[Best and worst units in three houses]

1 hour ago, LoneStar said:

I'd say every unit except Hanneman, Ashe, and Caspar can perform a competent role if you invest properly.

Normally none of them are great in battle, but honestly these guys are definitely usable. Don't get me wrong, Caspar is potentially the worst playable character in the game, but Killer Knuckles+, Death Blow, Fierce Iron Fist still works fine on him. You could also make him fairly easily into a Vantage + Wrath build (maybe as a Hero, but more likely as a Warrior). 

If you're recruiting Ashe, it's not gonna be for his battle ability (he just isn't really capable of killing things, and other units can fill his niches better). If you really wanna use him, send him through Thief for the mastery (that way he can have Steal and Locktouch regardless of what class he's in, and he'll be fast enough at least to steal from armours and some cavalry when necessary) and then put him in a flying class so he can reach chests better. Alternatively, he can act as a debuff unit (send him through Wyvern for Seal Def, but then put that on a Sniper or Bow Knight - Waning Shot will seal two stats at once, and Shatter Slash will seal defense a lot). Since it's NG+, you could even gift him Poison Strike, but that might be too much effort considering debuff + chip builds aren't that necessary on NG+ anyway. 

Hanneman excels as a Magic Bow sniper (lol am gonna keep selling this build because it's just so amazing). Other mages will outperform him with spells (especially if you have DLC Constance) but Hanneman just is best suited to pull off Magic Bow sniper. I've already spent ages praising him elsewhere, so I won't do it again though

Caspar and Ashe have never made my endgame team, so I'm not gonna pretend like other units aren't going to outperform them, especially if you're recruiting everyone. But Mercedes is the best healer in the game, so recruit Caspar to get their Part II paralogue at least. Golden Deer gets Catherine fairly early, so you don't have to recruit Ashe at all (and actually you have to re-recruit him in VW as well, so there's an argument that he's one of the worse recruits for VW). 

3 hours ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

I'm doing my first gd maddening playthrough on a new game+ file and I'm not sure which units to recruit. Any offers? And if so, what builds?

 

Edit: I'm definitely using leonie, claude, sylvain, hilda, lysithea and ignatz

As far as people you wanna recruit, who you didn't mention in this post:

Felix and Petra are amazing full stop. They can do most physical classes - you might have heard about Felix and bows, and VW as a route also loves bows, which works out great. But basically fitting builds around any of their advantages works out great (maybe give Petra some hit rate help though).

Catherine is also very good and does similar things to Felix,  and might be a bit easier to recruit. Shamir is another easy recruit, can do good damage in a pinch, and gives might bonuses to Catherine, so you can use either of them quite effectively.

Ingrid and Ferdinand are good units with good paralogue rewards. They may perform well for you so keep them around, but they won't make or break your run. 

Mercedes is the best healer, but IMO Flayn is second-best (doesn't have Physic, but has Rescue), and comes free, so Mercedes isn't technically necessary

Linhardt is a good recruit for his paralogue with Leonie, but it's unlikely that you'll use him when you'll have Lysithea, Marianne and Flayn.

The DLC characters are good if you have access to them - you may as well recruit them all, but you probably won't use more than two in your endgame team (Balthus is a straight upgrade on Raph, Hapi is a straight upgrade on Linhardt, Constance has Bolting and Rescue, Yuri is a speedy Assassin/Sniper)

Alois and Seteth are both very decent, but they come quite late, and you're unlikely to have enough trouble on NG+ that you need to invest significantly in them. Of course if you like their characters, then go wild.

Cyril and Manuela are just a bit meh combat-wise in my opinion.

The remaining house members (Annette, Ashe, Caspar, Dorothea, Bernadetta) are by no means bad, but Caspar is the only one you really need to recruit for paralogue rewards, and none of them are particularly powerful. Part of this is also my personal preference - I don't really use rallybots or low-HP builds, for example, and if you do, then you'll love Annette and/or Bernadetta. 

 

 

[The Fire Emblem 3 Houses General Questions Thread]

51 minutes ago, iridium137 said:

1. Can I buy multiple S-ranks in New Game+?

2. If I S-rank a bisexual character, then start a New Game+ with the opposite gender Byleth, can I buy back the S-rank with that character?

1. Depends on how many runs you have in that chain. IIRC I was only able to buy one S-rank on my first NG+, but then 4 on my second. I S-ranked Claude on my first NG+ run, so I don't know if that affected the number of buyable S-ranks or not

2. I S-ranked Linhardt my first ever playthrough, and he's been S-rankable forever since, regardless of Byleth's gender. So yes.

[Fire Emblem Three Houses Magic System Analysis]

On 5/18/2020 at 12:53 AM, Kiran_ said:

The split between Black/Dark was executed very poorly, but I personally loved it lore wise. It was essentially the difference between "normal" magic, and magic created by those dark methods from those that had been experimented on (I'm assuming since Hubert worked with those that slither, he had access to their powers). I do like the idea of it just being all under "Reason" or something, but I understand the lore/story behind it, which I appreciated. But it did greatly hinder classes in how they implemented it.

Lol I don't know if this thread is properly alive or not, but I really wanted to second this point. It's certainly annoying that dark magic and black magic aren't grouped under the same banner, but I think there are probably deep and well-considered lore reasons for this.

Tbh there's actually lots of mystery about dark magic still. Like why is Dark Mage/Bishop Hubert's canon class as an enemy, but Dark Seals are only ever accessible by robbing/killing the Death Knight? Why can Edelgard and Jeritza wield both black and dark magic (especially when Lysithea, who underwent experimentation very like Edelgard's, only has dark magic)? Why should dark magic even be the result of experimentation, and what does that say about basically every other dark mage in the game (with the exception of the fog caster in Ch. 3, all enemy dark mages belong to either the Western Church or TWSITD directly)? What do the Greek capital letters tell us about the spells/fake Relics, if anything? 

I'm not sure if any of those questions have answers, but I think all this is supposed to point to this idea that dark magic is an actual 'other', something truly unexplained, rather than simply another fantasy trope. The world feels more fleshed out because the mechanics behind dark magic point to something slightly different from what Fodlan knows magic to be in general. At least, it's a bit deeper than previous titles' use of dark magic, which is basically just "look I'm a bad guy who's read a book."

 

As far as the magic system more generally goes, I''d have liked to see some greater difference between Reason and Faith across the board. Like perhaps Reason goes back to being tome-based, but Faith remains innate to characters. Anything else I would say has already pretty much been covered by the above comments.

 

 

[Best and worst maps in 3H]

15 hours ago, Timlugia said:

I agree, Rhea should be a playable unit in this level and the next one. Making the stake much higher. There is no lore or gameplay reason not able to.

In chapter 12 you were supposedly to protect her, but since she's so far back on the top of map guarded by lots of knights, enemy almost never even able to get close, making this objective pretty much meaningless.

In fact I think every level Rhea that was present should be playable, including Ashe's paralouge and Shambhala, again, no lore reason not able to, and can flash out some of her arc more

Completely agreed about Rhea being playable -  lots of people have complained how she's not even playable in SS, even though unlike similar characters in other FE titles, there is a really strong case for her inclusion. But lol at least Rhea in Ch. 12 doesn't charge like an idiot - I guess we should be thankful for small mercies.

15 hours ago, Ertrick36 said:

Also don't like that one city chapter.  You know, the one where at least two paralogues take place in.  Maybe I just get sick and tired of playing the same map over and over again, but I've never had fun playing this map

Do you mean the one with Felix/Sylvain's paralogue? I think if you do aux battles even just a little then this map becomes stale fast, which is a shame because apart from AI stupidity those paralogues aren't bad.

14 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Am I the only one that thought Miklan's chapter was fine, but just didn't like how dumb Gilbert's AI is?

I kinda had this sentiment as well - the chapter is a slog because there's so much ground before enemies, but that felt on purpose, so at least I can accept the devs were trying to create that feel (even if they overdid it). But Gilbert's AI is especially dumb - if he gets far enough away from the reinforcements, he'll just keep bombing up the map and leave whoever you sent to help him out to die. But that's still better than charging headfirst into mages and repeatedly missing (frustrating cause he can't ORKO anything in Hard/Maddening anyway), or charging at monster Miklan and taking up a space to attack from (and then getting whipped). What an ass. Not rewarding you for keeping him alive is also a kick in the teeth because that adds at least 3-4 turns to your playthrough/makes the whole map harder.

14 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

By the way, what did you think of Chapter 12 of Crimson Flower?

I absolutely second your comment about how it genuinely feels like a back-and-forth, and the gimmicks are interesting without being tiresome. If I had to complain, I would say that Jeritza ought to become playable from the moment he arrives - even if you can't have Randolph/Ladislava, getting Jeritza late would be better integration of the DLC than dumping him in at the beginning of Part II (and be more like how Seteth in Ch. 12 and Gilbert Ch. 13 arrive). To balance out how much easier that would make the chapter, I'd have put Dimitri and Claude in the enemy reinforcements too. But yeah, definitely a good map, and the best finish to Part I of all the routes.

[Best and worst maps in 3H]

Best maps:

Capturing Derdriu (CF Ch.14) 

Spoiler

Ch. 13 is famously easier on CF compared to other routes, but Capturing Derdriu spikes the difficulty in exactly the right way. The Almyran army makes heavy use of two of the better classes in the game (WL and BK) and while this map is nicer than Edelgard's paralogue, you now have to figure out how to fight when conventional tactics won't work. The map encourages you to take Derdriu quickly (and therefore attack the Leicester army) but all the while Almyran reinforcements are assaulting your position, and since you have to kill all commanders, you can't easily LTC your way out of it. This is the best (and perhaps only) example of Claude's schemes working effectively and being integrated with gameplay. And then there's being able to recruit Lysithea and spare Claude, in line with his philosophy for saving as many of his people as possible. Overall, really well-designed I thought.

Tailteann Plains (CF Ch.17)

Spoiler

This battle feels truly epic, and it also feels heavy in a good way. The rain and the mud mean all but fliers are impeded, and parts of the map are waterlogged enough to prevent movement - but that doesn't matter for the Faerghus enemies because of the map's gimmick. When you first realise every immobile unit is basically a kamikaze waiting to happen, you have to pick up a really punishing pace so that you're not overwhelmed. But Mercedes and Rhea make that really difficult (especially if you split up at the beginning), and Rhea in particular will completely destabilise you if she's left to run around. We're evoking memories of the opening cutscene of the game, and even though we know this wasn't Dimitri's original plan, we still feel like the Faerghus-Church alliance is actually capable of turning things around. Also, gameplay decisions with Dedue give you two equally affecting, but very different moments - it was nice to see that taken into account.

Danger in the Dark (CS Ch. 4)

Spoiler

It's true that other maps become impractical if you don't do certain things/get clears quickly, but this is the only map in the game where I actually felt pressure from the turn counter. I really liked the implementation of the 3rd army here - it really was a madcap melee of everyone fighting everyone, with the Golems there to push along the pace. The conditions made sense (arriving with everyone, even though not everyone even has to survive in other chapters) and created the genuine feel of an escape mission. I wouldn't have minded it if all the enemies actively chased you, even through the gates, but still it was a lot of fun, and made strong use of the map mechanisms while still allowing for different tactics to be used.

Worst maps:

The Holy Tomb (Ch.11, but especially going into CF)

Spoiler

The main reason for this being one of my worst maps is some story/gameplay segregation shenanigans (like how an entire force just sneaks behind Rhea and co. including several Demonic Beasts). Similarly, leaving the choice to side with Edelgard till after you fight her makes absolutely no sense - if you know that the BE route split follows this map directly, and that you'll choose CF, this map feels completely pointless. Even if you don't know either of those things, playing as Black Eagles in this map is really confusing, because you don't know why you're fighting. This bleeds through into gameplay - if Rhea were on the map and at risk, for example, that would make much more sense. Stopping the thieves is fine as a secondary objective, but the map still forces you to be the aggressor and go on the offensive, rather than having Byleth and co. protecting the Crest Stones from the Flame Emperor and her marauders - reorienting the objectives would have made this map far more sensible, and perhaps made the reveal a bit more powerful on GD/BL.

Battle of the Eagle and the Lion (VW Ch. 17)

Spoiler

I don't mind this battle on AM, because at least Claude and the Leicester Alliance get addressed. But on VW, Dimitri just kinda rocks up out of nowhere, and is sufficiently out of his mind to be attacking you (even though Claude's been a good boy before then). If you haven't played AM before VW, this makes zero sense, and makes the three-way battle feel particularly forced. This map would have been a great place for Claude trickery, but not only does Edelgard turn the tables on him, she does it with the same device that already got used in the Garreg Mach defence. Not only that, but reinforcements somehow come out from your own starting position (which just makes no sense). In general the battle feels superfluous for the VW route, and the fact that Dimitri gets killed offscreen (regardless of what happens in battle) is icing on the crap cake. Poor execution both in gameplay and in story.

Sword and Shield of Seiros (Shamir/Alois paralogue)

Spoiler

The paralogue has some of the weakest rewards in the game, but one of the tougher conditions to achieve them (preventing anyone from getting into the town). Given that there are infinite fliers on this map, that means you have to be consistently guarding against dragons just popping in, which might be physically impossible to do early on depending on when you attempt the paralogue and what house you're in. However, the best reward from this paralogue can only be gotten in Chapter 11, once you recruit Alois (the Holy Knights of Seiros battalion), at which point the paralogue serves little purpose for grinding anyway - meaning the most convenient thing to do is an LTC clear. This paralogue basically never gets the balance right, and doesn't even really reward the player for engaging the map properly. A shame because I like both those characters, too. 

2 hours ago, Evalko said:

My personal favourite is the final map of Crimson Flower. It feels like this big climactic showdown of you fighting surrounded by proof of the atrocities Rhea has committed, attempting to put an end to the evil once and for all. Fighting Catherine, Cyril, Gilbert, Ashe and Annette while making your way slowly through the flames, carefully destroying the golems, and defending reinforcements felt really cool to me. The final showdown against Rhea and sending your strongest units who are usually Byleth and Edelgard felt really cool as well.

Crimson Flower as a route kinda sucked overall and Edelgard deserved better, but that final map I believe is the best one out of all the routes.

This is quite interesting to hear - I had the opposite opinion, where I enjoyed the route (even though it was short) but I found the endgame to be the least climactic of the four routes. The fire was cool to see and forced you to think a little gameplay-wise, but as has been discussed elsewhere its integration with the story could have been better. Similarly, I can understand why Ashe and Annette would be in that map even after Dimitri's defeat, but it still feels a little forced.

Ultimately, though, my main issue with CF endgame is that it actually encourages cheesing tactics (which I discovered by accident on my 2nd CF run). Killing Ashe and Gilbert are two out of three of the reinforcement triggers in the map, and the leftmost path is both difficult to reach for non-fliers and the furthest from your army, which means that everybody going right (the path with Catherine) is significantly more optimal than anything else. So while it's perfectly legit to attempt to fight everyone, it's actually simpler and easier to avoid all the named units except Catherine and Rhea. Ashe, Gilbert and Annette won't move until Rhea takes her first hit, and it'll take them at least three turns to reach you because of the terrain, which is enough time to wipe Rhea out even on Maddening. Cyril doesn't move at all for some reason (I think his AI only triggers if you come at Rhea from his side of the map - I left multiple units in his range but he didn't go for any of them). Worst of all, though, is that Rhea is significantly easier than in Silver Snow, and that's putting aside the fact that Raging Storm is a thing in CF. I feel like all the other endgame maps not only are successful in overwhelming you with numbers, but encourage you to face those numbers head-on in a way that CF endgame actually doesn't - perhaps that's meant to convey how the Empire is in a better relative position than the other pre-endgame armies, but for me it was a bit underwhelming.

[Is there really anything about Hubert that makes him likable? (Crimson Flower spoilers)]

1 minute ago, RainbowMoon said:

From this thread: https://forums.serenesforest.net/index.php?/topic/88696-time-locked-support-conversations-compilation-thread-minor-spoilers/

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"With the notable exceptions of Alois and Gilbert, every character's C-support with Byleth is only available pre-skip"

This is good to know, thank you!

2 minutes ago, RainbowMoon said:

There's only one spot left in my party and it's between him and Jeritza..

Hahaha yeah that sounds like a fairly easy choice if Hubert has been benched all this time.

[Does DLC add to Maddening enjoyment?]

It sounds like overall you shouldn't bother with the paid DLC. The Cindered Shadows chapters on Hard/Classic are more difficult than the main game on Hard, but easier than the main game on Maddening. And if you clear those DLC chapters, then you can (but aren't forced to) recruit four new characters in the main game, that are very likely to make up for weaker characters in any of the houses.

All the other DLC upgrades are either quality of life (costumes, buying paired endings) or making the game easier (new ways to boost WEXP, more quests giving battalions, Renown and items, profitable aux battles, two new characters, one of whom makes a specific route even easier, and some stat boosters/equippables).

So yeah if difficulty is the only reason you're coming back, the DLC only makes the game easier - unless you're also a completionist or care a lot about supports, there's no reason for you to buy it.

[Maddening Team Builds Examples]

It's a fair point that on NG runs in particular, you should be looking to maximise the effectiveness of each unit in the context of their house, which means that Annette should be one of your go-to magic attackers until at least Ch. 13. I've found in particular that she's one of the faster mages in the game, which means she's doubling more often in the early game than other mages (which at least originally makes up for her spell list perhaps).

Of course, that is just within the context of the Blue Lions house specifically - for all the reasons @SumG mentioned, and perhaps a couple more, she ends up lacking as a magical attacker in the latter parts of the game when compared to other recruitable mages (to the point where I'd want to recruit a unit specifically to be my magical attacker in the late-game). NG or not, I've recruited her in every run I've done (she has similar requirements to Lysithea, which are also in one of Byleth's proficiencies, so I've always ended up recruiting both of them), and I've found that other mages have consistently outperformed her in Part 2. She is no longer fast enough to double anything that other mages can't double, and tends not to have enough Mag to OHKO (I actually found this happening consistently in late Part I too - perhaps your Annette is Mag-blessed?). But, as you say, Rally Strength in particular is a great Rally throughout the game (especially as a personal), and I think it's because I don't use rallybots in general that Annette hasn't seen almost any action for me in Part 2 - I can understand keeping her in as a rallybot even if she no longer is the best magical attacker I could field. 

Just a warning about Rally Speed, however, that it tails off a fair bit in the lategame. As the game progresses Rally Speed is often no longer enough to stop units from getting doubled, let alone doubling units they otherwise wouldn't. In Maddening enemies tend to branch into two categories - enemies that aren't hard to double (between 0-25 AS from Ch. 13 to Ch. 19-20) and enemies that will normally double any of your party (AS in the late 30s and up). The latter category will pretty consistently be out of your reach - you aren't likely to have more than one unit who won't get doubled by sword users/fliers even when you use rallies/dance on them, and there will be enough speedy units around for you to expect that lots of your army will have to engage them. I don't think that it affects Annette's rallybot status (she still has the best set of rally skills in the game), but it is a consideration for using her in your late-game team.

[Mixed Builds - A Thread]

15 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Fair, other than the part where other magic weapons benefit more from the upgrade than Aura Knuckles.

There isn't such a competition for Arcane Crystal or gold that you can't afford to upgrade Aura Knuckles in the mid-to-late game. 

15 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Just like the Aura Knuckles? Because the units that have an easy time getting to A in brawling have poor magic, which discourages their use.

Not just like the Aura Knuckles, because there are at least some units who both could want them and can utilise them - there is nobody who ever wants Venin weapons that can get them at a time when they are useful. We've already discussed the cases with physical brawlers - I'm happy to agree that not all of them want Aura Knuckles, and my argument acknowledges that the Aura Knuckles aren't useful to all brawlers, but can be effective on some units.

16 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

But I do take issue when the profit fails to justify the investment, and I have no reason to feel that is not the case here, especially considering the sacrifices I have to make.

In this case the profit would be greater raw attack than any single spell on any mage class could achieve. If you think the investments (brawling training, loss of some spell charges, War Monk the class) are too much, then there isn't much else I can say to change your mind. On balance though, I don't think it's obvious that the investment does fail to justify the profit. After all, there's normally at least one slot in your army dedicated to a magic attacker, if not more, and raw magic attack ought to be a big deciding factor in who gets into that slot.

16 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

On the other hand, I have yet to see a reason why this would work in practice,

I set out the theory above. The idea being that if I follow that theory, it should work in practice. The burden on proof was subsequently on you to show that the theory doesn't work, or there is some practical objection to achieving the effects I set out, which I don't think you've done.

16 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

There's no way in hell you can convince me it's worth sacrificing three uses of Bolting. Also, I tend to be rather cynical regarding hybrid classes, since in general, very few, if any, characters can be good in one.

While it isn't obvious that Constance is going to be a Gremory, I take your point that losing any charges on a siege tome is painful. If you'd rather have Bolting, choose a different mage. Any canon mage without a weakness in Brawling will do this build just fine, and achieve better raw attack than Constance or anybody else in Gremory. 

I also agree that cynicism about hybrid classes is healthy, and I think 3H doesn't really encourage them, despite allowing for their possibility. But that doesn't mean that they can't work, or that you should dismiss effective options out of hand when they are presented to you.

16 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

They also force you up close, which is generally not good on Maddening. 

Up close is an issue we agree on, and again one I acknowledged earlier. In general, though, it doesn't change much. Your mage was unlikely to have an enemy phase regardless, so you just have to make sure that the War Monk is positioned safely or that you're gonna eliminate all in-range enemies on that Player Phase. There's even a chance that War Monk's growths will have given the unit enough HP to tank a hit. But if safe positioning isn't possible, then the War Monk can still use their spell charges, or Pneuma Gale for chipping.

16 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

That being said, while my most recent run involves Falco Marianne, I had her qualify for Wyvern because having to rely on a magic weapon for damage is not a good position to be in, seeing as they tend to be rather inaccurate. Which, once again, the magic hit formula, which averages out the Dexterity and Luck stats, doesn't help much with. 

I'm assuming FK Marianne is relying on Levin Sword+ in this run? I'm not sure why you think magic weapons are 'so' inaccurate - on average I don't think they're worse than most physical weapons in this regard, and they often do better. I mean, Levin Sword might lose to a Javelin or an Iron Bow in terms of accuracy, but Marianne throwing a Javelin is gonna deal inconsequential damage for most of the game.

Besides, Marianne is lucky in that she gets Frozen Lance and Soulblade, both of which can often OHKO, and are certainly going to do more damage than anything she's using her Strength stat for - it means that she can use swords and lances profitably for much of the game.

If you've turned Marianne into a non-magic class in the first place, then the main thing she's gonna be doing is magical combat art damage, or using a Levin Sword - why would you put her in FK or WL if you distrust mixed builds so much?

[What determines Major or Minor Crests?]

50 minutes ago, Timlugia said:

You said "Those who are first-generation recipients of Nabatean flesh or blood also seem to have Major crests"

That's incorrect, since enemy in Silver Snow has minor crests, and Seteth already identified them as people received blood from Rhea.

It's simple fact: there are people getting blood from Rhea with only minor crests, so not every first gen recipient a major crest.

 

The Ten Elites and Jeralt are confirmed cases of transfusion. We don't know what happened with the blood in the religious rite, whether it was transfused or not, which is why I didn't include them as evidence. The first-gen cases we were talking about before this point have all been cases of transfusion, and that's what's been discussed till now.

59 minutes ago, Timlugia said:

As for your argument of crest fragments making them minor crest, that's at best your own headcanon unless you can find in game source to support it

I'm not saying that this is actually true, only that this is possible. The point is that things are more complicated than you portrayed them to be, there are lots of potential explanations, and no one theory proposed so far explains everything.

1 hour ago, Timlugia said:

And how is Aelfric irrelevant? He's a Cardinal, the high ruling member of the church, according to Tomas. And Seteth just said all higher member in the church has to take blood from Rhea. Where do you think he's minor Crest of Seiros came from?

Like I said, his minor crest could just as easily have been inherited (honestly this seems more likely to me). But Aelfric is in any case an exception rather than an example of the rule, because he appears in different circumstances (CS, which occupies a weird place regarding main story) to the White Beast Cardinals. If CS and SS endgame were truly integrated in this respect, then we might expect mention of Aelfric having a Crest Stone fragment in CS, but we don't get that. 

 

 

51 minutes ago, Timlugia said:

don't understand why you keep bringing out 10 elites or Apostles for they are irrelevant to this argument

When you said the below

6 hours ago, Timlugia said:

Not necessary actually, all the cardinals only has minor crests despite

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they received blood directly from Rhea.

I assumed you meant the four apostles, rather than the guys from SS endgame. And when you said

3 hours ago, Timlugia said:

Not just Aelfric but all the ones in Silver Snow Ch21 Final Battle

I thought you were actually trying to reply to my comment about the 10 Elites in the final battle of VW. Basically I misunderstood what point you were originally trying to make, and then thought you were replying to stuff I had said - that's my bad.

[Mixed Builds - A Thread]

Yeah Constance is probably the only mage who's actually built towards War Cleric. Because she gets a boon and can get Mystic Blow quite early, I think there's space to complicate her progression even on an NG run. She'd appreciate Valkyrie for Uncanny Blow, and she'd only need a C in Riding to get the opportunity to class in.

I'd imagine her endgame skill set to be Brawl Prowess, Reason Lv, Fiendish Blow, Uncanny Blow, and Brawl Avo +20, which can be replaced by either Magic Range +1 or a faire skill if she gets it (or even Mag +2 if her Avo is awful enough for the skill not to matter).

[What determines Major or Minor Crests?]

43 minutes ago, Timlugia said:

And I never argued four Apostles were first generation, you might confused me with another person. I was the person in another thread questioning if Four Apostles could actually be dragons themselves since the game also called them saints and they somehow has same dresses as the Five Saints. Aubin also seem to implied to live all the way just before the game begins.

If the four apostles aren't first gen, then they also aren't relevant to your original point, which was that first-gen Crest bearers don't necessarily have Major Crests. I mean, they also could be Nabateans, but again if they were then they aren't relevant to this point you were originally making

45 minutes ago, Timlugia said:

Seteth made very clear that those humans received blood from Rhea as part of ritual.  Rhea calling Aelfric as one of her "children" also proved this.

You're conflating two very different things. There is absolutely no reason to believe that the White Beasts from SS endgame are at all like the Four Apostles, not least because there is no evidence that the Four Apostles transformed into beasts ever. It also certainly isn't true that the Apostles got their Crests from Rhea, because none of them had the Crest of Seiros. So even if this religious ritual had happened, where Rhea gave them blood and Crest Stone fragments, it would have no bearing on the Apostles' status as Crest-bearers, and so no bearing on the above argument.

As for the White Beasts, I agree that it's strange that they have Minor Crests of Seiros (no other monsters apart from Edelgard have Crests of any kind), but they have also undergone a different process to almost everyone else in the game. They've been given Seiros' blood and a Crest Stone fragment, rather than just one or the other. This combination might be what creates the Minor Crest. It's unclear, for example, that the blood was transfused into them - they could have drank it, and this might change the process. The monster-fication process in tandem with the blood might also be the reason for the Crest change. While I agree this is a wrinkle in the first-gen theory, it doesn't conclusively prove it false.

48 minutes ago, Timlugia said:

  Quote

• Rhea: I owe you no words on the matter. But I will tell you this... She made the choice to die, that her offspring might live. I respected her will. Nothing more. Aelfric. Just as I viewed her, so do I view you. You are as my own child. Please, cease this futility.

Rhea is attempting to appease an unstable man, hence her appeal to their bond as superior to trusted subordinate (Aelfric was in the monastery for ages, they would have spent time together). Rhea is actually comparing Aelfric to Sitri, who she created from nothing (and is in a more literal sense her child). You've taken this quote out of context, and made it look as if Aelfric also took part in this ritual, but it's a completely different scene and situation to SS endgame. Aelfric just isn't relevant to this discussion I think.

It's far more likely that Aelfric's Crest (and the Crests on other enemies in the CS map) is hereditary - the Crest of Seiros is relatively common in Fodlan. Hell, Aelfric himself was doing shady experiments on Crest blood - he might have given Crests to his men (though it's unclear whether he even could do that). 

[The many questions about Jeralt's background]

2 hours ago, Timlugia said:

Why does Jeralt has major crests?

I think the theory that transfusion from Nabatean to human results in a Major Crest for the human is a pretty solid one.

2 hours ago, Timlugia said:

Why was there no record about him (or his alter egos) in the past being the strongest knight lived?

We don't know that there weren't rumours/a record of this. But there could be any number of reasons for it, including that he wasn't always a strong knight, that he didn't display his skills on purpose, or that he didn't get the opportunity to. Like a lot of your questions, though, the game unfortunately just doesn't give answers.

2 hours ago, Timlugia said:

How much Jeralt knows about Rhea's greater scheme?

Thing is, Rhea didn't really have a greater scheme that we know of. There was a strong desire to resurrect Sothis (which it's unlikely anyone knew about except Rhea before the events of 3H), but we don't know what she did during Jeralt's lifespan to that end apart from the Byleth plan, or if she did anything else at all. And of course, it seems clear that Jeralt knew fairly little about Sitri/Byleth anyway. 

2 hours ago, Timlugia said:

Why did Rhea trust him so much after he "betrayed" her and burn down the monastery?

This is pretty weird for us as players being thrown into the narrative, but she does have at least a century's worth of history with Jeralt at this point, as well as being his saviour, which is probably where her trust comes from.

2 hours ago, Timlugia said:

Why did Jeralt keep using his "real name" during exile? How could you conceal yourself from church leading one of most prominent merc group named after yourself?

Jeralt was probably expecting having left the knights to be enough - he didn't leave on particularly bad terms, remember. He only wanted to conceal Byleth from Rhea - she had no reason to go after Jeralt at all because she didn't think he had anything she wanted.

Also, mercenary groups probably weren't very official things, like we imagine guilds or parties to be in a cliche fantasy setting. The mercenaries were "Jeralt's Mercenaries" because Jeralt commanded them and paid them - it's unlikely that they were well-known to the public at all, and even to their clients they would have just been 'mercenaries'. The only reason we have that name is because of the battalion named for them, and Byleth/Jeralt's faction in the prologue - in both cases the name is just for gameplay convenience, because all battalions/factions need names of some kind. 

[What determines Major or Minor Crests?]

Aelfric wasn't an Apostle, so isn't relevant in this question.

As for the guys in Verdant Wind Ch 22, (this is where Claude's route differs from Silver Snow), you'll note that while Minor Crest bearers are specified as having Minor Crest of X, Major Crest bearers are only specified as having Crest of X. If you look at the labels on that map, all the enemy 10 Elites are listed as having Crests. See the below screenshots for proof.

 

 

[What determines Major or Minor Crests?]

2 hours ago, Timlugia said:

Not necessary actually, all the cardinals only has minor crests despite

  Hide contents

they received blood directly from Rhea

I'm pretty sure you've got this confused. I mean, I'm fairly sure all of them had Major Crests, although I can't remember where exactly I got that info from so am happy to suspend judgement for now.

However, even assuming they only had Minor Crests, there isn't positive evidence to indicate that the Four Apostles were for sure 1st-generation. The resurrection ritual happened nearly two centuries after the war against Nemesis, which means that while they could be 1st-gen, they also might not be. If they were 1st-gen, it's likely that they did have Major Crests (because on top of @lenticular's examples there's also the 10 Elites that you face in VW endgame who have Major Crests). And if they weren't 1st-gen, then obviously they don't affect this question.

It is also extremely, extremely unlikely that they received blood from Rhea (since they don't have the Crest of Seiros, and there is no record of them getting a transfusion of blood for any other reason). 

2 hours ago, Timlugia said:

The most obvious speculation is the crest power is correlated how much blood they received from Nabatean.

Putting aside questions about Nabatean physiology, humans in the real world replace blood cells after three months. So if humans in Fodlan have anything like our biology, then in order to continue bearing a Crest they'd have to have some way to continue making Nabatean blood, or the vector that actually carries the Crest attributes isn't the blood itself.

Or it might be the case that Nabatean blood is weird and different, and somehow stays in the system permanently, but that raises a whole host of other questions. Does that mean the strength of one's Crest changes depending on how much the bearer bleeds (gameplay suggests not)? How about the case of Edelgard getting a Major Crest, and therefore blood, from (probably) Nemesis - that can't be explained by this system. Point being, things are a little more complex than a first look suggests.

[Is there really anything about Hubert that makes him likable? (Crimson Flower spoilers)]

4 minutes ago, RainbowMoon said:

Unfortunately I think I've missed the chance for all of his supports, but I'm considering un-benching him if I have enough Dark Seals to get him into Dark Knight.

I wasn't aware that any of his supports were locked to pre-timeskip (they might be, I just haven't heard that before).

Dark Mage is decent (Dark Bishop is fine too, but IMO not worth it), but regardless Hubert doesn't need Dark Seals or a specific class certification to get into Dark Knight, just a Master Seal like the other Master classes.

[Is A 3 Houses Ironman Possible?]

I think as mentioned above, prior knowledge is key. If you don't allow yourself the ability to research anything about the game, or even just the structure of the route at hand, you're almost definitely gonna get deaths. Even if you were to avoid all auxiliary battles/paralogues, I think it'd be straight up impossible if you don't plan on letting allies die either (i.e. Ch. 5 Gilbert, or Randolph/Ladislava in Ch. 12 CF).

[What determines Major or Minor Crests?]

22 hours ago, lenticular said:

Maybe Nabatean physiology is sufficiently different from ours that some sort of horizontal gene transfer actually is possible? Maybe their immune system can work somehat like viruses, co-opting human cells for their own purpose, and the crests they leave behind are similar to endogenous retroviruses? Maybe this could be related to how crest stones transform people into demonic beasts? It would be an interesting line of speculation, but goes beyond what is reasonable to assume was intentional by the game's writers and also beyond my knowledge of genetics, so I'll stop my speculation there.

This is really interesting - I hadn't even stopped to consider how strange it is that a different species can donate blood to humans without killing/maiming them. It would make a perverse kind of sense if Crests were actually a genetic virus that got spread to humans. But yeah, expanding this further would probably be more wishful thinking than not.

22 hours ago, lenticular said:

Maybe a large group of genes that determine crest strength, but then only a single gene for crest type? That would fit in with some of my ideas, and also explain how Flayn and Seteth have different crests and how House Riegan can be a cadet branch of House Blaiddyd, for instance.

Yeah Flayn and Seteth definitely need explanation. I mean, it isn't inconceivable that Flayn's mother was Nabatean and had Flayn's crest - it was just named after Cethleann instead of her mother. Or the new Crest was the result of a mutation of the gene for Crest type. Having a large group of genes determine Crest strength might also help explain the difference in activation rates between different Major/Minor Crests.

22 hours ago, lenticular said:

I also wonder how much connection there is between different crests that have identical in-game effects. At first, I thought that maybe they might literally be the same thing but given different names due to in-world traditions, but then I remembered that there is one in-game difference: how they interact with heroes' relics. The crests of Goneril and Cichol are otherwise identical, but that still doesn't let Seteth use Apocalyptic Flame if you give him Freikugel. Just one more mystery of crests that we will probably never know, I guess.

Yeah I've wondered about this too. Originally I just figured it was like how the colour of a person's skin can be the same as another person's, despite different genes being at work in both of them. The combination of genes has the same effect, even though the individual genes in each of them are different. But if the type of Crest is related to just one gene (which actually seems more likely than not in this genetics theory) then there's no explaining it beyond the fact that multiple genes/Crests just do have the same effect. I guess that isn't the most bitter pill to swallow, but it would mean we have to turn somewhere else to explain the interaction between Relic and Crest. Maybe if Relics are made of Nabatean bone, then they still possess the bone marrow inside of them that produces blood/has blood-making stem cells, and therefore a sample of blood within them, and it's blood calling out to blood? Still doesn't explain the tone effect though, and I'm also wandering into over-speculation now. 

 

[Is there really anything about Hubert that makes him likable? (Crimson Flower spoilers)]

I'm also a really big fan of Hubert. It feels like he has the most interesting life outside of what we see in the game, it's fun having a dark mage vizier character on your team for a change, and his relationship with Edelgard is I think a bit more dynamic than any of the other retainers with their lords.

I don't really care that he comes off like an ass either - I find it really interesting that he never apologises for his personality or his priorities. It's cool to see a lot of characters (this happens especially to BE characters, but it's a general trend) get over their preconceptions about the world and open up, but some people just don't, and they don't care to. Hubert is one such character (there are others, like Linhardt, who also don't give a crap about what people think) and it's an interesting balance with the emotional arcs of other characters, especially the ones he supports with. 

[Mixed Builds - A Thread]

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

You only get a handful in the first part, and I might see those as better used for repairing Levin Swords. And they're not exactly cheap when you can buy them. That said, Venomstones being a luck of the draw thing is annoying.

Yep, it costs 4 Arcane Crystal to turn a Levin Sword into a Levin Sword+ and 4 Arcane Crystal to turn Steel Knuckles into Aura Knuckles, so there is competition. But you probably won't need more than one pair of Aura Knuckles per run, and if you really want to, the + upgrade can be delayed till Ch. 16 when you can buy Arcane Crystal, if necessary. Honestly, by Ch. 16 you shouldn't be having money troubles unless you only fight in chapter battles. And the build I described above probably won't be ready for Aura Knuckles till at least Ch.14-15 or so anyway - Arcane Crystal availability shouldn't be an issue IMO. 

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

For what it's worth, being iron lite isn't bad when in general, you probably don't want to be using heavy weapons.

Venin Lances, for example, have ten fewer uses than Iron Lances and weigh 1 point more, and there's no difference in Mt/Hit. Also bear in mind it's far easier to upgrade iron weapons than it is to upgrade venin weapons - four Venomstone is ridiculously hard to come by, you'd either have to feed lots of animals with high-grade food or get really lucky with Demonic Beasts.

Given that the earliest you're likely to get them is probably Ch. 9, I just don't know why you wouldn't keep an iron weapon (+) for normal combat and bring a steel/silver weapon for CA usage instead of bringing a venin weapon at all. They just aren't helpful when they do become accessible.

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I don't know about you, but personally, I'm put off by the fact that I would have to deliberately make an investment that doesn't even yield any profit, because mages can't equip gauntlets. Especially since War Monk only gets halved spell uses, which I find a dealbreaker when most units get some pretty valuable spells. So I cannot see how you can say "they aren't bad" when the opportunity cost is huge and I'm wasting a mage's potential

It's not that the investment yields no profit, it's that the investment yields no immediate profit. Dancer Marianne (or indeed any dancer) loves Mv +1, for example, but will spend a decent chunk of the game training Riding without it helping in the moment. There are any number of things in the game that don't give profit for a while but eventually are of good benefit - you're looking to the future, that's what a build plan is. It's not as if mages were missing anything by not being able to use gauntlets that aren't Aura Knuckles anyway - but their eventual offensive boost when they can use them would be amazing. 

As for War Monk, I've found that mages are particularly short-changed with spells like Thoron, siege tomes, and Warp (otherwise they have enough spell charges to do the requisite amount of chip damage/support). Obviously "some magic" is still a pain, and it is a sacrifice you're making for gauntlets, but as I've illustrated above, the rewards on attack are worth it. If you're worried about the potential cost, just choose a mage you weren't gonna use otherwise and who doesn't have a brawling weakness. You can still run as many full mages as you like per map - I'm not suggesting you make all of your mages War Monks, just one.

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Working in theory is one thing. Working in practice is another thing entirely. And it doesn't change the fact that I have to jump through an insane amount of mental hoops to go "oh yeah, War Monk and Aura Knuckles' use is X". Not helping is that they're not that accurate (and the magic hit formula doesn't much help with this), as magic weapons lose durability on whiffed attacks.

Sure, but you've given me no reason to think that this won't work in practice. What obstacles do you foresee to the theory I described above? I'm sorry this seems like an insane amount of mental hoops to you, but this is a game that encourages creative thinking in order to accomplish objectives. Examining all the tools at your disposal, and figuring out how to best utilise them is, I'd say, the mark of a good player. Besides, this is a thread explicitly about using hybrid classes and magic weapons to their full potential - I'm not sure why you're here if it's too much effort for you to think about.

As far as accuracy goes, Aura Knuckles+ has a better hit rate than all the other magic weapons in the game (and the same or better than most weapons in the game, unless they are iron/training weapons or swords). The magic hit formula ignores terrain bonuses and targets magical evasion, which is almost always lower on enemies than their physical evasion, so it definitely helps. Finally, losing durability on missed attacks is a fairly lame reason not to use magic weapons in general - this used to be the case for all weapons in other FE titles, and repairing in this game isn't much of a big deal anyway. 

[What determines Major or Minor Crests?]

Following @lenticular's line of thought, it does seem like the major/minor distinction is quite arbitrary, and mainly there to delineate gameplay mechanics (i.e. major crests trigger more often than minor crests). 

There seem to be only two ways of inheriting a Crest: hereditary, and transfusion.

Transfusion

Spoiler

In the transfusion method, Crests seem to act like blood types in the real world. The average Crestless human can receive blood from a Nabatean/Crest user to gain a Crest, which is medically possible if they have no or an insignificant amount of Crest blood inside them. This is comparable to how AB blood types in the real world are 'universal recipients' and can receive blood from (almost) anyone. AB blood types also can't be transfused into anyone without an AB blood type without bringing on significant side effects (i.e. blood poisoning). If this is true for Crests, it would explain why no one is able to help heal Rhea after the events of Ch. 21 in VW - even though she has lost a lot of blood, nobody has the right blood type to donate to her, despite there being lots of Crest users in Garreg Mach (Manuela notes in the monastery that white magic is a different kind of healing to traditional medicine, which is presumably why priests can't help either). It would also explain why Edelgard's siblings and so many citizens of the Ordelia territory died, but not why Edelgard or Lysithea survived. Anyone who receives a different type of blood will have strong adverse reactions, which Edelgard and Lysithea both report, but it's unclear what is different about either of them that they shouldn't suffer the same fate. Potentially it's the fact that they already bear a Crest, which somehow increased their tolerance to the foreign blood enough to survive into early adulthood?

As noted above, the person you transfuse from affects the strength of the Crest you acquire. Which would suggest that there is at least one further fact about blood apart from its type that dictates what kind of Crest you get from transfusion - but it may go beyond the difference between Nabatean and inherited blood (indeed, what would that difference even be?). For example, both Edelgard and Lysithea received major Crests post-transfusion, even though in at least Edelgard's case TWSITD did not have any supply of Sothis' blood. They did, however, have Nemesis' blood. Putting aside questions of why and how Nemesis' blood might still have been usable, it's unexpected that a first-gen Crest user would be able to supply another human with a Major Crest. There is clearly some further rule to transfusion that the game doesn't clarify.

Hereditary

Spoiler

As for hereditary inheritance, Crests seem to act like dominant/recessive genes in people today. The parents' genes define the range of blood types it is possible for a child to have, but they do not guarantee that a child will have the same blood type as their parents. Which explains why some nobles don't have Crests but their children/parents do. It seems like Crests are themselves a recessive gene, so it isn't always preserved from generation to generation, when it is crowded out by a dominant gene. However, if one parent has the recessive gene linked to a Crest, and the other parent has a different recessive gene (say, linked to a different Crest), that seems like a recipe for a minor Crest. And if both parents have the same recessive gene, that's a recipe for a Major Crest. Of course, the above is a very simplified picture of genetics, and it's likely that if this is true there'd be a group of inter-related genes at work. It's also probably true that other parts of an individual's genetic makeup affect their ability to pass on/inherit Crests - Hanneman, for example, notes that his family line are rich in Crests (his father was a major Indech, his grandfather a minor Indech) but his sister was unable to bear Crest children. It would also explain why there are multiple Crests lurking in the same bloodlines (House Riegan is an offshoot of House Blaiddyd, for example). But this genetics theory doesn't really square with the transfusion method - normal blood transfusions don't change your genetic makeup, and a blood transfusion patient doesn't take on any characteristics of their blood donor. 

 

Note 1: Crest Stones occupy a strange place in this system. We are led to believe that Crest Stones are the hearts of Nabateans, and can transform incompatible humans into Crest Beasts. However, the Crest Stones that the Flame Emperor attempts to steal in Ch. 11 explicitly do not have this effect - when you obtain them, they can't be used, and when you kill someone who holds them, nothing happens to them apart from death. Which would suggest that Crest Stones might have to undergo some further process to have the monster-making effect (which is what TWSITD were experimenting on in Part I). This technology has apparently progressed far enough to turn Crest users into Crest beasts (hence Edelgard in AM endgame), although how this was possible is again left unclear. Somehow, Rhea also knows how to modify Crest Stones in the right way, because Dedue and the Faerghus soldiers of CF Ch.17 can also transform after obtaining those stones from the Church. With the exception of Edelgard, none of these artificial monsters have Crests, either.

This picture is further complicated by the existence of the NG+ Crest Stones. While it's fairly likely that these are just gameplay mechanics rather than story-related, they are called "Dragon Signs" and provide a Crest effect to non-Crest users and Crest users alike. This includes enabling the relevant combat art for a Relic, preventing curse damage from Relics, and providing a significantly diminished chance to trigger the battle effects of that Crest (see mainsite for exact details). If there is a lore-based explanation for them, they'd have to explain what they are and how they're different from the Crest Stones/Crest Stone fragments that we encounter throughout the series.

 

Note 2: It's unclear exactly what the evolutionary purpose of crests were in the first place - Linhardt's Byleth support IIRC notes that crests are pretty much useless outside of battle, which would suggest (assuming that Crests originally arose from some kind of Darwinian process) that the Nabateans were a more warlike race than we were led to believe. It's also unclear why a Nabatean's fighting ability is automatically linked to or enhanced by its blood type, or why their bodies/hearts should react (as shown with Yuri in his paralogue, by emitting an audible tone) to the presence of blood of the same crest type, even when the blood is not in physical contact. Of course, without more info not much can be said about any of those things.

[Mixed Builds - A Thread]

1 minute ago, Shadow Mir said:

However, I don’t think they have nearly as many hurdles in terms of getting to make good use of them as the Aura Knuckles do. There’s also the fact that with the DLC, one paralogue gives me some as drops.

If we're solely talking accessibility, Aura Knuckles are on the whole easier to obtain. They require A+ prof level to forge as opposed to C+ for venin weapons, but Arcane Crystal is far more easily available than Venomstone.

Anna's paralogue does net you a couple of venin weapons fairly easily, but in my view you already have no need for poison by Ch. 9 on Maddening. I mean, you never 'need' poison, but venin weapons would do their best work in the early game, when you sometimes have to let enemies survive your player phase because you don't have enough firepower to kill them, and you don't have weapons better than iron (which is what a venin weapon is equivalent to). Accessibility aside, they also just seem pretty useless.

In contrast, Aura Knuckles require A rank fists to obtain, but I could actually see myself building a unit around it. I can't see a reason to put Venin weapons on anyone ever in an endgame, whereas I could envision building a magic-based fists user and them being in an endgame party. Again, not claiming Aura Knuckles are the best thing to have happened to FE, just that they aren't bad.

The theory at least checks out - assuming I plan it from the beginning of the run I could train any mage who doesn't have a weakness in brawling and they'd eventually get A+. I'd get them to B rank brawling through teaching/adjutant WEXP, and probably have them in magic classes up till B rank fists because every point of mag would help with this build. Once they get B rank brawling, I should have a good chance of certifying WM, at which point I'd stick a knowledge gem on them to get them to master War Monk ASAP, because Pneuma Gale turns every gauntlet into an OK spell (and WM only having some magic means I might need to conserve spell charges). Once that's done, they can relatively leisurely get A-rank fists, when Aura Knuckles kicks in. The average lategame mage we'll say has around 32-3 magic in the late game. With Mag+2 and Fiendish Blow that's 40 Mag, Aura Knuckles has 2 might, and you hit either twice or four times on Player Phase. Let's assume twice, and 84 raw attack (94 with WM's Fistfaire). Let's also assume you keep Lysithea as a true mage, say in Warlock, and for argument's sake she has 38 raw magic, Fiendish Blow, Mag+2, class Tomefaire and her own Tomefaire, and she's using Hades. That's still 74 raw attack (because Lysithea's pretty much never gonna double with Hades). Of course, the trade off is Aura Knuckles only has one range, and that is a big deal because it means the unit has to get in range, which could be dangerous or unfeasible. But in general, you should still be able to kill lots of things without counter, and WM's HP growths can give you enough bulk to take a hit. 

Are there other builds, lower in cost, that can also get kills? Yeah, definitely. Does this build have drawbacks? Sure. And I agree that Aura Knuckles aren't the most useful of weapons generally. But I brought them up in passing to explain why a mage might want to train gauntlets and go into War Monk, when they wouldn't otherwise for Trickster - they bring something that is at least pretty unique and fairly effective to your party, and War Monk gives those mages some much-needed avoidance, a magic combat art, and a Faire skill to boost what is essentially a brave spell. Which is why I said not bad at all.

7 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

She has better movement, speed, and range-of-attack than the infantry magic classes, but misses out on offensive spells and Faith support. It's fun to try out, even if it's not her best build.

I didn't use Alert Stance on Annette - it only activates from Waiting, so it's incompatible with Rallying or using Lightning Axe. I generally had her "fly in, attack, fly back to safety". She might be able to work on enemy phase with Bolt Axe and/or Crusher, but her defenses and attack speed are rather middling. 

Yeah that's gonna bite a little for Lysithea - if I sacrificed the Dancer cert and made her master Mortal Sav, she'd be a pretty dodge-tanky swordswoman, and Warding Blow could boost Soulblade a little. In fact, would it? I can't remember if Darting/Armored Blow do the same for Lance Jab/Armored Strike.

Makes sense with Annette - I'd rather she focused on damage output/being a rallybot than barely having an enemy phase.

[Mixed Builds - A Thread]

7 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Lysithea: B+

I haven't tried out Lysithea in a swords-only build before - this is definitely worth investigating!

7 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Annette: A+

Am gonna try this out for my next run - did she actually have an enemy phase? Did you stick Alert Stance on her or was she able to survive things without it?

[Mixed Builds - A Thread]

4 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

On the contrary, I'd argue the high cost and underwhelming performance are good reasons for me to write them off as the worst weapon in the game. I would even go so far as to consider them one of the worst weapons in the series.

We're probably gonna have to agree to disagree then. For what it's worth, Venin weapons are the least useful weapons in the game IMO, though of course this is now an obvious tangent. 

4 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

"There's a niche for everyone" my left foot. Unless you seriously believe units like Wendy or weapons like PoR's Bolt Axe aren't useless. Getting back to the Aura Knuckles, about the only good thing that can be said about them is that they can quadruple hit... on offense. Not that that makes up for everything else, because it doesn't. Anti-armor? I'd likely do more damage with a Hammer or Armorslayer. Monsters? Tend to be rare, and some of the most threatening ones have higher resistance than defense.

If you don't want to use it that's your choice - 3H is quite good about giving you different ways to accomplish the same objectives. And I'm happy to agree that some weapons/units have less utility than others - I never claimed to praise Aura Knuckles for their accessibility, for example. Doesn't make them useless. 

[Mixed Builds - A Thread]

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I would disagree - having a pool of users that mostly have magic stats that are far lower than their strength means there's no real niche for them, given that against most enemies, I'd expect training gauntlets to do more damage. Their case ain't helped by the fact that the Aura Knuchles are A rank.

I agree that they are niche, in the same way that I wouldn't normally give Magic Bow to any and all of my archers. But that doesn't make them bad - pretty much any natural candidate for War Monk/Cleric appreciates them, and you get surprisingly good results from giving them to magic-oriented units who could feasibly class into War Monk/Cleric.

I also agree that the A Brawling requirement is very high, higher than other magic weapon requirements, but no one who isn't going to be using fists primarily is going into War Monk (or Grappler) anyway, and thus will get to A rank sooner or later. And if I'm for any reason putting in the effort of training a magic-oriented unit for fists, they're going to get at least A+ and be using Aura Knuckles. I'm happy to agree that the cost for them is high, and your Raphaels and Caspars won't want it, but that alone isn't reason to write them off.  

I'd say Aura Knuckles is roughly as good as other magic weapons - you might have one or two units in an endgame party who use a Levin Sword or a Bolt Axe, but that doesn't mean all your sword/axe users want magic weapons, or that they're better than physical options. Unless you've specifically planned your build around them (which is where you get the best results) these other magic weapons are supposed to only provide range boosts and a different kind of attack (different hit formula, different evasion stat, targeting resistance and not defence). Aura Knuckles may not give that same range boost, but it makes up for it with the chance to be a magic attack that hits four times (no other magic can do that). And the unit that uses them doesn't have to have an amazing magic stat to get good usage out of them (i.e. Byleth) although units who do have an amazing magic stat are also amazing with them (i.e. Constance). Watch what they do to monsters with Aura Knuckles, for example - there's at least one niche there. Brawlers traditionally struggle against armours - there's another niche. To borrow @eclipse's phrasing above, "there's a niche for everyone."