[Golden Deer no recruit. Good or Bad idea ?]

4 minutes ago, Myssdii said:

He won't miss out faculty training in part 2 as any student can teach you in their boon skills if they are higher than yours in part 2. And between all students, you'll cover basically anything you need.

Shadow Mir might be referring to the fact that faculty can teach you in Part 2 even if their weapon rank is lower than yours (which is not the case for students). Byleth is likely to have higher ranks than the students in their preferred weapon(s) for much of Part 2, and if you failed to get A rank authority before the end of Part 1, then Seteth is probably the only person in your army who can teach that. 

[Knights/Church of Seiros members worth using as team members]

Yeah, all the Church units are very usable (with the exception of Anna, who is outperformed in every one of her possible niches even if you could ignore her criminal lack of supports). 

I'm personally a massive Shamir fan, and all of her natural endgame classes (Sniper, Bow Knight, and just because fliers + bows are amazing, Falcon Knight) are extremely solid - as you say dancing synergises with her personal, but she also can do very cool things as a dodge tank flier with Alert Stance, and still using a Brave Bow on Player Phase. It's almost criminal that she's recruitable in Ch. 6, and can thus reasonably get Hunter's Volley by Ch. 10 when most units have only just gotten into advanced classes if at all. 

As said above, Catherine, Seteth, and Jeritza are all very good with little effort. So certainly usable (indeed recommended) on Hard and Maddening. Seteth is an upgrade on Ferdinand (excluding Ferdinand's dodge tank stuff, which personally hasn't worked for me yet), Catherine is a slightly worse female Felix (but after the early game, there's no advantage in her personal because she shouldn't be taking many counters/the stat boosts from battalions do wonders for Thunderbrand/Nimble Combo), and I think Jeritza needs no convincing.

I love Magic Bow Hanneman. Absolute machine, needs a bit of babying but becomes very good very quickly. As a mage, though, he isn't particularly special.

Manuela doesn't bring exceptional offensive power - only on NG+ can you afford to get her Bolting, which I suppose is something if you like siege tomes. Her accuracy might need a little patching with it though. Hexblade is simply not reliable enough (you still have to rely on effective kills and lucky crits), and whilst her stats are decent, I wouldn't normally use her because she does feel a bit like dead weight. But if you need another Warp user Bishop, or for some reason can't have Marianne use Silence (and you really need it) on a mage-heavy map, then she has that niche.

Flayn often gets quite a good Mag stat, which is nice for Rescue, and having Fortify means she's never not a useful Gremory. I'd be interested to see whether Frozen Lance Falcon Knight is a worthy build for her - otherwise she isn't particularly noteworthy on offense. 

I like Alois a lot, but having Balthus from much earlier now means there is someone built to occupy his niche. Alois is still a big hitter thanks to One-Two Punch, so it doesn't take much effort to get him to ORKO - he's a great backup/supplement if you don't have anyone being a tough guy with a Player Phase. Give him Death Blow if you can, stick him in Grappler/War Master and let him be.

I haven't had much success with Gilbert or Cyril, so I don't use them, but that may just be my bad luck.

[Mixed Builds - A Thread]

2 hours ago, Anathaco said:

I think Mir was referring to the fact that being classed as War Monk gives 0 magic as a stat boost (compared to say, Warlock, which gives 3).

(On a completely unrelated note, I just learned that Dark Flier also has a 0 magic modifier. That's pretty wack.)

Aha I knew I was missing something. 

Yeah Dark Flier has slightly upsetting growths given how otherwise good it is. 

2 hours ago, Anathaco said:

Ok. I'm about to attempt basic math, so please correct me if I have missed something major here. That being said:

The threshold to kill with aura knuckles is higher than 29 magic. The math checks out, if the enemy had 0 resistance and 88 HP. But because they actually have a res stat, what ends up happening is:

Let's say we have the 29 magic stat you proposed.

We ran this hypothetical War Monk through Monk for Magic + 2 and Mage for Fiendish Blow

They have the battalion granting 8 magic 

War Monk grants Fistfaire for +5 attack

And finally the Aura Knuckles have 2 might

That brings them to 52 attack on player phase, which translates to 24 damage per hit against an enemy with 28 resilience. Even with the double that's not enough to kill. 

You are completely right - I forgot to count each gauntlet hit separately, and instead counted them together as one attack. That was a pretty big miss on my part - thanks for spotting!

The threshold for a 60 HP unit with 28 Res is thus not a straight 88 as I had previously assumed, but a raw magic attack of 58x2. The build theory I had outlined was only at 47x2 (without using battalions, stat boosters, Defiant Mag, or Mt adjutants). A +8 magic battalion and Defiant Mag/a couple of Spirit Dust/a Mt Adjutant would get me there, but like you spotted it isn't quite as easy as I had outlined before. If I use a Mt adjutant and the +8 battalion, the magic stat threshold for an individual unit to ORKO this guy is back to 32 like I assumed in theory. If I just use the battalion my magic stat threshold is 35. Like you point out, other mages can do it reasonably happily though - and with the exception of Lysithea and effective magic, pure mages aren't otherwise getting the OHKO with 32 or 35 magic.

It's probably worth re-addressing @Shadow Mir's RNG screwage point here too. Yuri can get to the threshold even with his average thanks to leveraging his Authority strength and A rank Authority as well as a couple of boosters, but since he only would just reach the threshold with that he's definitely vulnerable to RNG screwage messing with him. Anna is probably unable to get to the threshold without RNG blessing and/or a lot of favouritism (dammit Anna, I tried to save you). Manuela will need at least B authority to get to the threshold, but she should be relatively safe (and has the further option of spending time in Bishop to help her Mag growth if you don't want to use Mag boosters and are really worried). As a canon mage, Annette has no difficulty. So RNG screwage is a legitimate fear in the case of Yuri, and the revised thresholds knock out Anna. Which brings it down to Annette and Manuela who are available and solid spares for this build. I don't think this impacts my argument hugely though - only significant RNG blessing would let any pure mage reach their KO thresholds, while most canon mages shouldn't struggle to reach the War Monk thresholds, meaning that RNG will still affect the offensive performance of pure mages more than War Monk.

2 hours ago, Anathaco said:

(I know this was taken from a discussion about magic weapons in general, but I'm just using this to show that I'm addressing the accuracy issue you have with Aura Knuckles.)

Using the same class paths as the magic calculations above, so Constance goes to monk, then priest at level 10, then War Monk at level 20 and stays there. Meanwhile Lysithea goes to Monk, then Mage at level 10, changes to Warlock at 20 and finally Dark Knight at 30. The average stats are as follows:

Constance: 13 luck, 21 dex = 17 base accuracy + 80 hit from AK = 97 hit

Lysithea: 13 luck, 32 dex = 22.5 base accuracy + 65 hit from Hades = 87.5 hit.

(neither of these are including linked attacks, prowess skills, etc.)

Overall Constance has higher accuracy, and her Dex AND luck are relatively poor, too. If you wanted to use any of the 4 candidates Haar mentioned (Yuri, Anna, Manuela, Annette) they all have higher Dex than Constance (not Lysithea though), but higher luck than both of them. So overall your hit rate will be better with War Monk than Lysithea using Hades- if she went for a more accurate spell she'd have more trouble killing. If you still don't trust War Monks and their accuracy that's fine, but mages are generally going to be just as accurate/inaccurate as Aura Knuckles- the hardest hitting spells tend to have 80 or lower accuracy anyway (Excalibur is the only exception with 100 hit).

Thanks for doing the maths on this as well and clearing it up. I can't say I've ever been particularly afraid of missing with magic weapons over missing with normal weapons, but I was beginning to think that the difference might have been just a subjective one between what hit rates @Shadow Mir and I were willing to accept. 

2 hours ago, Anathaco said:

For what it's worth, I'm not saying it's optimal in all situations, and you don't want to replace every one of your mages with an Aura Knuckles War Monk, but there's a place for it if you want to give it a shot, and it can be effective. Just like all hybrid builds, really. 

Yeah the conclusion of my argument was supposed to be something like this. Given how much I write, though, I imagine it could look like I was trying to say something a lot stronger.

[My Ideas for Changes to Crimson Flower]

6 hours ago, Ivan Tridelan said:

To start, the biggest change would be a complete overhaul of Chapter 11. After returning from Enbarr you make the choice that currently you make at the  end of the Holy tomb fight.

Assuming you've chosen CF path, the Tomb plays out very differently. When Edelgard storms in, you make your choice known and Rhea flips out as you'd expect. She goes full Immaculate One, with stats and buffs that make it clear you aren't supposed to beat her. A bunch of imperial mages lock her in a barrier to prevent her from interfering, so she summons the guardians you fight in her paralogue in other routes (mechanical golems and phantom soldiers). You are supposed to steal the Crest Stones (making it the opposite of the other routes' version of this fight) while protecting the mages, being rewarded for how many you steal (instead of how many you protect from being stolen). The fight lasts 12 turns or the mages are slain (in either case, they warn Edelgard that Rhea is breaking out and they can't hold her much longer, so she calls a retreat). You can only use the BE students (pre-deployed), making it similar to the dreaded Ch 13 of other routes, but you do get help from the Imperial soldiers El brought. Flayn is also present as a non-aggressive enemy (in both fights against her in CF she expresses regret at having to fight you) near the back.

After the fight, Edelgard reveals her "true history of Fodlan" as well as the unwilling alliance with TWSITD, the fact they'd have started the war anyways so she's doing so on her terms, and her intentions to turn the tables on them later. This gives much better reasoning to side with her for people like Lysithea and Leonie who hate TWSITD and anyone who works with them. She is also convinced not to turn unwilling people into beasts with the Crest Stones, which she agrees to as thanks for siding with her (which is why there are no mentions of their use in CF as opposed to other routes where you fight them frequently).

Agreed about this, BE Chapter 11 definitely needed tuning and is ridiculous if you plan on choosing Edelgard. 

6 hours ago, Ivan Tridelan said:

CF proceeds largely according to canon until Arianrhod is destroyed, at which point Hubert pinpoints Shambala and they take the opportunity to destroy TWSITD's main base (simply re-use the map from VW/SS, with some level scaling) before proceeding to the epic clashes at Tailtean Plains and Fhirdiad which I feel are the proper conclusion to CF route. Incidentally, during the Fhirdiad mission, Ashe and Annette are too moral to go along with this, not to mention it's THEIR capital that's burning down, civilians included so they can be persuaded to either abandon the fight (they go to save civilians) or join you; Catherine has stated she'll do anything for Rhea except die, so she'll probably fight, Cyril has nothing for him in Fodlan except Rhea so he fights and Gilbert is consumed by guilt at his failures (which is why he leaves the Kingdom and his family in the first place) so at this point he WANTS to die in battle.

I think Shambala probably shouldn't come before Fhirdiad, because otherwise it would defeat the purpose of letting TWSITD go free up until that point. I agree that it's weird you have to fight Ashe and Annette after Dimitri falls, so I'd rather see them help out civilians too. 

Perhaps Shambala could be a secret map, dependent on who Byleth ends up with (certain endings, like Byleth x Jeritza, ensure that Byleth is part of the TWSITD takedown, but most endings don't). I think Edelgard deserves a face-off against Arundel/Thales, it could have been a great opportunity for some Agarthan lore to be dropped, and would be a truly decisive victory for Edelgard (defeating her arch torturer, and proving once and for all humanity doesn't need any superhuman aid, including the Agarthans with their long life and monster magic).

[Mixed Builds - A Thread]

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

As to that, I clarified that I wasn't aiming for her as a WL because she has a strength in the three fields needed for Falco access (swords, lances, flying). 

Is this assuming she had qualified for Wyvern or not? Also, I'm kinda skeptical about having Marianne spamming magic combat arts as her main method of offense - this restricts her to trying to OHKO at range 1 when her durability isn't good. This being said, this admittedly is something I would not try on Maddening.

At the same time, most characters tend to not have as much luck as they have dexterity -  the luck growths in this game in general tend to not be high (only two characters have luck growths higher than 50% - Ignatz and Shamir). And you can't expect class growths to help much in this regard, as only a select few classes affect luck growth. As a result, I'm likely gonna expect to have to have accuracy issues with most of them without some help to patch them up.

Yeah I was really driving at Marianne's optimal build earlier. Raising her to B+ Axes for WL to increase her strength base a bit (and potentially her growths if you spend time in the class) won't be optimal for her given how far ahead her mag stat is likely to be over her strength, how much more powerful her magical combat arts are in general, and what a resultant waste of time axe tutoring/training would be. I think her Mag is just about high enough that she gets OHKOs for quite a lot of the game with magical combat arts, meaning she normally won't get counters (and will probably be in a Canto class or a dodge-y sword class that can avoid them). Seeing as Fimbulvetr/Aura are often dodgier accuracy-wise than these combat arts, I'd argue Marianne's best offensive build is utilising her magic combat arts (or at least that it's a difficult choice between pure mage or CA user).

Fair point about luck growths - I think that in practice it's more than balanced by the fact that the disparity between a given magical unit's dexterity and luck at endgame isn't likely to ever be more than 20 points, whereas a speedy Maddening enemy is normally going to have more than 20 points' difference between their speed and luck, because of how quick units get. This holds truer of Part 2 perhaps, but it normally means that Magic Hit - Enemy Magic Evasion > Physical Hit - (Enemy Physical Evasion + Terrain Bonus). In other words, magic attacks end up hitting often despite what the numbers say, and are fairly consistent. Aura Knuckles has 80 Hit, and the average spell has that hit or less, so I don't think there's any standard difference between a mage's accuracy and a War Monk's, which means accuracy really isn't a relevant discriminator between endgame War Monk and most other units, let alone Warlocks.

I have to say, your general skepticism at 1-range OHKO/ORKOs is surprising. Physical units rely on this, and Aura Knuckles is gonna be more consistent than some of them. And nobody should really be taking counters on a late-game Player Phase unless you mess up or bad luck - if there are significant hit difficulties (and I don't foresee this being the case more often than the likes of LoR Swift Strikes), use Linked Attacks or adjutants like you would normally. It's the same kind of risk as a normal mage trying to kill a sniper or a bow knight - there is a risk, but ultimately it's manageable.

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

And once again, how many of those would be better off as a War Monk/Cleric instead of Warlock/Bishop? Because that list, far as I'm concerned, is empty for reasons already mentioned.

All of them, literally all, would get higher raw attack than they would as a Warlock. If you're seeking something else from them (for example as mainly a siege tome user, or healer) then yeah don't go War Monk. If the role to be filled is magical hitter (and that is the only context I have been discussing), the Aura Knuckles build does better than Warlock. 

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Except the Aura Knuckles are 1-range locked, unlike magic, meaning you're pretty much always risking retaliation (to say nothing of the fact that a mage with Caduceus or Thyrsus equals or surpasses a War Monk in terms of attack range, meaning they're rarely, if ever, at risk). So no, I don't see it as a competing build when all you can do is try to KO at 1 range knowing you're assuredly dead meat if you fail to kill for whatever reason.

When the Aura Knuckles attack twice, (and they inevitably do on Player Phase, which is what this build is for) they have higher damage output than any normal mage. If they can't KO with that, and the counter puts them at grave risk (for example they can't dodge it even with Brawl Avo +20 and the low weight of Aura Knuckles, or they can't eat the counter and survive the rest of enemy phase despite their War Monk HP growths) then they shouldn't commit to the attack. Instead, they can hit with their spell charges, or Pneuma Gale from two spaces. 

If what is needed is a mage-sniper, then you can run that build as well. Hell, the War Monk themselves can carry Caduceus/Thyrsus if they really have to (though they don't need to because you aren't constricted to one mage/magical attacker per map, and that's unlikely to be optimal anyway). I have never said all magic classes should be replaced with War Monk, or that War Monk fulfils every magical niche well. I have only ever said that it is more powerful than other magical attackers. Any and all mage-snipers will still do less damage than this build - if what is needed is range, send a magical sniper (there are only two range-boosting items in the game, so odds are you can't have more than two in an army anyway). But if a War Monk with their 6 movement can get there, then they are more likely to get the KO than a magical sniper (freeing up your other units to do literally anything else).

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

When I talk about spell loss, I don't just mean those; I also mean other goodies like Excalibur and Thoron. Also, I still think your focus on raw attack power is stupid because it ignores the fatal flaw of this - that you're having a mage try to KO at range 1 (aka, often risking retaliation) with a weapon that's not that accurate, while having the durability of wet tissue paper. I shouldn't have to point out what happens if they're unfortunate enough to whiff... also, because we're talking about a weapon with all of 2 might, I'd say that being magic screwed would make this fall apart like a house of cards (not helping matters is that War Monk has a big fat goose egg for magic). Which brings me back to the question I've been asking for a while now: why in the seven hells would I commit to a build that clearly sacrifices utility and is especially vulnerable to RNG screwage (because the moment enemies end up out of 2HKO range, this build is worthless)???

Sure, but look at the mages I listed as available for this build above (Manuela, Annette, Yuri, Anna). Manuela will lose out on a use of Warp, but Linhardt, Hapi, and Lysithea have Warp (and the latter two can get Gremory more easily). Yuri or Annette will lose 2 uses of Excalibur (6 if Annette goes Warlock/Gremory), but Linhardt and Flayn get it too and will be just as powerful if not more (and any of your bow users can do the same thing as Excalibur). Ward and Silence are niche enough for you to be OK without Manuela/Yuri/Anna using it, and Flayn/Constance will be able to use Rescue better than Anna. And I've already restricted all the Thoron users. With the possible exception of Crusher Annette, I don't think any other build will give these four units higher damage output, and they aren't losing any spell charges that other units can't cover

"Often risking retaliation" makes it sound as if you don't see a combat window allowing you to decide whether to go ahead with an attack depending on each unit's damage output. If they can't kill without serious risk, do something else - but if they can't kill, none of your mages can. And Aura Knuckles is certainly not less accurate than most spells - the risk in using them is not higher than with all other gauntlets, brave weapons, and brave combat arts, and most players would happily use those. 

As for magic screwage, it's never not possible, whether for War Monk or Warlock. But the threshold for kills at endgame is (conservatively speaking, excluding bosses/monsters) 60HP, 25-28 Rsl. That's 88 raw attack required for normal enemies. If we took my previous calculations to stand, S+ Warlock Lysithea would need to reach the stat threshold of 52 for 14 more mag atk (Defiant Mag/Macuil battalion gives +8 - either run both or run one and give her +6 from stat boosters) which gets her to 88 with Hades - ultimately possible for her, but still a big effort (and it only just gets to the threshold). And Hubert's the only other mage you could reasonably expect to pull off this pure mage OHKO build - no other mage has a chance unless they're extremely RNG-blessed and/or you grind/garden for stat-boosters to feed only to them the entire time.

The alternative is that you could use magic + brave combinations such as Magic Bow and Hunter's Volley, Arrow of Indra + Swift Strikes, or Aura Knuckles War Monk. For the War Monk, the threshold for their magic stat is the much lower 29, given the theory I described above. Annette can easily reach this even assuming she's in Mage till Lv20 then doesn't leave War Monk between Lv20 and Lv40. Manuela still wants Fiendish Blow so she will probably spend less time in War Monk for time in Priest/Mage, but she still reaches 29 on average by Lv40. Yuri and Anna will need a bit of help (their average at Lv40 with Mage>War Monk progression is around 24) but battalions can fix that (Anna can still get C rank authority by endgame despite her weakness, which is enough). Yuri, Anna and Manuela all have the low-ish magic growths of mixed units like Byleth/Ingrid anyway - stick any actual mage you weren't otherwise planning on using for endgame through this build and they won't need battalion/stat-booster help to reach the thresholds. So it turns out that not only is this build actually quite strong against RNG screwage, but it will more consistently get mage units to ORKO thresholds than pure magic classes. The build theory I described above expected 94 mag atk for even average mages - CF Dimitri requires 96 mag atk to be ORKO'd, and he's one of the toughest human enemies in that route. So Aura Knuckles War Monk is actually more likely to reach boss-level thresholds than Lysithea or any other pure mage.

And finally as a point of accuracy, War Monk has 5% magic growths, not 0% (which is what I assume "War Monk has a big fat goose egg for magic" means?)

[Mixed Builds - A Thread]

16 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Like who? Because as far as I'm concerned, that type of character doesn't exist in this game. And the characters that can access War Monk easily are not suited for it in the first place, either, which doesn't help its already flimsy case

Like I said, any mage who doesn't have a weakness in Brawling.

16 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Which is, as i said in no uncertain terms, worthless, because War Monk/Cleric sucks harder than Little Mac's recovery.

Is too, because gauntlet access doesn't even come close to making up for this. Whoopee, I get to use weapons that mostly top out at 4 might on characters that tend to be ill suited for using them! Is this your idea of a joke? Because if it is, I'm not laughing.

If Pneuma Gale was actually worth it, you'd have a point, but it isn't (largely because the class it's tied to is worse than junk).

If attack power alone was the be-all and end-all, then fighters wouldn't be considered poor classes in most FE games. But it is not, so I'm not impressed

Most of this quotation doesn't constitute much of any kind of argument - either it lacks relevance, or it's just empty rhetoric.

Here's the original calculations that led me to say to that Pneuma Gale is at least OK. 

On 5/12/2020 at 1:26 PM, paladin21 said:

Pneuma Gale isn't so useless as I thought, since it would be a 12-16 might spell that can't double (calculations below), but so would many low level spells, with the added benefit that you'd never run out of it (70 durability of training gauntlets is enough to cast it 23 times for 12 might. However, it can't match the offensive power of a pure magic class.

Pneuma Gale base damage = art might (7) + War Monk fistfaire (5) + gauntlet might (0-4 for non-relics)

Gauntlets are obviously not a straight substitute for spell charges. However, they still allow for more charges of magical damage than you would actually get in other classes. I have never at any point claimed that War Monk, or Pneuma Gale, are outright good. All I have said this entire time is that a War Monk Aura Knuckles build has an exceptional amount of raw attack power, enough to actually consider it as a build for one of your endgame party (and thus as a competing build to the usual Warlock progression). Anything else I've said in defence of War Monk is to justify why anyone would go into it on top of attempting to achieve this attack power

16 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I don't know about you, but money wasn't much of a concern... in part 1. In part 2, that stops. In that context, I'd consider the Aura Knuckles a rip-off. Especially since it's over 5 grand to repair forged Aura Knuckles (3750 for the weapon repair alone, and another 1500 for the Arcane Crystals needed). Last I checked, that's not a drop in the bucket - this isn't Awakening, or whatever other game bombards you with cash throughout the whole game.

Once again, raw attack power alone is the wrong thing to be focusing on. Especially when the opportunity cost is huge (once again, I think too many mages have valuable spells to be okay with halving their uses, especially when I get nothing of note in exchange).

I found the opposite. You can sell lots of more valuable things in Part 2, you will always get 5k a month from Professor Level, more money from tournaments, auxiliary battles (and DLC battles) give out higher rewards, and that's excluding however much money you had left over from Part 1. And after the Chapter 13 battle , you won't have to invest money buying seals/weapons for units you don't want to use (and there isn't really a need to upgrade most of your weapons before endgame, so outgoing costs aren't that bad either). I found that without doing more than one day of aux battles per month I very rarely dropped below 50-60k in Part 2 (more on NG+ files). I'm happy to write all that off as a difference in subjective experience between us, but even still, if I was planning to use a unit for endgame, 3,750G or 5,000G seems like a reasonable investment over the course of any Part 2.

Okay, let's talk about spell loss. I'm assuming you love siege tomes (I don't mind losing out on them) so this build is a no go for Constance, Dorothea and Hanneman. Let's also dismiss Lorenz, Marianne, Linhardt and Hapi (who have weaknesses in Brawling) and Lysithea (best offensive list in the game IMO). Let's assume your healer isn't any of the mentioned mages, leaving one of Mercedes or Flayn to be that healer. Even assuming that all of those units are for some reason unavailable for this build, that still leaves Manuela, Annette, Yuri and Anna free to do it (and Hubert on CF) - all of whom can get a high enough magic stat to make my earlier outline work (if not higher). In practice, it's also extremely unlikely that you're going to want to use all six of the otherwise constrained mages (Lysithea, Constance, Dorothea, Hanneman, Mercedes, Flayn) as pure mages, because that's normally too many to deploy anyway. Given that this build will certainly give you more raw attack power than any straight mage, meaning a higher likelihood of Player Phase KOs (which is everything on Maddening, how on earth can this be the wrong thing to focus on?), and most of your mages won't even be able to compete with normal Lysithea in damage output, it seems very reasonable to let one of your mages try this build.

17 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

True enough, but in general, if I'm doubling most of the time, I'm probably better off just attacking normally than using a combat art. As is, I only use those against armors, which fold to magic attacks in general. And I was talking about having her as a Falcon Knight, NOT Wyvern Lord (you really should have caught on to this because Marianne has strengths in all of the requirements for Falco).

I generally found other weapons to be more accurate than magic weapons in spite of this (admittedly, though, most of what I use is iron and occasionally steel, depending on the unit). They ignore terrain bonuses, sure, but that's not enough - I very seldom find engaging enemies on terrain with anything other than mages to be a good idea. Especially in the case of the Bolt Axe, which also has 15 weight dragging it down.

Even if Marianne is doubling (which is probably for only around half the enemies or less in Maddening anyway, like everyone else) the disparity between her Str and Mag is enough that only a Brave Lance (or potentially the Relic lances) are likely to reach as much damage as, or more than, Frozen Lance. Given that there are lots of good lance users, many of whom would appreciate a Brave Lance/be better users of the Relics, and fairly little Wootz Steel to go around, I'm surprised you went for Marianne as your physical attacker of choice.

Bolt Axe is definitely a troublesome weapon (I deploy it because it gives 3-space Linked Attack range for Axe users, but as a weapon in its own right it isn't nearly as good as the other magic weapons, precisely because of its weight). And from my experience I'd say normal bows (even without Curved Shot) have better hit than magic weapons. But gauntlets in general are a fairly accurate weapon class, and from what I've seen Aura Knuckles hit just as often as normal gauntlets - I've never worried about my hit rate when using them.

As for the bolded comment, here was my question.

On 6/22/2020 at 6:10 PM, haarhaarhaar said:

If you've turned Marianne into a non-magic class in the first place, then the main thing she's gonna be doing is magical combat art damage, or using a Levin Sword - why would you put her in FK or WL if you distrust mixed builds so much?

Here was your reply.

On 7/10/2020 at 8:50 PM, Shadow Mir said:

Because it is easy for Marianne to achieve, as she is good in all the requirements.

I assumed you simply misread my question, otherwise you wouldn't have replied in this way (because at best it's misleading, otherwise it's straight-up wrong). That's why I said

On 7/11/2020 at 12:43 AM, haarhaarhaar said:

I assume you also know Marianne is neutral in Axes, and there's absolutely no reason to train her in them except for class requirements or personal reasons. You're welcome to do what you like, but it sounds less than optimal for Marianne to be a primarily physical attacker in a class that only gives her Axefaire for offensive boosts.

The correct response is either to clarify whether you meant to bring up Marianne as a WL earlier, or defend why she should be in that class.

[Mixed Builds - A Thread]

4 hours ago, Barren said:

Her budding talent in axes exhaustive strike isn't really worth using unless you like breaking forged weapons over and over again. Though using smith stones to repair forged steel axes aren't the worst thing in the world. I just don't use it that much.

Yeah I figured a Hapi axe build wouldn't be amazing. Did you try Bolt Axe+/Crusher with Exhaustive Strike? I was wondering how well that does in practice (it seems like that would be her most powerful weapon attack, and if there's any worth in a Hapi axe build it would be comparing that to her performance using Hades). 

[Mixed Builds - A Thread]

2 hours ago, Barren said:

I was testing out Bolt Axe+ Hapi as a Wyvern Rider the other night, it does inflict magic damage as intended but I've noticed that it still triggers Pavise when going up against those titanus monsters. My guess it's because Axes are technically still recognized as physical weapons?

Yeah Pavise is supposed to halve swords/axes/lances/gauntlets damage in this game, regardless of whether weapons of those kinds use strength or magic.

How was Axe build Hapi out of interest?

[The Fire Emblem 3 Houses General Questions Thread]

2 hours ago, Strullemia said:

Do the Ashen Wolves show up as enemies in part 2 if you didn't recruit them and if so in what chapters in CF and SS/AM/VW route?

They don't show up at all in Part 2 as far as I'm aware.

[Mixed Builds - A Thread]

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

The Aura Knuckles are as expensive to repair as relic weapons are. And not nearly as useful as some of them are. In other words, for how much they cost to repair, I am getting cheated in terms of investment versus returns on that investment. I'd get more mileage out of repairing pretty much anything else

Like I was saying before, repairing isn't a zero-sum game where you have to pick and choose what weapons you maintain, unless somebody is exceptionally bad at money management. Unless they require Wootz Steel, Mythril, Agarthium, or Venomstone, you shouldn't be having any difficulties repairing weapons in Part 2, either in terms of money or resources. 2,500G/3,750G is a decent amount, compared to other repair costs, but it's chump change compared to your Part 2 war chest. After the early game, money is almost never a relevant limitation on what you can or can't do.

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

By going into a third-rate class that doesn't hold a candle to Warlock, much less Bishop (which is pretty much required because mages can't use gauntlets)? No. Just no. I don't see War Monk/Cleric as an improvement for any magically inclined character over the former two classes.

Because War Monk/Cleric isn't competing to do the same things as Warlock or especially Bishop. Nobody has ever claimed that they are (and most, including me, don't think that War Monk is a good class in general). The people who will want War Monk/Cleric as an endgame class are people who are supposed to be magic attackers, but can't regularly get kills/significant chip, because (as described above) their raw magic attack with Aura Knuckles will be higher than any spell ever.

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

And I fail to see that as worth it because I have to put in a LOT of brawling training that doesn't benefit me in any way, shape or form specifically for going into the class. The loss of spell charges, as I stated earlier, is also a dealbreaker, as many mages have valuable spells that I'd rather not have halved uses of. Sure, I'll have at least one slot dedicated to a magic attacker, but once again, War Monk/Cleric is just inferior to Bishop and Warlock. So why would this be worth it again? Because from where I'm standing, it obviously isn't. 

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Well, it's fair that I can't expect a mage to have any sort of enemy phase, other than against other mages, and I can't help but think that's iffy as well. If a War Monk/Cleric has to resort to using their halved spell charges, though, that's pretty much saying that they're have been better off in a class that doesn't cut their spell charges in half.

Achieving B rank fists with neutral proficiency for a mage is only a problem if you don't plan on getting it in advance. Putting just a little thought into it will mean you can easily get B rank by Lv 20, which is the minimum for classing into War Monk/Cleric. I've never had trouble raising secondary ranks for anyone before (for example, certifying into Fortress Knight/Paladin without spending time in Armored Knight/Cavalier for armour/horse ranks) and I don't see why I would here.

Limited spell charges aren't a dealbreaker, because they don't simply disappear (like what happens in other 'some magic' classes), they're replaced with gauntlet accessibility. Aura Knuckles will have more uses than almost any spell, as will all gauntlets. And all other gauntlets can be used as fodder for Pneuma Gale, which leverages the unit's mag stat into a decent amount of magic chip. With Killer Knuckles, that's a higher crit rate than any spell.

War Monk allows a mage to have some of the magic utility they would have otherwise had, keeping them useful even if they are prevented from using their niche (although that's not the reason why a mage is in that class). But no magic class affords a mage use of Aura Knuckles (which as shown above, can provide higher raw attack than every spell in the game), or gives them over 20 spell charges for a mid-strength spell (because mages basically never have competition for inventory slots, meaning that the War Monk can carry lots of gauntlets for Pneuma Gale).

And, as I already said above, Aura Knuckles gives higher attack than anything Warlock can put out (Bishop's niche is healing, and War Monk's is offence, so this is irrelevant for candidates for endgame Bishop). Simple, raw offensive power, is why you might choose War Monk over Warlock. Warlock does other things well and I'm not claiming that it's a bad class. But it is inferior in this respect, and attack power is not an insignificant concern.

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I already did give practical objections - that the Aura Knuckles are expensive to acquire and not helpful enough to justify the expenses. Well, that, and as stated above, the brawling training needed to qualify for War Monk is about as useful for a mage as tits on a bull since they can't use gauntlets, and mages are better off going towards Warlock or Bishop instead of War Monk/Cleric

Dude, 3,750G and 4 Arcane Crystal is really not a big deal. Do you really believe that this is reason enough to prevent anyone from attempting this build? 

If you are considering making a mage into a War Monk, you do it for the main reason that they have more raw offensive power than they would otherwise get as Warlock. This build results in getting one of the highest base magic atk possible in the game - none of your objections have shown that the theory to create that doesn't work, or that it doesn't provide the outcome I foresee (by practical objections I wanted you to point out some flaw in my reasoning that meant the build couldn't actually be carried out, not complaints about an opportunity cost that really isn't very high). 

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

No. Like I said in my last post, I actually had her qualify for Wyvern for the purpose of not needing to rely primarily on an inaccurate magic weapon for offense. Once again, I say magic weapons tend to be inaccurate because they're already among the least accurate of their weapon classes (incidentally, this was stated by someone else in the weapon balance topic before it got locked - right after my first post, even - and after having played the game more, I have come to realize that the person who made that statement actually had a point); to put things into perspective, the Bolt Axe ties for the least accurate axe, the Levin Sword is only more accurate than the Devil Sword, and the Aura Knuckles are the least accurate gauntlets. The use of the magic hit formula doesn't help much because most units tend to have a disparity between Dexterity and Luck, which are the two stats averaged out for magic hit. The result is that unless the enemy is on terrain, odds are I'm better off attacking with another weapon. I mean, it's as I keep saying - it doesn't matter how hard you hit if you can't hit in the first place. This is why I keep shooting down the Wyvern Annette build as overrated.

On the other hand, nearly all the flying battalions boost physical attacks. The only one that boosts magic attacks is the Nuvelle Fliers Corps, which I don't have access to in the playthrough in question because by the time I got the DLC, I was already in part 2.

Because it is easy for Marianne to achieve, as she is good in all the requirements.

Frozen Lance and Soulblade don't need magic weapons to deal big damage (in fact, they do better with high-Mt physical weapons) and that seems like flier Marianne's action of choice. Marianne's strength just isn't likely to catch up to her magic stat, even when in WL. I assume you also know Marianne is neutral in Axes, and there's absolutely no reason to train her in them except for class requirements or personal reasons. You're welcome to do what you like, but it sounds less than optimal for Marianne to be a primarily physical attacker in a class that only gives her Axefaire for offensive boosts.

The reason that magic weapons aren't actually as inaccurate as you claim is because enemy units run off a different, hidden stat for magic evasion. Which, as well as ignoring terrain boosts, averages speed and luck stats instead of simply going off AS. And enemies tend not to be that lucky (or as lucky as they are fast) which means the subsequent drop in evasion makes mag weapons closer to the middle/top end of weapon accuracy. With the exception of Bolt Axe, because it weighs so much too (although WL/Weight -3 makes it manageable). 

[A tier list: feel free to argue]

4 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

The biggest thing that jumps out at me there: why is Ignatz so high? He's quite similar to Ashe but you have three tiers between them, while pre-TS Claude absolutely hammers him and you have them close together. Hit+20 is cool but not that decisive.

Manuela also feels too high. I can understand a healthy respect for Warp but there's no way she should be that close to Lysithea regardless.

Perhaps it's Ignatz's all-round utility? I slept on him when playing Hard, but he does a number of things well in Maddening (reliable hit, rally bot if you want, debuff build is easy to achieve, high crit bow user, dodge tank dancer works fine, magic list is alright as a secondary function) that Ashe simply doesn't do as well. I don't think he warrants the same rank as the likes of Claude and Byleth either, but he'd be an A rank in this list quite comfortably I think.

Agreed about Manuela though - 2 max uses of Warp as her best offering isn't good enough to warrant the same rank as Lysithea. I guess the fact that both Fortify users and both the mages who most easily get siege tomes are ranked at B, just means that @Myssdii doesn't value those things in general? Which is fair enough (very little in this game is an absolute must) but Mercedes/Flayn/Dorothea/Constance all bring more to the table overall than Manuela I think.

 

Out of interest, why does Linhardt get ranked above Hapi - the only things Linhardt does better than Hapi is higher accuracy, a Faith boon, and his occasional Crest proc helps the healing power of Physic (not enough IMO for Hapi to be ranked a whole tier below). Is it just because Hapi doesn't get her Faith list in the DLC?

[A tier list: feel free to argue]

41 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Dorothea's magic stat isn't great but particularly for healing, it's not that big a deal. For instance, Dorothea and Lysithea have the same base magic, and Lysithea has 20% more growth... an average gap of 8 points at Level 41, which is about the highest level I'd expect either to reach. Even if Lysithea had Physic, her superior magic would only let her heal 2.67 more points... barely notcieable. If you compare Dorothea to the best magic stat which actually gets Physic, that's Marianne, who has the same base and +10 growth... i.e. 4 more points at Level 41, a gap of just 1.33 healing. The Healing Staff is a much more important factor in healing effectiveness.

It does mean her Thoron hits less hard than say Marianne's... 0 to 4 points depending on point in the game. Her Agnea's Arrow is indeed similarly behind other mages' Agnea's Arrow/Ragnarok/Hades, but keep in mind not all mages even get those. For instance, Marianne tops out at Fimbulvetr, 4 points weaker. Annette and Linhardt top out at Excalibur, 5 points weaker. (So all three of them will lose to Dorothea in peak damage once Dorothea hits A+.) Hubert tops out at Dark Spikes, 3 points weaker (which means that while both are Warlocks, Dorothea's Agnea's Arrow actually hits harder than Hubert's Dark Spikes, though his Paladin Frozen Lance will come out ahead of either as you noted). Her magic exceeds that of Lorenz (even with the latter's passive). So really, fewer mages than you might expect manage to consistently outpower her, and her skillset advantages are much more important IMO.

Fair, the gap in Physic isn't on average very noticeable - but Physic is the only Faith Dorothea brings to the table, which is why even that minor weakness sometimes counts against her. It's not like Dorothea needs a better Faith list to be useful, but it is a factor in relation to which mages I choose to deploy. And I think the fact that she's crowded out of my endgame teams when everybody is available is why I didn't rate her highly in my original list (though she does deserve a 6 in hindsight).

In my army, I'm unlikely to deploy more than 3/10 (or 4/12) units who primarily use their Magic stat. One of those 3/4 will certainly be a healer. The other 2/3 will be attackers, fulfilling one or more roles from this list: OHKO/ORKO (big hitters), debuffers, mixed utility (Warp/Rescue/Silence + decent chip), siege tome. I often favour the 'big hitter' group, and as mentioned previously tend not to use siege spells. Specific debuffers/mixed utility mages are normally deployed depending on context (for example LTC clears, maps with high proportions of certain enemies, or if I have a specific objective like 'steal from someone speedy'). Dorothea is competing either for the siege tome niche or to be a big hitter. Her only real competition for the former is Constance (or perhaps a blessed mage Hanneman), and I didn't really take that into account before because I don't normally use mages on account of their having Bolting/Meteor, although I should have considered that when ranking her. But for the latter, she doesn't beat out anyone I would expect to compete for that niche (Hubert, Lysithea, sniper Hanneman, Constance, Hapi). It was being at the lower end of this specific spectrum (and a lack of other particularly effective builds for her) that got her the 5.

[About to start Edelgard's paralogue... (minor spoilers I guess?)]

2 hours ago, RainbowMoon said:

I'm only on Hard if that makes a difference. Doubt I'll ever touch Maddening tbh since I'm playing mostly for story with a just bit of challenge.

If I go on the offensive and have Byleth and El work their way towards Nader, that leaves the defend point completely unguarded. How fast do the other enemies get there? And do they get distracted by fighting, or is getting to the defend point all they care about? I'm guessing it'll be as good as over once El's close enough to attack Nader. So if they both take the center path and cut through anyone in their way, any chance they'll reach Nader before the defend point's in trouble?

I think Hard is actually a bit kinder (no Poison Strike at least, making it easier to tank stuff) although you'll still get the same number of reinforcements.

I don't think it's likely that you'll get to Nader with the strategy you described because the guys on the left and the right will capture the seize point in 3 turns or so. You can kite the bow knights because of their amazing range, but everyone else will ignore you. Ans since you'll get bogged down for at least two turns in the central clearing thanks to the terrain, while attempting to fend off ranged units/canto users all the while, you won't be able to get back to to defend or get to Nader before they seize.

[About to start Edelgard's paralogue... (minor spoilers I guess?)]

4 minutes ago, RainbowMoon said:

So Nader stays put, but what about the wyvern reinforcements? I'm assuming since this is a defense mission that they'll all start moving towards the goal from the start. In which case it would probably be better to keep Byleth and El in that spot and let the wyverns come to them, yes?

Also is the wyvern spam endless? Or is it possible to just kill them all and then go for Nader when he's the last one left?

Btw that Axe of Zoltan I found looks pretty useless. Just a discount Aymr with no Raging Storm lol

Wyvern reinforcements move on their phase (not always straight towards you, but they will attack eventually), I believe it's 4 per turn on Maddening, and they don't stop until you finish the map. The first few turns of the map are the toughest - while Byleth and Edelgard can probably hold the defend point, your army will be getting attacked from three sides by Bow Knights with Poison Strike, three Giant Birds and wyverns (and there's some infantry near the deployment area to be careful of). Almost everybody except Nader, the miniboss sniper, and one battalion-wielding wyvern in each corner has aggressive AI.

Often people go for an LTC clear (killing Nader finishes the map) because it can be a pain to play defensively/rout. There are some stat boosters lying around, and the sniper can drop his bow (a Brave Bow I think?) if you care enough, but getting those requires a lot more careful planning. Good luck low-manning it - IMO it's one of the harder paralogues in the game.

[Best and worst units in three houses]

5 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

He doesn't even start with that much of a durability advantage - he only has 1 HP and Defense over Hilda. I highly doubt that's gonna amount to much, especially when her speed gets out of always being doubled range.

Hilda actually does make a good tank, early on and throughout the game (although you will have to focus her build on that). And If Hilda does take up the role of tank in your army, it might be that you don't want/need Raph at all. But of course there's no guarantee that Hilda will be a tank throughout your playthrough, or that you'll want her to play that role. And since Raph still does meatshield at least a bit better, while Hilda can serve other purposes better than Raph, it would make sense on VW to make Raph into a tank and Hilda into something else (like a flier).

Raph only really has one thing he can do well, and even then he doesn't do it that well. But since almost nobody does it better, that is the argument for why you might include Raph in your endgame. The reason Raph's tankiness was brought up was in comparison to Ashe, for whom there is no very convincing argument for endgame inclusion. No one is disputing that Raph isn't great, after all.

[A tier list: feel free to argue]

4 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

I guess it's a matter of perspective here more than anything, since we can agree on Jeritza being strong. I wasn't really saying that he doesn't have time to change him around, but that his availability holds him back too much. He can't contribute to the early and midgame at all, which are often harder than the endgame in pretty much every FE since by endgame all of your other units have had time to grow and have their builds finished. It's true he's very good during the endgame, but it's likely that so will most of your other units, so in terms of contribution I find it hard to say he adds a lot

Entirely fair - Part II in general isn't as hard as Part I, and CF is also a bit kinder than other routes. Definitely just an issue of differing perspectives.

[Best and worst units in three houses]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

I don't see Raphael being a good tank any time soon, as he's always being doubled, and it's not like he has a noteworthy durability edge over anyone else to make up for it.

The HP stuff that @Anathaco laid out quite well seems to be that durability edge?

In Maddening early game almost everyone is being doubled all the time. Dedue is potentially the only unit who regularly survives getting doubled on Maddening. Next on that list is Raph, simply because he's likely to have enough HP to eat two hits. Once everyone's speed gets out of the pits, Raph's tankiness starts tailing off, but that's where you stick him in armoured classes to get his def up. He, as well as about a third to a half of your army, are still going to get doubled for most of your run. And if you like or need to use meatshields (which you might) and Dedue isn't available (which is 3 routes + early Part II AM) then Raph is the guy you turn to. It still isn't that reliable, but that's just because meatshields are an unreliable strat for Maddening in general. It doesn't make Raph worse at being a tank than anyone else bar Dedue. And as I've said before, that niche can be used effectively in your endgame.

[A tier list: feel free to argue]

2 minutes ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

I am looking for comments like your earlier one, I want to discuss and/or argue about this so I can perfect it and then upload it again. I just don't want it to become to intense arguing, like my: 'lorenz is a good unit: change my mind' thread; That one has become extremely intense.

Fair enough, and yeah that other thread is pretty fierce.

[A tier list: feel free to argue]

6 hours ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

Remember this is from my experience

Yep, I'm not questioning your specific experience of the game, or that it's bound to be different from mine. But in a thread which has in its title "feel free to argue", I assumed you were looking for comments like my earlier one, which attempted to set out how exactly my opinion differed from yours, and why I felt that way.

4 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I agree with this list pretty well.

Perhaps my two biggest objections are Hubert and Dorothea. I like Hubert (top five character in the game for me personality-wise) but as a unit? ehhh. His faith list is garbage and he falls behind in Advanced tier due to a lack of worthwhile classes for him (can't benefit from Warlock's Tomefaire or Bishop's white magic boosts, can't access the DLC classes), I've often just made him a paladin with Frozen Lance at that point but that's obviously not competing with mages who have utility. On the other hand, I think Dorothea is one of the best mages in the game: Physic and Thoron are great (a combination only Marianne has otherwise, who I likewise would probably push a little higher... Hapi also has a variation on it but is a bit worse IMO), and the value of Meteor can not be overstated on Maddening, allowing linked attacks everywhere, and she has the best/fastest access to it (Hanneman joins behind on skills and has to wait for A+, Anna lacks supports, Constance has few supports, Manuela is weak in Reason, Hilda is not a mage and is only neutral in Reason).

That said I definitely think it's a good list and I liked reading your explanations. 🙂

Both of your objections are quite fair - basically I do a similar thing to you for Hubert, get Fiendish blow then stick him in Paladin till Lv 30. Which is annoying because his Reason list is very versatile, but is then sealed for a decent part of the game. The reason he still gets an 8 for me is because his Frozen Lance was very much a reliable OHKO even on Maddening, and then Arrow of Indra gave him the range he'd normally expect as a mage. That saves his midgame, and Paladin makes him a little bulkier than your other mages (enough, say, to survive an archer one time or something like that). Dark Knight then gets you his magic back - his Faith list isn't good, but units with a high magic stat and Recover are hard to come by. His magic stat is one of the big reasons he's good in general - Lysithea is the only unit I've seen outstrip it, and even then it depends on RNG and her class progressions. Which means that Recover is getting back as much HP as Healing Focus, perhaps more. Dark Knight means he has Canto to avoid the frontlines, and having 12 uses of Tomefaire-boosted 3-range magic without a range-booster is very very pleasant (and normally enough for any one battle).

As for Dorothea - unlike Hubert, Hexblade isn't good enough on Dorothea for her to care about physical weapons (and C+ swords isn't that hard, but it does take time). But she can go Warlock then Gremory, so no biggie. Physic and Thoron is, like you say, a great combination for a mage and it's available really early for Dorothea, which is good on Maddening. And of course even if you're not a big siege tome user like me, the linked attack benefits of Meteor are amazing enough to acknowledge. In fact, the lack of suitable siege tome users in the game alone is definitely a good reason to be ranked higher (IMO Constance is the only outright better siege tome user), and in hindsight I probably should. There are a couple of reasons I gave her a 5 despite all this - one is that her Faith list stops at Physic. On its own, this wouldn't be a problem - Physic alone is good enough for a unit to be a secondary supporter. However, Dorothea's magic stat isn't amazing, meaning that everyone else with Physic/Fortify heals more than her. And this isn't the end of the world (even though it's the only thing her Faith list adds to her), but it also means that Agnea's Arrow/Thoron don't hit as hard as similar-Mt spells on other mages. None of these are critical issues for Dorothea, but they did mean that I would often replace her mage-build for more powerful mages despite Meteor, and any kind of other build is only middling on her. Ultimately, though, you make fair points about Dorothea (and Marianne, who I rate a bit higher than Dorothea, might need to move up as a result).

51 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

I think it makes sense that Jeritza isn't in the upper echelons. There's simply not enough game time for him to do stuff that your existing units can't already do, and the things that are broken about him don't have time to matter (DC from class, Darting from Flying etc.).

I mean, Counterattack and Darting Blow are both good things, but I agree they aren't necessary. And Ferdinand at least can do some of the things that Jeritza can. But Jeritza comes ready-made and ready to go, and can be shaped into almost anything you could want. Getting him to WL is tricky, but not impossible. He can also do any sword class, cavalry class, or brawling class with relative ease, even in 5 chapters. And he's good in all of them, not to mention his great unique class. I guess I just disagree that there isn't enough time to change him if you want, but even if that weren't true, he arrives powerful enough to make your endgame team, with one of the better lances in the game. No effort and adds value - definitely a higher tier pick for me.

4 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Because a lot of aspects of these games are random - you can't guarantee that a unit will turn out the exact same way over two playthroughs of the game. Likewise, I can't recommend a unit to someone else just because they did well for me - once again, as the nature of level ups in these games is random, they might not do so well for someone else.

You can attempt to speak from averages and numbers all the time, but that isn't always going to be helpful. Some things have to be experienced directly to understand why games play out the way they do - it's why not all games are perfectly balanced even though devs spend a lot of time testing their product. For example, Cyril ought not to be worse in theory than units who fill the same niche as him, and yet Cyril is Cyril. Don't get me wrong, being objective is a good thing, but objectivity doesn't devalue one's personal experience of gameplay.

[A tier list: feel free to argue]

I think it might be easier for me to do an alternate tier list rather than go through everybody. Am gonna do my alternate tier list based solely on how I've seen them perform in combat (in other words, do as much as I can to suppress my biases about their characters). Even the characters I rank lowest are people I still think are usable (and both would and have used happily) - I just don't think they're as good.

Effectiveness rating (how likely I am to deploy them based on battle performance, out of 10)

10: Byleth (either gender), Edelgard, Claude 

9: Dimitri, Jeritza

8: Shamir, Catherine, Hubert, Lysithea, Sylvain, Petra, Felix, Leonie

7: Yuri, Hapi, Constance, Hilda, Hanneman, Mercedes, Seteth

6: Balthus, Ferdinand, Linhardt, Flayn, Ignatz, Ingrid, Marianne, Alois

5: Dedue, Dorothea, Annette, Bernadetta

4: Cyril, Manuela, Lorenz, Raphael

3: Anna, Ashe, Caspar, Gilbert

2: N/A

1: N/A

 

I've seen dodge tank Warmaster M!Byleth in action now, which is the only reason why I don't rate M!Byleth a whole rank lower. Wyvern Lord + Aymr is the most broken thing in the game, which is why Edelgard ranks at 10.

The only reason Dimitri doesn't get a 10 is because he isn't easily a flier, and because I don't often use Battalion skills (although I recognise how useful they are). I'm so surprised Jeritza ranks so low on your tier list - he's easily the best recruitable character in the game, and he arrives with weapon levels and a class ready for endgame - his stats aren't particularly far off either.

Everyone in my 8/10 tier is at roughly the same place as yours, so no complaints

Hanneman only rates so highly because I was blown away by him in Sniper - otherwise he deserves to be lower-ranked. I personally haven't had blow-me-away experiences with Hilda in battle, although she is very solid, which is why she doesn't rank higher. The DLC units are all good units, but I don't think any of them are particularly great. 4x Bolting on Constance is a little game-breaking, but because I don't use siege tomes a lot (I keep conserving them like a miser, then ending up not needing them) she doesn't warrant amazing status.

Balthus was actually not that great when I used him, but I have a feeling he was RNG-screwed hence the slightly lower rating. Ferdinand is solid but not more, as is Ingrid - for me they don't deserve higher or lower than a 6. I actually think Alois is underrated because of his late arrival - you may not 'need' him, but he is good.

Dedue's only real problem is how far behind he is when he returns - Lorenz and Ashe wouldn't get higher than a 5 for this same reason. I know Vengeance Bernadetta is ridiculously powerful, but I can't bring myself to use that build for her.

Cyril has consistently sucked for me, and even PBV and good classes haven't saved him, hence the 4. Manuela doesn't get the lowest rating because one time I actually got her to Bolting (it was a slog) and, pre-DLC, it catapulted her into my endgame team. Still not great though. And I've already discussed Lorenz and Raph elsewhere.

I actually think Anna's combat is OK, but her obvious deficiencies mean she has to be relegated to bottom. The other three 3/10s are just disappointing.

[Lorenz is a good unit: change my mind]

I agree completely with @lenticular's sentiment that even the worst units in battle are OK, and that everyone is usable with enough effort.  If you're already inclined to use Lorenz (because you like him, or because you want to try a build with him or whatever) then fair enough. I'm happy to admit that I've never put enough effort into Lorenz to see him be a frontliner of the kind that his supporters have described in this thread, even though I raised him for most of my VW run. I'd also happily agree that since GD forces his use for all of Part I, his bulky mage schtick is quite helpful for the Deers' early game and Ch. 13 (especially given his starting location in that map).

But a lot of people on this thread have already made good and cogent arguments for why Lorenz won't rise above OK, and I don't think he's saved from them even in his own route (and this goes doubly so in NG+ with its greater freedom in recruitment and builds). For me in particular, it's because he does nothing particularly well in a game that begs you to specialise, and his relatively unimpressive damage output isn't suited to my Player-Phase oriented play style.

[Best and worst units in three houses]

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I don't have much, if any, reason to believe that this is even remotely worth it. Especially when most everyone else only needs a fraction of the effort he needs to be decent, much less good

I do agree with this sentiment - even if you're on GD, Raph's niche isn't good enough IMO to warrant getting him all the way to Quick Riposte where he has an enemy phase, or even using him enough to get to Fierce Iron Fist when he semi-reliably gets kills. The only point I wanted to make is that Raph could at least serve a purpose on your endgame team (because he will outperform everyone for HP growths which is important for staying in range of QR), whereas pretty much every bow user/flier/paladin will do better damage than Ashe, and Ashe doesn't have any niche that warrants his inclusion in an endgame party.

[The Fire Emblem 3 Houses General Questions Thread]

3 hours ago, Carter said:

If I beat this file, and start a new NG+, while my Sylvain have access to B level sword, or will he be locked to E Level sword because I didn’t buy the level?

As long as your next NG+ uses the cleared game data from the NG+ that you're currently doing, then you'll retain the ability to access everything that you could buy in this NG+ in your next one. 

[Best and worst units in three houses]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

I would say Ashe is better than Raphael, who I'd consider the king of underwhelming. What in the name of Hylia can he do that someone else can't do better?

Quick Riposte does end up fixing a lot of the issues you mention (I mean it is an amazing skill anyway). I'm sure you'd say that the pain of getting Raph to master War Master isn't worth the effort, and I'd agree that it's really painful, having actually done it on my VW run. But it does bring results - he stays in Quick Riposte HP thresholds for longer than anyone else except a dodge tank, and that high HP is the niche I'd assume people are referring to for Raph. Also, Killer Axe/Killer Knuckles will often get a crit on the counter, which is at least enough for big chip on enemy phase. So, like every unit, he's usable with enough effort, and the niche he brings to an army can be effective, especially for the Deer. 

On the flip side, Death Blow + Hunter's Volley Ashe (which I imagine is Ashe's biggest damage output? Maybe there's a more powerful Ashe build idk) is done better by literally everyone who would be a physical Sniper. I've described other potential Ashe builds earlier in this thread - as a permanent Thief or as a stat debuffer - and both of those niches can be done better too (Assassin is a good enough class to use if you don't want to bring a Chest Key, and both Ignatz and Hilda are GD natives who can do debuffing as well as something else). So Raph slightly edges it for me over Ashe in terms of who is more useful in battle, although both of them are a drag for significant portions of the game.

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Ditto for Lorenz, who only has it slightly better.

I actually find it harder to defend Lorenz' gameplay than Raph's. There are other all-rounders in the game, and other units created to be physical/mag hybrids, and yet Lorenz still somehow is underwhelming at all his potential niches. And because of Marianne, it means there's always at least one person in your army on any route who does Lorenz' niches better. I've heard 'he's a mage who can take a hit' before, and that makes sense for Maddening NG - but he's still slow enough to be getting doubled, which means that relying on outlasting counters with his HP is a bit too dicey for my taste. That niche will also exhaust itself in the very early game (which is tough, sure, but is only a fraction of the game as a whole). So beyond mandatory deployment in Ch. 13, it feels like there's no reason not to use him as little as possible.

 

[Best and worst units in three houses]

15 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Linhardt has the physic/warp combo, which Lysithea, Marianne, and Flayn do not. And I'd argue that this makes him a better support unit than Mercedes.

Very fair point. I also agree with you that Warp doesn't solely find use in speed run/LTC clears, and is a useful tool in its own right. Of course, Mercedes still has better healing spells, all the other Warp users have access to Gremory, and Physic isn't hard to find, so it's very much up to the player to decide whether Linhardt is the most useful support unit to deploy or not. All four of the women you've named here get better Mag than Linhardt, so even though Flayn has a comparable Reason list, all four of them are better magical attackers. So the question should be - do you need an extra Warp user in your party? You honestly might want one, but on a NG+ playthrough where you have the freedom to recruit anyone whenever, you can probably do better. Linhardt isn't at all bad, though.

13 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I would disagree - Raphael is a textbook case of Crippling Overspecialization. While he might have an easy time getting into Armored/Fortress Knight, it's meaningless because he's so slow just about everything doubles him. Even if I wanted to compare him to Dedue, he still looks bad because he doesn't have the stuff that makes Dedue good (and Balthus being a thing now doesn't help his case). Long story short, it takes a Herculean effort to get him to a point where he can even be called decent, and even then, he can't do anything someone else can't do better.

I'll have to correct you here - Manuela is good in flying.

Another candidate for worst is Lorenz, who has the opposite problem as Raphael above. He doesn't excel in anything, and the result is the same as Raphael - I have a hard time finding a reason to use him over just about anyone else

These are both good points. Raphael and Lorenz might see some use in the early game (and you're gonna wanna train them, especially Lorenz, for Ch. 13) but both are far from ideal. Marianne does the Frozen Lance build much better than Lorenz (even if you don't optimise her for Lances) and Raph's niche quite quickly becomes actively useless. It's not like either unit is  completely unusable, but there are far better units waiting in the wings.

10 hours ago, lenticular said:

Honorable mention for underwhelmingness goes to Anna, who mostly feels like a cross between worse-Bernadetta and worse-Manuela, has an awful personal, and worst of all, has no supports. This not only makes her feel so much shallower as a character, but also hurts her combat performance because of linked attacks and gambit boosts being so much weaker. I've never actually used her, but I'm sure she'd be perfectly usable. But like Ashe, there's nothing about her that makes me want to use her. She at least has pass/rescue and a higher magic kill than Bernadetta, so that is something I guess? But I still feel overwhelmed by meh whenever I think about using her.

I tried to use her in my last playthrough, and found she was actually around middle of the pack in terms of combat ability. Not especially strong or magical (about the same kind of strength as Yuri/sword Ferdinand, and the same magic as my Trickster Ingrid) which meant that swords in general (even with Hexblade/Soulblade) didn't do more than average chip. Her Authority bane is also a pain. But she had great speed (with Darting Blow, the highest AS of my entire army pre-endgame) and okay Crit rates. I still wouldn't recommend using her for all the reasons that you've mentioned (underwhelming is definitely the right word choice) but she was better in combat than the likes of Ashe and Manuela. I'd also note, however, that Anna alone can be recruited at any time after Chapter 3 - when she first came out I was just about to do VW endgame, and her stats when I recruited her were amazingly good (but she was still in the Thief class, and didn't have good enough skills/weapon levels to be considered for endgame). Of course, recruiting her late means missing out on her paralogue (unless CF) and although on NG+ her paralogue is far from necessary, you still might resent having to miss out on completing a paralogue/lots of gold and weapons just to make a poor unit a bit better.