Seazas

They all get a 1/10. I could care less about them, too disconnected for my taste and I don't get any value from seeing them be involved unlike Monica.

The wolves are definitely being DLC. They are afterthoughts.

I know this is late and all, but thanks for the feature. This is very charming.

I could see the remake focusing on the crippling pressure Seliph feels from being placed on a massive pedestal. It appears that Heroes did something like that.

Celica and Lyn weren't chosen by Koei, they were shoved in by Intsys. Koei specifically has a history with their roster. They didn't push any general Zelda characters in AOC despite easily having the option to. They're firmly focused on Three Houses, so we're definitely getting THs' characters as DLC. We'll get DLC, but the mainline games have zero bearing on Koei and their choices. Three Houses is a money maker and Three Hopes is all about Three Houses.

You say that and how I'm wrong for firmly disagreeing with your point of view only to immediately try and reinforce your own personal claims that you're sticking to yourself, "nothing changed about Alm despite the evidence". You can't claim shit like that only to do a similar thing I'm supposedly doing. I also used things from the game yet just like me... you still stick to what you believe. Your evidence isn't any different, Alm blatantly has structure and ideas that shares far too many similarities with SOV. There is no evidence that suggests Alm was never invincible and a not standard good-hearted hero. He directly says that he wants to help people and his views on Rudolf and the like is 1 for 1 with SOV. He literally ran off into war against his grandfathers wishes out of a desire to save Zofia and the innocent people in it since no one else will. That is standard heroism 101. Gaiden and the structure of the game for Alm is something that SOV did little to alter. Him apparently speaking a little differently didn't change that everything went Alm's way to a T and how he has a very similar view to things Echoes followed up on. Gaiden literally made up a birthmark so Alm could recruit the Camus archetype of the game, acting like a lot of the stuff SOV did with Alm not exist in any capacity in Gaiden is just not true.

I'm only "starting something" because you're shit talking me, Jotari. I said nothing to you nor about you only for you to proceed to talk negative over a disagreement we had a while ago. It can be fruitful. I can and will make fine points, your evidence in whatever other discussion we had... something something Gaiden and SOV simply did not change my point of view. I read it myself and there were still plenty of room for the interpretation SOV goes with while still being faithful. Also, it not being on topic is just wrong. A huge point of this title is an idea that Sigurd is an Alm and that the remake did something to Alm that runs the risk of it happening to Sigurd. Which I heavily disagree with and isn't representing about how things actually are. There's nothing derailed there when it's related to the topic and beliefs the original thread creator was posting. It still correlates to FE4 too. If there wasn't a massive change with Alm, there wouldn't be a massive change with Sigurd and his remake.

What were you hoping to achieve by responding to another person about me? Since you're going to take shots at me for making any sort of point in a thread, of course I'm going to respond to you. The point I made was perfectly fair and you attempting to dismiss it and any sort of discussion is wack.

Sure buddy, no amount of "evidence" will change the obvious fact that Alm and Celica never had a perfect balance and a lot of the ideas about the two were made up by the fanbase. The remake did not change him to become an invincible hero, that is undeniable. SOV was faithful to Gaiden. Gaiden actively rewarded Alm for the most basic things.

No shot. The twins are despised and unpopular for good reason, it'd be wasted effort and considering AOC didn't bring back any of their characters... Why would this be any different?

Kinda hoping they find a way to sneak all the base units in. Especially the students from the three houses. Considering the original Warriors didn't branch out. No shot is the dedicated Three Houses game doing it.

It still doesn't change the fact that Alm would've died in the war without Celica. There's still more than one instance of him needing Celica's help, otherwise she wouldn't get that vision anyway with Shadows of Valentia making it abundantly clear that he would've lost without her. Especially when she's the entire reason he gets promoted and a magical boost in power. Doesn't really change that Celica's route still has positive changes and far more equalizing things, my big overall point. She's changed to be more dependent on her allies but so is Alm. Alm and Celica only need to directly rescue each other 1-2 times. Otherwise they get helped by their own allies instead.

Because a lot of the ideas about the protags and how they correlate to their kingdoms was nothing but headcanon. If Alm was supposed to be the worst of Duma and Rigel, why isn't Celica the worst of Mila and Zofia? Celica isn't lazy or self centered, she's peak Zofian. They have no real reason to massively change anything, they didn't with the other ones. Celica is designed to be a supporting protagonist, a lot of her character rides on that. They're being faithful to Gaiden and Alm having tons of agency is a big part of the game. Hell, they still managed to give Celica a lot more agency than what she had in the original game. Celica actually has the plot birthmark too and her own prf weapon and abilities now. Those were things she never had in Gaiden, she got an expanded character and arc too.

Yeah but like- Regardless of how you play the game- That's just a matter of gameplay and story segregation. Especially when Gaiden fully confirmed the idea and SOV didn't contradict this approach. When SOV chooses to deviate from Gaiden, they make sure to have it abundantly clear. Like going out of their way to make Alm fully show his care for Mycen or not have Lukas be a douchebag. They just didn't massively explore Dragons Maw like a lot of things in the lategame (and all the scrapped content is more proof of this sadly). They never have dialogue of Alm telling his army to fall back nor does the story acknowledge that Alm can go back. if Alm was not supposed to be in any real danger, Jedah would not mention Alm at all. Especially in the idea that she'd lose him, Jedah only talks about that kind of thing when Alm is stuck in Gaiden so to have it in Echoes too only makes clear about what the devs attempted to do. It's still something Celica had to do to help him out. My points involve the disagreement on the idea that Celica's route didn't get massive positives like Alm's did. And them repurposing the rockslide doesn't invalidate everything else in her route nor the massive expansions on her character. There is a degree of balance here since Alm and Celica don't get the same grip over every single event like they used to. They're changed to need help from other people. And the devs have 100% reaffirmed on this by pushing an idea of Lukas being Alm + the Villagers' teacher and the CD drama double downs on it once they're able to make Lukas fully relevant to the story (perma-death is a problem).

Jedah: Keh heh heh… Your struggling is most precious. But I’ll not end your meager little lives quite yet. Anthiese! You will ascend Duma Tower and join me at its pinnacle! …Unless you wish to lose your precious Alm, that is. Are you sure about that? It still strictly mentions Alm being in danger and that she'll lose him if she doesn't listen to him. That very much implies Dragons Maw. Also, pretty sure you can do the same in Gaiden where you can encounter Jedah without Alm being trapped due to the nature of Gaiden as a game. So that claim doesn't really work. The situation isn't removed. Alm is canonically physically unable to continue his journey without Celica's sacrifice and is canonically trapped the same way since SOV never offered contradicting dialogue. The game just chose to focus more on Mila since that was ALSO a goal for both Celicas. But in the original game, that goal gets slighted strictly for Alm. But you directly said that it's dependent on if the positives outweigh the negatives. And just like Alm's route: Celica's positives significantly outweigh the negatives by a landslide (or rather... a rockslide lol) and got an expansion that not even Alm could get. His family life is practically shafted in comparison to the sheer amount of love the writers gave Celica and her past.

Sure the benefit for saving Alm is sidelined but it's still important for him to be saved. He couldn't continue his journey and was kind of a sitting duck either way. And honestly? Dragons Maw didn't need extensive focus, it's not a punishment for Alm since it was out of his control. He didn't get in trouble from his own rash decision making like how approaching Nuibaba put him in a disadvantage. Or how Celica in Gaiden made the deal that put her in peril. Alm doesn't trade it. That's a second time he gets put in danger. He also gets his strength and feats downscaled to turn to more of his allies like how Celica needs to turn to hers in the form of Conrad. Alm is made to struggle more and his allies get credit than in Gaiden. Celica still actively saves Alm's life since the big reason she springs into action is because of that bad vision she saw in both Gaiden and SOV. Echoes even went the extra mile to confirm that without Celica, Alm would've died in the war. She still plays a heavy hand in promoting him and giving him the strength necessary to handle the trials ahead. Not at all. The positives are about equal, I've put an entire list of huge changes that benefitted Celica. It is undeniable that she got equivalent changes, with some being bigger than Alm's. Getting the entire lore changed to highlight how important Celica and Mila actually are is a pretty big deal. Celica got a massive fleshing out of her character too just like Alm, she got a more prominent arc and a huge overhaul in the lore for Mila and Celica to get their deserved credit. Her actively talking and deciding things massively increases her agency if not more than Alm in a way since she does the ragtag Deliverance thing without the need of an army. Shadows of Valentia has went and extended how impressive it was for Celica to take down an entire army of pirates with just a few mages and mercs. Grieth even has a scene about the absurdity and it shows how ridiculously competent Celica is in combat and leading her allies. There's so many big changes. Mila also wasn't even directly shown in Gaiden like the way Duma was. Alm no longer has exclusivity for the big things in the world of Valentia. No more bullshit of him having an exclusive mark of destiny that brought Zeke, along with him having the lord prf weapon while Celica had nothing. Celica gets her mark too and it ties into the world heavily in its own right. Celica's past and relationships gets significant more touchups, in Gaiden it was a complete one-sided benefit for Alm. We actively only saw Alm's side of the family while the king is off screened and we know a lot less about Celica's family and traumatizing events that led to her being on Novis. That is completely changed in SOV and we even see Celica's childhood multiple times. We see more of how much Liprica went through, we know how she looks like and we know a lot more about Lima and his impact on the world. That's not getting into Conrad and how he repurposes Halcyon to impact more people than just being at Alm's beck and call + we see his childhood with Celica. Which is great, more of Celica's past getting focused on. With Shadows of Valentia's inclusion, it's the polar opposite of Gaiden. We know now more about Celica's true origins and background than we do with Alm's. We see Celica's parents and their lives, we have a direct sibling of Celica's being an active part of the party, and we see her childhood more than once in memory prisms if we don't count the prologue that applied to Celica and Alm equally. All the while we still don't even know who Alm's own mother is nor do we see her. That's a mystery.

And the combined weight still outclasses the bad. Celica got a way more expanded character, more times to show her strength and desire to protect the people she holds dear even through violence if she has to, her promotion is significantly better and thought through than in Gaiden, more scenes to show the two's mutual care for each other, the equal amount of charming dialogue overall like Alm gets, her past and family is actually shown to us than a blatant afterthought like in Gaiden, we get a new character related to that past (even giving Halcyon more purpose through that character... now giving Halcyon more than just plot convenient powerup for Alm and Alm alone), etc. They even changed the entire lore to fully account for Mila and Celica's end. She got the plot birthmark she was denied of in Gaiden and exclusive Mila related abilities that are given importance in the lore of Valentia rather than Alm getting exclusivity with the Kingsfang. Celica gets to have actual prf weapons and abilities now! That was a mistake, I meant "only Alm benefitted". You seem to argue that's the case and his route got massive positive changes and Celica's are negative... which I can't agree with. There's so many good things that got underappreciated or ignored for the sake of negativity. That logic would work if it weren't for the fact that Alm is still heavily implied to be stuck in dragon's maw since Jedah still brings Alm up like in Gaiden. The story never mentions Alm backtracking, it's just an attempted QOL gameplay change. The canonical Drama CD goes as far as to put that the charm is a unique case that heavily helped Alm out and is meant to repel Duma's magic, it's not a replacement for dragon's maw. These are two instances of him being bailed out by Celica in two different ways (technically three since the charm is used again to defeat a specific spell Alm had no counter to). SOV didn't take it away, the factor is still there if Jedah's going to randomly mention Alm like in Gaiden. They put focus on other things now too since in Gaiden: it is mentioned in dialogue that Celica's main mission is still to bring back Mila at all costs. "I am Hark. You have journeyed here on a quest to seek the vanished Mila?" -Act 4 Does the damsel stuff matter too much when Alm gets a similar treatment anyway? He gets his strength lessened rather than being peak male fantasy and had to get saved by her more than once. He gets more people questioning him and isn't a steamrolling god like in Gaiden. There's a balance here that I'm arguing about. Alm didn't just get good while Celica got bad. Celica got to have impactful things as a character that are equal to Alm's.

I still believe the rockslide change doesn't matter, leaving it the way it was from Gaiden would suck. Celica's route had a lot of changes than just Conrad, she benefits heavily from them. It's a massive exaggeration to say that only Alm benefitted. And he didn't get it perfectly either since the mirror subplot and illusion of Celica was infinitely more pointless and contrived than Conrad. At least Conrad has a payoff and does matter to Celica personally. Alm got nothing out of either those scenes, he even gets his strength and agency lessened since he actively struggles on 3 Rigelian clowns despite having a whole army by his side. We get some decent stuff and overall ok character out of Celica's more divisive changes, we get 5 seconds of "oh no...! anyway." with Alm's. Celica's family was horribly shafted in Gaiden, now we get to know more about them than before. We get nothing new with the more egregious changes on Alm's end. So I'm more than willing to argue that there's a balance here and Celica's route is still great.

Both.

Both of Alm and Celica's agencies were lessened for the sake of attempting a more balanced plot, it's not exclusive to Celica. Sometimes things are taken but a lot's given to both of them at the same time. They still do the things they do, but SOV actually added a lot for Celica too. She's given more focus on her passionate desires to save her people. They made up a brand new birthmark for her and made her promotion significantly more important rather than having it happen with a random unnamed woman in Grieth's jailcell. Alm had more fanfare in comparison, SOV went and fixed that issue. Echoes also added new scenes of people constantly doubting Alm with him needing to defend and justify himself, a far cry from Gaiden where he just did what he wanted without anybody talking about it. They added deliverance infighting over Alm's presence. They actively bring up the sus vibes of Mycen's grandson rather than letting it exist with no issues. They even added people like Tatiana having no idea someone like Alm was supposed to be the leader. That lessens a lot of the overbearing charisma and tight grip Alm had over the plot in Gaiden. Alm had everything go perfectly in comparison to SOV to the point Gaiden made up a random birthmark that Celica didn't have just to make sure Zeke fights with us. I'd argue that despite some added contrivedness, things are more balanced than they've ever been.

I sure hope that you aren't using the rockslide event against the game. What we have now is an improvement regardless of how outdated and cheesy it can be sometimes. It's one of the rare things that both sides are equal on, that being the writers' attempts to try and add stakes. Remember the Berkut encounter where only 3 generals are stated to give Alm and his army massive trouble with a cutscene and dialogue to boot? While in Gaiden, it was just a sweep to reinforce Alm's strength.

"A natural occurrence." The rockslide was one of the most blatant examples of Gaiden's forced plot contrivance. There were zero signs of rocky unstable terrain beforehand. It legit just happened to further the plot and force the two to be separate. It's the polar opposite of something happening naturally since we never get a meaningful rockslide or earthquake event again. The rockslide event in SOV makes 10x more sense for the world Gaiden created, even if the moment with Conrad was less than preferable.

What are you talking about? Alm was always an invincible hero. It was a lopsided thing from Gaiden that Echoes kept to be faithful. He immediately becomes leader out of nowhere and gives the ragtatg Deliverance success never seen before, he finds far more powerful weapons and never loses a battle in the war despite barely having experience with the real world. The fact that Celica isn't required to beat Duma and only Alm can speaks volumes about the protag balance. Celica's great but Kaga always made her a supporting protagonist to Alm.

My first playthrough ever and seeing how much they changed the characters. The art upgrade will always stick to me as one of the biggest glow ups in gaming.

Nooo moooore avatars Except Mark, they're ok.