[Mixed Builds - A Thread]

1 hour ago, lenticular said:

I don't really see the attraction for most male gauntlet users to spend time mastering War Monk. Brawl Avoid +20 is a decent skill, for sure, but there aren't very many circumstances where I'd prioritise it over Fierce Iron Fist or Quick Riposte, and I wouldn't expect to be able to hit all three without either NG+ or some serious grinding.

Getting C Faith for a brawler apart from Byleth/Balthus (the minimum rank to get the opportunity to class change) isn't an insignificant hurdle, but I think is achievable even on NG. And yeah, Quick Riposte and Fierce Iron Fist are amazing as well, and getting all three requires 500 Class Exp after Lv 20, which as you say is quite a tough ask. But it's mainly a question of resources allocation/what sacrifices you'll make to get the build. I did this exact build with Byleth on CF, and Byleth got Quick Riposte before the end of Ch. 16, having already gone through WM and Grappler.

In my case, I made Byleth use a Knowledge Gem (and it was the only one I had at the time) whenever I deployed him as a War Monk in order to get him out of that class faster, and I also got every paralogue in the game (so quite a lot of Byleth deployment). And it was worth it - Byleth had avoidance over 90 for the endgame chapters without an Evasion Ring, and from the moment he mastered WM (Chapter 11 or so) he became my premier dodge tank.

Brawl Avo +20 is only needed if you actually want your gauntlets user to be a dodge tank - obviously you can make Master class fliers or your dancer get higher avoidance if you wanted a dodge tank otherwise. But I can't think of any unit in the game that uses Fistbreaker/has advantage against gauntlet users, which means that Byleth's dodge tanking pretty much worked constantly (mages/falcon knights got lucky hits occasionally but that's about it). It's probably only one gauntlet user that's getting it per run, but for that unit at least I would even consider sacrificing Grappler mastery to get Brawl Avo +20. 

1 hour ago, lenticular said:

War Monk and Trickster are both pretty bad, and trying to figure out which one is worse is mostly just splitting hairs

Ultimately yeah, this. 

6 hours ago, Barren said:

Wyvern Lord Sylvain is really better than Paladin Sylvain because Swift Strikes with Lancefaire does more damage than Wyvern Lord Sylvain since Paladins have Lancefaire as a class skill, making the strength class modifier for Paladin an effective +7 as opposed to the Wyvern Lord's +4

It's probably situational. Sylvain will have better speed/avoid and probably better base strength as a WL, as well as unmitigated movement. Paladin has easier access to Mv +1, better Res and Lancefaire (so in theory better output for Swift Strikes). Paladin is hardly bad for Sylvain, although Wyvern Lord probably edges it on balance because fliers are just so amazing in this game. It'll really depend on context though.

[Mixed Builds - A Thread]

6 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Hunter's Volley can hit at range 4 with any bow; combat arts don't care about extended bow range from weapons.

My mistake - was thinking of not being able to hit 5 spaces as a Sniper and got confused. Magic Bow can hit from 4 spaces without a CA is what I should have said - and like you note about enemy units' magical evasion, your Sniper can still hit consistently provided they have Hit +20 and/or a good battalion. Regardless, 4 passive range is helpful for linked attacks, so there is some benefit there.

3 hours ago, lenticular said:

Obviously, you don't need both strengths to make a build work, but there's generally less incentive to try them.

In Awakening, Trickster and War Monk were quite similar in function to what they are in 3H. But unlike 3H, the niche that both provided in Awakening was fairly unique, and everyone who could access the class got enough magic/magic growths to make staves at least a useful support, even though the units weren't the best offensively.

But in 3H, swords are usable in every class - so the incentive to turn magic-oriented units into Tricksters is quite low anyway. As for physical units, Trickster doesn't help their magic enough to make them either a serious threat or a support to rival your actual mages, meaning they're mostly there for growths that aren't significantly better than Assassin's (which is otherwise a better class for sword users anyway). In fairness, Physic and Warp are useful wherever they can be used, 

In contrast, mages can't use gauntlets (not that many would want to, but Aura Knuckles aren't bad at all), women can't use other gauntlet-oriented classes (and some would definitely want to), and as mentioned above War Monk provides a useful mastery skill for physical units, as well as some bulk and a Faire skill. Gauntlet users should still prefer Grappler to end up in, but there's actually more incentive overall for the people who might want War Monk to go WM than there is for people who are suited to Trickster to go Trickster.

15 minutes ago, Barren said:

There's Dark Knight Sylvain which could work because he could function as a dodge tank with black magic and he at least has a decent spell list. Though he's more leaned towards physical classes than magic so getting him to be at least a mixed attacker can be tough pending on RNG

Despite his Reason budding talent, I've heard not-so-good things about Dark Knight Sylvain, basically along the lines of "you're still gonna be spamming Swift Strikes as a Dark Knight, but you won't have the Lancefaire". Across Reason and Faith it appears like his spells have a lot of utility, but I'm not convinced that his magic would hit harder than a Short Spear. Actually they might do with the faire skill, but it's definitely a concern. I wonder if there's any point in making Sylvain a hybrid when Sylvain is so good in physical classes. 

 

[How does my GD Maddening NG+ plan look?]

3 hours ago, paladin21 said:

Marianne's batallion grants hit+40 and damage+5 (physical and magical). I usually run it on Ashe and Bernie to fix the Deadeye art accuracy. I already thought of the Valkyrie mastery skill, but it's a big detour from her usual bow class path (B reason, B riding). It could be achieved for NG+, but not really viable for a regular NG.

Yeah Marianne's battalion is great, but it isn't obvious that Ashe/Bernadetta should be the ones to get it - Deadeye just isn't good enough on its own to justify it (compared to, say, a non-flying axe user, a less accurate mage, or even a different archer). I would also note just from personal experience in my last run that Edmund Troops and Hit +20 still don't give Bernadetta enough of a chance at hitting sword users or fliers beyond 4 spaces away. By enough I mean that while she was at around 60-70 hit with a Killer Bow from 4 spaces against late-game Paladins (which is enough for me), she was only at around 40-50 against late-game Falcon Knights from 4 spaces, and the same against Swordmasters/Assassins (worse if terrain disadvantage). So Deadeye is still a bit too much of a gamble under those circumstances. Perhaps Edmund Troops, Uncanny Blow, Hit +20 and an Accuracy Ring (which together will give +100 to her base hit) are all needed to make Deadeye a consistent threat

For my purposes Valkyrie is completely fine because my next run is gonna be a sandbox run (NG+, and my NG+ chain has a ridiculous amount of renown). But while it's true that Reason is a detour, at most it would mean sacrificing a Bow rank overall. It'd definitely be possible for Bow Knight Bernadetta to run through even on NG, with a bit of advance planning around unlocking her hidden talent and training riding (you only need C Reason and B riding to get the opportunity to qualify into Valkyrie, and Bernadetta wants to get A+ Riding on a Bow Knight even on NG so will be training Riding anyway). Not an issue if you're thinking ahead, hopefully.

[Mixed Builds - A Thread]

47 minutes ago, lenticular said:

Mortal Savant Felix: Meh. He's better in a physical class.

Yeah this is one of the only mixed builds I'd tried before this run, and it was disappointing. Catherine actually does slightly better as a Mortal Savant (but still not worth it for her)

48 minutes ago, lenticular said:

Dark Knight Lorenz: Pretty standard stuff. Frozen lance is good. Having recover on a unit bulky enough to survive a hit and with 7 move is good. He didn't wow me, but I feel this is probably his best build.

Yeah I think you're right - Lorenz isn't quite as powerful with Frozen Lance as most of its other users, but is a bit bulkier. I imagine similar to Hubert, it's a toss-up between Paladin and Dark Knight, and Dark Knight edges it for utility.

54 minutes ago, lenticular said:

Sniper Mercedes: Very strong and fun to use when she actually got going, but was a bit of a slog to get there. On the other hand, I did just put her through fighter -> archer -> sniper since I was mostly messing around on that run, and that's not what I'd do if I was trying to play optimally. Definitely a viable build for her.

Am thinking of doing this for my upcoming BL run - perhaps running her through mage > valkyrie > archer > sniper. Since AM gets every good bow in the game, I figure Mercedes can have Tathlum Bow too and no one else will miss it.

1 hour ago, lenticular said:

War Cleric Catherine: Only a mixed build in the most technical sense. Recover will occasionally come in useful and pneuma gale can sometimes give you range on something you couldn't otherwise reach, but obviously the main reason for this was to give her access to fistfaire. And she is good at punching things.

Yeah am thinking of ending up in War Cleric for Catherine - she can grab Death Blow to prepare and perhaps spend time in Swordmaster/Assassin for the growths.

[How does my GD Maddening NG+ plan look?]

38 minutes ago, paladin21 said:

During my playthroughs, Deadeye had been somewhat useful for me with both Bernardetta and Ashe. It would deal more damage than Curved shot at 3 range, and if needed, it could get greater reach. Since I used them as chippers before my main units would go in to finish the enemy off, I found its utility good enough to propose it. However, I always relied on Hit+20 and Bow Prowess for it to work, otherwise it's a terrible waste.

I really wish bows weren't punished this much on Maddening for extra range, though I do get why - either way, Deadeye tends to require linked attack boosts, gambit help, or some situational advantage to consistently hit beyond 3 spaces on Maddening.

Am incidentally wondering if I could fix Deadeye on Bernadetta in my upcoming BL run by having her master Valkyrie. Uncanny Blow would offset the initial hit penalty for 3 spaces and Hit +20 would offset the hit penalty increase from 3 spaces to 4 spaces. Which means that in theory, a Deadeye hit from 4 spaces shouldn't be innately lower than a normal 2-space attack. Add to that a high-hit battalion, Accuracy Ring and BP5, and I might potentially be able to hit from 5 spaces or even 6 as a Bow Knight? She still probably won't hit sword users, but maybe she has a chance against everything else.

37 minutes ago, paladin21 said:

Yeah, I suppose we have different approaches here, since I'd be using bows more often than you, but I'd give him a Levin+ for sure, like I do to every mixed character I get (like Ingrid or Manuela). However, reaching B in bows would make Yuri eligible for a Magic Bow/Magic Bow+ as well. Did you try using him that way? I think it would be useful for Wyverns at least. I used Mercedes with bows instead black magic in a run, and if she attacked, she would wreck havoc (she's way stronger magically anyway)

So in this run I actually had Hanneman specialise as a Magic Bow Sniper, and his performance was absolutely outstanding - see my thread on mixed builds for details. Even without Hunter's Volley Hanneman did great chip, and I'm sure Yuri could do the same (although of course his magic is worse than Hanneman's). However, unlike Hanneman, Yuri shouldn't tolerate an enemy phase with the avoidance/AS that Magic Bow gives him. Yuri has little problem with dodge-tanking Wyverns with swords anyway. And assuming all other things are equal, the Magic Bow+ will only outclass Levin Sword+ on Yuri when attacking Falcon Knights on player phase - I can understand the impulse to use them, but since Yuri tended to be in range of enemies already, leaving Magic Bow equipped on him is an active demerit for me compared to swords. But yeah, this is clearly just a difference in approach.

[How does my GD Maddening NG+ plan look?]

Just now, samthedigital said:

With good gambit usage and management it's rare that a unit has to take on more than one enemy at a time, and at worst if no unit can deal with enemies  Impregnable Wall works as I mentioned earlier. Enemies move in groups, so luring a single enemy is usually sufficient.

I agree that Impregnable Wall is a brilliant gambit for this, but getting overwhelmed happens a lot in Part I, especially with the early game and the first few paralogues you do. Even once your units get good battalions/charm stats (and dodge-tanking gets better), there are still lots of occasions where enemies are spread out enough, tough enough and mobile enough to overwhelm you. Edelgard's paralogue or Petra's paralogue are good examples (in fairness Edelgard's paralogue is rough full stop). If you are ever attacked from multiple fronts (which happens at least sometimes on Maddening) then only having multiple Impregnable Wall users will save you. And offensive gambits don't solve everything, because some tough units will have high enough charm (or you'll have too low a charm stat) to reliably hit enemies. 

I guess in theory it's possible to play the game on Maddening without anyone being a dodge tank, and NG+ will make that more possible (especially with its supply of battalions for the early game). But not using high-avoidance units on a Maddening run sounds more like a challenge run than a normal tactic, at least because you are frequently not in a position where you can protect your softer units if the enemy is within range on their phase.

[How does my GD Maddening NG+ plan look?]

2 minutes ago, paladin21 said:

Like I said, I don't have much experience with Yuri, and what I wrote was from a theory point of view, so I appreciate your comments about Deadeye in particular and everything about Yuri in general. Having that in mind, I had placed Windsweep as an alternate art. The whole point was having an art to reliably avoid being countered.

I would have done that as well, but I mostly stuck to the class progression @TriforceLegend posted. I think Poison Strike can be good on not-so-heavy hitters, like Yuri or Ignatz.

I see your point, and I was thinking about the extra avoid as an additional countermeasure for when his Crest wouldn't trigger, but Lethality in its place is a solid choice.

Yeah sorry if I sounded aggressive before. I agree that whatever Yuri does, he doesn't want any counters.

5 minutes ago, paladin21 said:

I wouldn't actually invest into Vantage, since most of the time he doesn't have enough power to kill before being killed. I'd use him as a sneak attacker, using swords and bows to hit the enemy from beyond out of their range (or maybe magic, but he lacks a 1-3 range spell, and as a Trickster he wouldn't actually have that many charges). This makes me question myself why I placed Duelist Blow there.

11 minutes ago, paladin21 said:

I'm totally with you here. However, it also depends on how Yuri is intended to be used, either as a finisher or as a chipper, since the former would benefit from using only one weapon type, and the latter from using two

Yeah Vantage was wasted on Yuri. I ran him through Mercenary in my midgame hoping to give him some bulk, which didn't pan out. In terms of the spell/range thing, Yuri should be carrying around a Levin Sword+ regardless of build. His magic isn't amazing, but he can still do his dodgetank thing with it, and it did better than Rapier+ against armours/cavs throughout the game (Rapier+ is great though). 

I found (having trained his Bows to B) that bows just weren't that helpful. Curved Shot with a Mini Bow+ is basically all he needs as an assassin - it will hit without Bow Prowess, and although it can't double from one space, I found its higher crit and not needing a skill slot for Close Counter worth the sacrifice on the rare occasion where Yuri had to have an enemy phase after using Curved Shot. In the first place, Curved Shot was a safety mechanism for if/when Levin Sword+ didn't hit, and I suppose Bow Prowess is useful in that every little helps. But the sword skills benefit Yuri (I think more tangibly) by enhancing Windsweep/dodgetanking - Yuri has great crit, but even his crits don't kill Maddening enemies late-game. While I suppose after a certain threshold it doesn't matter how much chip damage you do, that threshold is quite variable - I'd prefer to maximise Yuri's sword output (regardless of whether it ends up killing or not) rather than spend that skill slot increasing a Curved Shot hit by 8 or 10.

[How does my GD Maddening NG+ plan look?]

2 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

It takes 25 Strength to not get weighed down by a basic Iron Sword. At pretty much every point in the game, Weight -3 is going to be a relavant skill. 

Even if a unit wanted to equip a Training Weapon for extra AS, it'd still be useful in preventing units from getting weighed down by Shields and help out their durability by a substancal amount.

On top of that, it allows unit with C Axes to take the Armor Knight Certifaction. That gives any unit a base 12 Defense regardless of how bad their defense was previously in any class of their choosing. 

The Armor Classes may be pretty bad in this game, but the skill is most certainly worth investing in.

Agreed. Wt -3 increases most units' AS and avoid more than Speed +2 can throughout your run. The only reasons to run Spd +2 instead of Wt -3 is if the unit has Lance Jab, which scales on Speed, or if the unit is already strong enough not to suffer penalties from weapons (brawling units for example).

Every unit has options better than armour to spend time in, and Great Knight (with its high certification requirements) is the only one that's remotely usable in combat. But if you do end up getting a unit with Wt -5 (and I'm not recommending that you train armour to A+ for that exact purpose, this is only if you happen to get there naturally) you'll find that combined with Strength boosts/growths from armoured classes, they suffer no AS/avoid penalty for every weapon, (though potentially a heavy weapon and a heavy shield might be too much). 

21 hours ago, samthedigital said:

You probably won't do a lot of dodge tanking either

This is just not true.

Or at least, I found that without ridiculously slow tactics like turtling, dodge tanks have to be employed on Maddening. I'm not a fan of them because Fire Emblem is one of those cursed series where enemies will kill you with 10% hit rates and you'll miss a kill with a 90% hit rate far more often than seems likely, but some missions all but demand them. Sometimes turtling isn't even an option because you can't protect your squishy units from Pass/fliers/archers/ambushes - dodge tanks aren't perfect, but you ought to develop at least a couple because they make many maps a lot easier.

You won't develop a serious def tank outside of Dedue until the late game - I actually managed it with Sylvain by running him through Fortress and GK to get Pavise and Wt -5, and then gave him Aegis Shield and a high-Prt battalion. But even then Sylvain regularly takes damage from any unit that doesn't use swords or fists - dodge-tanking is the way to go, and can be utilised much earlier on Maddening than def-tanking. 

I also use predominantly player phase tactics, but there are so many enemies on Maddening, and reinforcements move on the turn they arrive, so it can be very tough to bait selectively and not die. So having someone reliably dodge things is often the best way to ensure that you can have a profitable player phase, otherwise you end up overwhelmed in your player phase or with casualties

On 6/7/2020 at 6:16 PM, TriforceLegend said:

Yuri - Trickster

I've just done a Maddening run, and can safely assure you that Assassin is better than Trickster for Yuri. Yuri has a weird spell list which seems quite attack-oriented but is fairly useless on its own - the spells are only good when they double because Yuri's mag growths are so-so, and while Yuri himself gets some of the best speed in the game, you aren't doubling anything that has a sword or flies pretty much ever. And you faster primary mages (i.e. Constance) will be able to double the enemies Yuri can double with magic, so he doesn't add anything except Silence which is situational.

8 hours ago, paladin21 said:

• Sword Prowess
• Bow Prowess
• HP+5 >>> Duelist Blow
• Speed+2
• Steal/Lethality/Close Counter/Axebreaker >>> Hit+20 (if getting archer along the way)
  • Wrath Strike >>> Finesse Blade
  • Curved Shot
  • Deadeye (this art gets mixed reviews since you lose accuracy with range; however, if you master archer, it gets better)/Windsweep (if you'd rather focus on swords)

I also can't recommend this - Yuri should have Curved Shot as a reliable way to hit threes, but he shouldn't seriously invest in Bows unless he's going for Sniper and Hunter's Volley. Deadeye is all but useless on Maddening - Yuri has good hit but even Hit +20 won't allow him to hit consistently further than Curved Shot. My Yuri build was as follows:

Skills: Sword Prowess, Axebreaker, Lethality, Poison Strike, Vantage. CAs: Curved Shot, Finesse Blade, Windsweep (and Assassinate). Stick his Relic on him if you don't want to give it to Dancer Marianne, but otherwise a Crit/Evasion Ring is nice.

As you can see I ran Yuri through Dark Mage - it isn't hard for him, and Poison Strike adds some much needed bite to his attacks. Lethality is worth a skill slot because why not, but Duelist's Blow is pretty useless (it was fun in CS, but it won't stop anyone who was already gonna hit a sword user from hitting, and it makes little sense to boost player phase avoidance in general).Vantage isn't necessary at all, because with his relic and his speed stat we're hoping never to sink below 50% health on enemy phase, but is there just in case he can crit someone before they kill him.

Replacement skills can be HP +5/ Str +2 (Yuri wants help for Strength mainly, but HP/Def/Res as well, because if something gets through his dodge-tanking past midgame he's gonna die). Yuri is also a great candidate for Wt -3, and because of his low strength it finds immediate utility in increasing his avoidance (you should expect 70+ avoidance from him by endgame). If you can get Sword Crit +10/Swordfaire then definitely use the remaining slot on those in the late-game.

[Mixed Builds - A Thread]

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Nifty! Definitely going to have to try that Hanneman build at some point. How do you feel he compares to generic physical snipers like Shamir, etc.?

Sniper is still a great class even on low-Str physical builds like with Ignatz, and obviously characters like Shamir are built for Sniper so do great in it, but Hanneman is better than all of them. I normally don't bring more than one Sniper into an endgame team, and Hanneman beats the other Snipers I've had because of a few reasons.

1. Magic Bow+ is one of only a couple of bows in the game that can hit 3 spaces without CAs/class skills, which means that Hunter's Volley can hit from 4 spaces (which is the Sniper's max range, and you can only otherwise hit twice from that range with a Longbow or Failnaught). 

2. The fact that Res stats still remain middling to low for most Maddening enemies means that Magic Bow's output is consistently high. There aren't many high-Mt bows (especially on Black Eagles routes) which means that sometimes Hunter's Volley has to rely on the crit to get the kill. Hanneman is just a bit more surefire (his Mag and Dex weren't as good as my other mages and bow users respectively, but with a decent battalion he was still reliably getting kills where they weren't).

3. Hanneman developed a unique and unexpected niche fighting monsters. When I started his build I ran him through Dark Mage without really thinking about it, but as a Sniper it means that  he could delete an entire bar of health for a monster with Hunter's Volley (without counter mostly) and then Poison Strike chips on the next bar. In theory your other male snipers can do that too, but given how tough some monsters are on Maddening and how easy it was to run Hanneman through Dark Mage, I think he's best placed to do that.

However, Hanneman's other CAs aren't all that special (Schism Shot and Ward Arrow have the same stats, so the only reason to run the latter over the former is in a mage-heavy map like CF Ch.16, and even then Hanneman is still capable of outright killing mages with HV so they're pointless). And Shamir saw use as a sniper who could fight back (Hanneman cannot be allowed in range of Falcon Knights and the like, although he can kill them on Player Phase). But yeah, Hanneman edges it for me.

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I also second your feelings about Trickster. It's a class I thought would be cool based on CS but it turns out if you take away Fetters of Dromi from it (and you should) and let it compete against other units who have their own (admittedly inferior) movement skills like Reposition, it's kinda bleh.

In theory War Monk ought to be worse, but weirdly this run saw me love War Monk (I only used it with Byleth on the way to a Fists build, which is probably why) and hate Trickster. Duelist's Blow has remarkably little use - if you're doing your Player Phase right, then units who get Duelist's Blow shouldn't be taking enemy counters anyway because they're getting the kill or hitting from range. And obviously it just takes up a skill slot on Enemy Phase. Foul Play was fun though, and although it would be game-breaking if it weren't class-locked, I wish anyone could get it.

27 minutes ago, Anathaco said:

My personal favourite was my SS Cyril build. This was purely for the meme, but I ran him as my dedicated Bolt Axe Wyvern. His magic stat is surprisingly decent, plus his high speed + good strength lets him double consistently, and he has great Dex to hit consistently as well. 
Definitely wouldn’t recommend it in any kind of optimal run, but it was super effective once it got up and running (around the Bridge of Myrddin). Plus he can always switch to bows or axes to hit high res units

I actually ended up giving Edelgard a Bolt Axe+ in the lategame with the same thoughts. I didn't count it as a mixed build because I made zero effort to optimise her for it, but she was doubling often too (and Wt -5 meant she didn't suffer any penalties for using it), and the magic hit formula actually helps her hit rate a bit - Bolt Axe+ ended up being more accurate than any other ranged option she had barring a Hand Axe+. Of course, her hit is still shaky, but Bolt Axe+ was definitely capable of getting the kill. Did you do anything to optimise Cyril for Bolt Axe?

[Mixed Builds - A Thread]

So I just finished (finally) my Maddening CF run, and this was my first run with all the DLC content. So I used it as an opportunity to test out some mixed builds (magic weapons/CAs in physical classes, or straight-up hybrids using spells and weapons). I've rated the characters I tried out below on how well they fit their builds (deeper analysis in the spoiler brackets), and I'd love to hear what mixed builds other people have tried out/how I could better optimise mixed builds for my upcoming Maddening BL run.

Hubert - 8.5/10

Spoiler

Progression: Monk > Mage > Cavalier > Paladin (> Dark Knight)

Skills as Paladin: Lance Prowess, Swordbreaker, Fiendish Blow, Magic +2, Mv +1

Taking advantage of Frozen Lance alongside Paladin is probably the most common mixed build there is, and for good reason. Hubert already has one of the best magic stats in the game, and Frozen Lance Paladin with a Silver Lance+ is a fairly reliable OHKO up until Ch. 16 or so. Arrow of Indra+ is amazing on him and it's a shame that the refined weapon is locked to CF. However, his hit rate is a bit shaky. 

The reason Hubert doesn't score higher is only because his utility is significantly increased with Dark Knight. Paladin makes Hubert far less fragile than a normal mage progression would, but he still can't be left on the frontlines, and terrain struggles in the late-game mean that Dark Knight can fight much more safely. On top of that, when I took him out of Paladin I gave him Caduceus Staff and Dark Magic Range +1, allowing him to hit from 5 spaces, and he also gets Recover if you can be bothered to fight his Faith disadvantage. I don't think Paladin was optimal, but Arrow of Indra in particular made Hubert a force to be dealt with.

Jeritza - 7/10

Spoiler

Progression: Death Knight (got Brigand but otherwise stayed in his class)

Skills as (hybrid) Death Knight: Lance Prowess, Reason Lv, Death Blow, Darting Blow, Mv +1

I should clarify a couple of things: 1) I decided halfway through Part II that magic on Jeritza wasn't really necessary, otherwise I would have done the normal things for a mage build. The above set of skills were not his final set of skills, just a mixture that I was messing around with when I was entertaining a hybrid. 2) Jeritza is insanely good, with or without magic.

Jeritza absolutely doesn't need magic - his endgame build was lances-focused, and he does just fine. But getting him to B Reason and D Faith wasn't wasted at all. He gets a 7/10 because he's strong enough and fast enough to double even with Thoron/Death, which with his personal means reliable magical chip from 3 spaces. As far as I'm concerned, the magic was more of a bonus than something he needed, and even the Heals came in handy situationally, because Jeritza can heal someone on the frontlines in a pinch and survive the following enemy phase. He's significantly better as a physical attacker, so he doesn't get more than a 7/10, but it isn't worth him focusing on magic anyway because his S/S+ Reason skills only apply to Death Γ, which has 4 uses in the Death Knight class anyway.

Dorothea - 5.5/10

Spoiler

Progression: Monk > Mage > Trickster

Skills as Trickster: Sword Prowess, Reason Lv, Fiendish Blow, Axebreaker, Magic+2 (or Duelist's Blow)

If there's any takeaway from this run, it is that Trickster is entirely underwhelming as a class. Dorothea made the best of it thanks to a mixture of Hexblade, a great Reason spell list and Physic, meaning that she actually did function as a proper hybrid. However, it felt pretty pointless to train her in swords because she didn't have an enemy phase. 

 

Manuela - 4/10

Spoiler

Progression: Monk > Thief > Trickster

Skills as Trickster: Sword Prowess, Faith Lv, Axebreaker, Steal, Mag +2

Manuela's Reason weakness means that attempting to get Bolting in a CF run is pointless unless you've already decided she's gonna make your endgame team. In fairness to Manuela, she had decent speed growths and not-bad damage output with Hexblade, as well as (just barely) having an enemy phase. However, she wasn't fast enough to dodge tank, powerful enough to OHKO, or versatile enough to do much other than hold a Levin Sword+. Silence saw a bit of use, but Ward is fairly useless in the midgame (except a couple of niche chapters like Flayn's paralogue), and I gave up on her before she got Warp - it would have made her more useful, but not enough to justify using her up to that point.

Ingrid - 5/10

Spoiler

Progression: Myrmidon > Monk > Mercenary > Mage > Trickster > Assassin/Swordsmaster

Endgame Skills: Sword Prowess, Fiendish Blow, Axebreaker, Mag +2, Speed +2 

If that skill set looks sub-optimal, that's because she only made my endgame team as Sylvain's adjutant. The whole reason I started on this mixed builds idea was because Ingrid did great in VW but lacked killing power, and I wondered if optimising magical weapons would be better for her in the long run. I realise the obvious way to go would have been with lances, but my endgame plan already had three lance users, and this way Ingrid was only competing with Yuri for her endgame slot as sword chipper.

Levin Sword+ in general is a great weapon, and Ingrid still manages to pull off dodge tank shenanigans with it, particularly against Wyverns (and there are a lot of them in CF midgame). She's bulky enough to have a proper enemy phase even if she does take a hit, and has a good spell list. The reason I didn't rate her higher was because I was disappointed. I had planned for her to make my endgame team, but not only was her damage output still middling (and A rank for Hexblade is a ridiculous amount of time for very little reward) but her dodge tanking was only situational - brawlers were still hitting her regularly, for example, and she only managed to bait non-axe enemies successfully on a couple of occasions. Despite being OK overall, she was the biggest example of wasted potential on my run - I wouldn't recommend.

Ignatz - 9/10

Spoiler

Progression: Monk > Mage > Trickster > Mortal Savant > Dancer

Endgame Skills: Special Dance, Sword Prowess, Sword Avoid+20, Fiendish Blow, Axebreaker

I'm partial to Ignatz anyway, but I can recognise the only reason he rates so much higher than the other sword users on here was because I certed him as Dancer. Ignatz became what all the other Levin Sword+ users wanted to be. His Mag output still wasn't quite enough to kill enemies he couldn't double (or even some that he could) but actually pulling off the dodge tank build meant that it didn't matter. He's come in clutch a lot for me, and was surprisingly both Speed and Charm-blessed on my playthrough, despite spending a lot of time in MS and having poor Charm growths. The result was avoid over 90, and even though I classed him back into dancer for Endgame, he was great as a hybrid the entire way through (Physic and his personal really helped). The reason he doesn't get a perfect 10 is because dodge-tanking with swords still isn't a sure thing, and neither his HP nor his def/res were good enough for him to take even one hit. Of course, seeing as he didn't end up fulfilling a combat role I don't mind too much.

Hanneman - 10/10

Spoiler

Progression: Mage > Dark Mage > Archer > Sniper

Endgame Skills: Bow Prowess, Bow Crit +10, Hit +20, Fiendish Blow, Poison Strike

HOLY FUCK!!! I never in my life expected to be writing an appreciation post for Hanneman. In the first place, I wasn't even planning on using him after his paralogue, he didn't leave a strong impression on me in my previous playthroughs in terms of gameplay or story, and I was stuck for what to do with him until I remembered his Indech Crest, and thought maybe he should try using weapons. Thank God that I did - Sniper is potentially the best infantry class anyway, but Hanneman really takes it to new levels. Hanneman gets a 10/10 because I think Sniper is the best class that he can have, and here's why.

Hanneman is an average mage in general. His spell list is roughly comparable to Dorothea's, although she gets Meteor earlier and Physic >> Recover. However, Hanneman is also more fragile, slower and has lower charm than Dorothea -  and she isn't even particularly amazing as a mage. Add in how much male mages are screwed over in this game and it's easy to see why Hanneman gets consigned to the bench pretty quickly. Normally, he'd go either Warlock or Dark Knight. I think Warlock is slightly better for him overall, and what tips it is two charges of Meteor rather than one in Dark Knight. Warlock also nets him 8 charges of Thoron, one of the best spells in the game. The Magic Bow+, however, is fairly comparable to Thoron (Thoron has +1 Mt, +10 Crit, -2 Wt in comparison). But when the Magic Bow+ is paired with Hunter's Volley, it machines through nearly everybody. On my CF playthrough Rhea and a couple of Dark Knights in Ch. 17 were the only units in the whole game that couldn't get ORKO'd by Hanneman. And unlike most nukes in the game (Swift Strikes Sylvain, Lysithea etc.) Hanneman strikes the perfect balance between having enough uses for the build to be consistently viable, and being able to hit up to four spaces. See below for Hanneman ORKOing Dimitri. 

IMG_3924.HEIC

There are some costs to the build, however. Sniper fixes some of Hanneman's stat issues (like poor Str) but he still won't take a hit, not that you should be expecting him to. Hanneman's Strength was fixed enough for him to be dealing Phys damage to non-armours with a Mini Bow+ (he uses Inexhaustible just fine as well). However, before B Rank Bows Hanneman is useless without Magic. He dealt zero damage with a Steel Bow against the rampaging villagers in Remire. Magic Bow benefits from CAs and more uses, so overall it's a better choice than Thoron I think, but Hanneman is also still unlikely to ORKO without Hunter's Volley, meaning that Hanneman doesn't start becoming a machine before Ch. 14 or so (and ideally he gets both Hit +20 and Fiendish Blow before then too).

Other potential candidates for this build, like Hubert and Mercedes, would have to work even harder at getting there; Hanneman arrives with C+ Bows and a boon in Bows but even then it's a labour to get him to B so he can start using Magic Bows. Maddening early game can punish you for training your mages in bows, but it's an extremely rewarding build to get in the end.

 

Special shout-out goes to Flayn, who I put in Pegasus Knight so that she could train her Lance rank up to A for Frozen Lance, but then couldn't be bothered to do that before Ch. 11, so I made her wander about Triangle Attacking everybody for no reason.

[Byleth End Game Class Build]

51 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Firece Iron Fist grants +10 Crit and +1 attack. So the difference between Warmaster and Grappler is +3 Strength and +10 Crit versus guaranteed Triple hits and the ability to walk through rough terrain like without forest without penalty.

Don't forget Quick Riposte - of course, once you get it it becomes a question of whether you want your unit to be more player-phase oriented (Grappler) or enemy-phase oriented (WM, the crit+20 boost is passive)

Does Quick Riposte have synergy with Battalion Vantage? That sounds super broken if it does, but I have to agree otherwise that Vantage only matters if/when your counter can one shot an enemy.

[Qestion about Four Apostles (spoiler)]

5 hours ago, Timlugia said:

If they were humans, why were they on the side of Seiros rather than Nemesis or 10 Elites?

- If they were humans, why were their crest named after themselves rather than the dragon who the blood originally came from?

The Chalice of Beginnings ritual happens a decent while after the war - it's likely that the Apostles got their crests after the war (like we presume about people who got crests from the Saints) but it was the original Nabateans who fought in the war (perhaps they fought in the war without Crests and were rewarded with them or something).

Aubin at least is first-gen, and although we can't confirm that the other Apostles were, the Elites gave their names to their crests as first-gen bearers, which would explain the naming system.

 

 

[Byleth End Game Class Build]

Your entire comment is full of good advice - anything I don't already do I will be learning from in my next serious playthrough.

The big difference between our play styles is that I don't decide who makes my endgame team until quite late (normally midway through part 2, after units start getting master classes). It means that I'm planning, and attempting to carry out, specific builds for every character I recruit (which now that I'm experienced in the game means the majority of them), and giving them lots of time to 'prove themselves' through performance (I tend not to decide my endgame build based on the characters I like the most). Obviously on NG Maddening that just makes my life harder (not by a ton, though it obviously is less efficient), but I acknowledge that my preferred way of playing the game is not the most optimal. 

[Byleth End Game Class Build]

19 minutes ago, SumG said:

On maddening I've never had too much issue with getting to S+ with anyone in my most regularly used units, even on NG.  But I will cede that when I play I will usually focus on 15 or so units to primarily use.  This allows me focus a bit more on training sessions and use in auxiliary battles.  But I've never resorted to using a rusted/broken weapon to grind out weapon xp.  If you're using more units, it may be more difficult.  Additionally, I generally find it to be easier to achieve S+ ranks on maddening despite the lower weapon xp gains just due to the presence of more and harder enemies.

The bolded part probably explains it - I tend to recruit as much as possible even on Maddening, and I'll try to raise paralogue units up until their paralogue even if they won't be part of my endgame team, which means my Part I is more diluted for everyone. I try not to lean on individual characters until I finish up with paralogues for good, and if I'm playing with a NG+ chain then I try and give every recruited character at least one mastery in an advanced class. So yeah, I've never seriously attempted to go for S+ before, or streamlined my army from an early stage so that it's easier to get.

Agreed also that Maddening is the easiest difficulty to raise weapon ranks on, by far.

[Byleth End Game Class Build]

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I still think you're overestimating how quickly Alert Stance is going to be relevant. I dunno about you, but the units I'm using would likely have their main weapon ranks well above their flying rank forever. Even if they have boons in flying. Unless you prioritize flying rank like crazy, which does not help me in the slightest, and in fact might hurt me depending on what my plans are.

I don't know - in general I find getting to S+ to be an impractical notion outside of NG+ unless you overspecialize, which is a bad thing, last I checked. Also, honestly, I don't really see the appeal of cavalry classes that aren't Paladin or Bow Knight.

Yeah I've never achieved S+ without abusing aux battles, although Byleth on non-CF routes could definitely manage S+ I think. I suppose that may just be my lack of skill as a player. But if you can do it, having two Faire skills for one weapon vastly outclasses wielding a secondary weapon, unless that secondary is bows and you are a flier (and even then, the unit isn't obviously better, it'll depend on context). 

Alert Stance+ is definitely possible on a NG playthrough, although I'd imagine it would require a pretty strict schedule (Pegasus-Wyvern-Master Class for women, and a good amount of extra flying teaching for men) and even then I can't see it becoming available before Ch. 18 (assuming that you aren't really leaning on that flier beforehand). So yeah, limited utility, but on an NG playthrough all of your fliers will get normal Alert Stance, and it's only a minimum of one, particularly dodgy, flier who wants/needs Alert Stance+. It's definitely useful enough to warrant getting, and achievable enough to plan for. 

21 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

This is even more true on Azure Moon, where there are all of two (three if you have DLC).

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I'd rather have, say, an Assassin with Brigid Hunters than be overloaded on fliers such that some have to use lesser battalions.

Paralogues that are automatically available (Ingrid and Flayn) net you the two that I assume you're referring to, then there's the default Seiros/Kingdom flier battalions and then the DLC (which also gives two useful flying battalions from Constance and Anna) . The D-rank flier battalions are obviously not as good as the average B-rank battalion, let alone the better flying battalions, but they aren't so bad as to put you off running fliers entirely - and a flier with Alert Stance+ and Seiros Pegasus still makes dodge-tanking more reliable than an Assassin with Brigid Hunters. 

 

[Who should have betrayed their faction?]

1 hour ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Back to the actual topic at hand, someone I don't see many people mentioning as a possibility of changing sides is Kronya. Yeah she's a murderous psychopath, but imagine if she had lived instead of being immediately boinked by Solon. If she'd managed to escape, it's possible that she would've realized just how little they actually cared for her. I don't see her joining with the heroes, or said heroes accepting her because she's Kronya, but it's entirely possible she'd leave the Agarthans after that

From a practical standpoint, I don't think she would have survived long enough to oppose the Agarthans in any meaningful way. Thales rocking up in Ch.9 seems more like a deus ex machina than anything else, given how his ability to interfere with Divine Pulses isn't brought up again, but I don't see how Thales with those powers lets a relatively high-ranking Agarthan like Kronya survive, when her surviving means not only the potential for Rhea to learn too much about the Agarthans, but her actively failing to perform the role Thales intended for her.

It's also unclear how ideologically sincere the Agarthan characters all are - Kronya may genuinely believe Nabateans and their allies are so trash that she'd do Agarthan things just because, or to get back in Thales' favour.

[Who should have betrayed their faction?]

27 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

It does seem to me that Jeritza has no real dedication to any cause, but would more or less fight for anyone as long as they provide an opportunity for him to exercise his combat skills. Which is why he also follows Arundel after Edelgard lends him over to him. Even joining in at Remire village, which happens against Edelgard's orders

Presumably Edelgard, even in lending him to Arundel, orders Jeritza to follow certain instructions. Which is why he doesn't care about the orders from the Western Church/TWSITD mage in Ch. 4. And his arc in Part I seems a little more Byleth-focused. He gets intrigued in Byleth after they pick up SotC, then the Flame Emperor prevents him from going all out on Byleth a couple of months later. It seems to me (and his dialogue throughout Ch. 8 would confirm) that he's only really in Remire to try and fight Byleth, rather than to protect Tomas. On Maddening, Tomas takes advantage of that and scurries off after the Death Knight, but the Death Knight doesn't really move to protect him at any point, simply charging forwards. Point being, he does what Edelgard says, but only fights for himself outside of that - if that happens to coincide with someone else's aims then so be it.

42 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Personally, I do actually think that holding compassion for more people is inherently more good. To refuse sympathy and compassion for certain people is dehumanisation and dehumanisation is the root of many of the worst acts ever committed by humanity. I don't think punitive justice, and eye for an eye is good at all, as the motive for it (vengeance) is inherently self-serving and sadistic. To enjoy inflicting suffering upon someone, regardless of what they have done this in my view inherently evil.

But in my mind being good in the first place is very closely tied to having empathy for people, therefore my definition of evil is lack of empathy. Which is closely connected to defining good as altruism and evil as selfishness. Good and evil are such nebulous terms, so it is probably for the best that I define my definition of good and evil. 

Yeah I figured it would be for you, and it's a good thing you stated it like this, because often it comes across (probably unintentionally) that your arguments about a character's goodness are somehow objective, or at least that you expect a majority to agree and weight all these qualities in the same way you do. As long as you're happy that at least some people are going to disagree with you on a fundamental level, and that those kinds of differences won't be resolved by debate, then yeah go wild with knocking Dimitri or whatever.

[Who should have betrayed their faction?]

2 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't Jeritza's psychosis basically require him to kill? What I am essentially suggesting here, is that if Edelgard didn't provide him with "hunting grounds" and targets for his Death Knight persona to kill. If it wasn't for this he would target people at random and be a danger for basically the entire population of Fodlan. Making him a soldier for her cause provides him with an outlet for his bloodlust that doesn't endanger citizens of the Empire.

Maybe it isn't the best for Jeritza as it still encourages his murderous tendencies, something he probably shouldn't be embracing. But any regular monarch would have just killed someone like him because of the danger they pose. So I do consider Edelgard bearing his life and making use of them to be a mercy. 

To my understanding, Emelie snapped after his father revealed his plan to force Mercedes to marry him, giving birth to his Death Knight personality when he killed his father in a violent rage. The only person who has ever managed to get Jeritza to give up being the Death Knight is Mercedes. Edelgard wouldn't be capable of doing so. So her choices would be to either kill him or make use of him. But I am uncertain of when he started working for Edelgard, and if he possibly killed more people in between him killing his father and him becoming a soldier for the Empire.

I just used this as an example of Edelgard showing more mercy to a criminal than Dimitri ever would. It seems like she shows more sympathy to such people, and understand that circumstances can drive people to banditry considering she is far more relaxed about working with such people than I would expect of Dimitri. She isn't usually interested in judgement and therefore can be seen as more merciful.

Jeritza is a useful military tool. He becomes loyal to Edelgard personally, and is an effective fighter and general (putting aside the gameplay mechanics of how you beat the shit out of him like, up to 7 times in VW). While he is temperamental and murderous, he follows whatever orders Edelgard gives herself - his obstructionism rears its head mainly with respect to TWSITD, which suits Edelgard just fine. So Edelgard, in contracting Jeritza to fight for her, did the logically correct thing in accomplishing her goals, something which hindsight guarantees as the right call. Mercy has nothing to do with it, as far as I can see - it's a profit-loss calculation, and Edelgard sees greater profit in keeping Jeritza alive and indebted to her than dead. As far as Edelgard herself is concerned, she did the right thing, because she did what was best for her - if compassion or mercy was involved (and there is no evidence to suggest that it was) then it was entirely incidental/secondary.

Jeritza, however, was in no position to refuse Edelgard's offer - that's what happens when you kill a noble (no matter how crappy they are). 

That doesn't change the fact that the situation Edelgard placed him in is one that entirely exacerbates his already fragile mental state. While we don't know the exact timescale between Jeritza killing his father and joining Edelgard, we do know that he killed his father in a rage. It's a precursor to the Death Knight personality, but it is not the Death Knight. The Death Knight is an example of Jeritza somehow harnessing a fragment of his personality and murderous instincts for use in battle, shown by the donning of the mask.  But Jeritza did not choose to snap at the moment of killing his father. The incidents share similarities, like memory loss, and it's clear that this event ultimately led to the existence of the Death Knight. However it did not inevitably lead to the existence of the Death Knight. It is serving Edelgard that allowed Jeritza to habitually access this dysfunctional part of himself, and gave him an excuse to run free with it. In a world without mental health provision, that might seem like an acceptable release, but it most certainly is not. Throwing someone with a burgeoning dissociative personality disorder into violent situations is Bad Psych 101, and it is entirely Jeritza's status as a killing machine that gives him the leeway to endorse his own murderous urges. When your value is already defined as your role as killing machine, it is not only easy but likely that you adapt yourself to fit that new role. We see that exact process in the journey of the Death Knight in 3H. He never takes off his mask in non-CF routes because his entire reason for existing (on the battlefield, but also continuing to exist at all) is to kill - Edelgard's enemies just happen to be the people he's allowed to kill without punishment. 

Unless, of course, you complete Mercedes' paralogue - as an important person from his past, Mercedes has the ability to make him re-access his Jeritza personality, even if only briefly (she doesn't have the access or the opportunity to break down the Death Knight's walls any further than that). He doesn't remove his mask in CF pre-DLC either, although the DLC (presumably to cut corners/because you have so little time in Part II) decides to just reintroduce him without his mask, and no prior explanation of why he turns up and why he took off his mask in the first place, apart from gameplay convenience. But the DLC only confirms what being a tool of war has done to him - he is at first only capable of valuing others in terms of battle potential (hence his original attraction to Byleth), and as such is almost incapable of human connection even with people he spends a lot of time with, like his subordinates. He is constantly at risk of losing control over his actions (as seen where he goes Death Knight on Mercedes) despite Jeritza actively disliking who he is as the Death Knight. His Byleth A-rank is entirely couched in the language of murder and violence, despite the emotions behind them being that of attraction and connection. These unhealthy behaviours and his inability to communicate effectively began in him because of a traumatic childhood, but were ingrained in him through years spent existing purely for the purpose to murder on command - of course he develops an unhealthy attachment to killing and a whole personality developed around it when those actions are the ones reinforced by the only presence he accepts as having any kind of power over him. 

Tying this to my original thread, if it were in Jeritza's power to do so, he should turn his back on the war in a heartbeat. Beyond his contractual obligation he has no real reason to fight for Edelgard, especially when one of the costs is Mercedes' death. Of course, not only does he value holding up his end of the bargain, but it seems likely that Edelgard is providing him carte blanche immunity in return for working for her, so Jeritza really has little choice in the matter anyway - but it remains that he should betray Edelgard and not fight for the Empire, although he isn't in a position where he can.

Now I'm pretty wary about speaking on Dimitri (because as you know I haven't played AM yet) but it seems like he is simply more rigid about morality. He can't stomach working with evil even if their goals coincide with his own, and he is less open-minded/relativistic in general. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's just different to Edelgard. Having sympathy/compassion for more groups of people doesn't necessarily make you a 'better person', although I'd be the first to accept that opinions will and should differ on that. What I will say is that the fact that Dimitri would be more likely to punish Jeritza (and execution is potentially, but not necessarily, the result of such punishment) doesn't make him inherently worse than Edelgard. Feel free to argue that Edelgard is worse or better, just don't use Jeritza as evidence for that claim.

[Who should have betrayed their faction?]

7 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I have thought that Dimitri had a certain similarity to Jeritza. Who also have a need for violence due to severe mental issues. But Edelgard gave him and his need for bloodshed a place within the Imperial hierarchy as a soldier. So his mentality was put to use for the sake of the war effort. The greatest problem he faces is what he would do once the war is over, would Edelgard's peaceful utopia still have room for a person like him? Maybe if Dimitri wasn't born as king, he might have been better off in a similar position as Jeritza, channelling his bloodlust into his role as a soldier. In another life he could easily have had the same role as the Death Knight.

I can't speak for Jeritza's similarity to Dimitri, but I want to make sure you aren't suggesting that Edelgard handled Jeritza in the best way, or even in a particularly good way. Jeritza's entire life is one huge catastrophe, and Edelgard didn't save him from any of it - in fact she amplified his trauma. I'm not saying that she was under any obligation to help him, or that hurting him was her intention. But joining Edelgard just did not help Jeritza - it was certainly beneficial for Edelgard, but let's not imply that it was an equally beneficial relationship, or that any of the situations Jeritza was placed in were good for him.

[Byleth End Game Class Build]

In fairness, master class flying units can be certified into from rank C flying (provided they've met their other proficiency targets, which are certainly easier to reach) so it's not a given that any unit is gonna reach A+ flying by endgame.

Alert Stance+ is only worth getting (without NG+) if you want a flier dodge tank. But Maddening all but necessitates some form of tanking, and Dedue is the only unit who could even potentially def-tank a Maddening enemy phase before the late-game (Great Knights with heavy shields, high-Prt battalions and potentially Pavise too can do it in the late game, but def-tanking in general isn't the trustiest of methods). Meaning you'll want at least one really high-avoid build, if not more. And fliers are the easiest units to get high avoid from, so it makes sense to train for Alert Stance+ for at least that flier. Obviously it isn't absolutely necessary, but pretty much no skill is. 

[I’ve painted myself in to a corner, Halp!]

just remember it also requires the thief certification (which is fine for you, but it means you can't class into trickster straightaway). You definitely get the opportunity to class into Trickster once you get B rank in one weapon and C rank in the other, so pouring everything into Faith (and temporarily reclassing Marianne into Priest if you have the cert) could make Trickster accessible by the time two in-game weeks have passed (one week for Thief cert, the second for Trickster).

[Who should have betrayed their faction?]

9 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I mean, Byleth literally tells Edelgard, to her face, that he was blessed by the goddess, and Edelgard tells him that she intends to oppose the Church that worships the goddess. She expresses it at the end the deeper case, but she always gave him an out while explaining her own intentions. The fact of the matter is that Edelgard doesn't shy away from expressing what Byleth being by her side entails and how she's giving him an out with it in mind. 

She only explains her reasons only when he sides with her, in a point when she doesn't believe he would side with her.

It's why his decision to protect her is so shocking. Hell, she even says before he made his choice that she knew that she and him would be in opposition.

Yep I don't disagree with this. Your comment I've quoted here doesn't contradict what I said earlier either, and both can be true at the same time.

Out of interest is there any particular reason you defend Edelgard so intensely?

 

 

Returning to the thread, what do people think of the (semi-serious) case for Anna "betraying her faction"? Anna is unlike almost every other character in the game, in that she is available to recruit in Part I or Part II, and her recruitment conditions are only:

1. Complete Ch. 2 

2. Be in Garreg Mach

So she is the only character who canonically sides with Byleth on every route, since the faction that Byleth joins inevitably occupies Garreg Mach in Part II. Her motivations for fighting with you are pretty mild (she just wants to do research, she claims), and she promises to make it worth your while. So in this case, for her to betray her faction, would be for her to aid whichever side Byleth opposes.

Her motivations in general are to make money, and collect rare items. The best way for her to make the most money (and gain access to information) would be to play both sides - sell items and/or information to both armies. It wouldn't be a breach of her deal with Byleth, given that she consistently does pay the player for their services (Trade Secret quests every month and gives you half the share of treasure from her paralogue), but it would be a betrayal given that there's a war going on. Is there any reason for her to be loyal and only do business with Byleth's faction?

[Who should have betrayed their faction?]

9 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I don't recall her "justifying" herself to him. Keep in mind that every time she's giving him the choice, she tells him that she's going to fight against the Church and Rhea, making it clear that her path will likely lead to the death of Byleth's own kind. Unless you consider her expressing her reasons and letting down her barriers to show her more vulnerable side as her "justifying" herself, but that certainly wouldn't be the case.

Hmm this sounds a little like pedantry to me. Byleth doesn't technically know (but they could feasibly suspect) a lot about their heritage until just prior to Fhirdiad where Edelgard has The Chat - before that point she never mentions Byleth fighting against their own kind, or Byleth's relation to Rhea, but keeps whatever she does know (it doesn't seem like that much anyway) to herself. I don't disagree that she's being vulnerable by speaking to Byleth privately throughout CF, but it's just as much about confirming Byleth is onside (because that is critical to her goals) as it is an emotional journey for her (because a big part of her can't bring herself to believe anyone would or could choose to walk alongside her). She's more afraid in those moments than actively manipulative - she obviously has plenty of reason to fear opening up to people. It just so happens that in this case her personal issues coincide with her public duty to win (and Byleth is key in both).

So yeah, while I'm no shrink, it seems to me like she keeps asking Byleth of his choices as a way of explaining herself to them while affirming her own choices - not only is Byleth's approval paramount as the first person Edelgard has truly let in, it's also the scariest to obtain, because for Edelgard a lot publicly and privately rides on it (even if gameplay mechanics means that the player is locked in for the ride anyway). If you don't want to call that justification, that's fine though too.

[B.E Maddening/OP Builds]

Ingrid has great hit/avo, but low magic growths for a magic attacker, and Dark Flier doesn't help with that, even with Tomefaire. I've been having a fair bit of trouble making her into a powerful magic attacker - she works great as a dodge tank, but can't often get kills (am running her in a magic sword build currently). She does have a good Faith list though, and Thoron at C makes her a decent mage, if lacking in stopping power.

Your Dark Flier build looks quite good. I personally tend to out-snipe Snipers where I can (Caduceus Staff with a 3-spell and/or Thyrsus do the trick before S-rank, and I don't normally run more than two attack-oriented mages in a party) because mages normally do better on player phase than on enemy phase (they're just too brittle, unless you're in one of the few situations where an enemy phase is magic-heavy), but in fairness I've never tried to make an enemy phase mage. How did it go?

 

[Who should have betrayed their faction?]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

It never had anything to do with "right or wrong" but simply that Byleth was destined to oppose Edelgard because he's a child of the goddess. But CF is the route where Byleth opposes that fate.

I'm not trying to say Edelgard feels like she's doing the wrong thing (and the general point you're making here seems true) but it's all the more reason why she feels a need to justify herself to Byleth - Byleth has thrown away their birthright for her, and she's scared they'll regret it, especially because Byleth comes to mean much more than a powerful ally.