Reikken

I have no idea who this Rickard is, but Sothe doesn't need durability. He only needs to open chests and steal physics. Chests don't attack, and bishops have such crappy offense that you can have the rest of your army go around them, leaving them alive, and have Sothe come in and steal safely behind your other units, and they won't kill him even if you leave them alive for a turn after stealing. Hm? I can't say that I know what you're trying to say, other than that you disagree.EDIT: getting mages to unequip their long rage tomes is so much trouble that it's not worth it even if you have a nigh invincible thief

I agree that Volke is too high (his main contribution is getting staves---take those out and you can get most everything without him---...yet the highest unit who can even use those staves in the first place is below him? wtf), but he should only drop to about mid. Either that or Mist is too low. or a combination of both.

How is he awesome in Sacae? He takes about 9 damage per nomad, 15 from myrmidons, 20 from NTs, about 21 from magic, 26 from promoted magic, and 20-45 from wyvern lords, with no real chance of dodging except the silver lance lords (silver lance and axereaver lords). That's not good. I guess he can main iron bows so that he can counterattack the short bows with good hit. That can be pretty cool.

drop Lot, put Thany above, and then move him back up (ftw) Ward? I dunno.. His single-hit offense does get pretty good, but that spd... Even after promotion, he runs the risk of being doubled by mage/sages and wyvern lords, and he fails things that should be easy to double, like random unpromoted archers and the like. And doesn't just run the risk of being doubled by mercs and such, he gets doubled with no questions asked, and with his much worse def than Lot's, that's very bad. Even many of the pirates in like 14x double him, and knights are sometimes too fast for him. Like these 4-5 AS knights in ch 16, he can't deviate down on spd at all for. Also generals late game have about 8 AS, so he's cutting it very close there, too. Who would he go above? He may even be too high..

12/15 ~= 20/7, except for her spd. She's probably 20/12 by the end if she promotes at 20. and indeed. Ward is quite low on the list. I didn't want to include something that requires me to use someone bad Treck and Zealot? Treck has a much worse start (lower spd, lower con, E swords), so he's certainly worse. He does get to have +2 atk by late game, though, as well as +1 def. I don't think that's too helpful, though, as Noah's problems aren't atk and def after promotion. I guess he'll have an easier time 2HKing some enemies. I guess they're both still fairly close even if they are worse, so not enough to be in different tiers, unless Noah is at the bottom of the tier. Really, I think some of it is that Lot, while good, is a bit too high. by like 6 slots. Or at least Lot without a Thany support. With that, he'll be a good bit better. +7 hit, +3 atk for all of midgame. (+5 hit and +2 atk by when he otherwise gets C Echidna)

Indeed I did, sir. Or rather, I said that the tier list says that he sucks. Anyway, on to Thany. Thany has one very notable advantage on the likes of Bors, and Treck, Geese, Ray, and even Lot and Lugh. That she can fly? Well..yes, that's one, but not what I'm talking about. It's her promotion item. FE6 promotion items have typically have tons of competition, with you getting only 2 until quite a ways in and you having like half a dozen units who can use them. For the Elysian Whip, however, you get 3 of them, and there are only 3 potential candidates. What does this mean? It means Thany can promote whenever the hell she wants with no negative consequences at all. Even Rutger using a Hero Crest has the effect of making Lot wait. None of that for Thany. This is hugely awesome for her. For instance, you can promote her at the beginning of the western isles chapters so that she doesn't have to be stuck with lol-lances-vs-mass-axes and instead gets both swords and con she desperately needs. Oh and her supports are pretty w1n, too. Fast early supports with ~high tier units = awsm. And she's your only unit who can fly for 11 chapters, not that flying means something on every single one of them. k, with that in mind, who should I compare her to? hm... How about Lot? Hm,,, though... while that looks like an easy comparison at first, since they both join at the same time, supports get a bit confusing, as their best option is to support each other; and Thany is currently low tier, so normally Lot wouldn't be getting a Thany support, so he wouldn't have it for comparisons; but on Thany's end, Lot is near the top of upper mid, so Lot would likely be around to support her, so she would get a Lot support, and also get credit for making Lot better (and in so doing make him even more likely to be played), as without a Thany support, he can only support Deak and then wait around for Echidna and hope she's free. But then if, hypothetically, Thany were to be shown to be close to Lot on the tier list, then Thany would likely be around for Lot to support, so Lot would now get that support and also get credit for making Thany better. But actually, now that I think about it, that would only make Lot go up, not Thany down. I guess that should be alright, then. Ok. Well I already mentioned supports, so I'll start with that, though it should be pretty obvious by now. Conveniently for Thany, her best supporters also have her as one of their two best supports. And they're fast and start the instant she joins, in ch 2. So Thany gets nice supports, and her supporters (Dieck and Lot) are improved by her supporting them. pro 25 turns to C, 30 (55 total) to B. Not quite as fast as Alan-Lance-Roy, so she likely won't get Bs by ch 7 unless you try really hard, but it's pretty close. Lot has only one supporter, but he's awesome, and Lot supporting him makes him better. pro, though only half as pro as Thany's. Actually much less than half, since Deak does have other, albeit inferior, supports that he can go to in the absence of Lot, and while the same applies for Thany's Dieck support, for Thany's Lot support, he has no supports at all for a very long time that he can fall back on. So like maybe 3-4x as pro. (btw I just noticed that Thany and Lot have the same str growth) It's also worth noting that Thany gets more out of the body ring than pretty much anyone else. Echidna is the only other real contender. Tate if you use her. Hm. Echidna does get quite a lot out of it, too, though, what with all that axe spamming. +2 AS on axes vs Thany's +2 AS on everything. That's easily a greater benefit for Thany, but then again, Echidna's AS is borderline more often come late game,,, but the avo loss doesn't hurt her as much as it hurts Thany, and fast things she doesn't need axes for anyway. The only thing is that late game wyvern lords can be iffy for Echidna doubling with a killer axe. So yeah, Thany gets more out of it than anyone else. Her gain - the opportunity cost = net positive. Thany vs Lot. Who wins? 4 Lot, Iron Axe: 15.3 atk, 7.3 AS, 78.5 hit, 2.9 crit - - 16.9 avo, 29.8 hp, 4.4 def, 1.1 res, 2.3 critavo 2 Thany, Slim Lance: 8.3 atk, 12.6 AS, 95.8 hit, 8.0 crit - - 30.8 avo, 17.5 hp, 6.1 def, 5.2 res, 5.6 critavo Iron Lance: 11.3 atk, 8.6 AS, 85.8 hit, 3.0 crit - - 22.8 avo Unsurprisingly, Lot wins combat. He can double soldiers, which are extremely numerous in ch 3 especially, one-rounding them if they're lower-end on the hp/def. And while he has less def, he has like 12 more hp. Thany isn't without her advantages, though. She wins offensively against most things that aren't soldiers or fighters, though they're rare for now, and she can only attack archers if you're able to kill it or pin it in that turn. And on the soldiers that he doesn't one-round, he doesn't have much of an advantage since Thany does enough damage to leave anyone not Chad able to finish without taking a counter. And on fighters, he does ~12 at ~76% real, while Thany does ~8 (4x2) at ~85% real despite WTD Then he has less def but like 12 more hp and no bow weakness, so his defenses are a lot better. 2 crit avo can be annoying, though, as he faces real crit rates from some enemies. Archers, knights, RNG blessed soldiers Also Thany has flying/mounted. Rescue/drop, visit. ch 4 isn't too much different. Lot's defenses and atk are more important, and Thany's hit, and flying/mounted rescue/drop visit is more important. Lot still wins overall 7 Lot, C Deak Iron Lance: 16.2 atk, 8.4 AS, 80.8 hit, 5.3 crit - - 25.0 avo, 32.2 hp, 6.6 def, 2.6 res, 8.2 critavo 5 Thany, C Deak, C Lot Slim Lance: 10.2 atk, 14.4 AS, 104.9 hit, 10.8 crit - - 41.2 avo, 18.8 hp, 7.4 def, 7.0 res, 17.4 critavo Iron Lance: 13.2 atk, 10.4 AS, 94.9 hit, 10.8 crit - - 33.2 avo ch 5, things start getting better for Thany as far as combat goes and worse for Lot since mercs exist, which can double him, and he can't hit them. and forests make hit a real issue, and it's crowded and hard to move around, so Lot has more trouble finding room to attack at all. Thany's offense is better, but Lot's still owning in defense. Also, Thany with iron is as fast as Lance, soon to be faster, despite con issues. ch 6, yay soldiers and armors for Lot, yay mages and lots of need to ferry Chad around for Thany ch 7, Lot may hit B Dieck by now. Thany won't have Bs yet. And Lot wins combat. You get a killer axe, and only he can use it. w1n. Thany wins on mercs, archers (offensively only, of course), mages, and whatever cavs are holding swords, but Lot wins on the wyverns, soldiers, armors, and lance cavaliers, and by a lot more. 10 Lot, B Deak Iron Axe: 18.1 atk, 9.5 AS, 83.0 hit, 8.8 crit - - 33.1 avo, 34.6 hp, 8.8 def, 4.0 res, 14.1 critavo Steel Axe: 21.1 atk, 6.5 AS, 68.0 hit, 8.8 crit - - 27.1 avo 9 Thany, B Lot, B Dieck Iron Lance: 16.4 atk, 12.8 AS, 105.5 hit, 19.9 crit - - 45.4 avo, 20.6 hp, 8.8 def, 9.0 res, 29.8 critavo Slim Lance: 13.4 atk, 16.8 AS, 115.5 hit, 24.9 crit - - 53.4 avo Steel Lance: 19.4 atk, 7.8 AS, 90.5 hit, 19.9 crit - - 35.4 avo gonna throw in Noah here, too, and give him a Treck support even though it's iffy 8 Noah (no support yet) Steel Sword: 16.6 atk, 9.6 AS, 89.0 hit, 3.7 crit - - 26.0 avo, 28.5 hp, 7.6 def, 1.2 res, 6.8 critavo Steel Lance: 18.6 atk, 6.6 AS, 74.0 hit, 3.7 crit - - 20.0 avo Keep in mind Lot has exclusive Killer Axe access to keep the hit and AS of iron and get the mt of steel, and get +30 hit. Though it's limited, and he undoubtedly used up a good bit of it pwning in ch 7. And Thany's crit is notable, too. ch 8 has a lot of soldiers and armors, which Thany doubles even with a steel lance, tying Lot against them on offense for the most part. More atk/hit makes up for WTA. Armors and tankier soldiers require more atk, so Lot still wins since he can step it up to steel. Thany is better at killing everything else, though. Archers, mages, mercs. And of course, Lot wins defense. Except against the mages and mercs. Mercs may double Lot. Thany's avo is pretty good when not using a lulzsteel lance. Steel lance users in this chapter have liek 68 hit, so they would have <5% chance to hit her if she were to use slim. Too bad she can't have both the avoid and the atk at the same time. Offense: Thany. Defense: Lot. Noah unfortunately does not use an axe, nor does he have massive hit for using a steel lance and still having good hit. With no supports, he is clearly worse for the moment. From here, Thany can promote whenever you want. 8x joke chapter 9: 13 Lot, A Dieck --if not A, it'll be A soon enough, so whatever Iron Axe: 19.0 atk, 10.5 AS, 85.3 hit, 11.3 crit - - 41.0 avo, 37.0 hp, 11.0 def, 5.5 res, 20.0 critavo 12/1 Thany, B B Iron Sword: 17.3 atk, 20.4 AS, 128.6 hit, 21.8 crit - - 62.4 avo, 28.0 hp, 11.1 def, 11.8 res, 31.6 critavo Iron Lance: 19.3 atk, 17.4 AS, 113.5 hit, 21.8 crit - - 56.4 avo Steel Lance: 22.3 atk, 12.4 AS, 98.5 hit, 21.8 crit - - 46.4 avo 11 Noah, C Treck Steel Sword: 18.2 atk, 10.2 AS, 93.1 hit, 6.2 crit - - 30.0 avo, 30.0 hp, 8.2 def, 1.4 res, 12.6 critavo Unfortunately, E swords. 0% real vs axes, though, and somethinglow vs anything else, of which there is not much. And Thany doubles, while the other two usually don't. Noah vs Lot? Lot wins defense with his hp (and def), and Noah wins offense due to actually having decent hit. Also Thany's move lead matters a lot more now than it did since she has defense to use it. She doesn't even need her supports to face <1% real vs axes, and there's not much else in this chapter. Thany's also good at attacking bosses now. No C for killing edges, so she's not as good as Rutger or anything, except in that she can get to them before Rutger can, but pretty good since she has the massive hit and AS that most others lack. 10: pretty similar, but with more mercs. Worse for Lot, good for Noah and Thany as they have lances. Especially Thany as she can double them (!). Lot and Noah risk getting doubled by some of the mercs. There are a few archers (2), but not to worry as Thany can take a hit from an archer and a merc and still be alive. And they have ~32% real on her. Also Thany-A-Lot now or very soon. 11: more of the same. The fighters h4x a bit more due to jumping up like 3 levels, though, so Thany's leads matter more. Also you can use flying skillz + Lalum if you want to ferry some people over for a super shortcut, get to the villages in time, go shopping early (killer axes ftw), or whatever. 16 Lot, Deak Killer Axe: 22.9 atk, 11.5 AS, 87.5 hit, 41.7 crit - - 43.9 avo, 39.4 hp, 12.2 def, 5.9 res, 20.9 critavo Hand Axe: 18.9 atk, 11.5 AS, 72.5 hit, 11.7 crit - - 43.9 avo 12/3 Thany, supports: Steel Sword: 21.9 atk, 16.6 AS, 118.6 hit, 24.4 crit - - 58.0 avo, 28.9 hp, 11.3 def, 12.2 res, 37.8 critavo Iron Sword: 18.9 atk, 21.6 AS, 133.6 hit, 24.4 crit - - 68.0 avo Javelin: 19.9 atk, 15.6 AS, 103.6 hit, 24.4 crit - - 56.0 avo 15 Noah B Treck, C Fir Steel Sword: 21.4 atk, 11.4 AS, 102.5 hit, 12.1 crit - - 42.0 avo, 33.0 hp, 10.4 def, 2.8 res, 21.2 critavo Javelin: 19.4 atk, 10.4 AS, 87.5 hit, 12.1 crit - - 40.0 avo Noah finally beats Lot on defense if it's against axes. Thany beats both as long as it's not against bows. Offense, Thany. But Noah vs Lot? Hit vs crit 12x: Thany can double those pesky myrmidons and may double some thieves. 13: lots of lances is good for Lot. He has trouble doubling them, though, especially the wyverns (and paladins--no chance there). Noah is the same except he doesn't get to have an axe. 19 Lot, Dieck Killer Axe: 23.8 atk, 12.6 AS, 89.8 hit, 42.1 crit - - 47.0 avo, 41.8 hp, 13.4 def, 6.4 res, 21.8 critavo Hand Axe: 19.8 atk, 12.6 AS, 74.8 hit, 12.1 crit - - 47.0 avo 12/5 Thany, supports Killer Lance: 24.5 atk, 18.8 AS, 126.2 hit, 54.9 crit - - 63.6 avo, 29.8 hp, 11.5 def, 12.8 res, 39.0 critavo Killing Edge: 23.5 atk, 20.8 AS, 136.2 hit, 54.9 crit - - 67.6 avo Javelin: 20.5 atk, 16.8 AS, 106.2 hit, 24.9 crit - - 59.6 avo 18 Noah, A Treck, B Fir Killer Lance: 26.3 atk, 12.3 AS, 116.0 hit, 47.8 crit - - 52.0 avo, 35.2 hp, 12.3 def, 4.1 res, 30.4 critavo Javelin: 22.3 atk, 11.3 AS, 96.0 hit, 17.8 crit - - 50.0 avo killer lances ftw. Now even better at slaying bosses. Still not as good as Rutger or anything, assuming he promoted, since he has that lulz +30 crit, again aside from being able to get there faster. 14: lol desert (flying) full of axes (swords/avo), mages (res/hit/1-2), merc/heroes (AS/lances), and status staves (res. and flying/offense to go kill them ASAP). Thany >>>. Also wyverns (AS -- wyvern lords especially are hard to double). Noah's move sucks even more than Lot's. His stats are slightly better otherwise. 14x. Pirates! and water, and speedy swordies, and promoted mages throwing boltings at you. Looks like a job for Thany. Thany >> the other two, but Noah beats Lot at offense in general, and also wins defense against the pirates and mercs, while Lot wins def against the wyverns. 15: This chapter has the best enemies ever. There need to be way more of them, instead of only 2. I'm talking about valkyries. 8 move 18 AS mages ftw. 23 atk. They also have ~47 avo. Noah can be one-rounded pretty easily. Lot has too much hp/res to be one-rounded outright, but he'll have single-digit hp afterwards. The aircalibur one does a lot of damage to Thany if she doesn't dodge (not enough for a OHK, but pretty close), but Thany can double them, and the elfire one she pwns. Also loads of high level (lv 17-18) mercs with 16-17 AS, so Thany's massive spd comes in handy. And some 13 AS wyvern riders. Long bow archers that Thany doesn't really care too much about (86 hit, and they're weak for a bow), but also some silver bow snipers. Dangerous for anyone but especially Thany as they have ~30 atk with ~108 hit and don't die easily at all (44 hp, 10 def, 12 AS, 35 avo). Keep her from being attacked, and you can put her offense to good use against them. Lot avoids a 2HK because he's pro like that, but they're surrounded by mercs which may double him. Lot's defense > Noah's since Noah's getting doubled by those mercs, too, and there are no axes, but Noah's offense is considerably better. Lot's ~55 displayed hit on those snipers (and fail on the mercs) is saddening. Noah actually has hit and also has more attack. Even the cavaliers Lot has 75 (~88% real) on. They're fairly evenly matched, I suppose. 16: long range magic and status staves, mercs, fighters, mages, and armors. Not much that Lot wins against. Noah gets the WTA on the physical enemies, and Lot sucks at hitting everything except the armors. Everything else has liek 30 avo, except the mercs. Noah's offense >>, and he doesn't lose defense too much. Lot tanks those magic hits better, though, and this chapter has quite a lot. 20/1 Lot, A Deak, C Echidna Killer Axe: 28.1 atk, 14.9 AS, 98.5 hit, 43.8 crit - - 56.9 avo, 50.6 hp, 17.8 def, 7.5 res, 27.1 critavo Iron Bow: 23.1 atk, 14.9 AS, 113.5 hit, 13.8 crit - - 56.9 avo Hand Axe: 24.1 atk, 14.9 AS, 83.5 hit, 13.8 crit - - 56.9 avo 12/8 Thany, supports Killer Lance: 25.4 atk, 20.6 AS, 130.4 hit, 55.7 crit - - 69.0 avo, 31.1 hp, 11.8 def, 13.5 res, 40.8 critavo Killing Edge: 24.4 atk, 22.6 AS, 135.4 hit, 55.7 crit - - 73.0 avo Javelin: 21.4 atk, 18.6 AS, 110.5 hit, 25.7 crit - - 65.0 avo 20/1 Noah, supports Killer Lance: 28.9 atk, 14.9 AS, 122.1 hit, 49.2 crit - - 58.0 avo, 39.8 hp, 14.9 def, 7.3 res, 31.2 critavo Javelin: 24.9 atk, 14.9 AS, 102.1 hit, 19.2 crit - - 58.0 avo In case you were wondering, Lot and Noah didn't gain many levels because of the level cap and being unable to promote until after 16. woo, Lot now can have hit. Unfortunately all his atk disappears with it, as does his melee, but it can still be quite useful. And he doesn't lose the atk against wyverns and pegs. Lot's hp/def is now wtf high. He won't die to anything. His offense is much better but still lacking in hit. Noah's defense is quite high as well now, so he shouldn't have much issue there, and, as always, his offense is better, though it's not as notable as before. Unless we're going to Sacae. For Thany... her concrete defenses are now much worse by comparison except against magic, though you now have a delphi shield to throw around, and her avoid is pretty good. It's overall worse for sure, but not too bad. Lot's is overkill. And if you really need the avoid, more than you need offense, you can use an iron sword or slim lance (or that body ring) for 77 avo at the above level. Attack and then trade up a lighter weapon so that you don't sac offense, at least on player phase. Though even with a light weapon, her offense may still beat Lot's... Her atk has fallen behind, but her offense is still better because of spd/hit/crit. This picture doesn't change too much from here, in how they compare. Lot will get yet more def once B Echidna hits (if he's getting the support at all... He won't mind the loss in defenses too much if he doesn't have it, but he'll also be losing atk and hit). Other than that, Lot and Noah have quite similar growths, and all three have the same str growth, though Thany levels more slowly. L8r: 20/7 Lot, A Diek, B Echidna Killer Axe: 29.9 atk, 17.0 AS, 106.0 hit, 44.7 crit - - 67.9 avo, 55.4 hp, 21.2 def, 9.4 res, 33.9 critavo Silver Axe: 33.9 atk, 17.0 AS, 96.0 hit, 14.7 crit - - 67.9 avo Iron Bow: 24.9 atk, 17.0 AS, 121.0 hit, 14.7 crit - - 67.9 avo Hand Axe: 24.9 atk, 17.0 AS, 91.0 hit, 14.7 crit - - 67.9 avo 12/12 Thany, supports Killing Edge: 25.6 atk, 25.0 AS, 141.1 hit, 56.8 crit - - 80.2 avo, 32.9 hp, 12.2 def, 14.5 res, 43.2 critavo Silver Lance: 30.6 atk, 22.0 AS, 126.0 hit, 26.8 crit - - 74.2 avo Iron Sword: 21.6 atk, 27.0 AS, 146.1 hit, 26.8 crit - - 84.2 avo Javelin: 22.6 atk, 21.0 AS, 116.0 hit, 26.8 crit - - 72.2 avo 20/7 Noah, supports Killer Lance: 30.7 atk, 16.7 AS, 128.8 hit, 50.5 crit - - 64.0 avo, 44.2 hp, 16.7 def, 7.9 res, 33.6 critavo Silver Lance: 34.7 atk, 16.7 AS, 118.8 hit, 20.6 crit - - 64.0 avo Javelin: 26.7 atk, 16.7 AS, 108.8 hit, 20.6 crit - - 64.0 avo Hand Axe: 27.7 atk, 103.8 hit 21 def. I lol'd. Because that's totally necessary, especially with his 68 avo and 55 hp. Anyway, Lot and Noah can double some stuff now. Things that aren't ubermassively slow. Things that are as fast as just kinda slow they can double. Meanwhile Thany can even double NTs and SMs. Silvers are available, but unfortunately, Lot's crappy hit gets even crappier if he goes with silver. Noah fares much better in that regard, especially since he also has swords. Those flying doods also like to pack axereavers, which is especially troublesome for Lot. He can slap them with a bow on player phase, but he can't do much about enemy phase. If Ilia, and he manages D bows while still fighting pegs, he can OHK the unpromoted ones with a steel bow. On defense, Noah's 17 def is plenty enough. Thany's is lacking, but 80ish avo is quite nice, so she's not too bad off. l8r still 20/11 Lot Killer Axe: 31.1 atk, 18.4 AS, 109.0 hit, 45.3 crit - - 71.9 avo, 58.3 hp, 22.8 def, 10.0 res, 35.1 critavo Silver Axe: 35.1 atk, 18.4 AS, 99.0 hit, 15.3 crit - - 71.9 avo Iron Bow: 26.1 atk, 18.4 AS, 124.0 hit, 15.3 crit - - 71.9 avo Hand Axe: 27.1 atk, 18.4 AS, 94.0 hit, 15.3 crit - - 71.9 avo Steel Bow vs wings: 47.1 atk, 109.0 hit 12/15 Thany Killing Edge: 26.5 atk, 25.8 AS, 144.9 hit, 57.5 crit - - 83.6 avo, 34.3 hp, 12.5 def, 15.2 res, 45.0 critavo Silver Lance: 31.5 atk, 22.8 AS, 129.9 hit, 27.6 crit - - 77.6 avo Iron Sword: 22.5 atk, 27.8 AS, 149.9 hit, 27.6 crit - - 87.6 avo Javelin: 23.5 atk, 21.8 AS, 120.0 hit, 27.6 crit - - 75.6 avo 20/11 Noah does Noah have enough w1n for a killer axe? Maybe if he went Ilia. No if Sacae. Killer Axe: 32.9 atk, 17.9 AS, 122.9 hit, 51.4 crit - - 68.0 avo, 47.2 hp, 17.9 def, 8.3 res, 35.2 critavo Killer Lance: 31.9 atk, 17.9 AS, 132.9 hit, 51.4 crit - - 68.0 avo Silver Lance: 35.9 atk, 17.9 AS, 122.9 hit, 21.4 crit - - 68.0 avo Javelin: 27.9 atk, 17.9 AS, 112.9 hit, 21.4 crit - - 68.0 avo Hm, killer axe probably doesn't matter too much, actually. More avoid vs axes, but he has massive def anyway. I guess it's nice on wyvern lords. Lot can double any unpromoted wyvern rider that has a steel lance equipped, but he'll have some trouble with the faster javelin ones, and the killer lance ones and wyvern lords he likely won't double. So he can one-round the ones he doubles on player phase without any need for a crit. He still has to hit, though, and he loses his WTA with a bow, and iron usually isn't quite strong enough to get the job done, so he has to resort to steel. 109 hit - liek 33 avo = 88.7% real = 78.7% chance of not missing and successfully one-rounding on player phase. With a killer axe counterattack, that's 96.2%*37 crit = 58.5%. What's also cool is that if you have the luxury of being able to position him at the edge of the wyvern's range, he can counterattack javelins with a bow. And even if he can't double, he'll still leave it with ~16 hp almost 90% of the time. Half hp for the wyvern lords. Thany doubles all of them obviously, but she's is borderline on having enough power to kill a wyvern rider with a killer lance crit. Chance of pulling off a crit is about 75.5%. Chance of two, killing no matter what, is about 24.5%. So her offense is better than Lot's on enemy phase, about the same on player phase. At least against wyvern riders. Lot still loses against all other things that aren't generals. Even he doubles, his chance of hitting twice ~= Thany's chance of critting unless it uses a lance, and he doesn't have enough power to 2HK much anyway. Unless he uses a silver axe, in which case his chance of hitting twice < her chance of getting a crit. And that's on things he doubles. He fails on things he doesn't. Noah has borderline AS for wyvern riders but plenty of atk for 2HKing if one is a crit, no hit issues, and more crit than Lot. Not as much as Thany, though. So... his offense is probably pretty similar. Vs wyvern riders. Against other things, his offense is a bit better than Lot's, with his massive skl and +hit supporters. On defense, Lot is lol, Noah is beastly, and Thany has 80 avo with 4 AS loss and no WTA. She still needs to watch out for silver lance wyvern lords, as those do a lot of damage, and she can't dodge them too reliably (~12% real). And that's pretty much THE END. So Lot is pretty cool in the first few chapters. Better than Thany. His lead steadily drops off, until it probably doesn't exist by ch8. Then soon after that, Thany promotes and starts owning, and oddly enough, she wins by more and more the closer Lot gets to promotion, rather than the opposite as is usually the case with unpromoted units vs promoted ones. After promotion, it's offense vs defense. Oh, and Thany's supports are more helpful. Noah misses out on early stuff, and he gets beaten soundly when he first joins up, and then the western isles' mass axes gives him a good bit of padding, giving him time to build supports and catch up, and from then on, he's pretty solid, marginally beating Lot forever after killer lances/swords appear. That may still leave him worse, though, and it does assume an iffy support.

huh, I never saw this until now Excellent read. Much lulz were had.

I'm not really sure what you're talking about, but...Thany is apparently low tier (Thany < Bors? wtf), so that's pretty much out, and Tate and Treck (and Zealot and Noah) are lower mid, so they're all very iffy. So the other thing that might happen is that Noah supports Fir, and Zealot doesn't get any supports at all due to all his supporters sucking too much. I may do a Lot vs Noah in a bit. Or a Thany vs someone in lower mid

Far too optimistic. Alan and Lance switch weapons, yes, but they also double much more and engage the enemy more due to move, not getting doubled, and dodging. 1. Fir has other options? Like what? She usually just has Shin. Rutger's support is the slowest possible, and he has faster and much earlier supports. The move difference was already addressed; it's not a big issue. People don't run off away from the group in FE6 HM, unless they're Miledy or Percival. What is he losing out on by supporting Fir over Zealot? On the off chance that you do need him to do some running around out of range of Fir and when he would have been in range of Zealot, he'll just have lesser stats for that turn or two, as opposed to having lesser stats the entire rest of the time. And something like that is often not something he needs massive stats for anyway. And/or just do what Alan and Lance do with Roy sometimes: rescue/drop lolwhat? Do you not see that "Killer Axe" in Zealot's stats? It's already accounted for. and 6 atk isn't major? 7 atk and 2 AS (later) isn't major? and that combined with ~11 avo and 2 def. That >>> Zealot's leads earlier. Remember how Zealot's atk lead is 0 once Noah hits C Treck? except against lances, which pretty much DNE (do not exist) after ch 8 until ch 13. When Noah is midway through the time to promotion (see "14 Noah"), Zealot is winning by less than Noah is winning after promotion

wtf no. Alan and Lance have trouble getting D swords by then. Fir support isn't any slower. All three of Noah's supports are fast ones. +2s with 10 base. Zealot's Treck/Noah ones, too. The one with Tate is a 30 +1, though. Noah is better off in supports even bonuses aside. He can get full supports without needing Zealot. Indeed, he doesn't even want to support Zealot if he can help it. Zealot, on the other hand, wants Noah's support. That's a point in Noah's favor if Zealot is to support Noah. Noah is making Zealot better, and Zealot is making Noah worse. So I'll just assume they don't support for comparisons. Anywyz, back to Noah's supports. Like I said, the Fir support isn't any slower. And for chapter time, it's 3 chapters later. Not too bad. Move difference isn't good, but that's not too bad either, given the general layout of FE6's chapters. Noah's not running off ahead or anything. But yes, support bonuses with Fir will come a bit later. He should hit A at least by the time he promotes. C Treck by the time Fir joins. B Treck/C Fir by ch 12. B Fir by 14. Alternatively, A Treck by 14x or a bit earlier, which gives him +1 atk and 2 avo for 3-4 chapters at the cost of 3 avo from 16x-end. Well let's see. Hm. Zealot does have the advantage of being able to bust out the killer axes in ch 11-13, and 13 spd is pretty good for then... maybe he's better than I thought. 11 Noah, C Treck Steel Sword: 18.2 atk, 10.2 AS, 93.1 hit, 6.2 crit - - 30.0 avo, 30.0 hp, 8.2 def, 1.4 res, 12.6 critavo 2 Zealot, C Treck Steel Sword: 18.2 atk, 13.2 AS, 101.8 hit, 10.8 crit - - 33.6 avo, 35.8 hp, 11.3 def, 7.2 res, 10.2 critavo Zealot's atk is worse than I thought, though. lol. But he can still do this!: Steel Blade: 21.2 atk, 10.2 AS, 91.8 hit, 10.8 crit - - 27.6 avo, 35.8 hp, 11.3 def, 7.2 res, 10.2 critavo Zealot wins defense easily, and he wins atk or AS/hit, though not really both once Noah hits C Treck. He wins both before that. Also move. 4 Zealot, B Treck Steel Sword: 19.8 atk, 13.6 AS, 107.7 hit, 16.1 crit - - 37.7 avo, 37.2 hp, 11.9 def, 7.5 res, 15.5 critavo Steel Blade: 22.8 atk, 10.6 AS, 97.7 hit, 16.1 crit - - 31.7 avo Killer Axe: 22.8 atk, 13.6 AS, 102.7 hit, 46.1 crit - - 37.7 avo 14 Noah, B Treck, C Fir Steel Sword: 21.1 atk, 11.1 AS, 101.6 hit, 11.8 crit - - 41.0 avo, 32.2 hp, 10.1 def, 2.7 res, 20.8 critavo Steel Blade: 24.1 atk, 7.1 AS, 91.6 hit, 11.8 crit - - 33.0 avo still mostly axes, so swords are what they want to be using most of the time. There are a few patches of lance heavy action, though, and a huge one coming up soon in ch 13. Zealot wins offense by a lot against lances and things that have 8-9 AS or so. Otherwise they're pretty close. Noah can use steel blades and the like, too if he's not doubling anyway and needs more damage. Zealot's defense lead is shrinking but still there, and especially prominent vs lances. 6 Zealot, A Treck, C Tate Killer Axe: 23.2 atk, 14.0 AS, 113.7 hit, 53.3 crit - - 45.8 avo, 38.8 hp, 12.5 def, 7.7 res, 25.8 critavo Killer Lance: 22.2 atk, 14.0 AS, 123.7 hit, 53.3 crit - - 45.8 avo 17 Noah, A Treck, B Fir Killer Lance: 26.0 atk, 12.0 AS, 114.8 hit, 47.5 crit - - 51.0 avo, 34.5 hp, 12.0 def, 4.0 res, 30.0 critavo Hm, who wins offense? It's not so clear anymore. Who wins defense? That's none too clear either. Zealot's lead is now very small. Move and WTA on lances are his solid leads. 8 Zealot, A Treck, C Tate Killer Axe: 23.8 atk, 14.4 AS, 114.5 hit, 53.5 crit - - 46.8 avo, 40.2 hp, 13.1 def, 8.0 res, 26.0 critavo Killer Lance: 22.8 atk, 14.4 AS, 124.5 hit, 53.5 crit - - 46.8 avo 20/1 Noah, A Treck, B Fir Killer Lance: 28.9 atk, 14.9 AS, 122.1 hit, 49.2 crit - - 58.0 avo, 39.8 hp, 14.9 def, 7.3 res, 31.2 critavo Zealot is now getting his ass kicked, and it only gets worse from here out. Yeah, I stand by my claim of Noah > Zealot. The upcoming B Tate offsets the difference in growth rate for defenses, so that loss doesn't get any worse than it already is, but the offense loss gets worse and worse. "Zealot's whooping [Noah's] ass the entire time" up to promotion? Nay, sir.

I know Marcus is "usable" midgame and even somewhat for late. That's not the point. Please pay better attention. The point is that loads of others are still better, so your best course of action is to drop Marcus for someone better. Therefore, he is more useful if you are able to drop him once he's no longer good. He gained exp. So what? His replacement is more useful than him even though he gained exp. Or are you trying to say that there aren't loads of others better than Marcus from a certain point on? "this fundamental issue I see as more important than one unit's placement." Mm, not quite. Noah, for instance, at 20, before promotion, ties Zealot's base in spd and def, and loses in res, but the other stats are higher, notably str by 2 and luck by 6. Of course Zealot will have gained some levels himself, but this is before promotion. After a crest, he beats Zealot's bases in all stats save res. A lv 8 Zealot loses str by 2, spd by 0.5, skl by 1.5, luck by 5, wins res by 3 Of course, pure stats aren't everything. There are also supports, and indeed, weapon levels. Noah's base wpn lvs are pretty nice, starting with a C in swords. Unlike all the other cavaliers, who start with E swords and so need a lot of work before being able to use all those D and then C swords, he won't be lacking in anything (except in ability to use that silver lance) until he promotes, when his axe levels will be low. And then supports. Zealot's most viable options (none are very good, given current positions on the list) are Treck and Noah themselves, and Tate. Noah's are Treck and Zealot, and Fir. Fire-anima >>>>> dark-ice (and also Fir doesn't suck, especially with a Noah support). Well I guess dark-ice isn't too bad for Zealot, since he's lacking in crit avo and hit. However, it gives him no atk, while Noah is getting 3. So that str lead effectively increases to 5. And if we throw in a support with Treck for each, the atk difference increases even more. So Zealot's defense is pretty cool, but offense? not so much. Then, of course, Noah's growths > Zealot's, such that by near the end.. 20/10 Noah, A Fir, B Treck Killer lance: 31.6 atk, 17.6 AS, 131.9 hit, 51.2 crit - - 70.0 avo, 46.5 hp, 17.6 def, 8.2 res, 31.8 critavo 14 Zealot, A Tate, B Treck Killer lance: 24.2 atk, 15.6 AS, 132.4 hit, 54.0 crit - - 58.1 avo, 44.8 hp, 15.9 def, 9.9 res, 31.9 critavo Killer axe: 25.2 atk, 15.6 AS, 122.4 hit, 54.0 crit - - 58.1 avo

Soren and Rhys would be better. Especially Rhys. He would be tons better.

This "sunken experience" applies to units who stay on the team as well. It applies to every combat unit. ...And the fact that it doesn't apply to healers and dancers is another part of what makes them awesome and is why Lalum is too low. Yes, sometimes it may be beneficial to move farther than where your supporter can move and have nothing to do with someone attacking that turn, but that's a rare case, and stuff like that is the real reason for me adding "Even blank out a turn completely for no reason". It's already accounted for. For Lance and his move? Naw. Also, facing two enemies with a team of ten usually won't leave some of the party behind since you can just use the units who were more in the back to begin with to finish off the units who attacked and were presumably counterattacked by those who are in the front.

Yo, FireFox...

It's not that Wolt and Marcus and even Bors aren't fighting. They are. It's that the killing blows are going to Alan, Lance, Roy, whoever you're using long term, whenever possible. What do you have to gain by moving Alan (or whoever) farther ahead than the rest of the team when he has to wait for them to catch up anyway or else get himself killed? Moving deeper into enemy lines than anyone else, with no one able to back him up, will indeed result in his death. He's not invincible, especially early on and without supports. If someone just attacked something that was close and is left behind a bit because of it, then yes, it's expected that you won't be building supports with that unit that turn. That's why I subtracted out the turns spent attacking. Yes, this is the unit's supporter who did the attacking rather than the unit in question, but just the same, you have times when the unit in question attacks and the unit's supporter doesn't and so can spend that turn building supports. Not all attacks result in the attacker being left behind. Most don't. Losing the epic chapters means losing the entire reason Marcus is good in the first place. Zealt in upper mid? Naw. Noah, however... I don't see why he's so far below Lot, who he's quite similar to. Gonzales, too. Why is he below Lot at all? This guy is actually good. Like high tier.

He isn't 3 others. Anyway, this fundamental issue I see as more important than one unit's placement. Dropping Marcus means the exp you gave him is no longer being used, yes, but what does that actually mean? Nothing in itself. As was said, exp isn't what matters; stats are. We drop Marcus so that we have room to field someone who's more useful. If we had infinite unit slots, then yes, keeping him would be the best idea since he's certainly far from a liability even lategame, but we don't, and he's just not as helpful as other units are after those early chapters. We lose his exp, o noz! What's worse, continuing to block a unit slot and pour exp into someone who will give back little in return, or replacing him with someone who performs better from that point on (perhaps not better immediately, but overall, considering only from there on)?

No. Marcus's period of suck is fundamentally different from that of "everyone else", like OJ or Lilina. Marcus you can use while he's good only. The same cannot be done for someone like Ray or Treck. They have to be used during their "period of suck" before they can become good (or decent). The reason it makes sense to drop Marcus later is that his suck comes after the time he's good, so it's completely avoidable. You can avoid it, so you should. He's not all that helpful in his forced chapters (1-2 damage on ch 4's cavaliers, and he may get one-rounded by them if he gets attacked? Then in many other chapters, it's so crowded with so many units on the field, he has trouble finding enough room to even get close enough to attack, or else he may be displacing another forced unit), and Dorothy has a forced chapter of her own, too. Wolt supports are cool early on, since they'll get more hit and an extra point of def, though the supports with Wolt will be a good bit slower than the other ones (yet another support to build simultaneously) or else make them all build a bit slower; but later on they're losing atk power in exchange for def that they don't really need (they have extremely high avoid and respectable def/hp already), and also have a less manageable support. And by that I mean that it's easier to keep 2 supporters in range of someone than it is to keep 3 in range. They're probably actually worse off overall, considering how fast they max their supports normally. And then Dorothy has other cool supports. Other than Saul, there's also Shin and Clarine. Shin normally has no real options other than Fir, so that's a huge help to him. Clarine's isn't as w1n, but still nice: she needs all the atk she can get. Wolt is on a higher level, yes, but a lv 5 Dorothy's offensive stats are equal to those of a 6 Wolt, and her growths are better, so whatever lead he has is either negligible or doesn't last for any substantial duration. She starts beating him before promotion, but after promotion is when it's really clear. There Dorothy is beating Wolt in atk and AS by 2 points each, or more. Her offense is actually decent after promotion. Probably better than Deak's (offense, not application of offense, like in counterattacking) with similar atk/AS, more hit, and that raepswyverns thing she has going for her. A tiny lead early vs being clearly better later and having much more helpful supports is enough of a difference for Dorothy to be higher than Wolt by enough for her to be past the tier break at the bottom of low with Wolt still in that fail tier. No. She doesn't get OHKd, and she's not soloing. You can easily ensure that she has no chance of dying. Indeed that is taken into account.

Indeed. Calill would also be worse as she already has a high spd growth, and her def cap is low, and she suffers greatly in mag and luck.

Hm. Micaiah would be worse. She would never get doubled, but her def doesn't get that high because of terribly fail caps, and meanwhile, her offense and staff use suffers immensely. Her spd doesn't get as high as one would hope because of caps and promotion times, and her mag becomes utter fail. 10 at 20/1, 13 at 20/20/1. Without looking into it much, I say ditto for Laura. Not sure on Ilyana.

Ok, if efficiency, then ...what exactly? I'm not really sure how to word the question, so... Is it like we are assuming playing just about as efficiently as we possibly can, and gauge characters based on how much they contribute to that, or characters are ranked based on how well they would do were they to be used as a primary team member, or...? And if more in line with that second example thing, then is the rest of the team made up of characters that we would use in order to be playing just about as efficiently as we possibly can, or do other characters see use, too, and if so, how often? etc

"Marcus>Klein" is equivalent to "Klein < Marcus". And no, I don't think Marcus is high tier if he has to be used the entire game. It doesn't make any sense at all to do, but I don't see him in high if you have to do it. His defense is none too shabby late if he gets in on Roy/Alan/Lance support action, but bad offense is bad. I can see him being higher than he is now, though It's not. I'm not suggesting that she's mid tier or something. She's still low tier, just better than Wolt and the like. She is indeed 2RKing. She does ~10 damage per hit with an iron sword, and they have like 36 hp. No, Rutger may be better with it than Fir is with it, but that's because he's much better to begin with. It's much more efficient to give it to Fir as she gets much more out of it. Or to put it another way, 6 (Fir w/) + 7 (Rutger w/o) > 2 (Fir w/o) + 9 (Rutger w/)

I've asked this before, but since there have been about 7 months, nearly 3000 posts, and lots of relevant outside discussion, I think it's worth asking again. Before I join in, or if I join in at all, what are the goals for this list?

Klein's good parts <<<< Marcus's good parts. Klein isn't high tier either way. Actually, Saul would typically be getting 4RK'd by short bow nomads. It stays that way even if you make one or two of them a NT. And then he has a good chance of having enough spd to double and one-round. If a NT grabs a steel sword, then it too is eligible for being doubled. They have too much hp/res to be one-rounded even if he does double, though. Klein vs Fir? I've always seen Fir as significantly higher than Klein and never doubted that. That's with exp rank existing, though. So you have some kind of long-running argument? *scrolls up* The first thing I see is No. She doubles all or almost all of the fighters, by far the most common (most numerous starting out, and then there are several waves of fighter reinforcements). The zerker too. All but two of them have AS loss, and the alt weapons for those two give them a point of AS loss (hand axe). Combining all the shamans and non-ballista archers gives you 4 enemies. Then there are like 7 mercs, and everything else uses an axe except the ballista guy and the boss. One of the largest enemy types, pirate, wasn't included in that list. Over half of them have 5 AS loss. The ones that don't (poison axes) have ~11 AS. Also.. Indeed having Fir use it is a loss for Rutger, but that doesn't mean you pretend that she doesn't or can't use it. She benefits much more than Rutger ever would (he can double and dodge with a steel sword; he only needs it for the crit), so giving it to her is still a net positive despite the loss. The most efficient way to use her is to give it to her. How are you getting 13 AS, btw? That's base level Fir, and a base level Fir gets 60 exp for killing a lv 10, fairly typical of ch 9. Again, you'll have to do better than this, sir. 6 offensive units in ch 1, yes. 3 of which you won't be using later (one doesn't even gain exp off them) and so have no reason to give kills. It's a similar story for the rest of the chapters. Alan, Lance, and Roy need not all be 'lined up' at once. 3 turns of both next to Lance, and 3 turns each of Lance next just one of Alan or Roy makes for +6 support turns for each, and is spent over only 9 turns. Out of ~17. Leaving 8 turns where none of that's happening. ie the number of turns spent attacking (4+4) assuming every single attack is on player phase. He exceeds the quota very very easily. Now to reality: Make 40% of attacks on enemy phase, and even increase non-kill attacks by 2, and you have 6 turns spent attacking. Obviously not every attacking turn is impossible to build supports on, so make even just 1 of those work for supports, and you have ~12 turns for supports. 4 of all 3 together and 4 each of one of the two = 8 support turns per chapter with each supporter. Even blank out a turn completely for no reason, and that's 7-8. 7.33. It's 85 turns to A, but also 45 turns to B Roy, after which you no longer need to care about building supports with Roy and so can focus entirely on Alan-Lance. With this, it's just over 6 chapters to reach B Alan/Roy, which would be a few turns into ch 7. Factoring in that some of the earlier chapters (1, 2) are shorter, and later ones (lol ch8) are longer puts that more at the end of ch 7. Or more likely midway through ch 7 for one (Alan) and near the start of ch 8 for the other (Roy). Which correlates pretty exactly with my own experience, btw. Indeed Chad is not amazing at combat before Shin joins. And? Oh? I see.

Saying it's ridiculous without any reason as to why? You'll have to do better than that, sir. 12 level ups in nearly 10 chapters is possibly even low for Lance. 3 hits and 3 kills per chapter is enough for that, assuming same-level enemies. Granted they are often a bit lower level, but that still leaves a lot of room. 4 hits and 4 kills per ch if they're around 3 levels lower than Lance. And supports out of proportion? lol what? It takes 45 turns to get to B with either Alan or Roy. in 9 chapters, that's a mere 5 turns per chapter, when the chapters take like 17 turns each. No, far from blown out of proportion, Lance will soon reach A with Alan. That's 7.5 chapters for Chad, btw. Shin doesn't join at the beginning of 9. And this is also far from unreasonable. 3 hits and 3 kills per ch assuming equal levels gets him that much, or 3.5 hits and kills per ch if they're around 3 lower. Non combat unit doesn't mean he's not fighting---he usually doesn't have anything else to do, so that is indeed what he does---it just means that's not his primary function. Oh? Do tell why we should assume Marcus should be used in an inefficient manner.

Indeed. I would suggest using the stats that FE6 enemies have at the same point in the game, which is a bit easier to do, but I'm not sure how workable that is. As for other ideas... we could do something like... open up all supports and make them build faster. Act like all supports are effectively with top tier units, and have them build automatically, like a point every turn.