Seazas

You mentioned that Conrad is "more legitimate", he's not. Celica is just as legitimate, she has the hyped up brand and is just as much of a royal. She's Lima's child too and has a place on the throne. Moreso when Conrad puts everything on her shoulders in front of everyone and Celica actively cared about helping her people, Conrad did not. This is literally the most worthless thing to complain about. "How DARE they not force some drama with a character who already placed importance onto Celica! Bad writing!!11" The story was never about "who gets the throne" lmao.

It's offensive because a random character steals Marth's achievements. There is no character stealing Alm's achievements, anything with Lukas and Clive are made up achievements that wasn't in Gaiden to flesh them out as characters. Alm having cut dialogue is far different from Kris being the one to say strategies instead of someone who's SEEN a war like Marth.

You've proven that you're not really listening, you write it off as "weak attempts at justifying bias" when Echoes and New Mystery are completely different games, stories and situations. You used one example that doesn't cover all of Kris' flaws and problems and still use that to assume I'd be fine if any other character had Kris' role. Fuck no I would not, especially to actively undermine EVERY story scene to center around that character and force Marth to act weird and push them over everyone else. Especially making characters like Elice act off for the sake of putting Kris on a pedestal. Hell, that example you brought up... There WAS no character stealing Alm's lines or turning the scene to praise some unrelated character. No, it was just cut dialogue for consistency in the current story's events.

Again, Conrad is not more worthy. He relinquished his position in front of the people who would potentially ask him on Celica's route. Celica has the crown and brand, the only one who would be mildly curious where Conrad fits in things (Berkut and Clive) are not present in her route. Conrad's entire mission was centered around Celica and encouraged her to rule and lead over him. It's not an important detail and it's something that would only be mentioned long after the game's intentional story is over and done with.

It's just... people trying to make it out to be a flaw of Echoes' writing for not focusing on a disposable side character who already put importance in Celica over himself irks me. Anything with Conrad's future position is stuff unrelated to the current story. It's like shitting on Shadow Dragon for not focusing on "how Marth rebuilds Archanea" over the actual story of Marth taking back his kingdom and stopping Gharnef. Or giving guff to Genealogy for not dedicating scenes of Seliph's rule AFTER the war was already finished.

He is not more legitimate, he does not have the brand and did not engage on this topic. No one on Celica's side gives a shit about Conrad and already accepted Celica as their ruler. Celica is more worthy for reasons I have elaborated on. Especially when, by default, she's more worthy when Conrad actively relinquishes it and the only ones who would care to have a potential discussion about Conrad's position (Clive or Berkut) are not present in Celica's route. The game's story is not about who gets the throne, it was focusing on matters that Gaiden primarily centered around and anything with Conrad would be a discussion long after the story Gaiden wanted to tell. No, Mae and Boey would not talk about it. They are commoners that just wanted to get Mila and protect Celica, they express as such. Long accepting her as the one to lead them thanks to CONRAD's coronation. It's just dumb to complain that a story didn't focus on something it never intended to focus on, especially when Alm and Celica were consistently made both in and out of game to be more important. Nothing but an iffy nitpick.

Your opinion falls flat, you just jumped to conclusions to push shit that isn't true. Alm is a fundamentally different character from Marth, you used one example at a desperate attempt of a "gotcha" moment and when I explain otherwise you cover your ears and ignore it. I do not blindly hate avatars or I would've never argued in Byleth's favor or like Robin as much as I do. Kris' role is pure shit, I would not be lenient on anyone else and there IS no similar case to Kris.

But there wasn't so that's entirely hypothetical. Especially assuming if Conrad wouldn't just reject the Deliverance like Mycen did lmao. Conrad from what we see only ever has interest in protecting Celica. If he cared for the affairs he would've ran out and started doing stuff long before Celica came out of hiding. Alm proved himself worthy and thus the cast turned to him, end of story. They don't even see Conrad until the game's long over with. Meaning that discussion is literally impossible to have, that's like expecting Shadow Dragon to explore how Marth rebuilt his kingdom and handled things as a whole after the story has been told. Nope, I see your argument and it doesn't work. Conrad did less, influenced 10x less people, did not lead, did not wear the crown, does not have the brand, etc. Celica is the polar opposite and Conrad is aware of how capable she is. He would be acting different if she wasn't capable. It's "not noticed" because the story's plot and events center around issues unrelated to Conrad. Especially when Celica is far more indisputable, legal and actively embracing it while Conrad does nothing but humbly protects her. All of the characters are either irrelevant in Fire Emblem tradition or don't really think about shit with the throne. Especially when Celica's side long accepted her as the one to "ascend to the throne".

You mean how you pushed your conclusion all over again and forced me to re-explain only for you to ignore and force me to jump through hoops anyway? Because it's so fucking obvious that I hate Kris for reasons that I would hate other characters for if they repeated every single one of Kris' problems. -Uninteresting character -Shoehorned in established scenes while adding nothing outside of making scenes now center around the character for no good reason -"Ohhh you're so perfect and strong and cool and unique and quirky and kind and-" -Undermines the lord in a way that doesn't make sense.

Alm is considered king because he's a major reason why they take back the castle and serves as a charismatic leader. It's not only because there's "no other options". If Alm wasn't suitable, Clive would've took the mantle or never mention Alm being fitting as king. Celica already proved to be a fantastic leader and the one wearing the crown CONRAD provided. She also has a brand, which is hyped up in Valentian culture with years upon years of precedent importance in the official timeline. No one's going to question it when Celica and Alm were already accepted by their respective sides, even foes like Berkut say Alm is king and Jedah makes importance of Celica and her brand, not Conrad. The game consistently places value in the two main leads with Conrad himself long placing the crown on Celica and believing she can save them. The people put importance on Celica and what she's done for them, they would not cast her aside at that point just because Conrad's a man, he did nothing for them and only got out of hiding for Celica. Conrad did not fight of the pirates, Conrad did not try and free Est, Conrad never wore the crown. This shit is not as important as you're trying to push it to be nor does the game need to force some scene of asking that question when that would "potentially" happen after the game events are done with (as saving Mila took priority) and Valentia gets fully unified and put together.

Repeating yourself does not make your point good. They do not do the same thing at all, elevating a character is fine but Kris took it too far. Echoes does not have a character like Kris and the way they were implemented. Kris is inherently forced and poorly written.

Alm does take initiative in plenty of Echoes' scenes, some of them being entirely new. He's the one who chooses to join the Deliverance even when his friends shout "Alm are you crazy!?", he uses his words and actions to eventually win over Clive. What about his great dialogue sequence with Mycen or when he encourages to march on Rigel? He also takes on Berkut and shouts at him when Berkut starts to ramble about the brand: "why do you care, are you ready to fight or not!?" and he even says to Tatiana that no one's an enemy of him as long as they don't meet on the battlefield. Some insightful stuff. He has some really good scenes in Echoes and he's about the same character from Gaiden. Alm being "aggressive" isn't the case, he shows to be a competent warrior like Echoes' Alm... But Gaiden Alm shows thoughtfulness, cries over Rudolf too, and is the one essentially being rational in his and Celica's argument while Celica storms off. If it was supposed to be Alm entirely being aggressive... Why wasn't he the one being snappy at Celica first rather than the other way around? Alm never gets snappy in that exchange either... He just says "that's mean Celica!" lol. Alm not being made to do everything is really good, it's consistent with his character especially when he's never seen the outside world (unlike Marth who's had a normal upbringing and fought an entire war before New Mystery).

They never did the same thing, they didn't place any of Echoes' characters on a pedestal to be Alm or Celica's "other half". None of Echoes' characters steal Alm's specific scenes where he shines as a character. Echoes even gives Alm new ones that he overbearingly shines in, same for Celica. There was no Kris case in Gaiden nor Echoes. You make no fucking sense, Jotari. If Luke was relevant in a good way? Sure. Kris' way? Hell no.

Alm is still treated as the future king, with both Luthier and Clive making it clear that he's fit for the position. Alm may feel differently but it explains why other characters do not turn to Conrad, they already see someone fit and that's Alm (or Celica). Also, no, I'm saying that if Alm and Celica were to hypothetically disagree on the Unification of Valentia, it's up in the air what Alm would've done if he found out about his ties to Rigel earlier. Actually read what I say, I did not say Alm being the king is up in the air lmao. It doesn't matter and stops being worthwhile when Conrad already relinquishes his position to Celica instead and she outshines him. Conrad himself placing Celica as their hope, it's not hard to comprehend. Especially with how hard Valentia places value in brands, her claim is superior.

And if you applied what I said, it's made clear that I dislike Kris for being poorly implemented in a story that clearly doesn't fit them. The amount of favoritism they get with minimal things justifying that is annoying. If Luke got the same treatment I would dislike him too since they turned an established character into some weird overpowered insert. The Archanea story does not fit Kris. Kris, Katarina, the other Assassins and Kris' grandfather would've been better and more explored if they were featured in their own game.

Fernand abandoned his kingdom, and even Fernand berates Clive for making "a boy you don't know from a gutter rat" king in their exchange within Chapter 3. So yes, Alm is undoubtedly the one being placed as future ruler of Zofia and then Rigel. Whether or not Alm would've accepted Zofia or give it to Celica is up in the air. There's more leaning toward the latter since Alm was willing to step down if the princess came in his stead. Ultimately, it does not matter as Alm performs a unification of Zofia and Rigel, with Celica by his side as his wife. Simple. Conrad believing Celica is more fit to rule than Conrad, proving my point that no one was trying to make Conrad king nor see any reason to. Both Celica and Alm were potential rulers. Conrad stayed back and instead put his faith in his sister while everyone put faith in either Alm or Celica.

I already told you that I wouldn't, I even said and made clear constantly that I hate Kris for being forced in an established story. Now how about you stop making stupid assumptions? Because that's all you're doing. Kris' role is inherently bad and being tied into Marth's "soulmate" makes no sense. It would never make sense even if it was another character was in Kris' place. I made that clear when you tried to bring up Luke. And again, there is no Kris case in Echoes, there IS no character stealing Alm's glory or scenes. Alm does a lot more than what he does in Gaiden and there is no Kris that Alm rapidly turns to or credits for his achievements. No one is forced into being the main character's "other half", unlike Kris who only got it because they're an avatar and "need" to be the center of Archanea. Your comparison fell flat and your "goalpost" buzzwords are complete nonsense. If all you're going to do is push a point that I already explained constantly, then you might as well stop replying to me. Because that shit's obnoxious and purposefully ignorant to what I say. It's so irritating.

Alm is undisputed king by those on his side, thus no "qualms" with Conrad or Celica, not like it was a priority since defeating Duma took priority. Celica receiving the coronation by Conrad serves for her arc and answers why Conrad never pursued the throne: him preferring Celica instead of him. It eventually lines up since Alm and Celica marry and rule together. Both potential rulers that probably would've ruled Rigel and Zofia separately (Alm willingly giving Zofia to Celica going off what he says in their argument in Chapter 2) if they disagreed, but they don't.

Nope, you clearly didn't pay attention if you're still wrongly accusing me that I'd be fine with any character being in a role of Kris. I already debunked that bullshit when we talked about Luke, Kris' role inherently doesn't work since the narrative was crafted without Kris. And their character would've went better with a game that actually accounts for that character. Rather than forcing Kris in as an avatar and getting undeserved special treatment purely because they're an avatar. They even leave some things for Kris that would've went explored if they weren't a tacked on afterthought in New Mystery.

I forgot about that, so my point holds up after all.

Oh boy, here we go with the handcanon that Alm was actually SUPER hard and AGGRESSIVE when that doesn't exist in Gaiden. He's shown talking more rationally than Celica and being open minded for the most part. The "crush these bastards" crap is not an accurate translation and Alm does not hesitate with his enemies in Echoes. He even shows his view on it with Tatiana: "you're no enemy of mine unless we see each other on the battlefield". People who believe that nonsense- still is under the rose-tinted glasses of Awakening Alm. Still, it does not apply to this talk and Alm's accuracy is held up to a fault, more than Marth's anyway. In your dreams, Jegan is Marth's advisor, not Kris. Kris is supposed to be the bodyguard going off what FE12 itself put with Kris. Lukas doesn't get pandered either, I already fucking TOLD YOU that I don't want ANY character with the terrible role of Kris. God damn is like you ignored what I said earlier to try and bash me. Just stop already if you're not going to bother to understand what I put. Didn't say it 100% would, I made it painfully clear that a Krisless game would be better since there's no forced avatar in a story that doesn't work with them. Kris is ill suited for FE12.

Alm is said to be the next king before the ending, further locked down when he's the prince of Rigel and left with both kingdoms to unify it. And you say there is no explanations but there is, they tie into his personality and fondness of Celica. It's really not hard to get, Jotari. Come on, He makes it clear by doing the coronation and not having any sort of dialogue where he's in opposition of the current rulers. He prefers Celica to rule, which lines up with his actions and what he says to her.

There is a canon reason, Alm is the king. Stated by the game's characters multiple times even after his revealed relations to Rigel. It's said through Berkut that Alm not only gets Zofia under his belt but now Rigel. Another reason is Conrad wanting Celica to ascend the throne out of faith for her, you just don't accept it. Conrad isn't a coward, he just doesn't want it. Instead he trusts Celica to handle it better which is fair as she always did far more than him. No one questions the decision since everyone's already on board with Alm and Celica, there is no questioning to be had.

Which is what Alm does time and again. With Echoes dedicated entire new scenes, in that same cutscene they had Alm take on Fernand and Berkut by his lonesome, therefore keeping the accuracy of what Alm is supposed to be: incredible in battle with some tactics, but he didn't have a prior war to refine them like Marth did. The comparison just doesn't hold up. Nah, it's definitely forced avatar worship because Maeda sucks at writing avatars. It's what happens since players get an extra amount of praise and avatars are weirdly written most of the time. Lukas has more experience than Alm, his canon role justifies it too. Lukas was an advisor of Clive's in both the DLC and in the main game, so trusted that Lukas was given the responsibility of plucking the legendary war hero for the sake of the Deliverance (Mycen). Kris does not have more experience than Marth and Kris' character is supposed to be a soldier that's good at fighting, so have Kris do that and not barge in the story when it isn't necessary. You tried to argue that without Kris things could be worse or not change at all, when you're not the developer and all of the resources have to go somewhere.

There is no hole in the story, not perfect by any means but a random nitpick is not a gaping hole just because you don't like the canon reason. Celica also has inheritance and takes priority by not only marrying Alm who caused the unification to begin with, Conrad did the coronation. Nope, you made the claim of feudal inheritance, show me the proof of said inheritance. Because this is a fantasy game that doesn't take that kind of thing seriously, FE never really does and slaps it as an afterthought. They never go into depth about this and don't need to. Having literal immortal gods that also run Valentia changes a lot about the system by default. Clearly FE does not run standard stuff or Elice would be queen due to being the elder (and has a love interest herself in the form of Merric), while Marth is the younger one. Conrad's character has it be that way, he's still as humble and shy as he's always been with his "masked variant" being a façade. Him gassing up Celica and saying for her to ascend the throne tells it all for us. Literally just use context clues the game lays in front of you. Conrad is not king because Alm and Celica naturally take priority for actually doing things for the people + Conrad willingly stepping down to begin with. Celica received the crown by no one else but Conrad.