[Was Majora's Mask 3D a Bad Remake? (Continuation of my Debate with Vanguard333)]

More removed/altered hints from Grezzo:

1) Delayed Learning of the "Inverted Song of Time" & "Song of Double Time"

Remember how the Scarecrow was ceaselessly asking if you wanted to learn how to execute these two songs?

Well in 3DS, he doesn't say this until after the 1st Cycle ends.  This turns a hint that was easy to find into one I think most new players would miss.  After all, why would you talk to this guy again?  When his function is to literally waste your time?  Nothing tells you about his new text, after all.

Could be Grezzo wanted those to be more of a secret (to counter-balance the buff Song of Double Time received), could be they thought the Inverted Song of Time was too strong for how easily you got it (hence the nerf), or they just thought it was odd that he was referring to "that strange song" before you even recovered the Ocarina.  Or maybe it's all of the above? 

Regardless, a 3DS newbie is less likely to learn these than a N64 newbie, without outside help.

2) The Monkeys After Healing Koume

In the N64 version, a bunch of monkeys talk about how their friend tried to solve the poison swamp mystery, but got captured in Deku Palace:

But in 3DS, they were relocated to after you rode the Swamp Tourist ride:

Presumably, this was to encourage exploration, as now there's nothing but Koume saying she'll reward you to guide you to the Tourist Attraction.  That and the Shiekah Stone, of course.

3) Removed Line of Sight From Deku Guards

In the N64 version, there was a row of white dots emanating from each guard indicating their vision, if you made it nighttime:

But 3DS removed this:

Perhaps they believed the white dots utterly trivialized this puzzle?  Or, just looked tacky?

This is in contrast to the moving platforms, where you were required to learn two new skills at once (fighting Deku Scrubs & landing on moving platforms)—and were made to navigate the entire length of the palace again, each time you failed.  That meant that unlike the Deku Guards, there were (relatively) long delays between each attempt.

[Was Majora's Mask 3D a Bad Remake? (Continuation of my Debate with Vanguard333)]

23 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I have no idea. I haven't interacted with anyone in the Zora Hall yet (I'm going to do that tomorrow while getting a piece of heart that can be obtained from the band's songwriter).

Well, they were—we know for a fact the Zoras feel the same urges as humans, as well (Princess Ruto's attraction to Link, for example).

[Was Majora's Mask 3D a Bad Remake? (Continuation of my Debate with Vanguard333)]

18 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I see. I'll try it again, but I did try it multiple times before, and it looked like his blades were out when I released the button.

Anyway, I once heard that there's a popular fan theory that the dead Zora Mikau (the one that tried to get Lulu's eggs back from the pirates and who becomes the Zora Mask) is the father of the eggs. Have you ever heard this theory before, and if so, what did you think of it?

I hadn't, but it makes sense.  The two were an item, right?

[Was Majora's Mask 3D a Bad Remake? (Continuation of my Debate with Vanguard333)]

22 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Zora Link's combat, however, is a different story. Press b three times for basic combo, or hold b to use the Zora Fins like two boomerangs, or at least that's how it is if you aren't L-targeting anything; if you are L-targeting something, then Zora Link will just do a basic melee attack when you release the b button.

 

Strange.  I can execute a Boomerang while targeting, on my N64 emulator.  Try it a few more times.  Target, Hold B (Link should punch, then get ready to throw his blades), then release.

It also might have to do with whether his blades are out at the time you press the B Button—that tripped me up a few times.

[Was Majora's Mask 3D a Bad Remake? (Continuation of my Debate with Vanguard333)]

Hmm...you know, Nerrel used footage of the Shiekah Stone in his review to highlight "nuking the game's difficulty from orbit", though he didn't directly mention it by name.  Just a statement that the difficulty was ground to nothing, along with footage from it.

Even so, I've played around with it, and found that it actually isn't nearly as hand-holding as I thought it would be.  In fact, after Clock Town, you're almost never going to see any of its hints unless you've either already attempted the relevant sections times, or after you've already completed it. 

For some examples, It doesn't even tell you to go to Southern Swamp.  The next hint after "Retrieve Your Ocarina" is "Visit the Old Hags", and only after you've entered the Mystery Woods at least once.  It also doesn't tell you how to beat Oldolwa until you've fought him at least once.

As for optional upgrades, it doesn't seem to tell you how to find Heart Pieces and Fairies until after you've beaten the main boss of the relevant places.  For example, it only tells you about two of the seventeen Heart Pieces you could get after receiving the Song of Time (including the one you got on the way to Skull Kid).  It's not till you beat Oldolwa that it tells you about six more—four in the swamp, and two in the "Dodongo Hole" and "Peahat Hole" in Termina Field.

You guys think this warrants further analysis?  Or is it too minor of a point?

[Was Majora's Mask 3D a Bad Remake? (Continuation of my Debate with Vanguard333)]

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

By the way, how did Shiro end up in the continent of Ylisse after this game ended, and why did he change his name to Kellam?

No idea, friend  !

[Was Majora's Mask 3D a Bad Remake? (Continuation of my Debate with Vanguard333)]

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

I see. So, I need both the mask and the Hookshot. That makes a lot of sense. Getting to Shiro doesn't require either of those, right? I ask because I remember my brother using the Stone Mask to get through the Pirate Fortress (that's one of the reasons I even remembered proto-Kellam Shiro), and you get the Hookshot in the Pirate Fortress.

That's right!  I go out of my way to visit him, in N64!  Makes getting the pictos way easier!

[Was Majora's Mask 3D a Bad Remake? (Continuation of my Debate with Vanguard333)]

9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Okay; I won't. Here's another one: a good thing to do would be to point out a couple of areas where you agree with him to make it clear that you're not just making the video because he didn't like the remake and you did.

Way ahead of you 🙂 !

9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I see. That said, the Stone Tower climb is mandatory.

Oh, it's not so bad.  It's kind of like walking through a bunch of empty space to the Elite 4 in Pokemon R/B/Y.  There's not a heck of a lot going on, but the music, atmosphere, and architecture sets the mood well enough that you don't mind so much.

Not saying cutting out Elegy of Emptiness animations wouldn't have been a good idea though.

9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Anyway; now I have three bottles; my plan for what to do next is to do part of the Anju and Kafei sidequest to get a fourth bottle and the Keaton Mask, probably race the Gorman Brothers for the Garo Mask (though I can probably put that off for a little bit... do I need it to get to Sakon's Hideout?), and then head to the Great Bay after getting a heart piece from the keaton.

Yes, you need Garo's Mask to get to Sakon's.  Otherwise, you can't Hookshot a tree next to that weird old guy (who himself is on a cliff above Shiro the invisible Stone Mask guy).

[Was Majora's Mask 3D a Bad Remake? (Continuation of my Debate with Vanguard333)]

6 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Thanks for acknowledging that point.

Any time.

6 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Matthewmatosis' reviews aren't strictly positive or negative. How his videos work is that, if he labels it a "review", he will discuss the good and the bad, then give his overall view of the game at the end, and it's rarely as simple as just "the game's good" or "the game's bad". If it's labelled a "critique", then he will focus purely on the negative in order to make a point (he did this for Bioshock Infinite and Dark Souls 2 among others). If he titles it "Recommending [x]" then he's mainly going to talk about the good. If it's titled "A Case Study" then, while mainly looking into the game itself, he's using it in order to talk about something involving the wider games industry (he did this for God of War 2018).

Huh...sounds like an interesting man to watch!

6 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Okay. I'm giving you this advice partly because of how I feel about responding to another person's arguments, and partly because a lot of people on YouTube make a name for themselves by making a response video to a bigger name, and you have to be really careful or you can just come across as salty and/or petty. I've seen it happen, though usually to videos that genuinely were mean-spirited, salty and petty. But that's all the more reason to make sure your video can't get lumped in with those ones.

Thank you!  Don't ever hesitate to tell me anything else you think of, alright?

6 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I read somewhere that the dog will bark in the direction of the nearest alien. Is that actually all that useful? 

I never did. 

6 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I see. That makes a lot of sense. In hindsight, I'm honestly rather surprised about where the 3DS version decided to make/not make changes: I've heard plenty about stuff like the Stone Tower climb and the Goron Race, and yet those places were left intact. That's especially jarring when you consider that the one area where they made significant gameplay changes in Ocarina of Time 3D was the most infamous place in the entire game: the Water Temple.

It seems to me that most of the changes were to things tied to progressing the story.  All the optional stuff was mostly untouched, apart from a few exceptions, and the 7th Bottle quest.

[Was Majora's Mask 3D a Bad Remake? (Continuation of my Debate with Vanguard333)]

15 hours ago, Jotari said:

And even if someone has trouble with that jump, the Bunny Hood should let you do it from the exact Angle Nerrel used. I noticed that immediately when watching his video. A[t] this point you could probably make a pretty popular response video by compiling all this misinformation into one video comparing his misinformation with your tests.

Oof, that'd be a project.  Would have to have SFX, actual editing, a thumbnail...all that stuff.  Maybe I'll do that at some point—not for a while, though.

19 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

@FionordeQuester You saying that a negative review needs to be extra careful because a flawed negative review can steer people away from a good game can easily be countered by pointing out that a flawed positive review, by that logic, can steer people towards spending money on a bad game... In other words, it doesn't matter what kind of review Matthewmatosis gave for Ocarina of Time for my example to work.

Good point...

Then yes, Mathewmatosis should have double-checked his facts before posting his video, just like Nerrel should have.  That said, if it was a positive review anyway, then those little boo-boos are mostly harmless, IMO.  They counter-act his main narrative, rather than enhancing it...so if anything, excising those points would've made him and OoT look even better.

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Here's a thought; maybe it's not the phrasing, but the assertion itself. But, if you really wanted to phrase it in such a way that isn't insufferable, how about something like, "He didn't explore this [bit of the gameplay] as much as he should've", "He overlooked [these things here and there]", etc.? Phrase it in terms of what you actually can reasonably extrapolate.

Sure.  If I take Jotari up on his idea, I'll be sure to phrase it like that—I'll even put "I don't think" to soften the statement even more.

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Anyway, in other news, I just got the gilded sword, so, now I'll be on my way to Romani Ranch. Oh, great... a whole night of mounted archery against moving targets coming in from almost all directions... with limited ammo... and stick-only aiming... Please tell me that it's actually a lot easier and less frustrating than it sounds (but only if that's actually true).

It's easy enough, don't worry.  The aliens themselves drop ammunition, and are pretty sluggish besides.  Just make sure you get the ones that appear behind the shed—they're easy to overlook.

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But, by staying close without going into first place too soon, only going up ramps when in spike mode for the speed boost, avoiding getting hit by the other Gorons as much as possible, and hugging the inside of the final turn, I was narrowly able to secure 1st place on my second attempt.

Nice!

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Did the 3DS version do anything to improve the Goron Race, such as removing the rubber-banding on the Gorons? I remember Mario 64 DS removed a lot of the rubber-banding on the penguin slide race, and that was a lot better than the 64 version: it was still fun and reasonably challenging, and I was able to win by a very wide margin by veering off the edge and making a very risky leap onto a lower part of the track; something that, when I tried it in the 64 version, resulted in the penguin pulling ahead of me and securing victory due to the rubber-banding.

Apart from the improved camera, no.  It's just as hard as it was before.

[Was Majora's Mask 3D a Bad Remake? (Continuation of my Debate with Vanguard333)]

1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

It's not just the hastiness (though that certainly is a part of it) but it also conveys a level of perceived superiority & being insufferable, as well as attacking the person rather than the arguments.

A person "being bad" at an activity isn't a value statement of their character, in my mind—it just means they need more practice.  I'm not saying I'm smarter than he is—I'm saying that I think he should have taken more time to explore the 3DS version before criticizing it.  Is that fair?

1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

As for diligence, diligence is indeed important. However, people are human; small mistakes do happen and things sometimes get overlooked. You can be the most thorough person in the world and still mess up. A couple of mistakes does not automatically make a whole review bad or mean that the person must be an idiot at the game or anything like that...

Right...which is why most of the reviewers I enjoy will have segments in their videos, or even follow-up videos, highlighting the things they were wrong about, or things they know could use clarifying.  Linkara is always doing that.  Nostalgia Critic had those "Top 10 ****-up Lists" (whatever his other faults may have been), and etc.

The other thing is, a lot of Nerrel's larger points are matters of opinion—not things I can really "disprove" like I can with the "small" stuff.  That's fine, except for how sensationalized and hyperbolic his language is.  That's great for an entertaining video—it is NOT great for an actual serious comparison, nor should people build their arguments on it.  Yet, that's exactly what some do, and it's frustrating.

So, if it were sensationalized and hyperbolic...but otherwise 100% right, then it's "fair enough".  If it were incorrect on some factual stuff, but had no spin to it at all...then there's not much to really get mad about.  Nerrel's problem is that his video is both...which makes it a pretty easy target for me to criticize.  I'm not even done with all the videos yet, either—they're just gonna take longer, is all.

1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

For an example, I found several things wrong with Matthewmatosis' review of Ocarina of Time (which I will put in a quote below):

Did he acknowledge these errors after the fact, out of curiosity?

1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

Does this mean I think he must be terrible at playing Ocarina of Time or wonder if he actually played the game? Do I think his review is automatically garbage? No. The rest of the review is still really good (especially when he points out that the real problem with the Water Temple was never difficulty, but tedium); the majority of his points are clear and accurate and he does show that he thoroughly understands the game outside of a couple of smaller areas. I'd still recommend the review to people; just with a couple of qualifiers.

Here's the thing—I'm going to guess that his review of OoT was pretty positive, right?  If so, there's no real harm to getting a couple of things wrong—people'll give the game a try.

A negative review, however, has the chance to turn people away for good.  It harms that bit of media, and the people who produced it.  Sometimes they deserve it, oftentimes they don't.  You need to be way more careful criticizing someone or something than you do praising it.  Probably more careful than even I've been, if we're being honest.

As things are now, I see this game being trashed for problems that either don't exist, or are exaggerated to the point of absurdity.   It's bad enough, and prevalent enough, that it violates my sense of justice—hence, I'm a bit angry about it all.  And, having watched Nerrel's video multiple times, I know that he wasn't as careful as he should've been.

TL;DR, you praise something, it's whatever.  You trash something, you'd better be certain you're absolutely right about what you're saying.  More certain than I've been, in fact.

1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

No, I would not; all that still sounds like jumping to conclusions and being insufferable (except maybe the "made newbie mistakes" one; that one sounds the least insufferable out of a set of insufferable remarks).

Then I'm at a loss.  How would you phrase what I was trying to say?  What's the polite way of saying "he made newbie mistakes, and blamed the game for it"?

[Was Majora's Mask 3D a Bad Remake? (Continuation of my Debate with Vanguard333)]

In any case, would you feel better if I said Nerrel "played like a newbie"?  "Made newbie mistakes"?  "Played poorly"?  I'll do that, if you want—what I was trying to say was that he was unfamiliar with 3D's mechanics, did poorly as a result...and came away thinking the game was at fault, not himself.

In other words, he did the exact same thing he accused Nintendo's play-testers of doing.

[Was Majora's Mask 3D a Bad Remake? (Continuation of my Debate with Vanguard333)]

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

(1) Rather funny that a speedrunning site would get something like timing wrong.

Yeah, the 3D section is horribly outdated.  I knew that going in but...I kinda assumed they'd get that basic thing right.

Just goes to show the importance of always double-checking, eh?  

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

(3) Sure, though it'll have to be in a different cycle from one where I do the Goron race, since it requires doing almost the whole dungeon all over again.

The way I did it was that I went to the bridge room with the Freezards, went up the stairs into the room with the invisible platforms, then just rolled up to the correct spot from there.  You can get there without any keys, thankfully.

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

(5) I see. How did you manage to take the picture?

In 3D, I just took the picture in Great Bay.  Had his face in the center of the camera and everything.  But in N64, I had to take his picture in the "Road to Southern Swamp" screen.

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

(6) I doubt the reason was just an aesthetic change, otherwise they could've easily changed the fairies without changing the rewards. Also, you got the fairy colors the wrong way around: Fairy of Power fairies are pink and Fairy of Wisdom fairies are green, though I suspect you simply made a typo, as you go on to say, "Maybe they [swapped the Woodfall and Snowhead fairies because they] wanted the green fairies in the forest dungeon?" As I said, I suspect it was the more magic thing, despite both the inside and outside of Snowhead Temple showering the player with mana refills.

Yeah, it was a typo.  And yeah, I'm thinking it was both.  A slight bone towards players that'd be using magic a lot, and just a nice aesthetic change on the side.

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

No; GameCube had it that Snowhead had green fairies and Woodfall had pink fairies.

Cool.  That's what I thought.

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

( 8 I see, though doesn't a huge eyeball pop out of his back in the 3DS version whenever he crashes; an eye that's then meant to be shot with fire arrows? In the N64 version, if he crashes, you just shoot Goht with a fire arrow, and you can maybe shoot one before he gets up and resumes his run. The bulk of the damage is done through Goron Link.

It does, but that's mostly a visual change.  The only change, gameplay wise, was that Goht has a much less exploitable AI.  In N64, you could just get him to stand still and get showered in arrows, like so:

You CAN still shoot him down with arrows in 3DS, he just doesn't stop like he does in N64.

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

I haven't played A Link to the Past, though I have played all of Link's Awakening and bits of the first two games. Bosses having weakpoints and stuff like that is a very early thing in Zelda; I'd hardly say that Ocarina of Time was the first to lean into the puzzle boss angle. Throwing a bomb into a big dodongo's mouth, for instance, is as early as the first Zelda game. For another example, tennis bosses are as early as A Link to the Past.

Mmm...yeah, Link's Awakening is probably the first to really emphasize the puzzle boss aspect, now that you bring that game up.

The other three...I mean, they've got the basic "weak to X and Y items", but they're significantly more chaotic.  Much more reliant on your skill, it seems to me, than later games—especially the 3D ones.

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

You know; I don't really like when people jump to say stuff like that; especially jumping to accuse the other of stinking at the game and stuff like that. At most, you've disproven four things that he said; at least two of which were easily missable content:

I probably am being hasty, you're right... But like, how does one misremember something like that?  "I grabbed this fairy via the ledge when I play N64", when it turns out it was never grabbable at all?  And at the very least, why not verify it first?

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

It's easy, given how Odolwa was restructured in the 3DS version, with him using his block a lot more and hits not doing anything if he blocks even if you aren't hitting the shield, him now having an eyeball weakpoint on his head, and there being a lot more Deku Flowers in the room, to try all the old methods for fighting Odolwa, fail due to those new things, and come away thinking that all the old attacks were taken away. Oh, and I'm going by your footage and statements, along with Zelda Wiki's, when listing those changes. And if you disagree with him about giving a new, easy method being bad; he's not wrong for having the viewpoint that it's bad; just as you're not wrong for having the viewpoint that it isn't bad.

Right.  I'll leave it at that.

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

It's easy, if one played the N64 version and never found out about leaping onto that platform from the bridge to get the stray fairy, to try a method that, to one's recollection, worked in the N64 version, find that it doesn't work in the 3DS version, and come away thinking that the Deku Flower option is the only one remaining.

But that's the whole problem right there—even being charitable, it's clear he didn't fact check everything first, nor did he experiment with the 3DS for that long.  I mean, part of the point of me playing through both versions is precisely because I didn't want to make errors like that...that's why I was able to correct the few I did.  He's a content creator with more than 100k subs—yet it doesn't look like he's being as diligent as I am.

[Was Majora's Mask 3D a Bad Remake? (Continuation of my Debate with Vanguard333)]

Anyway, here we go: 

You know, everything till now was explainable by "Nerrel stunk at the game, bought into hype, and was too impatient"... Now I'm wondering how much N64 he actually played.

[Was Majora's Mask 3D a Bad Remake? (Continuation of my Debate with Vanguard333)]

9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

No; the N64 version speeds up the first cycle as well; it has nothing to do with the inverted song of time. I didn't time it, but I do have my clock beside me when I'm playing the game, so I know the first cycle is sped up. You can also tell by how quickly the postman moves on the first cycle compared to other cycles, as, when I was determining what time I could play the postman's minigame after I got the bunny hood, I followed him around on the First Day with the flow of time being normal. He's slower than he was on the first cycle.

Also, the Zelda wiki says that the first cycle is faster than normal in all versions, and that it's actually 1.66 times faster than a normal cycle because each in-game hour on the first cycle is 27 real-life seconds rather than 45.

...Huh.  You're right.  Curse you, Zeldaspeedruns.com!  You lied to me!

https://www.zeldaspeedruns.com/mm3d/knowledge/remake-changes!

9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I was more making a humorous reference, and I'm sure even Nerrel would say he was exaggerating for comedic effect and to illustrate a point.

Ah.  Whoops!

9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Well, because an unrelated plummet, pause & un-pause crashed the game last time I went through the dungeon, I decided to play it safe and use the Deku Link method rather than try leaping towards it. I do feel like double-checking if the ledge can be grabbed; it's not that I don't trust you or anything like that; it's just better if two people check because one might be wrong.

Oh, please do!  I don't wanna have to correct myself again 😄 !

9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I will say that, normally throughout the video, he'd make a point by showing how it worked in the N64 version, so in retrospect, it is a bit odd that he didn't show himself reaching the ledge in the N64 version.

The video'll be up in about 53 minutes (I have less than a MB of upload speed), so you'll be able to see, then.  Could be I messed up...but I doubt it.

9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

As for the Gerudo pictures... okay. As for Tingle pictures, I couldn't figure out how to get a picture of Tingle without leaving the swamp and rendering the picture unacceptable to the swamp tour guide, so I took a picture of the Deku King; doing that instead rewards the same piece of heart.

A right pain, it is.  But yeah, it's good they gave you  multiple options, at least.

9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I heard the 3DS version swapped the extended magic meter around with Woodfall Temple's reward, which strikes me as an odd and unnecessary change; I can't imagine anything between Woodfall and Snowhead that's made easier by having twice as much magic, the loss of the Great Spin Attack until clearing Snowhead is quite a loss since I found it rather useful, and making the Great Fairy reward a magic meter for two Great Fairies in a row just seems like it would lead at least one person unfamiliar with the game to think that all the Great Fairy rewards are magic meters. Again; it's not a change I'd automatically call bad; it just strikes me as odd and unnecessary. I'm going to guess that it came about from playtesting Snowhead and noticing that you have to use fire arrows, the lens of truth, and Goron rolling (which all consume magic), but Snowhead practically showers the player with mana refills, so you never really risk running out of mana. If you do run out, just go to the next room, smash some jars or some piles of snow, and then go back where you left.

If I had to guess, it's the color of the fairies.  The Fairy of Power (Spin Attack) fairies are green, whereas the Fairy of Wisdom fairies (the Double Magic meter) are pink.  Maybe they wanted the green fairies in the forest dungeon?  That, and more magic. 

Yes, they didn't just swap the rewards—they swapped the fairies themselves.  N64 Snowhead had green fairies, 3DS Snowhead has pink fairies.  Gamecube didn't change that, right?

9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Anyway, I won't be needing that fast way to defeat Goht; I already bested him rather quickly using the Goron rolling method. Sticking to the inside line (i.e. to the left of Goht) enables you to avoid all his attacks that he makes while you're catching up to him except maybe the odd stalactite (though I only got hit by a stalactite once throughout the whole fight), then just keep moving around to hit him once you've caught up to him. If you're moving around enough, you'll also avoid the tracking lasers. If he crashes and stops moving, immediately switch to human Link and hit him with a fire arrow; he gets back up too quickly for bombs to be effective. I bit him in only one or two in-game hours; maybe three.

Cool!  Good job!

9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

With Goht, you pursue him via rolling as Goron Link, he starts off just kicking rocks behind him, and as he takes more damage, he tosses out more and more attacks, so the fight just keeps ramping up. Plus, neither of these bosses have weaknesses; a hit anywhere does damage, so the challenge (and the fun) is figuring out the best way to hit them in the first place without letting them hit you. I can't think of any other Zelda game that does this with the main bosses; normally you see something like this with an Iron Knuckle miniboss or something like that if you ever see it at all.

That's exactly how he works in 3DS as well.  He's the least changed boss out of all of them. 

As for the bosses...yeah, they remind me of how they used to be in "A Link to the Past" and earlier.  Significantly less structured, and significantly harder.  OoT was the first game to really lean into the "puzzle boss" angle—perhaps because they were worried that Link would be too slow, and the camera wouldn't be able to handle it.

9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

In short: they highlight the difference between challenge and difficulty, but in a positive way: they challenge you on your ingenuity and making use of the mechanics available without being too difficult.  Of course, Gyorg and Twinmold could prove me completely wrong.

Eh, Gyorg is alright.  A little plain, but alright.  Twinmold's kinda janky though...that said, the blue worm has a weakness to Fire Arrows, and the red worm has a weakness to Ice Arrows.  4 shots from each will slay them, which I didn't know at the time.  Hope you have a better time than I did!

9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Anyway, I will be doing the goron race tomorrow to get the gilded sword, and then it's off to the ranch to stop aliens from stealing cattle and then keep evil Luigis from destroying a cart full of milk bottles. Isn't it (genuinely) fun just how weird almost every part of Majora's Mask sounds both in and out of context?

Indeed!

[Was Majora's Mask 3D a Bad Remake? (Continuation of my Debate with Vanguard333)]

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As for the Great Fairy thing, I honestly didn't mind Tatl telling you to go to North Clock Town to find her; the first 3-Day Cycle in the N64 version is the only one where you can't save, and it's sped-up compared to the other cycles, so it does make sense that the first hint for where to go is a direct one. For the 3DS version, they probably felt safe removing the hint because you could now save during the first 3-Day Cycle.

It's actually only the 3DS version that speeds up the Day 1 Cycle—making time move at 1.5x speed instead of regular speed.  Unless you meant that you don't have the ISoT yet, and therefore it's sped up?  The meaning is ambiguous, so I decided to explain that just to be safe 😛 .

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Plus, it means Tatl also tells the player to talk to the Bombers for hints, which ties into how the Bombers give a lot more hints to stuff in the new version (and, according to Nerrel's video, are far more relentless about it... cue parody ominous music).

Oh, they're not so bad.  You barely notice them really, apart from the Kamaro's Dance cutscene.  Honestly though, I didn't have a problem even with that.  It just looked to me like the kid saw something cool going on, and decided he wanted to dance too!

I am glad you brought up Nerrel, though.  I visited Snowhead yesterday, and...

Oh, and the ledge was never grabbable—I checked that myself as well.  Might even update the video with that.

But, speaking of screw-ups, I was wrong regarding the Gerudo pirates pictos.  The "I need a shot of their face!" text DOES still exist...It's just that the game's a bit hazy on what exactly counts as a "face".  If I had to guess, it's a measure of "distance".  Otherwise, I'm at a loss as to why the following examples worked:

N64 EXAMPLE (The Fisherman accepted this, even though it's the back of her head!):

3DS EXAMPLES (The Fisherman accepted both of these!):

 

I am, however, right about the Tingle pic requirements!  Double checked that real quick as well!

[Was Majora's Mask 3D a Bad Remake? (Continuation of my Debate with Vanguard333)]

Oh wow, found some interesting stuff about the 3DS:

1) They fixed the camera during Goron rolling!  The camera pans back significantly further than in N64!

N64 Version:

3DS Version:

From my observation (having just come off N64) Goron rolling itself is also smoother.  3DS Goron seems to turn left and right slower than N64 Goron, so rolling up into Snowhead was significantly easier than it ever was in N64.

2) Grezzo actually removed a hint about where the Great Fairy was, on Cycle 1!  To compare...

N64 ("The Great Fairy's Fountain is in North Clock Town"):

3DS ("The Great Fairy's...somewhere.  Look, I dunno.  Try talking to one of the kids!")

  

[Was Majora's Mask 3D a Bad Remake? (Continuation of my Debate with Vanguard333)]

Blast.  Oh well—your thoughts on the N64 will have to suffice 😛 .

[Was Majora's Mask 3D a Bad Remake? (Continuation of my Debate with Vanguard333)]

12 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Eh, when it comes to video games and telegraphing strikes, I can forgive a small amount of it, as otherwise, players just would not have the reaction time necessary. But I see your point.

Thanks 🙂 .

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I see your point. In any case, I guess I just meant that I myself wouldn't really find the 3DS's sped-up version of Goron Link's punches any more convenient than the N64 versions, but that's just me speaking as one of the few people to apparently not mind the slow attack speed.

Trust me, it's way more convenient.  I mean, you could work with N64, but 3DS made it feel good. 

Do you plan to give 3DS a look, out of curiosity?  I know your opinion on its production, but it'd be fun to hear your experience ends up being with the version itself.

[Was Majora's Mask 3D a Bad Remake? (Continuation of my Debate with Vanguard333)]

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

@FionordeQuester Thanks.

Perhaps a better idea might've been to tap a for the slow roll, and then hold a to build up speed into the fast roll. Adjusting the camera a bit to better see what's ahead of Goron Link also would've been nice. But, yeah; I guess I'll just have to "git gud". I'm sure it won't take me 1,000 tries tomorrow.

Good luck, and hang in there!

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

Anyway, as for that change to Goron Link's punches, as I said; I don't mind the slow speed and I can bring down enemies quickly even with it by timing my attacks well (for instance, I'm usually able to punch a Wolfos before it punches me), so I'm honestly not sure what the point would be.

Looking at the two again, they also changed the animations.  N64 Goron throws this ridiculous looking haymaker, like he's never thrown a punch before.  3DS Goron throws his punches much straighter.  They're still haymakers, but he doesn't pull his arms all the way back before the punch, like N64 Goron does.  

I think it looks more like how Darmani would actually fight, on top of being a straight buff to his offense.

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

Plus, it, combined with the Giant's Mask not growing the sword or shield in the 3DS version, kind-of eliminates the need for the gilded sword. If something you get anyway can deliver the same blow at the same speed as something you have to go out of your way to get, why go out of your way to get the other thing?

The Gilded Sword doubles its damage with Jump Slashes, and can do 360 degree attacks with what I call "Quick Spins".  Hylian Link himself is more agile, and can shield when moving.  This is on top of being able to use his other items.

[Was Majora's Mask 3D a Bad Remake? (Continuation of my Debate with Vanguard333)]

17 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

By the way, I just reached Snowhead Temple in the GameCube version (and might've completed it if the game hadn't had its second crash), and, in regards to the Goron rolling, am I the only person who found controlling it completely unintuitive, twitchy, and just downright a terrible experience? Rolling through the path with the ramps was fine, but trying to roll to the temple's entrance, and most of the rolling sections within the temple, is just terrible for me.

It's hard for me to say, since I'd played on a keyboard for this run (I donated most of my games to charity—partially cuz I knew I could emulate them anyway).  That's terrible for movement...but for what it's worth, yeah, I had the same problems with Goron rolling.

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Seriously; getting to the temple requires first getting across an extremely narrow, curved bridge (which I fell off probably 100 times) that you're encouraged to get through by rolling because of the boulders, and then rolling up a spiral ramp to the entrance, and I probably fell off that spiral ramp about 200 times.

Same.

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Seriously; because the paths are often very narrow and Goron Link is very fast, you have to get the angle pretty much exactly right, and I would tilt the control stick just the tiniest amount to adjust his angle, only for the game to read it as me wanting Goron Link to veer off and plummet. Then, there are the sloped turns where you have to use Goron Link, and you have to steer him otherwise he will bounce off the wall and go flying out and away from the slope at a 45-degree angle, and there, suddenly, no amount of steering was good enough to avoid him hitting the walls. So, on flat surfaces, any amount of steering is too much, but on banked curves, no amount of steering is good enough, and the spiral ramp into the temple has both!

I'm not sure if it makes it better, but, it is interesting there's a "slow but easy" option vs. a "fast but hard" option.  Still, perhaps it would've been nice to have Down on the joystick function as a "brake" feature?  Hold the opposite direction to remain in "slow Goron roll" mode?

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Seriously; I can't be the only one who found the Goron rolling infuriating. Someone, please tell me: how am I supposed to "git gud" at the Goron rolling? There's nowhere to practice it without plummeting over and over again!

Only thing I can think of is that it's otherwise the fastest way to travel in the game (even beating out Epona).  Hence, you'd want to get good at it just so you can power through the days.

Again, not a counter-argument—just a thought.

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Ironically, the thing I see the most complaints about with Goron Link: his slow punching speed, I honestly did not mind at all. I found it easy to get good at timing my attacks to hit enemies, and since his attacks are as powerful as the gilded sword, enemies go down quickly. If multiple enemies surrounded me or they blocked my punches one too many times, I just switched to using the cannonball attack (pressing a to curve and pressing be to jump and hit the ground) and the shockwave would deal with them. I heard that the 3DS remake speeds up Goron Link's punches so that they're now as fast as a sword strike, and I honestly don't see the point in that. I don't see what harm it necessarily does, but it strikes me as a bit of a useless change.

You're correct about his punches.  It's extremely nice to have, if you dropped your sword off, and don't want to just Song of Double Time your way to its completion!

[Was Majora's Mask 3D a Bad Remake? (Continuation of my Debate with Vanguard333)]

Just finished my playthrough of the N64 version (all this talk made me decide I was gonna LP them soon).  Thoughts:

1) First of all, I apologize for stating there was an extra dungeon.  I was thinking of the Secret Shrine, but...turns out that was in N64 too.  Whoops.

2) I'd forgotten just how slow the text speed was in this version.  You can skip most of it via the B button, but for cutscenes like the Giants after each boss...owch.

3) Never try to do any kind of aiming with a keyboard.  Ever.  Especially not with N64 Zelda controls.  Or if you do, be darn sure your emulator has a Virtual Pad function!

4) Zora's Moon dungeon is completely different.  N64 was pure trial-and-error—you just kept choosing between "left or right tunnel", and just had to memorize where the Heart Piece and Exit was.  It's only in 3DS where you're required to hit timed switches and do well-timed Dolphin Dives.  Yet more evidence that Grezzo was not afraid of challenge.

5) After re-experiencing Gyorg & Twinmold, I can definitely see why Grezzo felt the need to re-work them, especially Twinmold.  Going through them:

Gyorg: Brain-dead simple for as late in the game as he is.  There's basically three ways to do the fight...

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Method #1: "The Boring Strat"—Shoot him with an arrow, dive down and magic shield him, get back on the platform and...repeat four times till dead.  That's the whole strat in a sentence.

Method #2: "The Aggressive Strat"—Chateau de Romani to infinite magic, and keep slamming into the top of him (only the top stuns him—the rest is arbitrarily invincible).  Sounds pretty cool...until you realize just how awful the camera is at "fast and furious" instead of "slow and methodical".  I could barely see him half the times I struck him

Method #3: "The Speedrun Strat"—Shoot him as he charges (so he's stuck in the wall), sink down while Magic Shielding, quickly rise up and down before he moves again, and he'll immediately get stunned again.  Just as trivially easy as Method 1, so long as you got the rhythm down.

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Twinmold: Yesterday, or the day before, I called him "competent but boring".  Having done it again..."competent" might've been too strong of a word.  He's easier for certain, but otherwise just as janky as the 3DS version.  Not janky in all the same ways, but janky all the same. 

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—First of all, you can void out, just like in Gerudo Desert.  Do that, and you'll exit the boss room and have to start the entire fight over again.  The borders aren't clearly marked either, apart from the fact that the breakable towers stop extending outward at a certain point.  You wouldn't expect to have to be careful of such a thing. 

—Secondly, the camera zooms way too close to Giant Link.  I'm trying to track two enemies who're each big enough to fill the screen, who're random enough to spawn from wherever they want, and only have two places where you can hurt them... And this is how the game'll look:

—Thirdly, the lag.  There's destructible environments, three giant figures wrestling on screen, a sandstorm blowing, and of course the recoil effects every time Link strikes the wrong spot on their bodies.  The N64 is being pushed to its absolute limits, even with the Expansion Pack, and it compounds the already sluggish movement of Giant Link.

—Despite all the above problems, shrinking down and arrowing them isn't a better alternative.  Tiny Link is moving across sand that slows him down every step of the way, trying to get to giant worms that travel across the sky.  Weak points will take forever to come out of the sand, at which point the front of the body will already move to block it, or another worm will strike from behind.  Plus, the arena doesn't refill arrows—only magic.

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Of course, Twinmold hits like a wet noodle (even without Double Defense), so you can still overpower it by mashing the B button...but getting a clean fight is fairly difficult. 

The only consistent way I've found is to Crouch Shield, so I can block it at most of the places it can spawn.  After that, it's a matter of getting one of them to ram me head-first.  By doing that, I could chain together a flurry of Crouch Stabs while blocking all its attacks.  But...also that requires me to be stationary for most of the fight.  Practical...but boring as all get-out.

So TL;DR, he sucks in N64, he sucks in 3DS...Twinmold sucks period.  He's a janky mess no matter which version he's in!

EDIT: On a brighter note, most of the mini-bosses are awesome!  Wizzrobe, Wart, Igos du Ikana and his men, Garo Master, & Gomess are all incredibly fun to fight, while being tricky to block and dodge!

[Was Majora's Mask 3D a Bad Remake? (Continuation of my Debate with Vanguard333)]

5 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Oh; I'm not saying that changes are bad; apart from the stupid plot-ghost things that frankly didn't need to exist, I quite like Final Fantasy 7 Remake. I'm just saying, there's a reason for expressions like, "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater", "if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it", etc.

Right.

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I could see it as possible to unintentionally make a bad-faith argument; for instance, I learned in a critical thinking course I took as an elective that one key to argumentation is to interpret someone's argument in the most favourable reasonable light, and then give no quarter in criticizing/responding to it, and that the cause of the strawman fallacy (just to be clear, not the definition; the cause) is someone skipping steps and unfavourably interpreting the argument. I could see someone accidentally strawman another through simple misinterpretation; it's unlikely, and usually someone who is strawmanning another is doing so on purpose, but I could see it being done accidentally, and the Strawman Fallacy is a type of bad-faith argument. And, incidentally, I did actually once encounter someone online who did indeed have an absolutely stunning lack of self-awareness (it was in a YouTube comments section and it's a long story).

I see.  I do generally try to interpret arguments in the best light.  It's just, regarding the play-testers thing, I don't differentiate between "play-tester" and "gamer".  So it sounded to me like you were saying that "Good Play-tester = Bad Gamer".  Thank you for clearing that up for me.

On another note, how does this principle apply to companies like Grezzo?  I ask, because I think I've finally realized what's been bothering me the whole time.  You've helped me put words to it with your explanation of "bad faith", so I hope you hear it out.

It seems to me any time there's a change most folks disagree with (not saying this is you, or anyone else here), the instant presumption is that Grezzo was incompetent, or pandering to casuals, or something.  And then even when it's a genuine improvement, the reaction will be "well, they had to do that because of [such and such] reason", or "they wouldn't have done that if they weren't trying to pander to casuals", or something.  And then I have to work hard to think of or present alternatives. 

For instance (not saying this is you, except No. 3.  But only No. 3—the rest are "other guys elsewhere")

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1) "Slow Deku Hopping was a side effect of a careless change, rather than intentional game design" (admittedly wasn't sure of this myself, till I saw swapped Deku Pad placement)

2) "They lied about the game staying just as hard as OG Majora's Mask" (when the alternative is that they made a distinction between "hard" and "cryptic", or simply tried to make up for lost difficulty with added difficulty elsewhere)

3) "The Deku shadows probably only got bigger because they needed to do it for the 3DS' tiny screen" (rather than it just being something they felt like doing)

4) "They wouldn't have removed the 'Tingle picture must be taken in the swamp', 'Gerudo Pirate needs her face in the frame', or 'Oceanside Spider House must be cleared in Day 1' requirements, or "You don't have to watch the full Song of Soaring animation every time anymore", if it weren't for Nintendo's aggressive pandering to casuals" (rather than them just being game designers fixing something frustrating).

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It's this presumption about them, as game developers working on Majora's Mask, that colors every discussion.  Every good change was done for the wrong reasons, and every bad change had equally bad intentions behind it.  I'm not saying this applies to you—I'm saying this is the general impression I get from what I've seen/heard/read from the 3D discourse.

It strikes me as unfair.  Is it valid for me to have that feeling?

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I suppose, and I can certainly understand that. Though, for me, it does beg the question: when the original hardware grows old and can no longer run the game, will those multiple versions all be available in the future for people to play, or will only one of them exist going forward?

I'll worry more about that the day Nintendo stops emulating their old NES games on all their modern consoles.  As-is, they've...actually been pretty generous about that.  Shockingly so.

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For me, a video game remake has to do two things:

1. Have a clear direction about what sort of remake it wants to be, be it deliberately retro/throwback (Ocarina of Time/Shadow Dragon), a full overhaul (Final Fantasy 7 remake) or somewhere in-between. One of my biggest criticisms of Shadow of Valentia was that it seemed rather directionless and all over the place in this regard.

2. Be made to highlight what was good about the original; if this sounds deliberately vague, that's because it is; with this one, I'm basically just saying that a remake should be made in such a way that it clearly recognizes what appealed to people for the original, if that makes sense. What was good/unique/interesting should be front-and-center.

I see.  For me, they didn't change anything I liked about Majora's Mask, apart from the Deku & Zora movement.  Even Twinmold was just a change from "boring but competent" to "interesting but janky". 

Actually, my first reaction was "wow these tweaks are rad"!  "I'm glad they weren't afraid to experiment"!  "They added a whole new side-quest, and a whole new optional dungeon"!  "Wow, these boss fights are brand new!", and etc.  I came out thinking they almost nailed both of those points.

[Was Majora's Mask 3D a Bad Remake? (Continuation of my Debate with Vanguard333)]

11 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Perhaps; I still haven't gotten to Goht yet, though, so another time perhaps.

Sure thing.  I'll be on stand-by for if you need it. 

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I see. I'm just pointing out that it is a dangerous mindset; all too often a push to please everyone just ends up pleasing no one. Just look at Metroid Other M: the game was made in the hopes of increasing the rather small Japanese fanbase for the Metroid series (the series has never been nearly as big a success in Japan as it was in the west) and not only did it fail to bring in more Japanese fans, it angered huge amounts of Western fans and ended up a flop as a result.

Sure, it's dangerous.  But I don't think it's bad in and of itself.  Just look at Metroid: Zero Mission.  That was a remake of the very first game, yet it changed so much, it's practically a brand new game in itself.  Yet, that got nothing but warm critical reception.  

...Probably helped that the original Metroid was packaged with it, too.

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Oh, yeah; I forgot about that.

Mmm.  Make sure you complete the Oceanside Skulltula House on Day 1, too.  That was another thing I forgot about, since I'd gotten used to 3DS version.

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I see.

Indeed—I've gotten old enough, now, that I have to carefully weigh how much money I'm putting down, when buying all these new-fangled "PS5's", or whatever 😛 .  That, and whether I'll play 'em often enough to warrant the cost.

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It's okay; I figured you weren't using them to argue in bad faith; at least, not intentionally.

Hmm...is it possible to unintentionally argue in bad faith?  At least, without a stunning lack of self-awareness?

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The thing is that I'm not defining them as gamers at all; I'm pointing out that their perspective as playtesters looking to fix a game is different from that of a player looking to play a game.

I see.  I'm not sure you can divorce the two, though.  Especially since these're guys that were gamers in the past.

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I don't think so; at least, not as the main thing you're going in to do. Take Ocarina of Time 3D for example; for that game, they weren't going in to see what needed to be fixed; they went in to see what the game was and what people enjoyed about it. Their goal was essentially, "This is one of the most acclaimed games of all time; let's put it on the 3DS without breaking it." It was even to the point where they even made sure to preserve a number of glitches (such as apparently one involving Jabu-Jabu) and, after realizing that they had removed something as small as one of the ways to burn the spider web above the entrance to the boss room in the Deku Tree, they went back and added it back in just to preserve the original experience as much as possible. I'm not saying "How they remade Ocarina good; how they remade Majora bad"; I'm just pointing out that there is a striking difference between what mindset the team had when remaking the two games, and that one method resonated with more fans than the other.

Hmm...honestly, my thought is that I prefer having two distinctly different versions of something I enjoy, rather than having two of the same thing on different consoles.  For OoT, for example, there's not really any incentive for me to go back to the N64 version, you know?  Especially with Master Quest packaged inside the 3DS!

[Was Majora's Mask 3D a Bad Remake? (Continuation of my Debate with Vanguard333)]

Hold on, before you reply, I edited my argument a bit.  Wanted to warn you in advance, since I can see you typing.