haarhaarhaar
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Posts posted by haarhaarhaar
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5 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:
It becomes a matter of how Petra's own values. In VW/AM, if she stays with Edelgard, Petra puts Edelgard above even Brigid, which shows that Petra values Edelgard as a dear friend and refuses to abandon her.
Don't get me wrong, Petra likes and respects Edelgard, but I think her loyalty is more a case of Petra's code of honour than specifically venerating Edelgard. Petra seems like the type to be against betrayal full stop, regardless of who's on her side.
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41 minutes ago, Barren said:
It's pretty hard to combine it with flying (not counting NG+). I mean Ingrid could in theory pull it off but that seems more possible on normal mode than on maddening. Plus 8 move is still plenty great
Yeah agreed - I just about managed it on Hard with Ingrid in VW, but that was at the cost of getting Death Blow and Alert Stance+ (I ran her through Cav and Paladin instead of Brigand and Wyvern so I could continue to train Lances and Swords). It's probably possible if you grind and abuse aux battles though.
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4 hours ago, Barren said:
I also find it interesting that you can combine resistance +2 with her personal ability post time skip to effectively give her resistance +6 if you choose to wait (she gets Res +4 if you wait). So would that be a thing for Wyvern Lord Edelgard since WL's achilles heel (if you could call it that) would be that WL still takes considerable damage from Magic.
So imagine Edelgard as a Wyvern Lord with Axe Prowess, Death Blow, Darting Blow, Resistance +2, Alert Stance + with an accuracy ring since I've also read that her dexterity growth could be a bit of an issue going forward. If resistance +2 isn't really worth the extra protection then something like Lancebreaker or Axe Crit +10 would be fine substitutions.
Lancebreaker is great for Edelgard like you say because of her below-average Dex/Hit (and because she uses Axes) and because there are lots of Falcon Knights in CF Endgame - obviously she can also get B axes fairly quickly so Lancebreaker sees a lot of use.
Most of the booster skills see good use in the early to mid-game when you don't have anything better to run, although mastering Lord isn't normally optimal for Edelgard anyway. Regardless, it's unlikely you'll put booster skills on your endgame party because you'll have enough stat-booster consumables by then to achieve the same effects without wasting a skill slot. The only exceptions are:
Hit +20 (you'd have to artificially boost both Dex and Charm a ridiculous amount to achieve the same effect)
Weight -3/-5 (their endgame utility is debatable, but they are normally more efficient than boosting Str enough to achieve the same effect)
Movement +1 (because everyone wants as much movement as possible and there's lots of competition for the movement-boosting items).
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1 hour ago, paladin21 said:
This is what Petra says right before Edelgard's attack on the Monastery. She didn't have the option to stay out of the fight. She had to choose a side, for her and for Brigid and the rest of the BE were in similar positions.
While I agree that siding with Edelgard is quite understandable in CF, it's forced in any other route. However, after five years of war, everyone has come to believe in their side of the story.
1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:You should also see how Petra reacts in the VW/AM where you don't recruit her:
You need to step away from the idea that Edelgard "forces" her friends to fight for her.
In an effort to put this thread back on track (though I'm also ridiculously guilty of tangents all the time) it is of course canonically the case that Petra fights for the Empire (as I made clear when I began the thread).
The question I'm asking is whether that's the side she 'should' have been on. I personally think it is, because at the time of making the decision (Ch.11-12) the Empire appears stronger than any other combatant in the upcoming war. Petra's primary motivation is to ensure the safety and survival of Brigid, and being on the side of the victor is what would allow Brigid to become independent.
But what that means in practice is that on non-CF routes, she ought to betray Edelgard once Byleth reaches Enbarr, because at that point it's likely that Edelgard is going to lose, and if Petra dies too* then she will be unable to ensure Brigid's independence - she could bargain with Byleth/the other lords to join their side in return for ensuring Brigid's independence. Unlike every other student in the Black Eagles, she has no pre-existing ties to anything in Adrestia (or Fodlan as a whole) that is directly threatened by the war**, and so ought to be more cutthroat about the side she fights with.
She has a personal code of honour that is a big part of why she fights with the Black Eagles when you don't recruit her - she is loyal to her friends, and considers Edelgard one of them, as well as feeling a (potentially misguided) sense of debt to the Empire. So even when it's logical to betray the Empire (which is whenever you fight her on non-BE routes), she doesn't. It's a case where Petra 'should' betray the Empire, but doesn't take the action that's actually best for Brigid.
Interestingly, this line of thought makes her decision at the route split more difficult - Edelgard's lie about being the Flame Emperor might cast doubt on any promise Edelgard makes to give Brigid its independence, but it's not as if Petra has any attachment to the church or the old Fodlan system, so Petra probably should have chosen Edelgard even if Byleth chooses Rhea.
*Technically speaking, you could do LTC/gimmicky clears to avoid killing her on VW/AM, but I'm gonna assume she dies whenever she opposes Byleth.
**Brigid itself gets threatened in her paralogue, but the events of the paralogue only occur with the presence of Byleth in the same faction, and Byleth overrides almost every competing motivation thanks to protagonist powers, so the paralogue only gives Petra reason to double down on whichever side Byleth is fighting for. It doesn't add anything to an explanation of her motives.
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Dark Knight isn't a bad class in general, but doubling down on Reason just isn't optimal for Byleth. Obviously if you really want to field magic Byleth then by all means go for it, but Dark Knight doesn't solve any issues Byleth otherwise has with magic.
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9 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:
sorry but what's the point of telling me this. This does not support ur argument EO > MS. I never said you should train in reason if you do EO Byleth.
As I said it is only 4.5 more. That doesn't make or break a unit's performance unless there is some benchmark.
I don't think these extra stats make much of a difference. Personally, I think +4 dmg makes more of a difference. Yes Ragnorock with tome faire killing while levin+ not is situational, but I find these +4.5 extra stats mattering to be more situational.
Wrong. You are forgetting the fact that most enemies have much less res than def. Idk exact numbers, but most units have at least 7 more def than res.
sorry my argument might have been unclear. To show that EO is better than MS I have to show that, on average, EO performs better when put in the same situation as MS. Theoretically, both function as hybrid classes with magic capability. So the argument I am making works as follows
1. EO's best weapon is swords, despite it being a class that can use magic (normally magic provides a useful niche for hybrids). MS requires swords and reason to certify, and is built for units to use both. Any other weapon type is equivalent in both builds. I now must show that EO with swords alone outclasses MS with swords and reason.
2. EO does better with swords than MS with swords because of its higher stat spread on average.
3. MS with reason is not as good as MS with swords. In part, this is because Ragnarok, the only Reason spell better than a Levin Sword+, has three uses on MS and will only get three range with either S-rank or one of two in-game items equipped. Another reason is that Sublime Creator Sword on EO has better damage output than Tomefaire Ragnarok. Even assuming enemy res is 7 less than their defence, or even lower, SCS has a 2-range combat art, 20 uses per battle (so an actual enemy phase), better crit, hit, and lower weight (so higher AS/avo). SCS is one of the best tools Byleth has at their disposal, and it exceeds Ragnarok in all but the most situational of circumstances (say, against Armors/Great Knights, where a Levin Sword+ can be used to the same effect, or if you need the biggest possible chip damage Byleth can deal, where Ragnarok is still competing with SCS).
I could go further and talk about the sheer number of good swords that Ragnarok is also competing with (Wo Dao, Cursed Ashiya, Blutgang, Thunderbrand, Mercurius, Sword of Zoltan+) that could only even lose to Ragnarok (in niche situations) a maximum of three times per battle anyway (the number of uses Ragnarok has). But you get the point.
4. Put 2 and 3 together, and EO with swords alone is better than MS with swords or reason. Like you say, the difference is only slight, but it's there.
The Tomefaire damage is equivalent to the Swordfaire damage on a Levin Sword+, so Reason capability on Byleth in any class adds very little to them. But like you say, neither is a great class for Byleth in the first place.
9 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:Wyvern/Falcon best class for Byleth because
1. They are just straight up a better class than most end game class. Ex. Pali, SM, assassin
2. Best build for dodge tanking. 30(alert stance+) + 10(class skill) + 30(Spd) + 15/10(lance/axe prowess)
3. This isn't about endgame but only mentioning it because the natural class path, but Byleth being flier is extremely useful for ch 13. Especially for Azura Moon since it is the only route where you aren't given a flier.
I think Falcon Knight is probably the best endgame class for F!Byleth, and it's the easiest way (minus NG+) to get an amazing dodge tank. Obviously dodge tanking doesn't suit everyone, but it's still a great build, for all the reasons that fliers are great. I think it's better than WL because Byleth needs more help growing speed/res than strength/def (and the speed growth is likely to give Byleth slightly more avoid than WL), and FK is slightly easier to build into because of the sword requirement.
But as I've said earlier on this thread, I think the DLC makes War Master better than Wyvern Lord for M!Byleth - I won't state my reasons again but you can look at them earlier on this thread. Ch. 13 is definitely rough, but one route (AM) where you don't get given a flier is balanced out by not having a traditional Ch.13 in CF. Flying is easily the best movement type (and 8 move is better than 6), but I think War Master exceeds WL in combat potential.
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7 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:
I can understand to an extent, and she does need to be pushed to it. However, Chapter 13 of CF has her actually make a resolved statement about wanting to see Edelgard's path through:
Yeah Marianne is definitely partial to Edelgard, but doesn't feel like enough of a motivation (minus Byleth's recruitment) to make her join the war in the first place.
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I mean if you're talking about literally reaching the endgame and being forced to reclass into either EO or MS (assuming all other things are equal) I'd still have to choose EO, but only just.
Ragnarok (and Aura but Faith is neutral to this argument) is the only spell Byleth has that is naturally stronger than a Levin Sword+, and if they equip it they are just as likely to get doubled on EP. It also only has 3 uses, and 2 range until you get to S-Rank Reason as opposed to a 3-range Levin Sword+.
So the toss-up is between 3 uses of Tomefaire Ragnarok, and a higher spread of stats in EO. Levin Sword+ with Swordfaire is only 1 Mt short of Ragnarok without Tomefaire. Wrath Strike with a Levin Sword+ on EO does the same damage as Tomefaire Ragnarok on MS from one space.
In other words, Reason really adds next to nothing to an EO build.
So if you plan on building EO for Endgame, you may as well focus on Swords anyway, which streamlines your build compared to growing Reason and spending more time on Authority than you otherwise would (remember Seteth is probably the only person in Part II who can tutor you in authority anyway). But my scenario is based on just choosing between the two, forgetting about any opportunity cost with building either. So putting the build cost aside, the Sublime Creator Sword on EO is better than Tomefaire Ragnarok on MS in pretty much every conceivable respect (except requiring Umbral Steel and the potential for hitting from 3 spaces), especially since Byleth's magic is normally lagging by at least 7 points compared to their strength (assuming strength and magic grow exactly the same amount, there's 7 points difference in Byleth's original bases).
And obviously EO makes slightly better use of swords/being a frontliner in general compared to MS because of those slightly better stats.
It also isn't likely that Levin Sword+ or Ragnarok can ORKO any non-armour enemy, even with the respective faires equipped. However, unless you're really committed to Tomefaire Ragnarok or love the idea of a hybrid Byleth, then EO edges it because of those stat bumps (not by a huge amount though) over MS.
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3 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:
Yes, I consider all the crests of the 10 elites in the dark magic as well as all the relics as they were all created by the Agarthans. All crest beasts are is a corrupted form of the Nabateans own transformations after all. The only crests that aren't dark magic are crests of the Saints. That being the crests of the Seiros, Cichol, Cethleann, Indech and Macuil. They were all either willingly passed to humans or the humans with those crests are their direct descendants, not sure which. There are also sacred weapons like the sword and shield of Seiros which are in a completely different category from the relics. Who are unholy in nature.
Yeah so I agree that there's a distinction between sacred weapons and relics, but I don't think that can be extended to a difference between stolen crests and inherited ones - at least, not one that the game actually makes. I imagine the process of acquiring a crest (excluding Edelgard/Lysithea) is standardly blood transfusion whether you're killing a Nabatean or a Nabatean is giving it to you - and after the first generation, there's no difference anyway. In the case of Edelgard/Lysithea, I imagine something else was involved (probably magic) to give them their second crest, but I don't think it has anything to do with the specific nature of either the Crest of Flames or the Crest of Gloucester. I don't think that Crests can inherently be dark or evil (it's like calling certain blood types dark or evil) or that the Crest of Flames specifically allowed Edelgard's transformation. I do believe that the Crest of Flames is stronger than other crests, by virtue of being Sothis' crest, but I don't see any evidence that it should differ from other crests specifically in being able to turn its bearer into a Crest Beast.
4 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:There is also another question I have been thinking about, would it be possible for any Agarthan to betray their faction? I would assume that most would be brainwashed into unquestioned loyalty by Thales and more than willing to die for their cause. Yet again Kronya didn't seem to be a willing sacrifice. Even if they are evil people, maybe not everyone would be up for being treated as completely disposable.
There we have another possibility would response to crest beasts, while I don't think it is the case, given some of the earlier examples in the game. Is it possible that some of them might have previously been Agarthans? They have certainly shown themselves to be willing to sacrifice their own in the past for various dark rituals.
We don't know much about Agarthan society, so it's pretty difficult to judge. If they all live in Shambala all the time, they probably know little of the upper world until they reach a high enough rank and believe in their cause enough not to be swayed by what they see. If they recruit, then it's a different story. I'm just assuming they function like a cult (hereditary membership, ranks, lifetime commitment etc.) but they may not do. If Hubert's paralogue is something to go by, then they don't at least want to sacrifice their scientists/mages. But what even is it to be a rank-and-file Agarthan? Do they constantly maintain a standing army that just sat around before 3H kicked off? How many people can Shambala support without it beggaring belief that they weren't noticed? We actually know fairly little about what it would mean for an Agarthan to betray their people, or what it means to be Agarthan in the first place. Interesting question, but I don't think you could get a definitive answer for it.
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The issue with magic Byleth generally (outside of Normal) is that he doesn't have high enough speed or magic to kill most enemies. Even with a Tomefaire. I mean, that goes for most of your mages in the late-game anyway, but it's egregious because Byleth is so capable in other builds. EO is available far earlier than MS, with a stat spread that every character in Part I (and for a decent amount of Part II) would envy. On top of that, Byleth's Reason list is crappy enough that they ideally want Tomefaire and Black Magic Uses x2 to be a decent spellcaster. Like you say, both MS and EO aren't great endgame builds for Byleth, but Byleth has far more reason to spend time in EO than in MS because it comes so much earlier with its high bases.
I think MS gets a lot of hate because of that -10% Spd growth (which is a ridiculous way of nerfing the class anyway) and because it's the worst Master class in most respects - I don't think it's quite as terrible as people make it out to be, but it feels like such wasted potential because the game is begging for a combat-oriented hybrid class (and even the DLC doesn't really fix that).
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56 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:
I would say that the crest of flames is of the dark nature, because Nemesis stole that power. Byleth inherited this power directly from Sothis, but Edelgard was given it through dark experimentation. It is an unnatural crest with its powers arising from the murder of a deity.
Hmm I take your point, but by that logic the rest of the descendants of the Ten Elites also have 'dark' crests - it just seems like a pretty arbitrary distinction that doesn't have a basis in the game itself. Take for example the Ten Elites in VW endgame - their relic weapons are dark presumably because they are created with dark magic (hence the Greek letters after their name) but their crests are exactly the same in nature as the crests of your party. I'm actually thinking about making a different thread on dark magic in 3H so watch this space anyway.
It should also be said that not many of the students would actually oppose Edelgard on the basis of her views about nobility. The most pro-nobility characters (Ferdinand, Lorenz, Constance) all believe that nobles are nobles only in as far as they are the most competent and well-equipped members of society. In other words, they already believe they are in a system close to meritocracy. Obviously the old system being near a meritocracy isn't actually true, but Ferdinand and Lorenz both truly believe that they have privilege because they are (or will be) exceptional enough people to have earnt it, and they put in effort in order to justify that position. And Constance's support with Edelgard explicitly states that she is happy and willing to rise to the equivalent position in Edelgard's government to what the Nuvelles once had through her own merit in magic research, rather than her bloodline. The rest of the students have little attachment to the nobility system - if anything the character I see as being most opposed to Edelgard's position on nobility (apart from Dimitri) is Hilda, who'd probably hate the idea of losing the life of luxury nobility affords her.
If Ferdinand were to betray Edelgard, it would probably be because of her imprisoning his father, which he could interpret as snubbing the work and advice that House Aegir has provided for generations. In that scenario, he could believe that the only way to get through to Edelgard and make her see why her road is mistaken would be to oppose her on the battlefield - his patriotism would still be motivating him in this scenario, but he would be taking extremely drastic measures to do what he thinks is right for the country and the continent. Normally (without Byleth's interference) his loyalty to the Empire wins out despite these reservations about Edelgard's path in non-CF routes, and that's why you always fight him.
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18 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:
I think that Edelgard is able to transform as her transformation is different in nature from the rest. It is implied that she actually transforms as a response to unlocking the true power of the crest of flames I think that is a sign of the true dark nature of that crest.
In the case of Macuil, is crest was known as being cursed, so it wouldn't surprise me if different rules apply to him than normal. This is not a normal transformation
If you remember I also stated a second option, I said that they would wither be volunteers or created by the Agarthans independently of the main Imperial army and lended to them to help in the war effort. Little evidence we do have as you say seem to suggest Myson is one of the primary people behind the creation of crest beasts. He also happens to be present during the siege of the Imperial Palace in Azure Moon. Suggesting he might also have had a hand in hers transformation as well, he probably devised the method. Obviously the Agarthans wouldn't bother to just use volunteers. Yet, I don't think it is entirely impossible, but some people would volunteer for this if the Imperial army practised this. Some people are willing to die for the nation and for a cause they believe in, why wouldn't this extend to transforming into a monster as well?
That seems strange - why would the goddess' blood be innately darker than the blood of any other Nabatean? If you're referring to her ability to act twice etc., that's a product of her Twin Crests skill - the fact that she has two crests explains why her monster transformation is that powerful, but it doesn't explain how she was able to transform in the first place.
If you mean Macuil, then I can't think of a single instance where anyone claims the Crest of Macuil is cursed. If anything, we know less about the Crest of Macuil than most Crests. If you mean Maurice, then you've got the order of events wrong. Maurice's Crest is only considered cursed after Maurice transforms into the Wandering Beast and starts killing people - if we are to believe the legend (which is currently the best explanation we have) then the reason he transformed was overuse of his Crest and his Hero's Relic. His crest is no more cursed than anyone else's, it's a myth that got aggrandised over several centuries.
Completely artificial Demonic Beasts (i.e. without a human base) seem the least likely, because we have no positive evidence that these exist at all. Demonic Beasts are different in nature from the giant animals etc that you fight in auxiliary battles, and Part I provides us plenty of evidence that these Demonic Beasts are formed from humans. It would be far more efficient for the Agarthans to not bother with human experimentation - the fact that they do suggests a human core is a necessary part of the beast creation process. Now we definitely don't know enough about Myson to assume that he is the mad scientist behind Demonic Beasts, but it really doesn't fit with the Agarthan profile to ask for consent and look for willing sacrifices for their experiments. Ask Kronya, or Remire Village. It's theoretically possible that there were volunteers, but it's just unlikely because we see the Agarthans skip the consent-asking process multiple times, it's unlikely that anyone but the most diehard of martyrs would volunteer for this, and even those diehard martyrs would have to know that the Agarthans are behind this and the process requires humans - it's hardly as if they're advertising for recruits. So yeah, I can't claim it's impossible. But I think the reasonable position is to assume that people getting turned into Demonic Beasts are either unaware, unwilling or both.
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4 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:
I'm glad you put in that asterisked comment because that was going to be my response. Both in the battle itself and thereafter, her use of them isn't actually noted. If the students had used that as a reason to fight, I'd be happier with the sequence. But IIRC the beasts don't even appear in the cutscene; you only see them once the battle is joined.
As you note the game is pretty inconsistent on how seriously we're supposed to take the demonic beasts, and there are some key unanswered questions. Are they all made from people? If so, are the people willing or not? What about the wild ones? What about the ones Gloucester uses? Can people survive the transformation? (Miklan doesn't and it's implied the Faerghus soldiers in Field of Revenge don't expect to, but Edelgard does in Azure Moon.)
Without these answers, I'll admit I'm fairly numb to them myself (and the fact that characters I consider to be quite moral such as Dorothea are seen fighting alongside them adds to this). Weapons are weapons, and nothing in war is pretty. Even the worst interpretation of demonic beasts makes them less terrible as weapons than many other things humans have developed (bombs which kill civilians in large numbers, for one). If the game wanted to sell me on them as particularly vile, there should have been some scenes of unwilling sacrifices being turned into them during the war phase. Without that, we can only guess, and I suspect the guesses will line up with people's opinions on who they think is responsible and their opinions on those characters.
Yeah these are really good questions about the beasts - as well as Gloucester with giant wolves, Almyra is somehow able to control giant birds (in Edelgard's paralogue and Hilda's IIRC). Maurice doesn't transform back to human form, but the other humans who went beast mode do (Miklan, Edelgard, the students in Ch. 9). How come crest-bearing Edelgard managed to turn at all?
How come Macuil can remain transformed in the middle of nowhere for a thousand years, but short transformation exhausts Rhea and transformation is impossible for Seteth and Flayn? The BESF never fight directly alongside monsters, even when it would make sense to, and Chapter 11 should see you fight alongside Rhea's Golems against Edelgard, because they're supposed to be a security system for the Holy Tomb. What exactly are Rhea's Golems anyway, and how do they operate? They're presumably some kind of automaton, but unlike how Titanus are explained, it's never said what or who is supplying them energy, or how they were built a thousand years before Cornelia managed something similar.
1 hour ago, Slyfox said:Some of what I said above applies here, but I'll elaborate on some points, such as the wild ones. To me, all that I've seen so far shows demonic beasts (and white beasts) that have been transformed from people as having some sort of muscle fiber-like skin. The wild ones mostly appear to be animals or monsters that have somehow been magically enlarged, and their skin is much like any normal creature would have. That's a key difference that I've seen.
What kind of skin did the demonic beasts belonging to Count Gloucester use? That would be very interesting to know.
Demonic Beasts have masks, which get broken off when you barrier break them, but normal beasts do not. I take the masks as being symbolic of some kind of forced magical control, which gets destabilised at the moment of barrier break, but recovers after (there's normally a bit of the mask left). It explains why their barriers start at complete as opposed to normal giant wolves and birds, but giant beasts also have full barriers, and barrier breaks work the same way regardless of whether a beast is under TWSITD control so I may just be over-reading into game mechanics.
It's also true that demonic beasts (those under the effect of the Agarthans' artificial Crest Stones) seem to be the only ones that use magic attacks (fire breath, wind strikes etc), which makes sense if they've been refined using magic. Indech, Macuil and Rhea can do it too, but I take that as being Nabatean so more in control of their powers. Maurice, Miklan, Dedue and naturally appearing beasts use physical attacks, and what I guess is naturally produced poison.
EDIT: I forgot about Aelfric, whose Umbral Beast form is capable of magic and physical attacks. If anything it seems to confirm that the type of item used to transform inevitably affects the type of beast produced.
4 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:But the game never fully explains how exactly these demonic beasts were created , so this is just speculation. But I think we shouldn't jump to conclusions that they were all kidnapped civilians or something. A lot of people in the universe jumped to conclusions when it came to Edelgard and a lot of those conclusions have turned out to be wrong. Once you examine the situation further.
If we're counting the DLC, then Yuri's paralogue demonstrates unwilling soldiers/mercenaries turning into Demonic Beasts. Myson then calls this "experiment" successful. We can't declare that no one ever volunteered for this, but it really doesn't seem likely.
It's still true that we aren't made to judge Demonic Beasts in Part II nearly as forcefully as in Ch. 9, maybe because they are already well-established in-universe by Part II even though the player doesn't see their usage in the time skip. It probably ought to be a warning sign for the player though, even if the game makes little comment.
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On 5/27/2020 at 3:29 PM, zuibangde said:
You're simplifying defection way too much. Nobody defects simply because another country's interests align with theirs. If that happens, the world would be in a constant state of chaos. Millions of Americans were against the war in the Middle East but they didn't just decide to pack and leave the US or defect to another country. Soldiers were sent to war against their wishes and died doing so. The point is, the game's portrayal of 'defection' is utterly ridiculous and unrealistic. I don't see any of them defecting. At most, probably not volunteer to fight in the war or maybe attempt to start a civil war/uprising within their own country during a period of chaos.
I think one of the big problems with recruitment in 3H is that joining a different class at school during peacetime and fighting your homeland during wartime are nowhere near equivalent, and yet the former inevitably results in the latter. But 3H isn't like the world of today, where borders and international relations are far more rigorously defined, and the average citizen isn't school friends with the heirs to the three nations that span their continent.
A flip side to the nobility system in Fodlan is that, with the potential exception of Faerghus (most of its key noble houses internalise the feudal system of knighthood and fealty), house loyalty is at least a competing motivator to national loyalty, and houses are themselves riven with internal conflicts and multiple branches. The current generation of students begins to buck that selfish trend (like Lorenz' holistic view of what benefits Leicester compared to his father's concern only for House Gloucester) but in the world of Fodlan, defection could and did happen all the time, for exactly reasons like perceived benefit. For example, the House Daphnel split forming House Galatea and the House Hrym revolt. If monastery quests are anything to go by, in both Part I and II you spend time taking down deserters from your army that start ransacking their local towns (not quite defecting to another country, but it demonstrates looser control than more regimented modern armies, and even then recent wars have still had lots of deserters).
Even for commoners, the Fodlan war holds the potential to shake up the established order completely, and it's in everyone's interest to be on the right side of that. Obviously, plenty of characters are still motivated by patriotism, ideological concerns etc. to fight for their home, but I don't think defection is out of the question for all of them.
Mercedes is a good example - she already has suspicions (Monastery dialogue) before Ch. 6 that Jeritza is Emile, and her paralogue proves she will do things otherwise out of character in order to talk to him. Guilt over leaving him behind (that she actually expresses in several different supports, independent of route) is, in her case I think, a strong enough motivator for betraying Faerghus. And her love of the church is strained by, but not incompatible with, joining Edelgard because the church can and does end up existing and providing alms after Rhea's death. Faerghus gave her a home after she fled the Empire, so it's not as if she feels no patriotism, but joining the Empire in the war is also a pretty reasonable step in her emotional journey.
A canon example is Acheron, famous for being a "weathervane" and advantageously positioned between the Empire and the Alliance, who shows up on Claude's behest, but leaves Judith to die in CF the moment he thinks that the tide of the battle has shifted (he also dies trying to pincer you on the Myrddin bridge in other routes, but at least there he's fighting on the same side for the entire duration of that battle, and the betrayal technically happens offscreen). Ironically it is his retreat that shifts the battle in Edelgard's favour, but his betrayal is one of sheer opportunity, and while most playable characters have more backbone than Acheron, it isn't unbelievable to think that they too could betray their homeland for more substantial reasons. The fact that Lysithea, Ashe and Lorenz can actually be persuaded to do that (depending on certain conditions) is at least evidence that loyalty to one's homeland/faction isn't an overruling motive for everyone.
I agree that defection isn't fleshed out nearly enough though - some other things the game doesn't really care to talk about include why nothing happens to the families of noble defectors, why Alois is left to wander Fodlan for 5 years without being punished by a vindictive Rhea in CF, and how all defectors are brought into the fold immediately and without question, despite some of them having only turned coat when they show up in Part II. The very act of deserting is really strange for some - Linhardt just rocks up in non-CF Part II, despite having lived at home in the Empire for the previous five years just knocking about.
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22 minutes ago, RainbowMoon said:
I'm on Hard/Casual. I'm just still pretty bad at this lol
Lol sorry didn't mean to make a dig - IMO this is one of the tougher Part I paralogues, especially if you're going in blind, and it works a little differently to missions before that point so it completely makes sense to stumble on it.
25 minutes ago, RainbowMoon said:I hadn't considered sendng everybody north, actually. But if killing the merchant gets rid of one wave of reinforcements then I'll do that first to make life easier for Ingrid. Byleth and Edelgard can deal with Devil Axe guy no problem and grab the staff. Then it's just getting Ingrid past the last ambush safely. I'll do everything I can to keep them focused on the others but I swear Dorothea and Ingrid are like catnip to them. I'll save all my divine pulses for that part though in case anything goes screwy.
The merchant summons one or two myrmidons every turn (which stop when you kill him), and there are also some other reinforcements that come from the west (which can't be stopped unless you clear the map before the turn they arrive). Going north first puts you in a better position to fight those guys, and it means you go around the east clearing which is the trickiest reinforcements-wise. If you're happy to take the map nice and slow, then you can basically rout the final ambush anyway - if Ingrid is a flier the she can utilise terrain to do hit-and-run attacks, and the ambush units at the end aren't archers IIRC, so if you trigger them at the beginning of a player phase (position the rest of your army in advance after the lava terrain on the top path but before the destination point, then send Ingrid out first) they can be wiped out that turn without risk to any flier/mage.
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Yeah this is a hell of a paralogue to start with in 3H haha. Good on you for not rage-quitting.
The healing staff has good use for at least the next few chapters, though you can survive without it. Both Dorothea and Linhardt will have Physic soon if not already, and Healing Staff really helps make the most of the Physic uses you get, although it tails off once you get a unit certified as Bishop. It's never bad though, for example if you have a Gremory endgame as your primary healer and you're not too worried about their offense then Healing Staff is a good thing to put on them. There is at least one other available Healing Staff in Part I - I can't remember where exactly though.
I can't remember if you said you were playing on Maddening, but if you are (and even on Hard/Classic if you're underleveled) there aren't that many occasions early game when splitting your forces is a safe thing to do. And while it is possible to outrun the merchant's reinforcements, if you end up triggering at least one ambush (which you have to near the end of the map) then they tend to catch up. It's pretty hard to get both chests and avoid getting bogged down.
A big thing this paralogue doesn't tell you is that reinforcements trigger in the clearing directly east of your starting point only when Ingrid (or maybe Dorothea too) goes into the clearing. So a safe strategy is for everyone to go north (after grabbing the nearby chest and killing the nearby fighters), kill the myrmidons on the way to killing the merchant, get the healing staff and then take the top path with the archers - those reinforcements won't then trigger at all. The Devil Axe guy and the other boss head towards you once you get to that path, so it isn't too hard to bait-kill them if you want the weapon. After that there's that last ambush, but you should be able to deal with that.
Anyway hope all that helps!
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Battalion vantage is a great skill, but I think you'd just equip a high-health battalion (like any of the lords' unique ones, or most B-rank and above battalions) so that you have 40 Battalion HP worth of leeway, rather than adding in Defensive Tactics. I honestly prefer the battalion skills to their straight counterparts, because although it can be a little finicky to lower a battalion's health, it's much safer to do that over the course of a few battles than to allow your Byleth/whoever to take hits in order to be useful. That's just a personal preference though, and low-HP builds, while risky, can be very rewarding.
And yeah the above advice about Falcon Knights is really solid - it's definitely the best choice for F!Byleth (Byleth needs speed growth boosts rather than strength boosts that WL gives because her strength is normally fine) and potentially the best class for Byleth overall. You should be able to at least S-rank swords by endgame without too much difficulty given the progression that @SumG mentioned, and although I'm slightly less optimistic about getting Swordfaire, the skill set they set out would be great to end up in.
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I actually really agree with both your complaints, but I also know I'm biased because I can't stand using low-HP builds. I do, however, recognise that they can be very effective, and if you do want to use defiant skills to bolster those builds (say, on a Vengeance Falcon Knight Bernadetta, or a Vantage + Wrath build) then Defiant Avo/crit are the ones to get. Still like you say it's just an ancillary point - the big reason to get to master class fliers early is because they are great classes with great growths and 8 uninhibited movement.
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4 hours ago, Marlowe said:
Yeah. Perhaps a Brave Lance, to see if she can get quads? It might be too heavy for her to double regularly, though. I'm not immensely worried, because she's usually going after mages and other soft targets.
Yeah my personal difficulty with that is Brave Lance Ingrid starts getting quadded by Grapplers and doubled by other borderline units on her EP. I guess that's more a question of unit placement/ my lack of confidence in her enemy phase though. It's annoying because Frozen Lance doesn't often OHKO on her, and she'd normally rather double units anyway - I'm having a similar issue with her Hexblade at the moment.
4 hours ago, Marlowe said:That was the plan, this having been what I did last time (Killer Knuckles and Bombard, if I remember right). I just hope DK doesn't move in Maddening...
Yeah I haven't played that quest in a while but my feeling is that he doesn't.
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I had personally assumed Constance would default to the Empire, because Edelgard takes down most of the Seven Houses on her way to the throne. And Constance reveals in her B-support with Byleth that House Nuvelle were ultimately destroyed because they were loyal to Ionius (and thus Edelgard) instead of the Insurrection. I didn't know about the dialogue quoted above (I've only played with Constance on CF so far), and it certainly isn't unreasonable for her not to side with Edelgard. But given that it seems at the outset of the war like Edelgard's is the more powerful side, it would make sense for Constance to choose Edelgard as the shortest route to re-establishing House Nuvelle.
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It does make a bit more sense than Alois willingly killing his mentor's son because of a poorly motivated vendetta, even if he is under the misconception that Byleth is fighting for exactly the same cause as Jeralt's killers.
On a separate note, it feels like IS missed a trick by not showing us Alois' family - at least then his S-rank with M!Byleth wouldn't feel like a cop-out from IS.
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Another case that smacked of poor writing to me was Alois. If Byleth doesn't recruit him, then when you fight him in CF he accuses Byleth of betraying Jeralt's legacy.
But if Byleth recruits him, he says in Chapter 12's staging area that Byleth is Jeralt's legacy. And post-timeskip Alois claims to have spent five years searching for Byleth, even leaving the Knights to do it. It's a weird amount of loyalty and a hell of a perspective shift given that he only joins you officially in the month of the route-split, and it makes me think he either should be Church-locked in CF (like how Flayn leaves), or automatically join Byleth without any recruitment requirement (like Jeritza does in CF).
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I can personally vouch for this - am running a brawl-focused M!Byleth on my current Maddening CF run, and he's been doing amazing. He has 78 dodge as a WM when he equips fists (and I think 29 speed, Lv. 32 currently just before Ch. 15 story mission for context). Since he mastered War Monk (I glued a Knowledge Gem to him so he did that during Chapter 10 I think) he's only just started taking some hits again, and that's because units get a massive stat spike (and master classes) starting from the Derdriu mission on CF. For comparison, fliers that don't take advantage of Alert Stance+ typically have avoid in the 70s during endgame.
So yeah, the DLC has made fists Byleth insanely good, to the point where I'd say Grappler/War Master beats Wyvern Lord for being the best class M!Byleth can use. Grappler has better speed/movement and Fierce Iron Fist, but War Master has better crit, bulk and gets you Quick Riposte, which is probably the best mastery skill in the game. I'm still undecided on which class I'm gonna use for endgame, but if you go for M!Byleth then I'd highly recommend this build.
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Glad to hear things are going well!
I have the same problem with any Ingrid build - she's often lacking in killing power, and I've yet to find a build that fixes that.
Paladin Sylvain is definitely great in its own right, and giving him shields and a decent battalion brings his Prt pretty close to a GK anyway.
WM is a good idea for Caspar - if things get really dicey in his paralogue then you can stick Killer Knuckles/Killer Axe on him and Divine Pulse-scum for a critical (and use gambits to chip if that won't do the job)
Who should have betrayed their faction?
in Fire Emblem: Three Houses
Posted
The bolded part is unfair - it's true Claude wasn't expecting her to lay down her life for the cause, but the only reason that she did was because she wanted to. Claude never asked her (or any named character) to die for his cause at all in CF, and is more shocked than anything that she goes above and beyond in this way, because she didn't need to and things still would have panned out.
In general, non-CF routes don't confirm choice in exactly the same way as Edelgard does, but they do affirm the choices of other characters. All of the house students (and whoever you recruit non-canonically bar Ashe and Lorenz) return to Garreg Mach in Part II to honour their promise with Byleth, and by that point the war has been going on for five years. The decision to honour that promise is laden with extra meaning after Byleth disappears, and on non-CF routes every non-lord character primarily chooses to stay alongside teacher no. 1 Byleth, as well as their lord of choice, after Ch. 13. Over the course of their Part II each lord subsequently confirms the resolve of their canon allies before at least one significant chapter (Enbarr is a good example on all routes). I don't think any of the other lords are significantly worse or better than Edelgard in this respect, it just happens in different ways.
It's a symptom of how unexpected it is that Byleth chooses to protect Edelgard that Edelgard keeps checking Byleth's resolve - even whilst you're on her Part II route, there are lots of things that require resolve above and beyond what Edelgard would expect from an ally (continuing to work with TWSITD in Part II, demonic beasts, Arianrhod). She tells Byleth because she trusts them, but is nonetheless worried about their opinion because she knows how bad it appears. It isn't simply that she cares about their choices (she does), but she also wants to remain in good standing in Byleth's eyes because she acknowledges them - Claude and Seteth at least don't normally feel guilty for the actions they take (and have different personal issues anyway) so they don't ask for verbal approval as much. I'm also not sure why you think Byleth is unresolved in non-CF routes - they're pretty firm about retrieving Rhea, which is one of their main goals on non-CF routes.
To the issue at hand, the only character I can think of who is forced to fight in the war by a lord is Jeritza, who has no interest in the war whatsoever and only fights because his previous contract with Edelgard entails it. The other characters all fight for their own stakes - some are happier about it than others, but none of them appear to be fighting solely or primarily because of pressure from their lord of choice.