Redwall

Galeforce can be nice in Lunatic+ since it lets you not play half the game (this can be a Good Thing if you don't enjoy Lunatic+). It is superfluous for leisurely play, but not at all impractical.

^In other words, you simultaneously support and decry the inclusion of varying contexts?

Yes, perpetual-motion devices are not "disproven" in any rigorous sense; their existence would contradict the 1st and/or 2nd laws of thermodynamics, neither of which have been "proven" (though obviously the 1st and 2nd laws of thermo are almost certainly true). Otherwise, his general point stands. The only fields in which we can "really" prove things are the ones where we make the rules. For example, I can conclusively prove that there are infinitely many prime numbers. edit: also I wouldn't say Fruit Ninja is ignorant because of his beliefs, but more because of his attitude; I get the feeling he never read the PNAS article I mentioned.

I used to marry Chrom and Sully; then I got good at the game.

The focus has been on the Abrahamic religions because the original post specifically mentioned Christianity; that said, I also think discussion of Hinduism is appropriate for this topic.

Panne's probably the better recipient, but there can exist contexts in which Panne has already been drafted by someone else, causing a player's optimal choice among the remaining characters to be Lon'qu.

The goal of this tier list is ostensibly the same as the goal of Olwen's other tier lists: we want to minimize complexity-weighted turncounts while getting decent reliability. So if Sully saves a turn in a chapter with 4/5 complexity, then that would correspond to her saving 0.8 complexity-weighted turns. If Gregor saves two turns in a chapter with 1/5 complexity (0.4 CW turns), then Sully would have the advantage (0.8 > 0.4) if they had no other opportunities to save CW turns.

Maybe we should establish a set of complexity ratings before further discussing character rankings.

Yeah, I noticed that Maribelle and Lissa with unrestricted Rescue were in top, but what I'm telling you now is that most drafts I've seen tend not to ban Rescue entirely--they instead allow one use of Rescue per player phase, and that for this reason, the bottom-tier Lissa and Maribelle should be re-evaluated assuming a single use of Rescue per PP if you want your tier list to be relevant for drafting. I could see Henry in the upper part of mid just because mobility is so important and since if he needs to see combat, his Spd is the only thing that needs fixing. Can't see Ricken going above Miriel at best since he's kind of bad.

Ricken, Maribelle, Lissa, and Henry are all mid-tier material, I think. Ricken has use in drafts as a vaguely passable combat unit who can use Rescue, and can ferry people around in the desert chapters; Henry has use as a +Mag ferry for Anna since he can insta-promote to 8-move Dark Knight, and is also somewhat capable as a combat unit once his Spd is patched up; Maribelle and Lissa can be somewhat useful as your dedicated Rescuebot (the draft logs I've seen tend to allow one use of Rescue per player phase, so Rescue remains important in drafts without being game-breaking) in order to free up someone like Miriel to instead attack.

Bring some Rescue users and make sure to use them to keep Severa behind your allies, who will clear the way for her to talk to the NPC.

I don't think Cordelia is an hypocrite. She can use a Second Seal to become an Hero, though.

Tharja, for obvious reasons.

there's no one-size-fits-all answer; some people like grinding, and some do not. Perhaps you should first try playing without grinding and see how you like it, since you can always just grind if you wind up not enjoying no-grind Lunatic, whereas you can't un-grind if you later realize that the game may have been more fun for you if you hadn't ground.

Hmm, I wonder if Sully and Panne could make top tier. In addition to their solid combat numbers, they are both capable of learning Deliverer, which can replicate most but not all of what Galeforce does in the lategame, even in a one-Rescue-per-turn drafting environment. If playing with Galeforce, the earliest they can take a Second Seal is Ch 12; if playing without Galeforce, they can take the Ch 8 Second Seal and learn Deliverer before too long...but then again, the Avatars can also do this. Neither Sully nor Panne provides the unique earlygame contributions that Frederick does, but with few exceptions, the earlygame is not very complex. Sully also lays claim to saving one turn in Ch 3, one of the more complex earlygame chapters, assuming otherwise unrestricted deployment, while Panne doesn't have any unique contributions of mention. I could see them in either the lower part of Top or the upper part of the next highest tier. What are you planning on doing with Anna and Libra?

Well, that sounds pretty similar to how dictionary.com defines strategy: the science or art of combining and employing the means of war in planning and directing large military movements and operations. Being restricted to bows and/or Galeforce-skipping isn't necessarily fun (I certainly don't find it fun), but that doesn't make it any less strategic. .

Yeah, I decided to bring up your example again since I wasn't satisfied by your initial answer. It seems to me like if we view this tier list as a list for drafters of whom to prioritize, it would indeed make sense for all one million Marcias to be in one of the lower tiers, as there is no competition for her in a setting with only four players; the Marcias would always be drafted last. On the other hand, if we view the tier list as a list for an all-out LTC playthrough with no deployment restrictions, all one million Marcias would have to be in the top tier. Should the one optimal team (in terms of reliability and complexity-weighted TCs) be weighted equally as any other team? It's not clear to me.

I took a look at some draft logs just now and it seems like the most common ruling on Galeforce/Rescue is: Rescue can be used at most once per turn, and if Galeforce activates, the only action you may take is to use a healing item. Nonetheless, making separate versions of Lissa, Maribelle, Sumia, and Cordelia sounds reasonable. I have a question about the tiering framework. Suppose Marcia saves 50 turns. If a hundred Marcias existed, with the condition that you are allowed to field at most one of them, they should each get credit for 50/100 = 0.5 turns, right? If so, should we not be forced to place them below characters whose contributions are unique, but not as significant as those of Marcia?

is believing me~♥ (believing what about me? I'm not sure)

If this were Lunatic, I would definitely agree that removing Rescue changes the picture dramatically since the enemies are so much stronger; however, I would be very surprised if this applied to Hard. With the possible exception of Sumia, Rescue's impact on character tierings is only meaningful for the staff users and Olivia. In the absence of Rescue and Galeforce, the game will be won on the enemy phase, and is done most efficiently with a team that is small enough to reap the benefits of being EXP hogs while large enough to spread out quickly; adding this to Tonics, Pair Up, and Avoid-stacking will mean that the units you use in such a setting shouldn't have their chances of death changed noticeably by Rescue (although again, Sumia might drop since she's so frail).

Not necessarily; there are those who complain because they feel Lunatic+ is unfair and there are those who complain because they feel Lunatic+ is unfun. I think it's fair, but even with optimal tactics, it's not going to be fun for many people.

I could see this tier list being relevant as a rough guideline of which characters to prioritize in drafts adopting similar rulesets; but yeah, like you said, I don't think the goal of this tier list is to be of use in drafts that, say, restrict Rescue and Galeforce usage (which seem to be the norm these days). I dunno about Maribelle and Lissa being reclassed to Pegs...if one of them uses the C8 Second Seal, there's obviously an opportunity cost (Avatar), and by the time the C12 SS is available, the enemies will have become somewhat strong, while Lissa and Maribelle will have to deal with E-ranked lances. Additionally, getting them to Lv 15 Dark Flier will probably take way too long without favoritism that is better used on the top tier units.

yes, i am aware of fred's low res. you can simply kill it on turn 3 player phase after using turn 2 player phase to heal.

the bottom mage can have vantage+; it really makes no difference if your goal is to get avatar to lvl 5.

like Othin said, bows in particular are pretty nice. While 1-2 range attacks leave you susceptible to Counter during the enemy phase, bows do not; the complete absence of 1-range offense that makes bows near-worthless in Lunatic actually makes them worthwhile on tanky units like the Avatar. According to what I've read in the Lunatic thread, a bow-heavy team has less to fear with increasing numbers of Counter enemies since they will have only one dangerous skill.