FionordeQuester
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Posts posted by FionordeQuester
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7 hours ago, Armagon said:
Holy fuck, this awakened an ancient memory of mine.
Lol, yeah, that was an old movie, eh? Was wondering if anyone'd remember that!
7 hours ago, Armagon said:Anyways, Majora's Mask 3D isn't a bad remake. As someone who has Majora's Mask as his favorite Zelda game, i actually prefer the 3DS remake. Yeah the original is good but the remake is just much more convenient to play. Between being able to save at any time (you can savescum the fucking Goron Race, thank God), improved notebook, the ability to actually see in a few places (Woodfall Temple in the original had places where you just flatout couldn't see), etc, it just makes for a smoother experience. The only legitimate downside is the Zora nerf but like that's it.
That about sums up my thoughts on the remake, yeah 🙂 .
7 hours ago, Armagon said:And yeah, i have seen a certain video about the subject. Didn't exactly find it convincing tbh.
Indeed.
2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:Okay. I'm just saying that I think it's an area where a number of people would blame the game and have reason to do so.
What reason is that, out of curiosity? I can't think of what it'd be.
2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:I see. I was already aware of the rubber-banding (which I've honestly never been a fan of in any game with a racing mini-game), and I wasn't thinking of the chateau romani as a way to go faster; just simply a way to not have to worry about failing to hit magic jars and run out of magic. The goron race has too many ways to automatically lose: you run out of magic, you lose; you get hit by another goron (even though you're the only goron with spikes), you lose; you go too fast, you lose due to rubber-banding; and I'm sure I'm forgetting about a dozen other ways in which, if the player does something even slightly imperfectly, the player loses.
I see. Well, if you wish, you could beat up Goht, do the Powder Keg exam, start another cycle, then get the Romani Mask. Then, start a cycle after that, SoDT to 6PM, beat up Goht again, drink the Chateau, then do the race. That's an option 🙂 .
2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:I don't think so; it just strikes me as, "Oh, we forgot to put cheese on your burger, so we added extra tomato to compensate"; it's not how it works.
The comparison I'd use is that the way they made their hamburgers was liked by some customers, disliked by others. So, they changed the recipe in a way that'd attract the other customers, while hoping they kept what the old customers like about the old recipe.
2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:Thanks. Yeah; why weren't the transformation masks mapped to the control pad? That could've even been done with the original version: all the control pad is doing is acting as a toggle for the mini-map, and it only needs one of the four sides for doing that. Majora's Mask really makes you feel the weight of only three items being selectable at a time.
One of the reasons I liked 3DS regardless. Having the Ocarina & Pictograph mapped separately was a big help, as was having four slots instead of three!
2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:I wasn't meaning in terms of intent; I was meaning in terms of execution. Having to get a bit of a run-up on small platforms is something even I can see would only increase the tedium, not the actual challenge.
Meh, I liked it well enough. My only problem was that the nerf also affected overworld travel. I would've just removed some lily pads, if I were Grezzo.
2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:I can't speak about parity between Goron Link and Zora Link as I haven't gotten to those parts in the original version yet, but I suspect that, while added parity between them would've sounded neat in their heads, in practice, it's like gutting the Wii U version of Breath of the Wild's touchscreen controls for parity with the Switch version
Pretty much.
2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:That's the thing; I wasn't talking about gamers, I was talking about play-testers. Gamers think, "Let's see how well I can do this" while play-testers think, "Let's see how well the game works"
That's not what Grezzo's design philosophy was—not according to them, at least.
Again, if they're the sorts of gamers that'd complain about lily-hopping being too hard, why were fine with having Goron travel drain their magic? Fine with adding magic drain to Zora travel? And fine with all of the fairly difficult mini-games?
Whatever problems they may have, it doesn't look like "bad gaming skills" are one of them. They understand the importance of having challenge in their games..
2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:Honestly, for me, the fun for the hopping was seeing what kinds of shortcuts I could take with the spin-attack hopping, and that often amounted to overestimating (or failing to pull off the spin attack hopping) and ending up in the water. For me, that's where the challenge was: you can navigate the swamp more quickly, but you have to have the practice and skill to pull it off, and if you can't, then you cost yourself time and may as well have just normal-hopped in less time than the time those tries took.
It's why my approach to ramping up the difficulty would've been different—I'd just decrease the amount of lily pads while keeping Deku movement the same.
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36 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:
I'm cutting the quote just to keep this from getting too long.
That's ok—I've done the same since the start.
QuoteAdding magic pots doesn't strike me as a good way to compensate for it, as it means that, in addition to having to aim for the rings and keep up with the beavers, you're now also having to aim for magic pots that sit at the bottom of the body of water; it seems like it would just make the beaver minigame even harder (and not in a good way) unless you spend 200 rupees and drink a chateau romani so you can ignore the pots.
I thought it made it harder in a good way. It's challenge I can blame myself for failing, rather than the game.
QuoteSpeaking of which, I was thinking of doing something along those lines (namely drinking a chateau romani beforehand) in order to make the goron race easier in the GameCube version that I'm playing. However, if I recall correctly, you pretty much have to win the race on the First Day if you want to make the gilded sword, as making the sword takes up two full days (one for the razor sword and another for the gilded sword), so is trying to get a bottle of chateau romani beforehand actually a good idea or not?
It is not. Apart from what you mentioned, the game rubber-bands you. The faster you go, the faster they go!
QuoteAnyway, adding challenge in one area to compensate for lost challenge elsewhere doesn't necessarily strike me as a good idea, especially since there's a fine line between challenge and tedium (and that's particularly true in a game where you're constantly against the clock).
It's what I'd do, if I were remaking an old classic. Not in all the specific ways they did, but the idea is sound.
QuoteFor a classic example from Ocarina of Time, the Water Temple isn't difficult at all; it's merely tedious because you keep having to equip and de-equip the iron boots by going into the menu. Ocarina of Time 3D made the iron boots an item and added markers for the water level; eliminating the tedium while preserving any "challenge" the dungeon ever had.
Good example—I also like what Project Restoration did with the transformation masks and the Elegy of Emptiness!
QuoteMaking the classic zora swim use magic or nerfing Deku Link's movement doesn't strike me as adding challenge; it strikes me as adding tedium, as it just means slowing the player down in a game where they don't have the time (and in the case of Zora Link, since the swimming is tied to a resource, the player isn't going to practice as much with it as they would've otherwise).
Deku Link's movements were almost certainly nerfed to make the platforms a bigger challenge. Zora Link...well, that was probably also for consistency with Goron Link. Also had the nice added effect (in their minds) of making the Beaver Race a tiny bit harder.
QuoteBut, even if, hypothetically, they did get "adding challenge" in certain areas perfectly (i.e. they added challenge without adding tedium), I wouldn't say that makes up for lost challenge elsewhere since a lot of the challenges are meant to challenge the player in different ways. But this is just me speaking as an aspiring game developer, and not as a critic.
Depends on how it's done, I say.
QuoteI can think of another possible reason: during play-testing, they ran off a ledge or a small platform, or kept having to reposition Deku Link multiple times just to get him close enough to the center of the flower to be able to dive, like a golfer constantly putting a ball that just won't go in the hole. That stuff happened to me a couple of times when playing the original recently, but where I thought, "I need to be gentler with the control stick", the play-testers might've instead thought, "Deku needs some start-up lag to make small and narrow movements easier".
I think if they were that pathetic as gamers, they would've just made the Goron Roll have infinite magic (instead of making Zora Link use more)...or kept the Inverted Song of Time's original potency...or added more time to the Beaver Race...or made pretty much all the mini-games easier (instead of leaving every one of them untouched).
QuoteFor spin-attack-hopping across water being removed; yeah, that was probably for adding
tediumchallenge.Deku Link hopping was incredibly easy in N64, for me. I had to be significantly more careful, in the 3DS.
I actually enjoyed the challenge, honestly. I was just afraid to bring it up till now, because I wasn't sure if it was intentional or not. Now I am 🙂 !
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37 minutes ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:
The best version of Majora's Mask is the 3D remake with the Project Restoration patch.
Thanks for bringing that up—that's gonna tie into that epiphany. So then!
8 hours ago, Jotari said:Hazarding a guess I'd say the Zora might have been changed to match the Goron roll requiring magic. Though I don't think that's a good reason with how both are utilized. That being said if Goron rolling hadn't required magic in the original and had been added in the remake I'd probably be similarly annoyed.
You guessed correctly! Grezzo also added magic pots in the Beaver Race mini-game to compensate for this.
QuoteDeku I got nothing. It's probably an unintended side effect of changing something else.
That's just the thing—it wasn't unintended! They nerfed Deku Link on purpose, play-tested it, and then adjusted the lily pads as needed. I was finally able to confirm this after reading a Reddit post by the Project Restoration guy:
So apart from fixing that shortcut (which didn't need nerfed hopping), it was indeed an attempt at adding challenge to the 3DS version, along with the nerfed Inverted Song of Time, most of the re-worked bosses (sans Oldolwa, since he come 1st), and Fast Zora Swimming burning magic. Presumably, this was to counter-balance some of the other changes they made to streamline the experience. This way (in their minds), they could confidently say that their version is just as hard as the N64 (without being obtuse ).
So for better or worse, every change they made was completely intentional and play-tested. That in mind, I can't see any other reason for nerfed Deku Hopping other than "added challenge".
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14 minutes ago, samthedigital said:
Outside of the gyro movement feels worse for several reasons. A few have already been mentioned, but the lack of notches on the 3DS means that getting a good angle for the goron roll is annoying, and that's one of the smaller grievances I have with the game.
It's interesting you bring that up. Speedrunners have told me that one of the weird quirks in OG Majora's Mask was that there were no cardinal directions mapped, unlike Ocarina of Time. You couldn't go exactly up, down, left, or right—there was always an angle of at least one degree. If you don't believe me, try Z-Targeting while walking up against a wall, or flipping the stick directly down. For most categories, it's only a slight annoyance—it's a deal breaker, however, in heavily glitched ones.
3DS didn't fix the issue with Up, Left, or Right, but they did fix the issue with Down. Backwalking is easier, if nothing else—enough so that heavily glitched categories will use it for set-ups.
Interesting factoid, eh?
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1 minute ago, Jotari said:
I'm pretty sure you missed the postman's training too. I'm not sure when it actually starts, but you at least have to wait until after he's done with his morning rounds. Though maybe you can do it on the early evening too.
Yeah. You can do it in the early evening as well.
Admittedly, this is where my power-gamer tendencies might be biasing me. You've seen for yourself how methodical and organized I like being in my LPs, right 😄 ?
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Just now, Jotari said:
You've just listed like eight things. And all the Kafe and Anju stuff has to be done twice in order to get the two alternate rewards.
Eight, out of how many?
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57 minutes ago, Jotari said:
...but in the way the game is you can easily just dedicate a cycle to a specific side quest and finish it super fast. The timed aspect of it is effectively removed and it becomes a pretty standard video game quest of "go to character, talk to character" only with playing the Ocarina once or twice in between.
Wasn't that sort of how it was, regardless? That most time triggers are easy to fast-forward to? The only exceptions I can think of are...
1) Anju's Midnight Meeting (12 AM to 6 AM on Day) 2) The Hand Wants Toilet Paper (12 AM to 6 AM) 3) Sakon the Thief (1:15 AM on Day 1, cannot easily get by skipping to 6 PM) 4) Kamaro the Dancer (12 AM to 4 AM, cannot easily get by skipping to 6 PM) 5) The Aliens at Romani Ranch (2:30 to 3:00 AM before Romani loses, cannot easily get by skipping to 6 PM) 6) Milk Bar (10 PM to 6 AM, cannot easily get by skipping to 6 PM) 7) The Curiosity Shop (10 PM to 6 AM on Day 3 after foiling Sakon, cannot easily get by skipping to 6 PM) 8) Couple's Mask (5 AM to 6 AM, spat to 12 AM after getting the Sun Mask back)That's like, what, three things I couldn't either spam the Song of Double Time for, or bash out in one clean sweep?
It's what I always did after getting the Chateau de Romani bottle and Powder Keg—start another cycle, use Granny to trigger Midnight Meeting, do the mini-games, then just chain the first five together so I could stop worrying about 'em 😛.
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48 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:
I think especially that the game was too generous in giving the players means to control time which was a very convenient quality of life feature but not really in the spirit of the game.
8 minutes ago, Jotari said:I'm glad you brought that up, because I wanted to, but I felt kind of petty to complain about, so I'm glad to see someone feels similarly about it. Time is an aspect of the game that I feel is kind of lost when you can just forward skip to any event. There's no need to make use of Granny's Story or the shooting gallery etc to make use of your time while waiting for a certain event. You just whip out your Ocarina and go to the exact hour. It's certainly more convenient, but the element of time itself is diminished when there's never any need to wait.
I disagree with this. Yes, you can always skip forward—but the downside is that you cannot get those hours back. Think of "Click", and how much anguish the main character experienced because he kept fast-forwarding through his life. If I truly want to maximize what I want to get done in each cycle, I have to be very careful in using it.
This is especially true in a game where they nerfed the Song of Inverted Time. Do you think this might've been why they weakened its effect?
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14 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:
Doesn't he say that in the original game if you talk to him while wearing those masks? Just yesterday, I walked up to him while wearing the bunny hood and he said something along those lines.
Oh it's in the original game too—sorry I forgot to specify 😛 !
14 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:I see; I honestly think it is the convergence thing, as you're already dealing with the goddess of time manipulating time in Link's favour, and it honestly would fit the themes of the game. I've seen a number of people gush about how Majora's Mask explores themes of bleakness, despair and inevitability. While they are onto something, I think they are missing something key: that Majora's Mask in many ways is about overcoming those things; that it's about defying despair and grimness, and Link ultimately defies the seeming inevitability of the moon destroying Termina. I think it makes sense then to have such a game end on every good that Link did mattering, for that thematic reason.
That's part of why I never liked the "Link is dead" theory. It makes the story end in defeat, if you think of it that way!
14 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:Considering that the lesson Skull Kid (the other kid-from-the-forest in the game and in some ways a tragic foil of Link) learns at the end is that the four giants are still his friends even after they've departed him, one could see Link as learning the same lesson by the end: that Navi is still his friend even though she's gone
(and at least, this way, he doesn't have to hear, "Hey! Listen!" every ten seconds), so whether or not Link ever finds Navi doesn't really matter in that sense, as at least his quest through Termina does give him some sense of closure.Aw... I love that 🙂 .
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4 hours ago, Jotari said:
Well it's either that or credits just be credits and show everything. I never took it to mean there was any converging of timelines.
But what's the in-universe reason for such an occurrence? Over-analytical guys like me are never satisfied with just out-of-universe answers xD!
QuoteLink stole their happiness and manufactured it into masks. Then reset time and didn't help them at all XD Though speaking of the Circus Leader's Mask, I'm really glad they gave it a function in the 3DS remake. It bothered me to no end that aside from trading it for the Fierce Deity Mask along with all the others, it was a functionally useless mask. The only thing it did in the original stop the Gormans from attacking you in the milk delivery quest, which is quest you have to do to get the Circus Leader's Mask.
Indeed! One of my favorite changes as well.
Say, I had an epiphany on why Deku & Zora were changed like they were. It's...well it's not a good reason, but it's a reason, with a semblance of logic behind it. Wanna hear it?
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For what it's worth, the Happy Mask Salesman actually has a brief bit of expanded dialogue in the ending, if you got the following masks...
1) Postman's Hat 2) Kamaro's Mask 3) Great Fairy's Mask 4) Romani's Mask 5) Blast Mask 6) Bunny Hood 7) Circus Leader's Mask 8) Bremen Mask 9) Couple's MaskIt's something along the lines of "My, you sure made a lot of people happy. I can feel it radiating off these masks", or something like that.
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Quote
…No; not really. I mean; maybe, but my point was that it seems like you lose the freneticism of the fight by having Odolwa stop dead in his tracks if you use a deku flower (and where the N64 version had just one flower in the center of the room, the 3DS version has a lot more flowers), so it's not really an upgrade then and instead is more of a trade-off, and I can understand people not liking it because of what's lost.
Well, me personally, I'm never against giving the player more choices. If that's how they want to do it, more power them.
QuoteI don't think so; Nerrel's video, for just one example, shows him spin-attacking as Deku Link while Odolwa's dancing, and it doesn't work. Incidentally, hitting him with the Gilded Sword in the same circumstance didn't work in the Nerrel video either.
I edited my post since then—they all work, so long as you get Oldolwa from behind while he's dancing. Bubble blasts stun, and Deku Spins do damage.
QuoteSpeaking of faces, to me, the Moon seems in pain in the N64 version, which would certainly explain the moon's tear. Why does the 3DS version look angry?
They don't look different to me. Well, other than that N64 is pointy, while 3DS is smooth, but that's a given.
QuoteFor proof of this, it doesn't matter what cycle you help Anju and Kafei in; if you complete the sidequest, their wedding happens after you beat the moon.
It's almost certainly for the best; not just for Termina, but for Link himself. It means that there's a place where time enabled him to be a hero and a friend, rather than take those things from him.
Plus, it also avoids him being guilty of a truly absurd amount of bank fraud.Huh. Good observation!
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1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:
…I inadvertently killed this thread by asking that the conversation about the 3DS remake circle back to discussing the GameCube port; didn't I?
Eh, give it 5 days. If there's still no one else posting, then...yep, you killed it xD!
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1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:
If that really is the case; that he's programmed to become stationary and unable to do anything the moment the player burrows into a deku flower, that does strike me as something that would just kill the pacing and tension in the fight.
It's pretty clever, isn't it? That you can fight him an easy but slow way, or fight him in several faster, but more difficult, ways?
QuoteAnother thing I noticed in my fight against him is that, if you successfully hit Odolwa with a spin attack as Deku Link, it won't hurt him, but it will stun him; opening him up to a hit from something that can hurt him. And yet, in all the footage I've seen of the 3DS version of the fight, hitting him with Deku Link's spin attack does absolutely nothing. If that is indeed the case, then that is an example of an old attack method taken away (and it's a pretty useful one, as Deku Link doesn't take damage from the moths and his spin attack is more likely to connect than a sword strike).
EDIT: Just checked! They all work! Bubble Blasts stun him, and Deku Spins damage him! You gotta make sure he's not shielding though, like I did in my video.
QuoteSide Note: I find it rather hilarious that, despite how irrationally they behave when you meet them, the Deku are the only ones to realize that you're a shapeshifter. Seriously; after you deliver the Deku Princess, one of the Deku Scrubs in the room comments on the fact that they know Link is a shapeshifter.
Huh...interesting.
QuoteTo be fair, in regards to none of them seeming to care about the moon, they're all preoccupied with their own more immediate problems (missing princess + poisoned swamp, curse of winter, missing Zora eggs, etc.) and some of them, such as the monkey in the swamp, do start to notice that some other ominous thing is going on after you save the region from the more immediate problem.
That's probably what it is, really. That, or the moon's just always really massive, and making different faces.
Quote…I thought you already could sell the zora eggs to the Curiosity Shop Owner? The TV Tropes article for the game lists that under the trope "Video Game Cruelty Potential".
Blast. And I'd already traded in the eggs...
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43 minutes ago, Jotari said:
*Visit the Carnival of Time: Imagine, after beating Majora you actually got to go to the Carnival of Time for a day before the end. We see parts of it in the credits and know for a fact that despite the suggestion of the ending, Link actually does stick around to play a song with the Indigo-gos. It'd be great to interact with all the citizens of Termina once the danger has passed for them. But of course, how happy they are depends on whether you helped them or not that cycle. I know if there was something like this, then I would be motivated to do one perfect cycle where I try to help everyone. There could be crowds of people from all over the game with tons of timed events like the Indigo-gos playing their performance at 8pm or Anju and Kafei getting married at noon, but that's only if you saved our star's voice and reunited the lovers. Majora's Mask was more about the side quests and world then it was about the main quest and combat, that is why I think this would be a satisfying, amazing and frankly beautiful way to end the game.
I agree with every single point, and this one really would've been beautiful. It would make "A New Day" more than just a still screen!
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27 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:
There's the thing though: I'm making those prefaces to make it clear that they are not "my" criticisms... [I was] merely bring[ing] up what I have heard, read and seen about it for confirmation/disconfirmation.
Hmm... Alright, I see. I'll leave out the "play it yourself" talk when I disconfirm future points.
QuoteI wan't saying that the cases are the same; I was just trying to explain my... apprehension towards that particular accusation in general. I'm not saying that you were accusing me of it; I was just stating my reasons why I dislike that accusation.
Fair enough.
QuoteIt sounded like you were saying [that] people who criticized the Majora's Mask 3DS remake [were sheep who only regurgitated what others have said].
If that's the case, then I need to apologize. Could you please forgive me? That wasn't my intention, but my words are still my responsibility.
QuoteSide Note: Could you please adjust the name of the thread a bit for added clarity? At a glance, it kind-of sounds like it's saying that my thread ended and this is a sequel to that thread.
Sure. How do you like what I've chosen?
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2 hours ago, Jotari said:
I wouldn't say it's entirely based on videos like Nerrel's. I have never seen that video until this thread, nor do I recall ever watching any videos on the subject, but a lot of the points brought up did resonate with me.
Fair enough.
2 hours ago, Jotari said:Now maybe some of them aren't as bad as they seem, like the ice arrows not actually being changed, or the Zora swimming not actually being that slow, but as I said on that second point earlier, perception matters. And for whatever reason, a lot of the changes did strike a bad cord with a lot of the fan base.
I see.
2 hours ago, Jotari said:I think the casualisation of it is definitely and aspect too...That's something [I haven't been able to] put into words before... [Specific examples I read, but trimmed so the quote block wouldn't be too long]...I understand that people want the more convenient package, but that's not the experience best tailored to me, and I think people with similar values sets me to were put off...Different strokes for different folks basically.
Well said. I have thoughts on that, but I'm not sure if it's good to share 'em here or in the thread I made. What do you think?
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1 hour ago, AnonymousSpeed said:
>X4 had a good localization...
...Well, ok, it had a good script localization🤣! I really should've clarified!
And yeah, I don't know when I'm gonna start X3, but it'll be my pleasure to share my thoughts!
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Vanguard333 expressed a desire to keep his thread about the GCN version: Therefore, I have made this one for if he wishes to continue debating with me. With that said...
1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:Ah, yes; 'the phrasing of the complaints are somewhat uniform, so it must be because a couple reviews told them all to think this way and they're just regurgitating it.' I've always vehemently disliked that accusation because, from what I've seen, people tend to use critiques and reviews in part to help find the words to explain something they felt but couldn't communicate...it ignores the fact that people are capable of independently coming to similar conclusions and even phrasing it similarly because there are only so many ways to say it.
But in this specific case, you haven't played Majora's Mask 3DS. That's why most of your criticisms had to be prefaced with "I heard this..." and "I heard that...", even before I entered your thread. I don't see how you could have formed an opinion on it, unless you're repeating what you've been told by Nerrel and others.
With that in mind...
QuoteMore than a few times now within the last half-a-decade, I've had the unpleasant experience where I voiced my criticisms of something (and they were criticisms I came up with entirely on my own because I hadn't watched any reviews or anything yet) only to immediately be met with an angry accusation that I just regurgitated something some reviewer said.
This case is different from those others. You (presumably) watched the movie you voiced your criticisms on, without any antecedent bias.
But now, in your GCN thread, you have explicitly acknowledged (even before I entered the thread) that you have not played the 3DS version...yet have harshly criticized it. How can I be one of those people you encountered, when this scenario is so different?
QuoteI have to say; being angrily told that your thoughts aren't your own as a way to dismiss those thoughts is not a fun experience in the slightest.
I'm not saying your thoughts aren't your own—I'm saying they're built upon faulty sources. I also think that expressing a strong negative opinion on something tends to invite guys like me, who're willing and able to challenge what you say. Assuming you choose to argue with them (as you chose to do with me), it's helpful to be able to back up your arguments with personal experience.
Does that make sense?
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Before discussion starts up again, I want to be clear, in case Vanguard is nervous at all.
I have absolutely no ill will toward you, or anyone else who prefers the N64. Just the opposite—you appear to be like me: Someone who enjoys analyzing and critiquing all the media he consumes. I do the same in each and every one of my Let's Plays.
However, the 3DS remake of Majora's Mask is one of the most misunderstood remakes I can remember coming across. I see people complaining about problems that (for the most part) literally don't exist. That, and making mountains out of molehills about the few that do. Even the phrasing people use is strangely uniform—as though I'm hearing one person's voice out of multiple different people. I don't know why that is, but I suspect clickbait videos like Nerrel's play a part.
If I seem unusually blunt, it's because I'm trying to encourage you—as strongly as I know how (without being a jerk)—to play the 3DS yourself, or compliment your research with words from someone who both likes the 3DS version and has played it to completion. It's not just a personal plea—it's also advice from one analyst to another.
You understand where I'm coming from, now?
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...Huh. Yeah, it looks like even Song of Time doesn't bring 'em back. So I suppose that glitch'd only be possible with...well, glitches.
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14 minutes ago, Jotari said:
The way I see it the ice arrows are intended to work everywhere, and the result is that they made them work in all of the dungeons, Ikana Canyon and the area right outside the dungeon...All the areas beyond that? Well there was like half a month of development time for the game and there wasn't much need to make any other water freezable... And that's why players think the effect has been paired down to special pools when it didn't actually change...
Hmm...wait. Crud, there was a big one I missed—Great Bay Region after you beat Gyorg (not before). You can do some pretty funky things with this, and Mikau, as it turns out:
So I guess it's a matter of "is it worth it"? I'll admit that platforms everywhere would have been cool...but I can also see why they wouldn't want to take extra time play-testing a feature that would have minimal practical use (since I'll want to conserve my magic).
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1 minute ago, Jotari said:
Honestly from that list it seems more like the area where you rescue Mikau is more of the oversight than the Zora Hall exterior. As they're both basically the same area. Aside from there you've kind of listed pretty much all the deep water areas in the game.
What about the Pirate's Fortress?
1 minute ago, Jotari said:I don't see a sparkling sign saying "Use Ice Arrows here" as the solution, I see making it so it actually does work everywhere as preferable. It's a much more interesting and cooler mechanic if it does work on all water, letting you do things like get the compass in Stone Tower more easily should you be innovative to realize that's something you can do.
I did think of that, as well...but I also think you would've had to test everything to make sure you didn't break something. Like, say...the new fishing mini-game they added in...or stuff like this:
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16 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:
None in terms of its quality, though I have made some in regards to both its development and its discourse.
Sure.
QuoteTo clarify, I was trying to say that Zelda games typically are about taking your time to be observant and figure things out, while Majora's Mask still does that, it also has the player under a constant, yet infinitely-resettable, timer, so it's an interesting tight-rope of expecting the player to be fast and expecting the player to take their time, and I think the way the songs of time work in the N64 version mostly pulls that off that difficult balance, with the only thing I'd want being more intervals available when playing the song of double time. So, I think nerfing the inverted song of time leans too hard in the "race against the clock" aspect. Does that make sense?
It does—however, I imagine there are others who believed the Inverted Song of Time was too strong in N64. So, while I personally dislike the nerf, I don't think either of us can hold it against the 3DS. At most, we can call it a decision we both disagree agree with.
QuoteTo be fair to Nerrel, from the context, I'm pretty sure he meant "shoot anywhere within the bodies of water" as in, "there are no sparkly bits in the water that are the only places you can shoot to create the ice". If the ice arrows don't work on every body of water... okay, but his main complaint was the addition of the sparkly bits telling the player exactly where to shoot (and being the only places that freeze in the bodies of water where it did work)...
That was one of his complaints, sure. But, I came away from his video with the impression that he was also saying they worked everywhere—that N64's Ice Arrows encouraged exploration and experimentation in a way that 3DS does not (which is hogwash).
I apologize to him if that wasn't what he meant. Either way, it's nice to finally have a visual cue for what water I can freeze, and what water I can (especially since I'm under a time limit).
Quote...meaning there's nothing for the player to have to figure out, as well as the fact that the water in the Gyorg boss room doesn't sparkle; meaning players are likely to think that it can't be frozen even though it can, and nothing you've pointed out has disputed either of these.
True—but I also think it would have looked silly to have an entire boss room surrounded in bright yellow sparkles. Maybe that's why they made that exception?
QuoteIf a player got stuck because they couldn't figure out a good path to create with the ice arrows, then why not, for just one possible example, have it that Tatl can guide the player as an option for those who are stuck?
Because then I'm wondering "what's different about the water itself?". At least with their way, I know "sparkly water freezes, normal water does not".
QuoteOkay; I just wanted to know if there was a trick to getting better with dropping the deku nuts on enemies.
Hmm...I think it's just practice? Again though, I don't usually bother—especially since Deku Nuts are lost so easily to the Song of Time.
Was Majora's Mask 3D a Bad Remake? (Continuation of my Debate with Vanguard333)
in General Gaming
Posted · Edited by FionordeQuester
It's still under your control, however.
Goht has a pretty simple quick kill method I could show you if you like, on N64. Perhaps that'll help?
Sure, but you can please as many you can. Me, for example, I loved the original N64 version, and ended up liking this one even more.
What I got out of that was that they were designing it for both groups of people, not just one. Hence their talk about preserving the original challenge, and preserving that sense of time running out.
All I'll say on this point is that the changes they made were logical in my mind. Had they left Deku & Zora Link alone, tested the Twinmold fight more thoroughly, and maybe expanded the amount of places the Ice Arrows worked (if that wasn't too much play-testing), I would've said that every single change was for the better. Better for gameplay, anyway.
You need it to get a picture of a female pirate. Speaking of which...make sure you get a good shot of her face. The N64 requires that for the fisherman to accept the photo. The 3DS allows you to take it however you want.
Indeed.
Wouldn't know—never played past Twilight Princess.
...Hmm. You're right—I'm using quotation marks incorrectly. I'd used them to summarize an idea, rather than as direct quotes, but that's not correct. Sorry for the confusion & frustration.
Still, what is a bad gamer, but someone who blames the game rather than themselves? Doesn't your presumption about their philosophy necessarily make them bad gamers?
As they should. That's how to properly remake a game, IMO.