Reikken

She can have some trouble at the start of ch 2, yes. You can still get a few kills with her, though. Like on the first turn after Dieck and friends show up, there's a soldier right in front of the forts, right? If Lot misses one of his hand axe tosses, or if the soldier has too much hp/def for him to ORK, Thany can finish. After that, yeah, it's just throwing javelins from behind until that knot of enemies is cleared. One thing that can help is the fact that the archer always moves last, so you don't have to worry about it running in melee range of Dieck/Lot and shooting over them at Thany until there won't be anyone standing in the way of it by the end of the enemy phase. And then the clean-up afterwards is easy. ch 3 is easy to get kills in ch 4, fortunately, there are only two of these lolnomads on the entire map. And they come one at a time, so it's quite manageable. For instance, if you have Marcus do the initial counterattack, you can probably kill off all but one of the cavaliers in the first group on turn 2, and even give Thany the killing blow on the nomad. Marcus silver lance + Thany iron lance = dead nomad. Of course, as with everything on this chapter especially, you'll need to make sure you have someone else in range in case Thany misses. And not just for Thany's sake. Like Lugh can take one cavalier to the face, but he can't take a cavlier and a nomad. Indeed, replaying this chapter just now, Thany's weakness to bows had no effect on what I did. And this was an old file in which I hadn't really leveled Thany; she was lv 2. Instead of 3-4 like she would be if you plan on actually using her. ch5... OHK by a hand axe? No... Lugh and Chad, yes, but even a base level Thany doesn't get OHK'd by a hand axe. The fighter would need to have 15 str for that. I'm seeing 13s and 14s, but no 15s. I guess there could be one with 15 str. But that's vs base level Thany anyway. She's no longer base level now. Steel axes, yes, OHK, but not hand axes. Anyway, she obviously won't be as useful as someone with a sword and extant hp/def (ie the top tier units), but compared to Lot, she's doing plenty fine enough. There are quite a few mercs as well, and being able to attack from weird places helps too.

So why is Guy a tier lower than Raven?

And? That doesn't mean that Mist herself is. Being behind someone who has an enemy in front (Mist healing someone who is right next to an enemy) is very different from being right next to an enemy (Volke, not even attacking), and more different still from taking a counterattack from an enemy and also being right next to an enemy (Volke, attacking). But yeah, if it's only 1 or 2 outlying enemies per chapter, even Volke should be ok. He's not doing much other than wasting a unit slot, but he should be ok as far as needing to be babied goes. If Volke isn't fighting later, then he loses out on the utility provided by him finally having somewhat decent combat ability. Also, taking exp early, when people really need those levels, has more of a negative effect than taking exp later, after everyone has already promoted. Actually, both have a 0% chance to round either up or down. Stats do not round, ever. Unless you mean fixed mode, in which case it's always a 100% chance to round down. I'm certain we've been over this before.

True enough, lesser amounts of exp is easier to get. However, most chapters don't have priests, significantly reducing the exp he can easily get. It makes that ~75 more like ~50. Also, when he has actual use (is opening chests and stuff), he isn't gaining as much exp since opening chests doesn't give exp. For those chapters, he can now actually compete with Mist in use, but he gains less exp for it. 13, 16, ...and that's it. So Oh ok. My bad. I was off by 0.05 points. Sorry. But in all seriousness, that is an interesting point, even if the details for this particular point are rather worthless: Band usage can be assumed on bexp level ups. I don't think it'll make a notable difference, though. Like +0.25 str late game. Also, it's worth noting fixed mode base growth points: Volke: 45 hp, 45 skl, 90 luck. Mist: 60 hp, 50 str, 90 mag, 80 skl, 25 spd, 50 def, 50 res

"Exp hogging", if that's what you want to call it, does indeed exist. It's just that it every fighter does it, so we usually ignore it, as it applies to everyone just the same. Everyone has to share combat exp. However, when comparing a healer or dancer thing to a fighter, the fighter has the disadvantage of having to draw from that much more limited combat exp pool. Yes, the saff exp pool is limited as well, but usually, as it is in this case, the limit is so huge that it doesn't matter. You have only two healers, and like 8+ units taking damage. There's way more than enough for two healers to be healing all the time. Yes, Mist's defenses are indeed quite poor early on. However, that's not a problem like it is for Volke. Volke has to get up in the enemy's face to gain exp, and almost always take a counterattack as well. Mist...doesn't. Now... Volke ORKing things? Like what? Here's a lv 11 Volke: Knife: 14.5 atk, 13.6 AS, 134.5 hit, 11.6 crit - - 34.5 avo, 25.7 hp, 7.2 def, 3.1 res, 7.3 critavo That's pretty cool AS, but lulz attack power and defenses. ch 11 features mostly cavaliers, which he does about 3 x2 damage to and takes 13 on the counterattack from, but there are some soldiers, and...mages! Surely he can one-round those, right? 5 def, 23 hp, 9-10 AS. Nope. Even mages he can't 2HK. In fact, the wind one he might not even double.

Something tells me you don't have a good grasp of what's actually going on with the stat probabilities. What exactly are you talking about? For every downward deviation, there is an upward one (caps and such aside), and it applies to both characters in a comparison. Then how is he reaching 20/2?

_25_ _26_ _27_ _28_ _29_ _30_ _31_ _32_ _33_ _34_ _35_ _36_ _37_ _38_ _39_ _40_ _41_ _42_ 0.01 0.02 0.05 0.10 0.15 0.19 0.18 0.14 0.09 0.04 0.01 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 20/1 Lucius's normal stat spread for hp. Average it together, and you get 30.4, according to rpgdl.com. However, I guess because of rounding error, the decimals only add up to 0.98, so if one were to average the numbers given, the result would need to be divided by 0.98. (0.01*25 + 0.02*26 + 0.05*27 + 0.10*28 + 0.15*29 + 0.19*30 + 0.18*31 + 0.14*32 + 0.09*33 + 0.04*34 + 0.01*35) / 0.98 = 30.3163 Not exactly 30.4 because of rounding error, but close enough. Now, to add a 20% chance of getting an angelic robe, that means that 80% of the time he doesn't get it, and the other 20% of the time he does. So to make the averages reflect that, I could . . . Take two sets of the numbers, and for one set, I add 7 to each stat number. Then for the set without the +7, I multiply all the probability numbers by 0.80 (or in this case 0.80/0.98), so that they add up to 0.80. For the set with the +7, I multiply all the probability numbers by 0.20 (0.20/0.98). And then I add the two sets together. So I have 80% without, and 20% with. Or, for a little bit less multiplying loads of numbers... 0.80 : 0.20 is the same ratio (4:1) as 1.00 : 0.25. So I could multiply the +7 set by 0.25 and multiply the other set by 1.0 (ie don't do anything to it), and then divide by 1.25 (1.00 + 0.25) after adding the two sets together. (Actually I have to divide by 1.25*0.98) _stats: _25_ __26_ __27_ __28_ __29_ __30_ __31_ __32_ __33_ __34_ __35_ __36_ __37_ __38_ __39_ __40_ __41_ __42_ +0 Set: .01 .02 .05 .10 .15 .19 .18 .14 .09 .04 .01 .00 .00 .00 .00 .00 .00 .00 +7 Set: .0000 .0000 .0000 .0000 .0000 .0000 .0000 .0025 .0050 .0125 .0250 .0375 .0475 .0450 .0350 .0225 .0100 .0025 SO his new stat spread is: . . . __25_ __26_ __27_ __28_ __29_ __30_ __31_ __32_ __33_ __34_ __35_ __36_ __37_ __38_ __39_ __40_ __41_ __42_ . . . .0100 .0200 .0500 .1000 .1500 .1900 .1800 .1425 .0950 .0525 .0350 .0375 .0475 .0450 .0350 .0225 .0100 .0025 The probabilities are now out of (1.25 * 0.98) instead of out of 1.00 because I don't want to go through and divide everything by (1.25 * 0.98). Yet. I'll do that at the end, since that's easier. So now, average it all together, and I get... (.0100*25 + .0200*26 + .0500*27 + .1000*28 + .1500*29 + .1900*30 + .1800*31 + .1425*32 + .0950*33 + .0525*34 + .0350*35 + .0375*36 + .0475*37 + .0450*38 + .0350*39 + .0225*40 + .0100*41 + .0025*42) / (1.25 * 0.98) = 31.7163 Or the easier way: 30.3163 + (7 * 0.20) = 31.7163 So I don't see anything wrong with just adding (7 * 0.20) to an average to take into account getting a robe 20% of the time. It's not like you have any kind of static numbers to work with. All you have are stat distributions like above. Do help me to understand what the issue is.

Which one is better? And by better I mean more useful.

eh? Spd/HP/Def is what herons need more than anything. I don't want my heron to kick the bucket when I make even one mistake. Also more defense gives me more freedom in strategy. Like "X would be able to go do Y beneficial task, but he has to stay back to keep HERON from dying", to simplify it. Effective 120% growths in spd and def would be a great help.

She's not killing laguz. She's helping to get items and/or kill Muarim. And not killing the laguz is what gets you that 1500 bexp. 1460 to be exact. Killing them is better, you say? Let's see. Each laguz not killed is 40 bexp, and there are 19 of them, and then you get 300 extra for not killing any, and then even more in turns since it of course takes longer to kill them all then to just go kill the boss. Chip damage? You can grab some of that, too. You only need to not kill them; attacking them is fine. So, by the HM exp formula, a lv 15 killing a lv 3 laguz dood gets 37 exp. 14 for hitting. Do they give less exp for being killed while untransformed in this game? I can't remember... Anyway, if they do, then that's less exp. If they don't, then this applies. 37+14 = 51. *19 = 969. 969 combat exp vs 1060+(more for turns) bexp. Pretty similar in sheer amount, but bexp is more flexible; you can distribute it however you want. So that way is better. It's not by a whole lot, though, so the other way is perfectly viable. Except for the fact that it takes longer and uses more resources (ie is less efficient). If you do opt to kill them, then that's just as good or even better for Jill since most of your team sucks at moving, so she'll need to be doing a large portion of the attacking in order to beat the chapter quickly. Oscar 'only' level 13? Well let's see. He has 8 combat chapters before Jill exists, some of which are super short, like 1 and 2. Though I suppose he's entitled to some bexp from ch 10 since he does help out. So like 8 chapters' worth of exp, or so, counting 1 and 2 as half a chapter each. And in that, 10 levels. That doesn't sound off to me. I'm not saying that Jill is one-rounding. And guys like Oscar aren't either. There is a lot that he can't double, and even on things that he does, he doesn't have enough atk. Jill has just as much power as Oscar (or 1 point more), but she doubles less. So that's about, 30% less damage output than Oscar. That's not bad. It's even a bit more than that since if she's not doubling anyway, she can opt to use a steel lance instead of iron. Obviously you won't always want to do that because of hit, but it's an option. Why did I mention Kieran? Why else? He's a good unit. Good units like Kieran and Oscar are what Jill needs to be compared against given her tier position. And yes, axes have the advantage over lances 2 times out of 3. However, they lose out by twice as much for the other 1 time. There's no advantage there. And oddly enough, the sword:axe+lance ratio in ch 13 is exactly 1:2.

wtf? Where are you getting me giving Jill all the kills? She would be lv hax by the start of ch 16 if that were to happen. No, what happens is that she's killing things normally, like anyone else, and you give her some of that 1500 bexp she helps you get from ch 15. Secondly, Jill's hit is no issue. lv 13 Oscar has a whopping 4 hit lead over lv 8 Jill. lv 13 Kieran loses to Jill by 2.

Note that doubling, even if you have 60% real hit, is much better than not doubling but having 84%. Both have an 84% chance of hitting at least once, but the former also has a 36% chance of hitting twice. So I would say that 50% and doubling is about as good. And the difference in hit between Gonzales and Lot is much smaller than that. When Gonzales has 60% real, Lot has about 76%. Assuming A Thany B Dieck for Lot.

I'm talking about Lalum route Gonzales.

No, I understand quite well that an attack needs to hit before it can crit. Tate has several things that she doesn't have going for her that Thany does. Tate joins at lv 8, so she need to put up with western isles axes for two more levels before she can promote, and even before she has promoted, Thany has D swords so she can use steel swords, while Tate will be stuck with E for a while. And she won't be able to use killing edges yet by the time you can buy them (she probably will have E swords for a bit longer, even), so she'll lag behind again. This lagging in sword levels means that she'll have to use the heavier lances in order to attack with a decent weapon, so she loses more AS, making her less able to double with killer (and it also slows her sword level growth). This higher AS loss is in addition to her lacking Thany's epically high spd--Tate has about 4 less spd--, so her AS is much lower indeed. She won't have a big part of what makes Thany awesome: ability to double superfast enemies like mercs. Also, she lacks Thany's epic supports. Klein? Zealot? meh @ them. It gives her nice defensive bonuses, though. However, her much lower spd and luck means her avoid is still lower than Thany's even if and when she manages to max both supports, and they don't give her any atk and give very little (5) crit, while Thany gets +4 atk and 17 crit. And Thany also has early game use. You remember quite incorrectly, then. Looking at the stats I posted, it should be quickly obvious that what you said is not the case. For his 83.9 hit to result in 50 displayed with WTA, the enemy would need to have 43.9 avoid. Lance-wielding foes he sees a couple of chapters later (in ch 13) have little more than 20 avoid. Around 22 or so. So that would be 72 displayed (84.6 real) with WTA. The axe-wielding fighters in chapters closer to his join time he doesn't get WTA on, but they also have less avoid. Like around 17, so that's 67 (78.5%) on them. For non lance enemies, later on, you'll be seeing more archers and pirates and the like, which have more avoid. However, he's fast enough to double most of them, while Lot is not, and he has enough power to 2HK, so he's doing very well against them.

Also, I like how everyone ignores res. The res difference is so huge that it's the most important defensive difference between Mist and Volke. More than all the other differences combined. Anyway, rundown on Mist vs Volke, sans stealable staves: early: Mist is healing, and Volke is, if we are to assume he's getting enough exp to be reaching 20/2 or whatever, being babied so that he can get kills and not die, which is not only taking a unit slot while not being helpful but is also taking combat exp from other units. And he helps you get a few useful items here and there. And I do mean a few. There's nothing worth stealing yet, and many of the items in chests are pretty garbage or can be gotten without a thief. There are indeed items left over after considering that, but it's not a whole lot. Mist >> Volke a bit later: Mist's supports are starting to help teammates, and she continues healing and stuff. Then she also promotes after a while, also gaining a horse and the ability to attack. She's very clearly better than Volke at combat at this point, as Volke is unpromoted and has only access to daggers (he has like 20 atk). And Volke is more of the same. He still sucks at combat, though he sucks a bit less now. Mist >> later still: Volke promotes, so he's just bad at combat rather than sucking: for a chapter and a bit of the next, he has no access to stilettos, so his offense is still pretty garbage. After that, it's acceptable every time he sees it fit to use up 2 of his 20 stiletto uses. As far as combat goes, Mist's horse, massive res, and 25 uses of massive rape whenever > Volke's... nothing, really. Then supports and healing (with few to no physics) vs Volke's very few items here and there (since staves are being excluded due to that being shared by both) even later: silver swords, horse again, gaining exp fater for increasing stat leads, and whatever's left of that h4x sword > Volke's nothing and same old for non combat stuff I don't see it. How is Volke better? wut? Healers are extremely easy to level

She gets doubled by Ravens only. I don't know where you're getting that idea from. Then every chapter after her joining one is very kind to her. ch 13: ship. She'll double only the slowest enemies, but others aren't one-rounding things either, and being able to fly makes her quite useful. ch 14 is full of slow things that even she can double. ch 15 is desert, so she's awesomely helpful whatever you decide to do. And by then, her underleveled + good spd growth has brought her spd up to an acceptable level, and all her other stats are awesome.

I guess he's fine where he is. But Gonzales... This guy is too amazing to not be high tier. Spd > hit, srsly. 16 Lot, B Deak, A Thany Killer Axe: 25.9 atk, 11.5 AS, 94.5 hit, 46.7 crit - - 45.9 avo, 39.4 hp, 12.2 def, 5.9 res, 30.9 critavo 9 Gonzales Killer Axe: 28.9 atk, 12.4 AS, 83.9 hit, 33.6 crit - - 32.3 avo, 45.3 hp, 7.7 def, 0.9 res, 7.5 critavo Gonzales has less hit and crit, but he doubles more and has more atk. He has less avo and def, but the hp lead helps some, and his defenses are pretty good as is. And he's better at not getting doubled by mercs and such. 19 Lot, supports Killer Axe: 26.8 atk, 12.6 AS, 96.8 hit, 47.1 crit - - 49.0 avo, 41.8 hp, 13.4 def, 6.4 res, 31.8 critavo 14 Gonzales Killer Axe: 30.4 atk, 14.9 AS, 86.2 hit, 34.0 crit - - 39.0 avo, 49.8 hp, 8.9 def, 1.1 res, 9.3 critavo doubling for more damage > hit He also doesn't get doubled by mercs and stuff 20/2 Lot, supports Killer Axe: 30.4 atk, 15.3 AS, 104.3 hit, 49.0 crit - - 55.0 avo, 51.4 hp, 17.2 def, 6.7 res, 32.4 critavo Iron Bow: 20/1 Gonzales, C Echidna, C Treck Killer Axe: 33.0 atk, 19.9 AS, 104.0 hit, 73.9 crit - - 58.0 avo, 59.2 hp, 14.4 def, 2.4 res, 21.3 critavo Gonzales >>>> in offense, no longer losing in hit and owning in AS and crit and winning atk, too. And he doesn't lose in defense. He also can cross rivers and stuff. 20/7 Lot Killer Axe: 31.9 atk, 17.0 AS, 108.0 hit, 49.7 crit - - 59.9 avo, 55.4 hp, 19.2 def, 7.4 res, 33.9 critavo 20/6 Gonzales, B B Killer Axe: 37.0 atk, 22.4 AS, 111.5 hit, 82.3 crit - - 72.8 avo, 60.0 hp, 17.7 def, 4.7 res, 33.0 critavo Gonzales is so fast that he may double even nomads, and though it's hard for him to hit twice, he likely OHKs with just one hit anyway. If he doubles something with 7 crit avo and 45 avo, his chance of successfully one-rounding with these stats is 86.6%. The only things with more avoid than that are things that are getting WTA on him. Even myrmidons he has a decent change of one-rounding, as they don't have that much more avoid. Change that avoid to 53 (43+10), and his chance of ORK is...77.2%. SPD + CRIT. He destroys everything. Except high avo bosses. He does need some hit to work with. Even with these stats, he easily one-rounds wyvern lords that you'll face several chapters later, and wyvern riders are a joke. And his defenses are excellent. Gonzales is pretty close to Lot early, getting better after several levels, and then he's made of w1n after promotion and on.

You do not advance with Sothe until the enemies have been killed. That's common sense.

11 levels, sir. Stealing gives almost nothing in exp. That might cover your 1 level discrepancy, leaving 10 more levels to go. That's either a shitload of bexp or a ton of fighting with his significantly-worse-than-Mia's fighting skillz. False. Sothe exists.

Enemies out of reach are not enemies next to the bishops...

What the hell? How is it not? When you go through chapters, you leave some enemies alive--and not ones on the outskirts of the map, either--because it's not possible to kill them? What are you talking about?

I thought it was obvious, but I was implying that you kill everything else except them.

I already went over bishops (the things he's stealing from).

Yes, pretty much everyone is more durable than Sothe. There is one very important difference, though. Can you spot it? ...Sothe's job does not require him to engage the enemy.

20/2 Volke? That's quite a lot of exp there, sir. About as much as using Mia as a primary team member from her joining chapter all the way to the end of ch 16. The first couple of chests he gets have no enemies near them. After that, the ravens that actually attack are gone, so there are no threats to him. If by chance he does get attacked, he doesn't get one-rounded, so he's still fine. Also you do still have chest keys, so especially for the last few chapters, if a chest is somehow too dangerous for Sothe to get to (this genearlly never happens, just wait a turn or two until your army has begun to advance past that part, and it'll be safe), use one of the keys you've accumulated. Yes, Sothe is worse, but not by much at all. Mist without high end staves that you need a thief for >>>> Volke without the utility of getting you said staves. Volke has little else to contribute. Mist, however, still has a lot to offer. Like the rest of the high level staves, normal staves, w1n supports, and being better than him at combat.