I can understand being gun-shy about voting others again in order to consolidate wagons for D1.
However, I do believe there were other reasons (outside of the voting/not voting issue) that caused your slot to seem worse alignment/intention wise.
For one, there was the issue of lack of casing/your own reads on the other players, and the voting/retracting of the vote over a claim that most people didn't find Alignment indicative (I believe he was the Motivator scum). There was also the unwillingness to at least focus on the top wagons of that day phase, and hopping on/off votes near the end of the phase (which could have contributed to a NO LYNCH) is extremely dangerous to do, as townside needs to be willing to consolidate and focus on scum hunting or else scum gets a free pass-to-go for the day phase.
Remember: Townside's only weapon for the most part to remove scum are the LYNCHES. Many games I've played lack any form of Vig or other actual townsided roles that are meant to kill during night phases, so this is our most potent weapon by far to remove threats. Hindering that effort or doing things that can cause us to have a No Lynch are generally anti-town, which is why scum will still wagon others as well to fabricate townsided intentions, albeit for mislynches in their favors.
(Voting should be done accordingly, but outside of RVS, it shouldn't be thrown about without warrant or supporting intentions/reads on slots imo.)
Can you tell me more about the Vibes on DF? What's different than last game, when they were townside?
@JamieIsBored What were your thoughts outside of jokes for Shinori to put votes on Ichigo- any intentions either direction?
Unless you intend to be gone for the majority of the rest of D1, the bolded portion implies that you will be sitting on Shinori vote until someone else's claim/wagon appears concluding the day phase. Tell me: What are your thoughts on any of the other players so far, outside of Shinori? Why wait until near the end of the day phase to read/look into others posts as well? Why not pro-actively scum hunt with the rest of the players, and push to progress the scum hunting as well?
*I don't know if this is a difference in playstyle, but it sounds very coasty sort of vibes, and I want to get more thoughts on the rest of the playerbase, not just Shinori (or myself, regarding the RVS vote you had questions about earlier).
(Quoting this cause it technically directs me to the answer of some of the questions I had with DF vote earlier.)
@Shinori Couple of questions:
1. Does their gameplay seem to be driven by more scum!DF Intent or is it being overloaded with Newbie!DF mistakes/reactions? (Thinking back on the former game we just had with them, what has better or worse vibes than that game?)
2. Regarding the Ichigo voting thing earlier, which was likely to just prod life into the early D1 phase- any thoughts on the reactions that came from it? Or from the whole implications of the anti-town role claim for anyone who has responded thus far to the concerns?
@Aster Quite frankly, it's as Shinori (and a few others) have mentioned: RVS (usually first several pages) are filled with nonsensical votes that are just meant to either joke or just act as a way to start the game. There is nothing to generally "read closely" into ED1, unless you're assuming that scum would purposefully vote one way or another in purely RVS (Which doesn't really ever make sense- RVS universally has and generally will always be taken as jokes in the long run.).
So tell me: just in general reading the thread, what are your thoughts on those who have posted? Myself? Shinori? DF? Jamie? Ichigo? What of the content/commentary of things happening- including Shinori's notion of having a potentially anti-town role, the rolling for votes on Ichigo early on (pinging several others to do so), or the rest of the activity/posts since RVS voting was over?
Under what notion do you seem to hesitate or opt for re-reading when there are so few pages to work with at this time? (On page 4 at the time I started this post?)
So you partially "defend" Shinori's gameplay thus far, but still wary of their gamplay- ok, I can understand being uncertain of his slot. (Though I do not recall seeing any form of "defense" of him, but checking Page 4 to see if this is clarified.)
However, I will state that it still doesn't explain why there's not more being divulged on others as well- has no one else stated or done anything thus far that warrants more concern than Shinori's posts/interactions? [Or, on the flip side, who comes out to you in terms of who you think is more TOWNSIDE vibes at this point?] Because the brunt of what I've seen posted so far seems to just be about him, and little else of others.
This post actually bothers me slightly, because of the notion of why you now seem willing to unvote Shinori once you came under fire for voting him to begin with. You don't seem to be unvoting him because the read on his slot improved or was better, but more as a.... sort of appeasement to Shinori himself? That, and then you wave your own vote off, claiming "what difference does it make right now", as though the vote itself doesn't matter.
A. It's true that it's not end of day phase, and most people have not settled on any form of concrete wagon so far this day phase- not surprising for D1. HOWEVER, this doesn't make actual votes outside of RVS ANY LESS MEANINGFUL, because it builds reads and interactions/connections moving forward. Even if the casing does not DIRECTLY LEAD to someone else's lynch in a day phase, votes and cases can be powerful tools to gauge interactions especially when flips (scum and townside) start happening with NK's and Lynches/Mislynches.
B. If you unvote Shinori at this point, and claim that the vote itself holds little to no merit, it begs the next question: Who warrants the vote more than Shinori for you? What others beckon the attention and deserve the vote more than he does? What good does UNVOTING do if you have no means/reads elsewhere to continue to apply pressure? What intentions do you have with removing your vote on him at this point? @DefyingFates
What are your thoughts on the interactions so far @Ichigo, between the call for random votes on you, and the rest of the posts so far? What of DF actions at this point?
I don't understand how contradicting your own concerns ("defending him from yourself"?) serves any good to double back on the vote concerns above.
Do you mind answering the questions above regarding DF and others?
***Side note: My vote is still on Shinori for joke reasons and such earlier, but that will be modified in a bit given circumstances at this time/more serious notions.
My thoughts so far on players:
Aster has yet to impress me at all with lack of [meaningful] posts/reads and general responses. I understand that there was a downsided mood that was expressed ED1, but there has been time to respond since that has occurred. I would like more responses to questions, more reads, because at this time it's striking as scum!coasting and I don't like the vibes currently.
(I say MEANINGFUL by the posts, because by POST COUNT ALONE Aster actually has SECOND HIGHEST of the thread so far, but little to no in-game content to boast with it. For this reason, plus the fact that DF has been more willing to respond/answer questions, Aster's slot strikes me worse than DF atm.)
DF has been more responsive in a sense, but seems to be waffling hard with Shinori and the voting/unvoting on the slot seems to come at self-depreciative notions of their own power of the vote, and for little reason in backing off of Shinori. I want to hear more thoughts on the others in the game from this slot, because (while not as bad as the one above) the lack of insight/reads from this slot and content so far doesn't feed well into townsided intentions.
Shinori once again has dwarfed the rest of the playerbase in terms of raw posts to the thread, which is probably the biggest progressive push in this thread for D1 to get out of RVS. His Anti-town role claim is odd (given that roles like Miller would want to claim the actual role outright, as noted earlier) due to the lack of details with it, and in the manner he did so does not give me specific town/scum sided intentions. Personally I assume it was meant to pump life into the game and catch other player's attentions, so it does little to nothing for my read on him. Ichigo vote call also struck similar vibes. I do not disagree with his notions/vote and posts about DF either, so I had no issues with it. I do want to hear more opinions on the other slots though, and his thoughts of what the above actions garnered so far in terms of reactions.
But at this time, I would probably put him fairly high, if not the highest in terms of most likely town read for me, if simply due to the progression on levels no one else has met as of yet.
Ichigo and Jamie have been quieter than Shinori (by a far margin), but neither of their posts so far have struck me in a bad tone. I did also put questions above that I want to see answered, to get more insight into their thoughts/reads thus far. I am not currently bothered by them at this moment.
Fire Emblem Fan + Elieson + Bluedoom have not posted at ALL, I don't believe. This is BAD, and it heavily bothers me that 2 of the 3 players in this list I know to be EXPERIENCED players, not newbies. I would normally not pose to have inactive slots lynched/pushed out first, but if nothing improves by the end of D1 and NONE of these 3 post at all by then, someone needs to vig these slots or we need them out, whether it'd be by subs or lynches. This will literally throw the game for townside if somehow all 3 of these slots are townside with the lack of activity.
##Unvote
##Vote: @Aster
My problem with this post: I get not being great or "aggressive" (I'd moreso state like, pro-active rather than "aggressive", as it doesn't require jumping on people or being hard driven with notions? Cases/reads can occur just from witnessing certain interactions, getting vibe checks one way or the other, etc., but it's moreso a thing of being willing TO look, TO search for what may seem off.) with scum hunting, but doing nothing/offering nothing is less than playing more PASSIVELY or lightly on the scum hunting. And that's the BIGGER issue I have currently, because even with questions and multiple players constantly asking you for thoughts, everything is coming up to the response of "IDK?".
Secondly, having doubt on every other player in the game makes sense to some degree, in the concept of being townside (you can only confirm your own town-sided nature, unless you have a role that allows you to KNOW that someone else is of the same alliance depending on the flavor/information given). The only people who would be 100% comfortable with someone else is if they're CONFIRMED town/scum side (this is important when it comes to basing cases/reads from different players associated with others, and flips start happening. Because IE: If someone claims to "townread" their scumbuddy on little to no basis, it calls into question "Why are you so comfortable/sure they're townside?" and is generally something we use to read others based on associations/interactions once lynches/kills happen.) And even then, CONFIRMED TOWN would rarely if ever opt to voice once or the other is cleared to each other openly in-thread, because they would have the prior knowledge of 2 less people to worry about while scum hunting and would also serve to imply to Scum that they're neighbors/lovers/any other alignment cleared pairing role, which could put them more in harm's way.
However, you do need to be willing to sort those you define/see moreso as TOWN reads vs Scum, for the simple fact that we need to consolidate/majority vote lynches each day phase in order to use the most prominent power us townies have to remove scum from the game: Lynches.
And at this point, you're making it difficult for me to be comfortable with your slot, because you've hardly mentioned anyone in either direction, which offers us nothing.
IE. If you died D1 or N1, we'd get little to zero associative reads from your slot, because you offered us nothing. We also really wouldn't get much in terms of other players, including myself, associating WITH YOU in-thread, cases, etc. because there's nothing response wise to gauge from. We NEED CASES/READS/VIBES/ANYTHING that helps us figure out where your train of thought is with the players in this game, because without that, how are we supposed to know what your stance is with the rest of the player base?
Also as stated by multiple others- Statistics suck, and is not great to use as any form of measuring stick. Shinori has scumnori as his nickname for a good reason.
^ Proving my notion above. Also this post (as a side note) feels more townie in the sense that I don't think Scum!nori would take the time to literally RELINK other games/threads for mentions while including more pieces of advice/tips for the game, newbies or not. Call it a gut feeling- don't see him doing this unless he was REALLY BORED as scum. Coasting would also make more sense from scumside so, just a thought.
So, from what I garner from this post, you're sorta leaning more townish than not on Shinori.
And then the other bolded part = nothing again. Has ANYTHING any of the other players (outside of myself/Shinori) said anything that has struck you in ANY way? Scummy? Townie/scum-hunting progressive? No one but Shinori or myself been catching your eye at all? At this point, I'll even take general GUT READS/VIBE CHECKS if you have them- please elaborate.
Understandable coming with the bolded statement.
However, what is causing you to townread Shinori at this time, and Aster's slot as well? What has impressed you with the slots to garner the more positive feelings? And where does that leave everyone else?
Indeed. Does their explanation appease your concerns, or is there anything else from DF at this point that is worth noting?
Re-reading Ichigo's posting history, I can understand where the gameplay may come across as being slightly coasty- in the sense that a lot of the posts have been more reactionary/answering questions (though I do enjoy having the responses rather than ignoring prompts from other players, so it's a + on my side/consideration), than strictly posting to progress the thread when things got slow (IE. What Shinori has been doing to prompt others at various times). However, as noted below:
Busy from IRL(?) or habitual gameplay could be aspects to contribute to the posts so far, which are understandable to some degree. Though I wouldn't be opposed to seeing/hearing more if possible with the extension completed for D1.
Welcome to your first Mafia game.
Side note: Voting for the sake of voting isn't generally great, and in the context of this first post, I would have to agree with others who've stated so already (like below) that this particular vote did NOT feel good.
My personal issue with the Jamie vote is that there seemed to be little to no explanation to warrant the vote. You did state "Based loosely on what I've read and observed here..." --- What exactly did you read/observe that made you want to vote Jamie? Was it something that was said/done with a post or votes happening? Did someone else's case on Jamie make sense, or did something the slot do cause concern for you? With no thoughts put forth WITH the vote, I don't understand the WHY behind it, which makes the vote seem out of the blue and baseless?
Voting is singlehandedly the strongest driving force behind securing lynches for town, and utilizing the power we have to scumhunt, yes. However, just because you CAN and SHOULD vote does not mean you should vote on a WHIM without justifying it. Because things like MISLYNCHES can also occur if people pile mindless votes onto a wagon, and it can lead to deaths of other townies and cause townside to throw games.
However, this at least does provide more insight into thoughts/reads so far in the game (sort of), which I can appreciate.
1. Shinori : Your considerations on his posts/actions thus far: Would anything that has been said/done so far make more sense coming from Scum!Shinori vs Town!Shinori? Is there any scum intentions behind his posts? Is your read on him implying you have more of a townread on him, or more of a null or scum read? Not sure where you stand with him atm.
2. Aster: Newbies unite, I get it. However, do you believe Aster has produced anything meaningful or attempted to provide any form of cases/reads that would make you comfortably view them as coming from townside? New-aspect aside, what read do you have on this slot at this time?
3. Ichigo: Truthful about what? Their thoughts/opinions/reads? Being honest is one thing, but is being straight with their responses enough to formulate a townread on their slot as a result? What does his slot seeming truthful do for you?
4. Eury (hey it's me!): Honestly, being willing to help newbies is NAI (non-alignment indicative) tbh. Shinori is a prime example of that- constantly voicing tips/notions/general ideas is something more experienced players of Mafia games will do from EITHER ALIGNMENT, so I would not use it to purely base reads upon any player slot, myself or otherwise. However, I would like to know more about what you think of my slot- has there been any questions or such for me that you want answered, or anything noteworthy in either direction?
5. Bluedoom: ED1 absence is understandable, since it was even announced by host (which I admittedly forgot about in one of my other posts), but any considerations since this slot has started to post? In any reads/votes so far?
6. I mean you COULD vote yourself, but it is considered the most anti-town thing you could do, so I generally wouldn't recommend it.
For a new player/first game, I can see the attempt to get reads, which I give you 2 thumbs up for by the second post/notion I saw. Do you mind offering some input though to help clarify the questions above though @Fire Emblem Fan? Both the questions here + the vote with Jamie, if you would be so kind to elaborate on the earlier concerns.
Can agree that doing so is NAI, as mentioned above. However, is there anything else that is concerning regarding my own slot or Jamie or others? (Disregarding Elieson since basically no posts have been made of any merit atm.) What questions or issues do you have, and what sort of priority is being given for consolidations for today from your PoV?
Issue with "giving them an hour" though is that people have a wide variety of timezones/availability in general. 1hr if someone is sleeping or working means nothing, so I'd take that as a grain of salt-- if it was a 6-8hr+ period for a question though, that would be a more understandable timeframe to have concern imo.
Who concerns you the most in those who have voted you thus far? Worst to most reasonable casing of votes regarding those on the wagon?
Something that can help is that, on the first page of this forum thread, there's a playerlist that shows @ player names and you can click on each one to see their posting history, and general information of the posts so far in-game. It does sorta take things out of in-thread context (as it will only show their posts), but it can be a good way to briefly check in, see the quality/types of posts they've made, and be able to click on each one to jump into the thread of when the post happened, who they responded to, etc. (It can be good for example, to check overall post interaction/count and see as to whether the player is being proactive or not, or moreso coasting and posting minimally as the day progresses.)
It can be easier to sort out thoughts/reads on players by going thru them individually, rather than as a whole/re-reading the thread pages in one bulk sitting, if that helps any.
@Aster Tell me, who is scum? Who is town? None of your reads are coming thru clearly at all, and none of the reads you have are indicating whether you're finding them townside or scumside. It's coming off extremely waffly, which is making it harder for me to see this as just newbie paralysis, because there have been plenty of questions/opportunities presented by other players to you directly for clarity, when none has been given.
What does the Shinori -> Ichigo voting do for the slot? What overall read from FEFan do you have? What about Jamie, Ichigo, or anyone else in the game? Who would you consolidate on by the end of D1, as the top 3 priorities for you for lynch consolidation?
Perhaps the warning/notion was not conveyed early on, because we were alerted to Bluedoom's inactivity for ED1, not yours by Sunwoo. So that would've been good to know about beforehand, so we would anticipate 2 slots being absent for at least a portion of the phase, not 1.
Looking forward to the posts incoming (hopefully).
My vote is staying on Aster, because at this point, from everything I've seen above, nothing has changed, and this is bad. "NEWER PLAYER" doesn't excuse the lacks of attention to the game, any attempts at actual thoughts/reads at this point (FE Fan has put forth more in the fraction of posts thus far, though there are plenty of questions still wanting to be answered with the notions). I need to hear more before I'm willing to look elsewhere, though regarding consolidation options for end of D1:
Players off the Consideration (No touchie whatsoever from my PoV)
Myself
Shinori (Still remains to be singlehandedly pushing the D1 progression the hardest, when it would have been easy to coast this game with how inactive the other players have been. While scum CAN do this to emulate scum hunting, I don't anticipate scum!Shinori to be pushing this hard, unless he's doing it to decimate morale of town by the end of the game. As of right now, he has my vote of the towniest read atm for me.) Would not lynch him under any circumstance.
Elieson - Inactive/not Posted yet, and enough players have posted by this point to where I'd rather settle/consolidate on someone who has posts/cases at this time for associative reads. Pass for today (unless posts change massively by end of D1 that drive my consideration completely away from townside), and would not lynch.
Players more Nullside and lower tier of consolidations
Bluedoom: Was until recently inactive/not posting (so was on the same tier as Elieson until recent), so more leeway atm than others who have been present since ED1. Has been decent in responsiveness to questions, and at least was giving thoughts out the gate in initial posts, which I'm OK with. I want to hear more about the other players (I got some form of idea of Shinori read, had questions about me, and then notions of Jamie- want to hear about other thoughts from rest of the players outside of us 3), but otherwise due to later start date + reasonable vibes so far, probably would not really consider for today.
Ichigo: While they haven't been as active/posting as Shinori, their slot in general hasn't read terribly to me for the majority of the day phase. If possible, I would like more updated reads/notions from their slot on the rest of the players today, but I'm not currently wanting to consider this slot for today either.
Fire Emblem Fan: For a first timer this game, I'm actually impressed in the sense of I have a feel of genuine attempts to at least try and obtain reads/vibes from other players from the posts that I've read so far. I would like to see more (in terms of answers/replies to the questions noted above). With that in mind, I would probably not consolidate their slot either today.
Players Likely to be the Option for today/that I would be OK with:
DF: I WILL state immediately that DF is currently hovering/at the top of this list close to tumbling into the list above of no-consolidation. The reason why is that, first impressions weren't great, and currently their reads are also still not quite where I feel comfortable with. HOWEVER, they do seem to be responding more in this game than the last to questions and notions, which is a + in my books, and are attempting to clarify some form of reads in later posts. This alongside with newbie aspects, is understandable, but I would feel better about the slot if more can be given, and I can get more clear reads from them of where the players stand atm.
Jamie: This was a slot that was similar in vibes to me as Ichigo early on, because both seemed to be responding/pinging back and forth with others like Shinori, in what seemed like good general discussion/activity. However, when it came to re-reading the thread/post history of Jamie's slot:
1. Posted early on that they assumed DF seemed townie (noting it against Shinori's notion/vibe read).
2. Asked Aster thoughts on reads (which none was given).
3. Commented on NAI about Shinori's role claim.
4. Statistics commentary (about people being X likely to role scum/town).
5. Vote on Ichigo with a notion that they were coasting/not truly contributing to the thread (and potentially vote sitting on an inactive slot?)
6. Then goes onto Vote FEF when they voted him, stating the vote is not good (which I agree with).
The rest of the posts thereafter seem to fall flat for me, and the problem for me arises: Jamie has second place in raw amounts of posts, yet, outside of DF townread vibes (later post lists DF as TOP townread for them?) and then voting FEF = I have zero idea where they stand on ANYONE else in the game. The fact that they stand on FEF for their current scum case/read yet have nothing else to say from any of the others (outside of DF) that have been posting/present since ED1 confuses me, because I feel like there should be some form of town/scum reads from at least one other person so far? (I don't recall reading about anyone else even when re-reading their actual posting history for this game.)
It's a weird spin of "Better than Aster" (in terms of Aster having post count but basically no casing?) in terms of not as scummy, but in all other aspects, it feels off that there's not a whole lot of reads/scumhunting impression I'm getting from the slot, despite Jamie now being #2 overall in posts. I also don't understand the DF hard townread either, and the lack of any casing on anyone else gives it a very tunneled casing at this point on FEF.
This slot is #2 under Aster in Priority atm, and is one I would consolidate willingly at this point.
Aster: I'm pretty sure the first part of this post (along with previous posts + my vote residing on this slot) speaks for itself- I don't feel the need to beat a dead horse here. Top consideration for today's lynch, and will only shift willingly to Jamie if necessary for today's lynch. People will have to sell me on DF, not really wanting to lynch anyone else today.
Even if he lives tonight, do you think he would realistically watch Shinori as town!watcher, or would he assume that Shinori is likely to be protected, and thus aim elsewhere instead? What do we do if Jamie lives, yet doesn't opt to watch Shinori N1?
These quotes stuck out to me.
Throughout Eury's ISO side, they nulltown Ichigo and end up defending them at every turn, then jump on the wagon early without adjusting their actual reasoning. The vote doesn't fit their "not interested in Ichigo today" at the beginning of the phase.
TL;DR Eury is scum.
