so shocking to everyone when Byleth chose to protect Edelgard. Hell, Byleth wasn't even siding with Edelgard as opposed to just not wanting to kill his student. Rather than try to avoid further bloodshed, Rhea went insane and tried to kill Byleth. Also, the rest of your argument is... very irrelevant. For one thing, apart from how the bandit attack is something that very likely wasn't even meant to kill Dimitri and Claude for various reaasons, no one even knows that the bandit attack was something Edelgard was involved in. You're acting like the characters know about is, but they don't. Also, the reason I disagree with various things is that no Black Eagle is fighting because they are forced to. Edelgard never once forces her friends to fight for her. Hell, even Dorothea, who hates the violence, fought out of her own free will. Petra was argued to be doing this cause she's a hostage, but Petra insists that she's in this because she wants to. And Ferdinand, despite his issues, does hold great admiration for Edelgard and actually is the one with the biggest issues with fighting against Edelgard, and is the most saddened by the Empire's defeat and Edelgard's death. Yes, there is reason to oppose Edelgard. But there's also many reasons to support her still.

Okay, maybe actually consider what I'm saying before going off the tangent. Cause you are 100% misinterpreting my words. The thread talks about how people are willing to betray their factions. Basically betray their nation to join another nation. The question is, WHY would they betray their nations? Examples: Why would Golden Deer students betray the Alliance and go join Faerghus in AM? It makes no sense at all, ESPECIALLY considering that Dimitri is a madman for more than half the story. Why would any of the Blue Lions betray Faerghus and join the Alliance in VW? Cause quite a few wouldn't just abandon their homes and families to join another nation, even if they can be considered allies. In fact, I never even talked about Edelgard being "right" or did "nothing wrong. What I am saying is that CF has the students see Rhea turning into a monster in front of their eyes, and actually get the chance to hear what Edelgard is trying to accomplish. It's reality shattering and something that puts things into perspective. It's why the students in GD and BL classes actually understand that opposing the Church might put them in opposition with their nations, so they really have to contemplate defecting from their homes. And even within CF, not everyone joins the Empire.

Yeah, here's the thing. The Immaculate One is regarded in legend. No one actually thinks that they actually exist. And they absolutely NEVER would have assumed that they would be hiding under the guise of a human. Regardless of how you try to rationalize Rhea's actions, the lady literally LOST it. She literally went to call Byleth a "failure" and then said that she has passed "judgment" and will "rip [Byleth's] chest open" to take his heart. The fact is, Rhea was always scary to the students, but now they see her not only declare something incredibly morbid, and then turning into a giant monster. The ONLY times humans have seen humans turning into monsters before was with Miklan. Humans have seen Demonic Beasts before as well. But humans are now seeing that Rhea was turning into a giant demonic beast. Doesn't matter if they hear about it in legends. In practice, they would be terrified by the sight. And that is why they all were willing to actually hear Edelgard out, and learn what it is she is trying to do. Keep in mind that unlike other routes, where Edelgard never gets the ability to explain, now they are willing to hear her out, and thus make a decision based on what they know. And Edelgard explains that Rhea's been the Immaculate One all this time, and she's been using her powers to manipulate Fodlan. It makes sense why people would take this and consider if she could be right. I wanna point out to how one of the Imperial Soldiers actually expresses the horror of learning what Rhea is: It's a reality breaker. People don't know if the Church is actually as good as it was at all. Rhea has been passing judgments on other humans for so long, but she herself isn't human. Yeah, Byleth is a big factor into this, and even Edelgard and Hubert acknowledge this. But it doesn't change that every student in CF has bigger reasons to be willing to defect from their nation and fight by Edelgard's side. Cause they know that what they are fighting for is bigger than their nation. It's for the kind of cause that determines the fate of mankind itself.

This is why I keep repeating that it makes much more sense for how CF gets the students to be willing to defect to their side, because everyone witnesses the moment Rhea loses it. They see with their own eyes how Rhea turned into a monster, and then learn from Edelgard that a monster has been the archbishop for over a thousand years. It's hard to accept, but they saw the truth. That's why they make the choice to side with Edelgard BEFORE the war officially begins. It makes little sense for any of the Golden Deers to side go to Azure Moon's side at all. Like, why? It's also hard to understand why the Blue Lions would also defect to Verdant Wind's side, too. You could make some reasons why the Black Eagles would defect from the Empire, but you can also make equal arguments why they would stay. I disagree with much of this, but I won't really deconstruct this.

I want to skip this, but... Lucina... Also, Mila's Turnwheel is something many people will want. Competitive Aether Raids would take advantage of an entire turn being given to them.

Actually, not quite. Hector's backstory made him embrace his masculinity to toxic levels. He's a guy that had to be strong and it got to the point that he no longer knew how to cry. Not when his parents died, not when his brother died. It's why he admitted to envying Lyn, because she can cry and he can't, and what made her cry for him from learning of his brother's death. Corrin's personality and wanting to leave his home is a result of his longing for freedom because of how he was always isolated from the outside world. He had good people that took care of him in the forms of Flora, Felicia, and Jackob. I would say that a person's backstory definitely has merit to how one reacts and why one acts as they do.

Oh good, so it isn't just me that finds Ike dull. I do like Chrom though. But this is why I favor Marth since Marth has formed his own ideals and beliefs, and has to always struggle with dealing with it. Honestly, if the devs actually bothered to give his game a proper remake, it'd be way better. But even if all we got is a polished up version of Marth's game, it's still rather decent to give his character actual depth. Alm would be way better as a protag if he was actually how Awakening presented him as. Him being someone that already has all the answers, it makes you wonder what he even means that Celica helps him keep track of things? Celica didn't even stick with him for most of the journey.