Nihilem

Unintentional double post - please delete

Where does that come from? I thought I have searched the bibliothek in abyssus quite well but didnt find anything sugesting that the nabateans tried to force anyone to worship sothis. Was it some kind of book I didnt unlock there or do you have that from extra-game materials? I always imagined the Nabateans to be isolationistic people (like all other manaketes in the series), heck they build an city in a remote location after the war instead of running around and trying to convert people. Or expanding their realm to conquer all of fodlan. The agression (to my knowledge) started when the massacre at Zanado brought them to the brink of annihilation. Also that does not fit to the fact that open non believers are high ranking members of the knights. Even the personal butler of the archbishop is not a believer in Sothis and no one seems to care and is encouraged by Rhea herself to find his own way. Would Rhea really do that if Sothis was enforcing people to worship her?

That is probably true for the unlucky fools who are sent to actually fight the war. For the ones that start it on the other side there are plentyful of other reasons - most have to do with power. Thats why most modern countries have divided power onto multiple people. A lot of people actually. So that war would not be declared because one leader feels like it. In this context the political situation at the start of the game might even have some advantages over the unified continent at the end. Because regardless who wins if his or her sucessor is an incompetent or malicious the whole continent is screwed. If there would be three countries (Four if you thread Gareg Mach as indepentend city state) and in one country people get screwed hardly the might leave fo another one. Similiar to how things happened between west and east europe in the cold war. Actually there is a presedent of this actually in game - being mercedes fleeing to the kingdom because she was threaded badly by the empire. With technologies advancing which increase the spread of information and require more and more skilled people at some point mistreated commoners might just say "well mr. noble if you thread my like waste I will move to a territory that does not". Competition stimulates buisness is what the merchants would say. But I admit there is a lot of when and if in this kind of thinking. Things depend on events like the industralization to happen so that the countries have to adapt and change their feudal systems ... but I found it an interesting thought that crossed my mind. I think that is intentional. They didnt wanted one ending beeing better than another one.

Well the risk of war is always there. For some reason humans really like to kill each other. That could happen in Edelgards system, in Claudes System , heck even if Byleth took his rightful place as God(ess)-Emperor of Fodlan and brought the golden age of human expansion and con ...... ok wrong universe... Point is that a system that collects power around one person fill inevitable fail if said person is incompetent. And as all of the endings suggest that political power is quite centralized they all of that problem that the next person in charge could be ruining everything. Or the next one after that. What I wanted to express in is that there is the misconception that there is always a need for a french revolution to make a "system with nobles" to a "just system were commoners are not treated like insects" and that less bloody routes are possible. Probably not entirely unbloody ones because at that time period people liked killing each other even more than today, but as mentioned before war will sooner or later happen with any system ....

Hmm I always thought that his system basically lead to a constitutional monarchy. So the nobility stays but their power over the commoners is checked by a centralized government (which is the listening to all voices part). With the duties and privileges of the nobility over time slowly beeing erased in favor of probably democratic structures. So quite similiar how things went down for the westeuropean kingdoms like england and spain, which still have a nobility and a king (or queen) to this day, but have embraced democracy and equal rights over time. While Edelgards approach would more mirror the history of france which removed most of their nobility in the french revolution.

You are now referencing the ancient Nabatean - Agarthian war. The massacre at Zanado had a clear agressor that beeing nemesis and the ten elites which were after fancy magic weapons. And I highly doubt that the Nabatean did something to them that justifies themseves to getting slaugthered. At least there is no indication of that what so ever in the game. For the ancient war that would be a time were Sothis still roamed the earth. And while Sothis did not seem to have any interest in converting someone to pray to her the Agarthians continue to do questionable stuff again and again..... so if I would have to bet who throwed the first punch my money is definetly on the agarthians.

Does Edelgard actually believe Byleth to be an Manakete? She mentioned that she believes him beeing conected to Rhea in some form (said so before the final battle), but is there any point in CF were she does not see him as a human? Also the idea with the "Country for Manaketes" they actually tried in Zanado. Well it was more like a village, because there are not that many Manaketes. And we all now how that turned out.... With the difference that the Slitherers have proven to do horrible things like human experimentation and creating diseases (and leeting them loose an imperial citizen) while Rhea to my knowledge has not hurt a single Faerghus citizen before her rampage. If that person was not a traitor trying to kill her (If you want to count the militia under Lonatos rebellion and the western church as Faerghus citizens, which I dont do because they are well ... rebels...). And definetly no unarmed civillians like the slitherers have done. If you think this actions are comparable then that might be your opinion ... but I cant understand it ... Yes and that I find unfortunate. Even if that would be true and we ignore the centuries of peace and security ... why shall other Nabateans suffer for it just because they are from the same race? While I definetly would find a story about edelgard and other Manakets interesting .... that is all headcanon. We have no idea how she would see Tiki (or Corrin, etc etc)

I think she surprised after the mission that Flayn and Seteth retreated. Also killing them for beeing manaketes is ofc the worst way of discrimination but not the only one. As you already have mentioned: "Edelgard wants humanity to have control of their own destiny and not be ruled over by immortal creatures who think they know better than humans and make decisions over what technology they are allowed to have or not. " She wants humans to be in control. So do you truely believe she would allow a manakete to have any influencial position in her new found empire? Then you may have more faith in Edelgard then I do. Which is why I wished to have this development in the CF story line. I think they only mentioned that he battled (brutally) some rebells. Nether is it stated that he harmend duscurians for beeing duscurians, and unarmend ones exspecilly not. i dont remember something like that not at least

The game doesnt track where Edelgard is when you spare Seteth and Flayn. The only necessary action is for byleth to attack them. If Edelgard attacks them they die. So Byleth spared them. Not Edelgard. That may be. Or it may not. Everything here is headcanon. I just wished that game actually dealt with this problem instead of taking the easy route. That would be news to me. It is mentioned that he put out some rebellions but never (to my knowledge) it was mentioned to be duscur citizens. Do you have a quote? Then I will check.

The one sparring Flayn and Seteth is Byleth not Edelgard. Then she has a funny way of showing that. In all the routes whenever she was dialogue with any of the manaketes she always refers them to their entire race instead of their allegiange or person. For example in her S-Support she says something like "finally the children of the godess have lost..." Not "Rhea has Lost" or "The Church has lost" but "Children of the Godess" as in their entire race has lost. In AZ/VW or SS she also quotes it like this when beeing attacked by Flayn e.g. . I admit that given the name it is easy to confuse them with the church, but it still is the name they have given to their race (as Nabatean is never beeing said in CF or AM, the other routes I currently dont know) even if one does not have a position inside the church. As I said unfortunately the game took the easy route we cannot say completly for certain what would happen.... That is exactly the problem. That description fits maybe on Rhea and to a lesser decree also on Seteth but in no way shape or form can I see Flayn as an evil shadowy shemer. But Edelgard threads them all as if they all were Rhea. My point it that it would be a really nice and important character development if that would somehow handled in CF. What makes you think Dimitri has ever supported the Duscur Massacre? On the contrary he secretly helps them in his paralogue in White Clouds.

While the parts about the motive is true I wouldnt say that Dimitris "evil actions" are on the same scale as Edelgards. Dimitri went on a personal vendetta and then against Empire Military and then defended his realm against an agressor while Edelgard started a continent wide war which impacted the lives of uncountable people, not to think what horros the Argathians were comitting who she helped to get to power (even if it only was for a time). Also the "better future" part only applies to humans. I know the game makes its easy by saying that there are only 3 manaketes left, where one went insane and the other two either killed in battle or flied to a distant country.... but if there would have been others hidden amoung the populance of either of the three nations their future would propably be quite dark... I actually think that this part would be a really nice oppurtunety to give her some character development. The point that all manaketes are evil shemers simply because of their race stinks for Agarthian Propaganda and that Edelgard did not question that even once is unfortunate. Denying that point of core Argathian Ideology would have shown that she is cutting herself through the web of lies they have spinned around her....

I should have written it properly more clearly but that is what I meant. The reason for his development were the bonds created by Byleth and the death of his uncle. Both is missing in CF so I dont think that he values saving his countrymen over revenge. That on the other side makes no sense. Going from "Talking to one self" to "Burning your own City" is quite a big lead and could not at any way be predicted by Dimitri. Also the alternity was to let themselves get conquered by Edelgard who was known to work with people who do horrible experiments and the country folk. Therefore the bigger thread for his people in his eyes definetly was Edelgard.

While that has some truth in it she is not that innocent as you describe her. Even if she disapproves of their actions she is quite willingly to help them by giving them the death knight and aiding their attack on the holy mausoleum to steal the crest stones. At this point it was quite clear what they are going to be used to .... Ok one can argue she had no other choice to fullfill her dream, but that can be used to defend each and every depicable act imaginable. To the dimitri discussion. I do not believe that in Azure Moon "Helping his Country men" was on the same level of importance as "Revenge". The Choice between going to gronder and attacking Fhirdiad in early AM was literally the choice between the two options, and we all know what he decided .... it was only after his character development that the priorities shifted.

Sheesh, I was gone for only two days and the thread has grown for more then 4 full pages, its hard to keep up with you guys .... 😅 Executed by the winning faction, not by Edelgard. If you see here as evil or a villain or a villainous Evil highly depends on the personal definition of those things. Which is quite different for most people. Thats why villains in most mainstream media are made doing needlessly cruel things just so that a broad audience will hate them (See "kicking the dog"-trope). I am quite glad that IS didnt use that trope in the game (outside of TWSITD). I think that is intentional. They were quite clear that they didnt like to have a golden ending (unfortunately) to not invalidate a decision the player made. Having one of the routs be the "good" ending and the other two "worse/bad endings" would also invalidate that.

If you dig deeper you also see references to other periods of the german history. The cutscene were she decleared war on the church was most likely inspired by the nuremberg Rally, which itself is connected to the beginning of the third reich. The whole part about "race of religious lizards who in secret control the fate of the world from the shadows" also feels uncomfortly close to how the nazis viewed the jews (I am not saying that Edelgard is a facist. Only that this is anther reference to german history not related to HRE). The Creation of the "Ministry of Religion" to control the church is in my opinion definetly more connected to Bismarck (which were active in the north german empire and not HRE) because it actually represents the result of the "Kulturkampf" (replacing church structures by state structures) then the "Investiturstreits" (which was about the right to appoint bishops). The southern bishop was exiled and his function replaced by a minister after all, he was not replaced by another bishop appointed from the emperor. Next the current situation of the empire wields some interesting parallels to the "Weimar Republic". The whole argument that the church aided the rebels in their war for independence is quite close - while not perfectly - resembling the "Dolchstoßlegende" were the military leaders of the old german empire claimed that the loss of world war 1 was not because they were defeated by a supreme military army but because the socialdemocrats (there political concurrents) had aided the enemy forces in secret. Also the story of crimson flower is literally a retelling of hitlers rise to power, where a secret gathering of old nobles aided the charismatic new leader to battle a greater foe (the communists) in the hope to controll him later. But they got removed from power silently once that person rose to power quite quickly. Again not saying Edelgard is a Nazi. Just that I find it interesting how many connections to all of german history can be found in the game. But the connections to real world history is in itself of course no argument if the church has power in the empire. The Ministry of Religion on the other side is a really good argument that they dont have. Unless of course the church has secret controll over it - which I dont believe because in the whole game there is no evidence for it. Just because of historical interest: What victories do you mean? The catholic church -to my knowledge- never could retake the privileges it lost during the Kulturkampf. And the power shifted to the state, not the protestants. Well most prussians statesmen were ofc protestants but the laws were enacted that the state would control it and no church of whichever confession. I would appreciate if we could have a serious discussion based on facts not emotions. Because people do not follow your logic does not make them stupid. My reasoning for believing that Edelgard may buy the lies the Agarthans tell her is because we actually see her buying other lies the Agarthans tell her ingame. Like the great hero Nemesis who only had a struggle with the Nabateans and is not the agressor. Were even the Agarthans mock her for. Or that the Church somehow diveded the empire when in the DLC it is hinted that it was some familiar underground people. It may be that she does not believe them and only told them to their forces that they follow her, but unfortunately we can not look into her head to see what she is really thinking .... She certainly would not believe everything they say, but if it is enough to influence her actions ..... Having diplomatic relations is not the same thing as controlling foreign countries in secret. I see no evidence that relations between the central church and the empire have improved after the insurrection. Or that they somehow can control things inside the empire. For your second argument i am a little bit confused, the tragedy of Duscur and Insurrection of the seven is even more evidence that the central church has no influence over the three realms of fodlan (or alternatively do not care what is happening there). Either way they do not seem to control things happening in the realms from the shadows, because they are either unable or unwilling to do it. Or do you mean that they should have build up enough power in e.g. Faerghus to prevent such things? Wouldnt they then not actually becoming the shadowy mastermind Edelgard is criticising them? The French Revolution did not change much. Most of it was reverted by the rise of Napoleon and the Wiener Kongress. Just with other people in power. The processes that brought us modern democracies were much much slower.

Having the archbishop at your own crowing is also something is also nice publicity for the newly crowned emperor. Like politicans from conservative parties across europe are eager to meet the pope and letting themselves taken pictures with him. That does not mean that the pope has anything to say in the countries of those politicans. On the other side, the existence of the Ministry of Religion which has replaced the southern bishop is hard evidence that the influence of the church on empire politics is minimal at best. This event alone is basically there version of Bismarcks "Kulturkampf" (a struggle between the (nothern) german empire and the catholic church, where the politican Bismarck basically stripped the church from most of there important wordly "rights" like perfoming marriages and (religious) education and putting them under control of the state) which diminished the influence of the catholic church in germany quite drastically and cemeted the "Split between church and state" (dont know the correct english word for it). With all the references between Adrestia and the various german states, i dont think that this is a accident .... But by all this discussions we should probably keep in mind that only we as the outside observant know this. Edelgard on the other side were fetched information from a group which had all the intention to make the church look as bad as possible whereever they can. So maybe they conviced Edelgard that the Ministry of Religion was secretly controlled by the church or that even the whole Coup détat was somehow their doing .... wouldnt be the first time they blamed the church for things they themselves were responsible for .... But wasnt his point that creating a functioning and just system took time? Because the system in the aftermath of the french revolution was certainly not just and I would also say not really functioning.... that you can overthrow a system in a few years I think no one questioned. But then you normally have chaos.

Thank you for the link. Unfortunately the wiki does not say where the number comes from (probably somewhere from silver snow I suppose) but thats something neither of us can change. Regardless, the information that the church in the empire is controlled by the "ministry of religion" under Count Varley (Bernadettas Father) was completly new to me. But that makes the condition "Edelgards splits from the church" seamingly absurd as the empire controlls the church in adrestia. She could abolish the Ministry and forbid the Faith inside the empire - which would certainly lead to a hard respone from the other churches, but i do not think that this was what this is about .... and we have no evidence that Edelgard ever planned that, regardless of routes ....

While I agree with your theory that when Edelgard didnt attack, Rhea would probably do nothing in return and the arguments that that the relations between the empire and the church were frosty at best for years I never found the actually time frame. Where do these 180 years come from?

Well Mercedes is quite the pious one. So attacking a holy place with armed forces on a holy festival.... fully intending to murdering however comes into their way did get a little bit under her skin. To topic: Nothing would happen. The Central Church would probably write her an letter asking what she means with "splitting from the church", as she was never affiliated with them in the first place. Nor did the Central Church had any influence in the empire to begin with. That was the job of the Southern Church, which only has a little bit of influence after their actions in the rebellion (unfortunetaly it was never mentioned who their were rebelling against ... or if it was their rebellion to begin with). The Clerics actually hoped that Empire and church would get a little bit closer after Edelgard enrolled in the academy. So they would probably be disappointed but nothing more because that was the state before her enrollment anyway. If she also hold her nürnber rally - accussing the church of aiding the kingdom and the alliance in their splitting, things might get a little bit complicated. But I doubt that Rhea would start a war. After all she did nothing, when the southern church was depowered by the empire. Or when the alliance split from the kingdom. or when the kingdom split from the alliance. She does not seem to do anything when things dont come to her doorstep or someone asks her for aid.

Maybe the Agarthians actually believed that they were innocent and Sothis was destroying them because of lulz. But as we have two contradicting versions of history, one from a source that is known for their lies and deception and one who seems not to be.... I bet my money that Sothis version is the correct one. After all in three Houses she never seem really to care if people worship her or not, so i find it hard to believe that that would be a reason to go angry goddess..... but slaugthering her children to (e.g.) harnest their magical power .... that is another story ..... But I am pretty sure that they left such kind of books laying around in the imperial palace for a certain someone to find ....

Yes, but now we have evidence.

Well I havent played the dlc until now, but that would bring a nice new component to the conflict. It brings a lot of backup for Edelgards claim that the manaketes are holding back humanity while on the other side beeing totally reasonable actions from Rheas Point of View. Just imagine beeing one of the few survivors of a nuclear holocaust, taking almost everything that was dear to you .... just to see humans developing the same technologies that brought destruction to the entire world once again... would you really let them do it? Knowing well that this time their is no genereous godess that can heal the wounds of the world when humanity f***s up at some point in the future.

Ok seems my prediction with outselling fates around christmas was a little bit overestimated. We are currently (31.Dec.2019) at 2.58 Million, meaning that they are 360.000 units left to go. But still think it will be most sucessfull (non mobile) FE game.

Exactly my thoughts. Also give them back their abilities as manaketes. Now that I think about it. It also should happen in the Crimson Flower Route. It would give some credibillity to Edelgards claim about evil drgon people controlling the continent.

I think he doesnt really think that she was the mastermind behind the tragedy, but that she helped or supported the guys that did it. When the Flame Emperor asks you to join him asnd that he has nothing to do with the slitherers and you tell that to dimitri he says something like "at least he is affiliated to them, that makes him guilty".