omegaxis1

The latter is me. I need another 20k feathers to get Setsuna to the 5*.

Most of the time I upgrade characters to their 4* version so I can get their skills. Its very few times I get the 5* to use them to inherit skills. Recently I got the 5* Gordin so I could transfer Brave Bow+ to Setsuna. Now I have very little feathers.

Well, in my case in theories, one of them is that she either had no more fangs, or no more power to put into the fang. Even if you call it merely a tooth, the powers that Falchion holds is not limited to simply a tooth, as the blade never rusts or ages, can heal you, and somehow able to be tied to a bloodline. Given that Falchion is like the Crusader weapons as stated, its likely that it holds power like the Crusader weapons, meaning that Falchion would actually be similar to the Book of Naga. Given how the power of Falchion never waned over the years and still remains as the weapon that endured the test of time, and at full power can defeat even Grima, I'm holding it above the Book of Naga. Of course, for both of us, its a theory that could be true or false. The only evidence we have to go for ultimately is Awakening's time. Where Falchion's power was simply sealed and could be unlocked to full power, Book of Naga simply continued to weaken over time.

Exactly. Why didn't she make another Falchion for Jugdral? Mila even called it a weapon without equal. No, the opposite. Naga even giving a Falchion to a dragon that could easily use it against her is absurd, especially if she's already predicting the dragons to descend into madness. Unless Naga could predict that Duma would give it to a human? Would she be able to tell that about him? If she wants to protect the people of Valentia and give the humans there a chance, then by all means, giving Duma the Falchion to be intended to be used against him is basically telling Duma, "Here's a weapon that you have to give humans to use to kill you after you go mad." "Sure Naga, I'd just love to have the humans stab my emo laser eye with the sword I could have easily withheld from humans to use." Like I said the entire time, the only reason that this reason of Naga giving the Valentian Falchion is even occurring is because they needed a reason on its existence. However, IS has sadly given a rather retarded reason. How is me explaining that Falchion is the stronger weapon in any way putting FE4 down as a whole? It doesn't. Also, again, let me remind you once again that if Naga put all her power and will into the tome, she would ultimately possess humans just as Loptyr did. It even never stated explicitly that she put ALL her power and will. Just that she did put her power and will. Forseti is different because he did place so much of his will into it as stated that the tome inherited his strong passion. Because if Naga did put all her will and power into the tome, then Julia and other users of the tome would be possessed as well. But none of them ever are. Because as Kaga DID state, Naga disliked interfering with the humans, and the process of even placing her will into the tome was a worrying decision. So no, Kaga never actually said that Naga possessed people in the manner that Loptyr or Forseti did. Her will influences people more, yes, but they never possessed them. Have you forgotten that Medeus is a true Shadow Dragon only at the end of Mystery? He's called a Shadow Dragon by humans. I don't recall if Gotoh ever called him a Shadow Dragon in FE11. Werdna gave a good example of the case: Shadow/Dark Dragons aren't limited to just Earth Dragons, but rather it is a title for all dragons that have their powers corrupted. Duma even in SoV is referred to as a "Dark God" and despite him being a Divine Dragon, shows his figure and form to be darker and more menacing, indicating that his powers are corrupted. If anything, he's also showing to becoming or already become a Shadow Dragon as well. Its not that I hate Loptyr. Its more like I was disappointed with Loptyr overall. Like, in the course of a great story that we've had in Jugdral, we have the final boss, the very dark god that's feared by so much and throughout the story was the product that Manfroy manipulated every event in the game, ends up having no form of personality whatsoever. Don't get me wrong, Grima is bad in that regard as well. But when I look at the overall cases of both their backgrounds, I feel as if its more disappointing to me on Loptyr's case. Couldn't we have had Loptyr's personality show a greater degree in FE4? All we see is that he turned Julius into a cruel and twisted person that wants to make humans suffer. But that's it. For a game that really showed an amazing story, Loptyr was just upsetting as a villain in the end cause he was basically a guy that hates humans just for the sake of hating humans. Naga would need centuries of training to make a physically frail body be any way effective against the Earth Dragons that wiped out humans to the point of extinction. And even if she did train, its less likely that she got out of that war unscathed. Yes. A villager. Given the power of the Deadlords, and the Loptyrians, its obvious why the war dragged on. The Miracle of Darna allowed Heim and the other Crusaders to push back the Loptyrians and then finally make it to Loptyr himself. Loptyr was never put to sleep. In the case of Loptyr, the blood pact is what allowed his soul to live on. So long as someone holds Minor or Major blood of his, he can continue on living. It wasn't a matter that Naga couldn't kill Loptyr here, she failed to kill Loptyr, because Maira and his descendents lived on carrying Loptyr's blood. In the case of Grima though, its hinting that even bloodlines being killed would not end Grima, as Naga states that the only thing that can kill Grima is if Grima were to die by his own hand. I am pretty sure that every case of where someone brings a monstrosity to life from living and dead, that creature always harbors the instinctive desire to kill and destroy. And said destroyer ultimately does destroy the world, twice. One in the original timeline, and the other in the Future Past timeline. Grima even goes as far as to kill Naga, though that's hinting that it isn't that he can't kill Naga, but rather can't kill the role of Naga, since Tiki took over despite how she was physically killed by Grima as well. As for the case of the Earth Dragons, while yes, it is stated that Earth Dragons don't fully die because of their lifespans, given how the war was so devastating, its not beyond the realm of possibility that several Earth Dragons had died, and the remaining ones were put to sleep under the Dragon's Table. You're forgetting that the "shell" is still a degenerated mind. All Earth Dragons apart from Medeus had gone insane. And Medeus also shows signs of being insane, particularly at the end of Mystery, since degeneration still occurs if Manaketes take their dragon forms. So if you use a degenerated dragon's mind, even if its dead or an empty husk of a sleeping dragon, Grima would inherit that degenerated mind that would instinctively harbor destructive thoughts.

Have you never heard of how a dragon's fang is basically the most valuable thing to their power? Not only that, the very fact that the Awakening that unlocks all of Naga's power into the Falchion through the Awakening ritual just proves that Falchion is the superior weapon. If the tome actually held all of Naga's power and will, it would never have had its seal broken and weakened as time went by. Even moreso, the tome would possess the person carrying it if they had the bloodline, just like Loptyr's. While yes, Naga and Forseti's tome do hold the dragons' will in them, it is not to the same extent as Loptyr did. Why do I keep pointing this out? Because Naga doesn't want to possess anyone, and she knows what would happen if all her power was put into it. So her tome didn't hold her entire essence as you try to claim. A drawing of Anri fighting Medeus, right? Yes, and have you forgotten that this drawing is inaccurate as Earth Dragons do not have wings and Medeus did not have wings when facing Marth? That art doesn't prove anything yet again. Actually hold on. Just realized something here. First off, remember that all dragons, not just Divine Dragons, possess vast and incredible magical abilities. In fact, Fire Emblem verse explains that Magic = Technology. Gotoh taught humans how to use magic, but its said that dragons as a whole were able to use magic far beyond human comprehension. So that would mean that even if the dragons are limited in their own power of a single element, the MAGIC they wield are NOT limited to that element. Where's this idea that I hate Jugdral coming from? This is really a big thing you're accusing me of. So I'll make myself abundantly clear. I. Do. Not. Hate. Jugdral. Get it? If not, then you're beyond help. See, here's the thing that's been annoying me. With SoV, its showing that dragons could turn into human form before they became Manaketes. The dragon war with the Earth and Divine Dragons happened after the Divine Dragons already took Manakete forms. However, its been mentioned both story and gameplay wise that Manaketes are VERY delicate and fragile, far weaker than normal humans even. That means that Naga COULDN'T actually fight effectively against the Earth Dragons even with Falchion. Furthermore, we don't even know if the war was where they were in dragon form or using weapons. There was never a full explanation as to how the war was fought completely, because remember that degeneration still plays a factor if they turn into a dragon. Let's see now, with SoV, even though Grima was not even NEAR the level of power that he has 1000 years later and then another 1000 years later, it took the power of Falchion, the "one and only godslayer" weapon to defeat him, and even THAT didn't kill him. Even if its a different Naga, the fact that Naga has so much power that she can bend space-time, would indicate that she's not even considered weaker than the original, and yet she cannot kill Grima, but simply put Grima to sleep. Loptyr struck fear and damage to the continent for years, whereas Grima being around for years brought the entire WORLD to its knees. The very fact that Lucina and the others had to abandon their timeline to go to the past just proves that Grima is impossible to beat otherwise. Given how he was created, its no wonder he wants to destroy. He was literally created as an abomination. He has nothing but destructive urges and desires in his mind. He's a mixture of life and death literally. Its not the same as with Loptyr, who had plenty of common sense and reason as a dragon that lived its life to know that humans did nothing wrong and were just there, but still he decided to hate on them. And for the record, I might find Loptyr petty, but that doesn't mean that I think he's bad per se. Grima's case on the vessel intrigues me. When, how, and why does he need it? Its not explained. Is the alchemist that created him the one that forged the blood pact? We don't know. Given the war, I find it hard to believe that not a single Earth Dragon died in there and they were ALL sealed. There'd have to be some around. And even if there wasn't, there's still at least 1 Earth Dragon body that COULD be used: Medeus. For all we know, the body of Medeus that he has in Shadow Dragon and New Mystery is actually a new one created by Gharnef. I mean, Gharnef was a spirit, but his pupils tried to resurrect his body to put the soul in. So its not out of the range of logic that the body Medeus has in those two games are not his original one. So at least 1-2 Earth Dragon bodies were there to be used.

Very late. Not really in the desire to continue this even. But... eh, why not. Maybe, but she exists, and that's fact, and is now the youngest Manakete that's likely Divine Dragon in origin. Before that was the case. Until we have now learned through retcons in SoV that the degeneration has actually been occurring even before the actual decline of dragons, based on what Mila's saying. SoV had said that Duma could easily have used Falchion against Mila at any time. He just chose not to because that's his sister, which is more out of love, not pride. So the fact is that its not out of the realm of possibility that Naga's fang could have been used against her. My main issue is that Naga's death as you all are going with makes no sense. A war does nothing to her, but a fight with Loptyr does even though it wasn't a direct confrontation? Even the argument that the tome holds more power makes no sense, because if it did, it'd hold all her spirit and will, which would actually take control of people. And it would last forever, not wear off as time goes by, so it'd be a tome version of Falchion, but it isn't. That drawing proves nothing and you know it. And there were no Shadow Dragons because Medeus wasn't even a true Shadow Dragon until the end of Mystery. When has there been a Dragon Tribe aside from Divine and Earth that hasn't been pointless? Bantu is the only significant Fire Dragon, and all the Earth Dragons are dead or sealed. Ice Dragons don't even have named characters in the Archanea series. Please show me word for word in the interview where Kaga specifically mentions that Naga and Loptyr were equal in power. I'm not denying the possibility, but since you're so insistent, show me. Not really. First I realized that the weapon was given so that it would be used against Duma and Mila in the case that they degenerate. Then someone just brought a good point in saying that giving Duma the very weapon that could be used against her is in itself a stupid move, which I am inclined to agree. I mean, come on, the very reason that Duma got kicked out was because he was arguing with Naga. So why would Naga give Duma the weapon that was meant to be used by humans AGAINST Duma? Like, it was to give humans a fighting chance, but the plan could so easily backfire. *flicks* You deserved that. Its ALREADY clear that Grima is stronger than Loptyr. I don't NEED to retcon anything to know that. And better? Loptyr never had ANY form of development. He hardly made any appearance or really talked until the end. All we got out of Loptyr was second hand comments and interviews. Least Grima gives some insight of personality, even if its straightforward. And Loptyr just spited humans cause he couldn't stand that humans were gonna rule over dragons. So he wants to terrorize humans even though at that point in time, the humans did NOTHING against the dragons. Loptyr's hatred of humanity is purely out of irrational jealousy, and hates them just for existing. Least with Medeus, there was reasons. As for Grima, given that we sadly never got his backstory like we got Loptyr's, its unsure. However, from what we have learned in SoV spoilers, he was created through dark alchemy, using dragon corpses, the alchemist's blood, and divine dragon blood. It grew from the size of a thumbnail, yes, I guess to reference that he's somewhat of a draconic homunculus. However, if it was implied in the Knights of Iris that Grima was descended from Earth Dragons, then its likely that the corpses used for the transmutation were Earth Dragon corpses. Now this is where Grima's desire for destruction starts to slowly make sense. Grima is an abomination that was never meant to exist. Created from dead dragons and mixed with living blood. He's in a state of life and death. If those are Earth Dragon corpses, then they are of a dragon of degenerated mind. Now how can Grima do anything BUT desire to destroy at that point? And if its possible that as a thumbnail, Grima was subjected to further experiments and torture, by a human no less, then Grima has all the more reason to despise humanity.

Honestly, the title of "Echoes" never once convinced me that there was some subseries making of remakes at all. Its purely the fact that we even have a Gaiden remake that convinced me of the possibility. Out of all the games, Gaiden feels like the most out of place series compared to other titles, alongside Sacred Stones. Now, not saying it was bad. Its more like how Gaiden never got its own sequel or anything. There was nothing saying the "Valentia series" at all. We have: - Archanea - Jugdral - Elibe - Tellius Magvel and Valentia are the only ones without a series mark to them. Okay, Ylisse and Valm can sort of count as that, but not that much. So seeing how the Japan exclusive of Gaiden is being remade, despite how there's every bit of chance or likelihood of there being a Binding Blade remake, we get Gaiden remake instead. So this just opens up to the large possibility of Echoes being a door for the possibility of there being a remake, but only from its existence, not for a title that has no meaning as of yet. Also, what the other guy said. It makes no sense that we should look so deeply into a title like "Echoes" when there's really no evidence to back it up.

If you're gonna argue about how Loptyr is better just cause its a simple reason that seems logical, then really, Grima is again better, if you just look at Awakening. He loves to destroy humans, and sees them as insects. If he's said to be descended from Earth Dragons, then he's pretty much inherited their prideful nature. With SoV, its likely the dragon corpses were in fact Earth Dragons that were used. Loptyr's hate on humans isn't in any way logical. Its pitiful. If anything, it just makes him just a child that hates to lose games or thinks he's better. Even SoV's Duma, whom Werdna refers to as an edgelord, is already better than Loptyr. I won't deny that Manfroy is better, since he did manipulate events better, and his reasons are legit, as he was persecuted and possibly burned by people because he was part of the Lopto Sect. He has every right to hate them and want them to suffer. However, his stupidity is given at the end, where he didn't have Julia killed like he should have, and pretty much gave Seliph the chance to actually get Julia back and the Book of Naga. Why Grima waited is likely cause he wanted to have history repeat itself, but saved himself as a backup if necessary. Issues with Grima and Validar falls more under how Awakening's plot was just overly rushed overall.

Actually, not really. Loptyr was short sighted and hated humans purely because he couldn't accept that humans would dominate the land. The humans themselves did nothing at that point. They just existed. Hating someone just for existing is very petty. Now Medeus I can understand, but not Loptyr. Both Anankos and Grima have legit reasons too. Anankos hated humans both out of degeneration and because he was betrayed by humans. He helped them all that time, but a single mistake that caused him to destroy a forest that didn't even harm a person, and the humans tried to kill him. Its said in SoV that Grima was created and tortured. However, given that he was created from dragon corpses or dracozombies and then mixed with divine blood, its such an imbalance that Grima likely couldn't think of anything BUT destruction. He was a being existing between life and death in the mortal plane. So if anything, I find that as villains in the case of reasons, Loptyr is the WORST out of them. Its actually MANFORY that's the real villain in FE4. Jahn: They came and attacked this sanctuary. However, the immense power of the weapons clashing with our own power... It caused something none of us had anticipated. Roy: What happened? Jahn: The laws of nature started to collapse. Snow began to fall in summer. Stars shone in the middle of day... Roy: You mean it caused the Ending Winter? I thought it occurred because the dragons released vast amounts of energy... Jahn: Is that how your legends go? Roy: The power of the legendary weapons were used to restore order to nature. That's what I learned. Jahn: So in other words, we were the cause of everything bad that happened. How typical of you humans. But the truth is as I said. As Jahn says, it wasn't just the weapons that caused it, but their clashing with the dragons. Humans just altered it to say it was just dragons that caused it and they were the ones responsible for the mess, and the good guys were purely the humans. "This means that there's no doubt that the Lewyn in the second half is basically the same person as Lewyn in the first half. However, he's given a part of himself to Forseti... And, when the Holy War ends, Forseti actually leaves, but because of the exchange, Lewyn can't live as Lewyn so to speak, and cannot retain his original existence so he cannot go back to Silesse and take the crown. That is why this part is a discordance where the dragon race who had a law to not intervene with the human race did what they are usually not supposed to do--saving a person who was supposed to die." ^ Lewyn was restored to life by Forseti, but in such, Lewyn could never return to who he was. It was his time to die even, but Forseti broke the law and thus Lewyn was revived as half the man in a sense, and even strained his relations with his family. And given that regardless of the pairings, the canonized pairing was with Erinys, that means that both of his children pretty much hate Lewyn now. I think only Ced realized the condition Lewyn was in at the end of Genealogy. Mila and Duma were worshipped to begin with. They're just confirmed to be Divine Dragons now. Retcon, sure. But technically speaking, humans have tended to view dragons as gods in the series many times. Jugdral holds them all as gods, and Duma and Mila are called gods by humans in Gaiden. There wasn't really anyone to give the history lesson of what they were. But of course, its still a retcon since it was never confirmed what they were when the original game was made. IS will have a lot of explaining to do later. Fates, sure. Awakening, nope. I'll say Awakening was more lacking than bad. It was still a good story overall, whereas Fates just fell flat on its face as a story.

Naga was worshipped as a hero, though the humans sort of misinterpreted Naga and believed that Naga was a human, despite how she was a dragon. They also depicted her to have both Falchion and the Shield of Seals, even though we know that the latter was definitely made post-Dragon war, but no certainty on Falchion's time of creation. Not the first time that humans misinterpret things and gets the facts wrong. But yes, the Manaketes were persecuted, but you misunderstood what I was saying. I was saying that if Forseti DID stick around in Jugdral, there would have been consequences that could have caused even worse damage. A god can easily be seen as a devil if a person can simply make people change their perspective. With the power of Forseti controlling the wind, its not unlikely that Forseti could have caused untold devastation and the people see him not as a protector, but a tyrant. The entire reason that Scouring in the Elibe series happened is because the humans feared the overwhelming might of dragons. Also, the catastrophe of the Legendary Weapons in Elibe was 1 factor, as it was said that it was the power of the weapons CLASHING against the power of the dragons that caused it. Massive magical energy colliding can easily be understood to have untold catastrophic consequences. Oh, I think I get what you're saying. Even if its during the time of the golden age, how is it that Mila and Duma aren't rampaging as degenerated dragons if they likely never sealed their powers away as dragons. That part I'm confused as well. I'm still lacking the complete details in the case of SoV, just know the essential info regarding Duma, Mila, and Grima. Grima isn't actually mindless. If anything, the fact that he's able to speak freely as a dragon and not be affected by a degeneration is far more impressive. And the fact that he was created as an experiment of alchemy using dragon corpses and living divine dragon blood, along with the blood of the human that created it. Also, Loptyr didn't give that much of an appearance until the very end, which was when Julius died. But based on what we've gotten, Loptyr had no goal beyond terrorizing humans. Nothing more than that. He just hates humans cause he's self absorbed with pride as an Earth Dragon. Also, while IS hasn't shown good writing ability that much, they had lots of potential and were really good at what they've shown so far, or what they could have shown.

That's just it though. It WASN'T 100% Forseti. It was stated that it was more of a combination of two personas mixed together, as when Lewyn took the Forseti tome, he took in a part of Forseti's will within him. When he died, Forseti took over. How the Valkyrie staff comes to play in this, I don't know, especially given that it was Claud's last, and going by that, Claud'd had to have died for someone else to have gotten it. Or rather, his children should be the ones to have it after his death. Also, if dragons did remain there and were worshipped, it would really have been a matter of time before someone tried to stir trouble up. The entire conflict in the first half of Genealogy was because of humans manipulating events. Just like there, the humans could have cause something that would have done a lot of damage to the dragons in some way. Furthermore, if dragons retaliated, you're essentially bringing what will amount to the Scouring here. Dragons and humans fight against one another in a war. Naga's pragmatic view that humans and dragons were not ready to be together was right in my opinion. Humans WEREN'T ready. When they are so close to power that's right in front of them, its only a matter of time before someone covets the idea of becoming a god themselves. That's part of why I have doubts on FE4 getting a remake. If they remake it, they HAVE to include every plotpoint that made FE4 great. However, given how Shadow Dragon was a huge mistake, they won't make it mostly a copy and paste with some minor edits. Instead we'd have some changes where they'll try to get more in depth with the other dragons, involve some more characters possibly, expand the story if they can, even link it to Grima if you really wanna go there. Why Grima? Simple. The number of parallels between Grima and Loptyr are immense. And given the deadlord things and how that alchemist even found out about these parasites that create Risen, its likely these parasites originated from Jugdral, hence how the Deadlords in FE4/5 were even made. Its a magical seal created to imprison dragons there. You honestly want to ask how thousands of dragons fit in there? Its probably a pocket dimension for all we know, and given how Naga bends space-time, not a strength to believe that's possible. Yes, all dragons can go berserk. But Earth Dragons were the most dangerous, and actually attacked the humans. Where did the Fire and Ice Dragons mostly go? To volcanos and mountains, where humans don't really live in. The Earth Dragons were the only ones that posed the real threat. First off, this apparently happened when it was STILL the Golden Age of dragons, meaning no degeneration even occurred yet. Second, Tiki was only an INFANT and Naga feared the girl's power. Imagine a little girl growing up and being driven insane. She'd be so strong that Naga would be no match for her. Tiki's pretty much been hinted to have powers rivaling, if not surpassing Naga's. So sending Duma and Mila away was actually believable somewhat. I just don't get why she gave Duma Falchion, which is the only thing I find ridiculous.

By the time Levin was possessed, the dragonkind was mostly extinct, so not exactly sure how that's even a comparison. No, we get how the will got transferred, though I do not recall how the Valkyrie staff was involved here. However, the fact that Forseti came out of nowhere in the end despite how he wasn't even related to the plot before suddenly became someone that was guiding the next gen to fight Loptyr. So its not that you were annoyed by Naga doing it, but rather you don't like that the WRITERS made Naga do it. That much I'll agree with. I don't get how giving Duma the Falchion was gonna work, as that could have easily backfired. Dragon tablet? The dragonstone and manakete form were the Dragon elders' idea, not Naga's. Naga just agreed to it. It was the only chance for the dragons to even survive, as there were no other solutions involved. Naga might have loved humans, but she believed that surrendering the dragon rule to mankind was their only option. No dragon wanted their race to face extinction, but it was pretty much likely to happen, but all they could do was prolong their life and wait to see how the world changes. Of course, she and the others would never have foreseen that some dragons were too prideful to ever refuse to such an extent that they'd rather die or become a mindless beast than become human. The thing where the Dragon's Table had all races in it was FE12, and originally in FE3 had only Earth Dragons. Also, given that the Shield of Seals banished only Earth Dragons, its unlikely that the other dragon tribes were sealed there, and they were merely gathered there. Gharnef likely did that for all we know. Cause it was only mentioned that the Earth Dragons were sleeping there, no other dragons. And the Fire Emblem WAS sealed in the Fane of Raman, but then Adrah broke in as a thief and stole it, then became king of Archanea. Falchion was also sealed away, and Gotoh only bestowed it to a human in the time of need, that being Anri. So really, Naga did create and go with stuff to help humans out without directly involving herself. Unfortunately, events took place that were beyond her control.

Not gonna lie. I tend to go overboard at times. XP In that part, the only other race in Archanea are taguel, and they were never introduced until Awakening, despite being said to have existed for a while, and the taguel only became a thing because the Tellius series Laguz were so popular. If we focused on only dragons, the game would be vastly different. So we have to rely on humans. Very few franchises have humans be less relevant to plot. Dragon Ball Z is surprisingly one of those that makes humans mostly irrelevant for the plot, since the main hero Goku, isn't even a human. That's just it. We don't know the true Forseti, nor do we know the true Mila, and nor do we know the true Naga. Naga only appeared in Awakening, and that's debatable on whether its the real her. Mila never showed in Gaiden, not did she even speak really. She was just there as the plot device. Forseti didn't make a true appearance and even when possessing Lewyn, it wasn't a full possession like Loptyr, it was more of a mixture of personalities. Forseti seems to act aloof as Lewyn with Lewyn's family, but I think its more that Forseti cannot handle the emotions in regards to the family because he wasn't truly Lewyn. All we have to go for is Kaga's word on how Forseti is, and its pretty much him saying that his 'youth' as a dragon made him far more passionate for humans than the other dragons. To be honest, the Forseti tome doing the same thing on Lewyn despite Lewyn dying is also in a way of a deus ex machina. And he didn't exactly get the job done perfectly, since he made many leaps of faith and had Seliph try to become strong mostly on his own. Forseti for the most part only acted as a guide, but never steered Seliph. Look what happened when Mila and Duma got involved with humanity. The entire issue where one country becomes tyrannical, and the other becomes lazy. Forseti taking over Lewyn made him so cold and indifferent even towards Lewyn's own family and unable to bond with them. Forseti knew he just ruined an innocent man's ties to his family. While sure he helped bring a terrible war to an end, what he did was still cruel. Naga's viewpoint likely was this: because humans and dragons have lived so far apart in views and powers, where dragons can use magic beyond human's wildest imaginations, trying to involve themselves with humanity is rushing humans before they can truly learn and develop. She was likely believing that dragons and humans couldn't truly live together in peace yet, and she was right, the very fact that humans grew prejudiced towards Manaketes. However, she still did hold love towards humanity, given that she considered killing her own daughter Tiki out of fear that a degenerated Tiki would result in the extinction of humanity. Naga loved humans, but she was realistic in a sense that dragons and humans coexisting before humanity was ready was a bad idea, and she was right. I'm STILL trying to understand why Duma was banished. It was Duma that was banished and Mila merely followed suit. Also, you're describing her as downright cruel and evil here. She sealed the Earth Dragons cause there was no choice. They were degenerated and they had to be stopped. It was likely impossible to kill them all, so sealing them was the next best choice. And again, I personally prefer how Mila and Duma are portrayed. Now they aren't so out of place and it really ties in with other stories and doesn't seem out of place that much, and we get a better understanding of them, rather than see them as one dimensional. Least we see now that both Duma and Mila had complication, but they had the best interests in mind, but were just too extreme in their views. Which makes me understand that Naga wasn't wrong in her views on humans and dragons.

Cause that's how debates are. And why I like them. Its really fun. As long as it doesn't get so bad that we start insulting one another. I dunno. I kind of like that Mila got a real personality now. We never actually saw the extent of how her side of things were bad, exactly how lazy the Zofia was becoming, and how misguided she was herself. Thing was, it was mentioned that Naga didn't like to meddle in the affairs of humans. Now that we see Mila and Duma being Divine Dragons and wanting to help them directly through their extreme views, we're seeing that Naga had a point in wanting to avoid meddling in the lives of humans. Mila was kind to a fault. In fact, we see her flaws that she couldn't acknowledge humans as being able to overcome struggles and such, and should instead forever live in luxury, but this made humans unable to work hard, and forever dependent on her. And Mila wasn't the first one to love humanity a great deal. FE4's Forseti was stated to love humans a great deal that had he the choice, he'd have remained in Jugdral as their protector. If he remained there, who knows how things would have gotten for Jugdral.

I never said that Duma and Mila being said to be dragons instead of gods wasn't a retcon, cause it was. I'm saying that I prefer this retcon more cause it just sort of fits better with how the lore in the world of Archanea functions, where gods are just powerful dragons. Also... I also forgot the point of the discussion. It was about something regarding why Duma and Mila are Divine Dragons now, and then something else happened and yada yada. Eh, either way, that was one helluva fun ride. XD

Given how Awakening takes place 2000 years after Marth's time, its not completely unlikely. Awakening is the one and only game we actually SEE Naga, and there's still questions on whether that's actually her.

I believe what caused that was sealing Tiki away. It was the last thing that's said she did.

Again, the word transfer is just how it was translated, but that doesn't mean that that was the intended word to be used. Furthermore, AGAIN, just as you have been REPEATEDLY saying, KAGA NEVER MENTIONED IT. He never once mentioned that this 'transfer' is any way harmful to the dragons that could cripple and/or kill them. In fact, its even going by how it DOESN'T harm them, as Forseti and Naga are fine and Forseti, despite doing this 'transfer of power ad will', it was stated that he wanted to remain in Jugdral physically to protect them, but was convinced by Naga otherwise. To things. First, no, he doesn't look like Medeus. We literally see that Loptyr has a serpentine body. Medeus has a western dragon body with wings and arms and legs. And once again, rather than be referred to as a Shadow/Dark Dragon like Medeus is, Loptyr is always called an EARTH Dragon. Kaga himself calls Loptyr that. Second, you leave my fanfics out of this. XP Look below. THANK YOU!

Transfer does not mean that it would cripple them, nor was there ever mention as you love to say, Kaga never said that it would damage the dragon themselves. Nor did Kaga ever say that doing this ever harmed Naga either. That's nothing more than a fan-based theory. There was never any guaranteed proof that Loptyr was in fact a Shadow Dragon. People only claim he was because he had a darker appearance, but all interview questions says that he's an Earth Dragon. Not an Earth Dragon that evolved. Because Xane's referral to the ENTIRE Divine Dragon race already acts as my evidence. "It's a dragon graveyard in the mountains of Macedon. There, the earth dragons sleep. A long time ago... Thousands of years ago in fact... The mighty earth dragons lost their minds and attacked the humans. 'Course, the humans barely stood a chance. Most were annihilated, and the rest pushed into the desolate corners of the continent. And then... the divine dragon Naga, strongest of them all, waged a war for humanity. It was a fierce battle, but Naga emerged victorious in the end, and sealed the earth dragons below Dolhr, in a deep sleep. And so that the power of the seal would not wither, she created the "shield of the five orbs" and placed it in the Fane of Raman. " "Naga took pity on you humans, with no way of protecting yourselves, so she created it from one of her fangs. Then, together with the shield, she sealed it in the fane, and had the remainin' dragon houses watch over humanity. She put the newly born Tiki to sleep and thus ended her 5,000-year life. 'Cause of all this, Gotoh's tryin' his best to carry out Naga's order." There you go. These lines are already acts as my evidence that refers to a battle that Naga struggled through. If Naga was not injured in the slightest, then there's no point in calling this a "fierce" war. Also, look at how its said that she sealed them away, and that to make sure the seal doesn't wither, she had the Shield of Seals forged with the Five Orbs. Think clearly here. Why would she consider the seal to not hold? Because if she made the seal, then her power is necessary to hold the seal, and it can't if her power dies out, and that's only if she dies. Meaning that she WAS suffering from that. Furthermore, the very Shield of Seals is said to utilize Naga's powers, hence why the seal on the dragons hold. That means that forging this artifact of great power would mean that Naga had to have transferred a lot of her power to last through an eternity for the dragons. Xane's FE12 explanation pretty much supports my theories far more than your theory that it was only the Lpotyr fight that got her life.

There we go. Loptyr's CLAN. Meaning NOT Loptyr himself. This is referring to the entire Earth Dragons, rather than just Loptyr himself. This statement means that there is still no direct mention that Loptyr is actually unique to the Earth Dragons. He's powerful, yes, but Forseti mentioned nothing regarding Loptyr himself over that he's stronger than the power of the other dragons that lent power to humans. Now look who's making shit up. There was absolutely NO mention of creating a tome that possessed your power or will to actually cause damage the person creating it. The idea that it does something to the dragons themselves is what I said in my theory. So if you're gonna take my theory into context, you gotta take them all. And that's just it. Not mentioning Loptyr by Xane means that he held no real role in the Earth Dragons or Naga's part just shows how irrelevant he was to Naga's history if even the remake made no mention. So your attempt to justify that it was the fight with Loptyr that crippled Naga is actually less likely than my theory that it was the war that did it. Also, how is it that Xane referring to the entire Divine Dragon tribe as a race not somehow including Naga, who is still a Divine Dragon? The very fact that Xane refers to the tribe as a whole already justifies my theory that Naga had suffered. Furthermore, going by how the Earth Dragons are being referred to as a tribe so strong that it can rival the Divine Dragons and the fact that they ultimately outlive the Divine Dragons is more a testament that the Earth Dragons CAN have wounded Naga's physical body to a great degree, especially since there were a lot. So its actually the reverse here. There's no reason to believe that Loptyr caused Naga to ultimately die or had the major factor over the entire dragon war.

What evidence to the contrary? Your mention of saying there's evidence saying that Naga wasn't injured is that Kaga simply never mentioned it. That isn't even evidence to anything. Also, stop misunderstanding something. It's not my intention to downgrade Naga or Loptyr here by saying they weren't equals. My intention is to make sense on Naga's death overall. Furthermore, Forseti merely never said that Loptyr was the most powerful Earth Dragon or even far stronger than any other Earth Dragon. Of course, when Forseti mentioned that Loptyr possessed the diabolical power of the tribe, its most likely he's referring to the possibility that Loptyr became a Dark Dragon. And even if Naga was the strongest Divine Dragon does not mean in any way that the war would not have held the slightest bit of an effect against her. Strongest does not equal invincible. Furthermore, when Xane was describing the war with the Earth Dragons, Loptyr was never mentioned. However, what he mentions is that after the war, the Divine Dragons died out, and then Naga's life came to an end after sealing the sword. If anything, that's pretty much Xane implying that Naga DID suffer from the war and that the wounds caused from that ultimately damaged her life span and caused her to die later on. Even in FE12, the very remake of FE3, Loptyr still goes unmentioned, meaning that Xane is STILL implying that it was really the war that ultimately killed her.

Actually, hold on. We're actually now mixing up a lot of information here. First off, Falchion was always made and designed for the sole purpose of giving HUMANS the ability to fight and defeat Dragons. Just because we hear right now that the Valentian Falchion was made before the Earth Dragon war does not even hint the idea that there was another Falchion for Archanea. Naga herself never needed the weapon to defeat other dragons. Furthermore, while degeneration was a danger to the dragons, we are actually understanding that even despite using their dragon powers, it doesn't mean they will always succumb to degeneration. In fact, Loptyr is actually a perfectly good example that not all Earth Dragons did succumb to degeneration. Loptyr had to have been able to think clearly to understand that the war with the Divine Dragon was futile, and even formulated a plan to spread his chaos further on the humans. So in a sense, that would support the idea that Naga herself can avoid degenerating even when using her dragon powers in the war. The power of Falchion only works to defeat dragons because the Falchion is from Naga's fang, who is a Divine Dragon, and thus has the power to fight with the ferocity of a Divine Dragon. Naga forged one Falchion and gave it to Duma and Mila, which from what someone mentioned, was meant so that the humans in Valentia would be able to use it against them if the need arose. When the war with the Earth Dragons happened, for Naga to assume manakete form to fight with another Falchion is unlikely, because again, Manaketes are known to have sealed so much power off with the dragonstone that the physical bodies they now have are very weak and fragile, and are even vulnerable to die by conventional means. So Naga would have to use her dragon powers to fight the Earth Dragons along with the others. If Naga was said to have fought with Falchion, then Xane would have mentioned it when recapping about the war, but all that was said about the Falchion is that it was simply made to give humans a fighting chance. So if never there was mention of Naga forging it during the war or just before the war with the Earth Dragons that she used it, then its unlikely that it happened, and its actually MORE likely that it was made after. However, the war was said time and time again to have been brutal and that the Divine Dragons died or used so much power that they lost the ability to take dragon form. Naga might not, but she HAD to have suffered from the war. Okay, maybe its possible that she could have recovered enough for the 200 years after the war, and was jsut learning about Loptyr, but if she was still mostly considered recently recovered, then even if she can use all her power, the act would just harm her life force more. Meaning if she channeled her power into her tome to give to Heim, placing some of her will and her power into it to combat Loptyr, the strain of putting her power despite recovering just recently affects her physical body all the more. So in terms of power, Loptyr and Naga are equals. Especially if we go with the theory that Loptyr's malevolence had allowed him to evolve to a Dark Dragon as well. However, I'm still holding true that Naga's physical condition was still dire and that the act just further weakened her condition, and then it took all she had to seal Tiki off.

Thank you. Because of this, you have basically confirmed that there were absolutely NO confirmation that Naga had or even used the Falchion during the Earth Dragon war with the Earth Dragons, and that its shown in this very timeline you're showing me, that the sword and the shield of seals are referred to being sealed in the same year after the Earth Dragons were defeated. As for connecting the timeline, we could use this: https://fireemblemwiki.org/Timeline_of_Archanea,_Valentia_and_Jugdral Well, there are a few possible reasons why. Given how its said most of the Divine Dragons went extinct or exhausted there power, its unlikely they could even forge weapons for the Jugdral as they would have no power to. There were no confirmation about Forseti's tribe, but we heard that Naga was the "god of light" and Salamand was the "god of fire" so it can be inferred that Naga was Divine (which is true) and Salamand was Fire. In which case, its arguable that they weren't all comprised of Divine Dragons, maybe a few at best, but not 12 Divine Dragons.

Well, I do ship Kris x Katarina. XD But aside from that, Kris is pretty much canon, but doesn't exist in the history purely because he didn't want it. Of course, this pisses others off cause of how that hurt Marth's character and in a sense made Kris seem to be this amazing person that's just as great as Marth. I won't argue so much into what you said regarding no one caring about establishing new stuff into old games, because in a sense, you're absolutely right. They did establish a lot of stuff in those games that there doesn't need to be so much need to tie loose ends. If we're talking about Awakening or Fates, then there's MUCH that needs establishing, since both have issues with missing specific details, especially Fates, since Awakening at least stands well enough on its own. But remakes will always have retcons and if Echoes does well, which I'm almost certain it will, they will consider remaking other games too. Sure, I won't have that much faith in that belief that the old and new fans will all get along, because lets face it, it will never happen. Bunch of old fans will continue to hate the new, and new fans will retaliate and hate the old.

Actually, there are still a few things I want explained in FE4. Like for one thing what happened to Loptyr's body. Then about why Heim never thought about taking the Loptyr tome from Galle XVII after killing him, since he should know that the tome still housed Loptyr's will, so it should have been confined. Then explaining the fates of all the characters in Bellhalla rather than leaving it very vague. Then maybe explain exactly who Forseti is in story rather than rely on an interview. And for that matter, if Forseti possessed Lewyn by the 2nd half, what happened to the actual Forseti, like his actual body. Also, did Lewyn actually mention the war between the Divine and Earth Dragons to Seliph? No, probably not. Just the Miracle of Darna. And if we ever get a second remake of Shadow Dragon, maybe make it like the original Mystery of the Emblem, as Book 1 is Shadow Dragon and Book 2 is Mystery. And maybe adjust the role of Kris so he doesn't basically feel the center of the characters, cause he really hurt Marth's development as a character there, though I did enjoy the thing with Katarina and Kris. XP And if they do remake it, at least explain more about the dragon war and maybe actually talk about Loptyr there. Original I can understand, but why never involve the Genealogy or Loptyr for the remake? Seemed like a good idea to mention it there, since we just explained the war with the earth dragons, then say Naga died, even though at least 200 years passed and Naga fought Loptyr, and then died after enshrining the Shield of Seals and Falchion. Of course, this makes me wonder if FE4 will possibly try to do something crazy like say that Robin's ancestor is actually Arvis through his illegitimate son Saias, and Grima is actually Loptyr. That'd be weird.