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    Kirby's Return to Mafia Land - Game Over

    in Mafia

    Posted

    not feeling well atm so im not gonna make a serious post till tomorrow morning at the soonest.

    My immediate reaction to Randa's post that he didn't have problems with my case was that he was town but after thinking about it for 10 seconds I feel like it's something he would've posted as either alignment? If he wanted to wifom considering He Is Randa.

    The last time you thought like this we lost to a confirmed serial killer. i understand i have a history of really poorly planned out gambits, but when was the last time i made one.

    After taking a second look at how Randa responded to Freyja I feel like his indigence is at least genuine? I feel like he's scum caught for the wrong reason or town who thinks that the vote on him sucks, would lean towards the latter but I'm not too sure.

    so i have no idea what indigence means so i googled and apparently it means poor, as in impoverished. sb please define indigence

    2. Alignments were 100% ENGLISH fuck you autocorrect they were 100% RNG.

    what does this even mean

    Kirby's Return to Mafia Land - Game Over

    in Mafia

    Posted

    Refa reads as town to me,

    SB is close to town he isn't playing to his scum meta at the very least.

    half the game hasn't been very active, granted refa and i combine for a third of the total posts in the game but i would still like more activity.

    i need to reread mistuki and you to get solid reads.

    i have no problems with cam atm, dont think hes as towny as sb or refa dont think hes scum.

    clarinets is hard to read, just formating problems make the actual posts to read and considering i've quote walls with minimal content as town before idk if i can hes scum atm, i want see more out him though. i don't think i've missed anyone major at this point.

    formating change

    Kirby's Return to Mafia Land - Game Over

    in Mafia

    Posted

    so you were baiting him into voting you? why??? what would him posting not-an-OMGUS have meant?

    if what he said was scummy without question, why do you need him to clarify/post real content?

    i think the first point is simple, it means i would have an easier time getting a solid read on him, he would have actual content and something significant to analyze.

    to the second point i was far from 100%. more like 55-60% enough for me to need clarification. and he hadn't/ hasn't posted real content so i would like that to exist so i can have a better read, cause one scumslip isn't the end all be all of scumhunting. his reaction more than anything else is what makes me feel confident hes scum.

    The bolded seems really I'm gonna say bad. Made a good choice trying to case kirsche seems like something you would say to a scum buddy, not something you would say about a bad case. It's really bad. I don't know if it's misspeaking or a legit some scum slip, I'm inclined to believe it's the latter rather than the former.

    ##Unvote

    ## Vote: Ms. bunch

    Sunwoo, on 07 Mar 2016 - 3:19 PM, said:

    Randa: do you still find Mancer scummy, because I didn't notice until someone else mentioned it that you dropped your vote on him without much fanfare to go for Freyjadour. Why is what Freyjadour was doing at the time you voted him more suspicious than what Mancer had? If anything, that vote switch makes Randa look a bit shady. Also, what do you think about the rest of the game right now? I feel like you've had a bit too much tunnel vision on Freyjadour, and I can't tell what you think about anyone who is not Mancer or Freyjadour, which isn't good.

    in order that they were asked:

    yes however he hasn't had any content since i changed my vote so i see no reason to change my vote in the immediate.

    I think i've explained this one i can give you the post numbers in a couple minutes.

    Refa reads as town to me, SB is close to town he isn't playing to his scum meta at the very least. half the game hasn't been very active, granted refa and i combine for a third of the total posts in the game but i would still like more activity. i need to reread mistuki and you to get solid reads. i have no problems with cam atm, dont think hes as towny as sb or refa dont think hes scum. clarinets is hard to read, just formating problems make the actual posts to read and considering i've quote walls with minimal content as town before idk if i can hes scum atm, i want see more out him though. i don't think i've missed anyone major at this point.

    Kirby's Return to Mafia Land - Game Over

    in Mafia

    Posted

    I'm very disappointed that most of the game decided that rolespec serve nothing when i think it do really matter but it will serve nothing to complain about it the whole game. (i think i will do the list that mitsuki did, tough a bit later)

    I must admit that the whole ms. Bunch vs randa argument is really confusing me. My guts feeling are telling me that randa posting style seem weird but on the other hand it's true that ms. Bunch have no content until know so it's really hard to judge.

    I think most people (including me) should post more content so we can have other point of view than this case that seem to turn around on itself without producing anything except overly convuloted and long post from randa that could very well hide scum intention.

    there not convuluted there literally just whats going through my head.

    Kirby's Return to Mafia Land - Game Over

    in Mafia

    Posted

    This one, on the other hand, I really don't. It's a gigantic post about the evils of rolespec despite the fact that nobody was really doing it any more and there are more important things to talk about. The vote on Mancer at the end just looks tacked on. What about the rest of the wagon? "The Izhuark vote is fine", then proceeds to vote him over it???

    sorry didn't notice this part earlier my bad. anyways the mancer vote had very little to do with the izuhark vote itself. the problem i have is when i compare his cases on izuhark and blitz, his blitz case feels like it had more conviction to it, granted thats not saying much i do think the case itself seems forced but the izuhark case is just sheeping what other people said. now the way i formatted that post was actually kinda bad, because i wound up looking at all three parts in a vacuum ignoring the context of the rest of the post until the last line in the izuhark paragraph. basically what im saying is if the izuhark vote existed on its own without the blurb about blitz in the same post above, which is how wound up writing that post, then it was fine. now when i said the vote was fine i did specify given the time it was made. if it was made as the 4th or 5th vote on the wagon i wouldve had a problem with it, but like i said i think that truly started the wagon. now put in the context of the post the izuhark vote feels weaker, predominately because he seems to have more conviction in his blitz read.

    as for the rest of the wagon, i didn't, still kinda don't, feel like reading through a quote wall to see what clarinets justification is for his vote i will get around to it soon, ie during my next class when im bored, and michelaar looks like normal newb town imo.

    Kirby's Return to Mafia Land - Game Over

    in Mafia

    Posted

    I really like this post, wouldsheep/10. This one, on the other hand, I really don't. It's a gigantic post about the evils of rolespec despite the fact that nobody was really doing it any more and there are more important things to talk about. The vote on Mancer at the end just looks tacked on. What about the rest of the wagon? "The Izhuark vote is fine", then proceeds to vote him over it???I actually am not as huge a fan of this post as I was when I first read it; the logic is fine but i feel like it looks like it's saying more than it is. Like, can I have some examples of what exactly you're talking about? I feel like I'm psyching myself out when it comes to Mitsuki. It's like the Prims factor, I have no idea what to look for.These two make an interesting pairing. I don't like Freyja's post because it doesn't address the core issue with his initial vote and continues to dodge the fact that there are players on the izu wagon. At the same time, Randa immediately jumps on him for a pretty graspy reason. I disagree with Refa when it comes to "scumslips don't exist", but I also don't think this was really a scumslip.Immediately followed up by Freyja's best inactive!me impression with a waddayaknowit OMGUS. Like, come on, you didn't even try. "He's scummy because he's voting me for a bad reason". "It could arguably count as scummy..." - there's no conviction here whatsoever! What happened to your read on Izhuark? Why are the only two people that matter the current wagon target and the person attacking you?This is a fair enough justification from Mitsuki, although I don't quite see why it didn't need to be said immediately. It's enough for what I was looking for, I suppose? Still wary.##unvoteThis is... okay, I suppose. Except it's apparently actually a reaction test.##Vote: RandaRanda: What, exactly were you looking for in his reaction, and what would it have meant? "Making content" is a vague blanket term.my head hurts too much to get into clarinets' last quotewall

    Generally I was looking to see three things with the vote.

    The first is the obvious did he mispeak and mean the case was bad and then have him elaborate on his kirsche and izuhark reads. I stated this one earlier but this part wasn't the actual reaction test this was just to see if he made a mistake and then whether or not he would be willing to give his opinion in greater detail about the situation, FYI he didn't, hasn't and probably won't do this one. His response rather than clarifying that he mispoke or that his wording was wrong and that he meant something else was to say I'm misinterpreting his wording and misrepresenting him. Which isn't the case in the first place and doesn't answer the question.

    The second thing I was looking for was pretty simple and gets closer to the reaction test itself, when most people are cases and voted against especially day 1 they have the tendency to go and look through the other persons content to see if they can find flaws and inconsistencies to invalidate the case. Now my thought process at the time is as follows,

    "His post seems off"

    "He doesn't have a lot of content about anything and what content he has isn't very good"

    "I made a large post recently"

    "I'm not a good player so there's bound to be mistakes and problems with it"

    "Let's see if I can get him to actually post some in depth content about my post or play in general"

    Unfortunately he give any in depth content or actual content at all just an OMGUS and has proceeded to tunell since.

    The third part isn't so much focused on him as it is the game in general, did people agree with me about his wording(from the sounds of it no) and why or why not? So where as the first two are for actual scum hunting purposes this part was more to help me become a better player by seeing and understanding other people's opinions thoughts and explanations, hence why I was so focused on hearing refa's explanation for disagreeing with me.

    I apologize if any of this is confusing I am still a bit rusty and have no problem clarifying what I said.

    I've been reading but I have school. I'll probably make an update post during my lunch period today.

    As a whole, I can probably say that my vote on Randa was made based on how he misinterpreted my words. However, since he said that he was trying to prod me for new content, I'm slightly confused? Why would you misread something and ask for content instead of just inquiring? It means that he wanted new content out of me even while casing me, or he purposefully misinterpreted what I said for the sake of prodding.

    I'm not misinterpreting what you said, I'm not misrepresenting you. What you said was scummy, sorry that's all there is to it. I don't know why you keep saying I'm trying to misrepresent you when I haven't once done so. You said you didn't think it was a good idea to case kirsche, you didn't say that the case was weak, you didn't say why you thought his case was bad, you didn't say you thought there wasn't enough to make a solid case or argument. You just said you didn't think it was a good idea which IMO is scummy. Stop acting liking that's not what you said, I have not once lied about what you said so stop its getting annoying.

    You have plenty of material to make a real case, you have to people to agree with on the case, you don't even have to actually think you can sheep, but at the very least stop acting like im twisting your words. You can disagree with the read I got from it sure. There's no problem with that. You're not even doing that your trying to discredit my case without using actual facts or reasons.

    [Game Theory] ITP's and general balance

    in Mafia

    Posted

    So the title should say it all. I'm beginning work, for like the 7th time, on Gunnerkrigg Court mafia, seriously I gotta stop losing the spreadsheet for this, and I've run into a bit of a problem. The games gonna be anonymous, so <15 players, but I want to include an itp. The problem is TNM's itp was horribly underpowered and looking back I'm not sure what I would change about the character that would put it in a good position without it just stomping town and maf.

    So I'm asking the general mafia sub forum a few questions. Note these are all opinion so just say what you think.

    What is the minimum number of players in a game that makes it viable to add an itp without breaking the game?

    Which type of itp is the most fun to play as and against?

    Do you even enjoy having an itp in the game?

    Do you think roll madness games are more fun or better balanced than games with a large number of vanillas?

    Would you ever like to see a cowboy bebop type roll again?

    Kirby's Return to Mafia Land - Game Over

    in Mafia

    Posted

    Then explain why please.

    Also not a defense, just a statement. If there was an actual case I would make a defense, if there was a disagreement I would ask for his opinion and have a discussion. It's just an OMGUS it adds nothing and there's nothing to comment on from the post.

    Now to defend my opinion on the wording or more appropriately to explain it since I might have done a poor job doing so at first. The major problem is the wording which should be obvious based on my post when I voted. The most important part about this is that town has no reason to ever say I don't think it was a good idea to case someone. The reason is it looks like he's trying to discourage cases with limited basis which is anti-town particularly early day 1. And as I said earlier it reads to me as scum interaction. The initial vote on him was more to see how he reacts, which it seems non-committal and weaker then my mancer case. The reason I wanted to see his reaction is because none of his posts had any real content in them so I wanted to make him make content. I wouldn't have had a problem switching votes if he made an explanation of the situation and given an actual fleshed out opinion on kirsche and izuhark, made any content on why he thought a wagon formed so quickly or even made a point breaking down my larger post and why it was bad, which I'm sure it was I'm not eury. The problem is his response didn't do any of that. It misinterprets my case whether intentional or not, and doesn't actually respond to any of my points. His post where he actually votes me doesn't discuss anything scummy about my actual play, his vote also has no real conviction behind it IMO.

    It arguably could be considered scummy tbh, because it could count as twisting words.

    That's verbatim, that's not taking it out of context to strengthen my point that's his main justification for voting me, which didn't happen might I add until to you brought up that you thought I was scum or at the very least that my read was wrong. I he thought I was manipulating his words he would have voted me for that in his initial reponse but he didn't he waited till he saw there was the possibility of a wagon building against me, which makes me more confident he's scum.

    I would like to hear your opinion on what I've said though.

    Kirby's Return to Mafia Land - Game Over

    in Mafia

    Posted

    I don't agree with scumslips on principle.

    That doesn't answer the question. Do you or do you not believe the wording was scummy?

    As a response to who I think wagoned, mainly Clarinets. It didn't have much substance behind it and it came after Refa and SB already had votes upon Izhuark.

    I think Randa's case on me was created based on flat out misreading what I said. It arguably could be considered scummy tbh, because it could count as twisting words. In all, it was some flimsy reasoning that relied on me actually saying that it was a good idea to case Kirsche, and it didn't take much effort to claim.##Unvote

    ##Vote: Randa

    This is a pure OMGUS vote.

    Kirby's Return to Mafia Land - Game Over

    in Mafia

    Posted

    I exactly think the wagon's formed too soon. Trying to make a choice on someone within 24 hours is a mistake, and Izhuark had 5 votes out of 8.

    I don't think Izhuark made a good choice by trying to case Kirsche this early, but I also think that it doesn't mean that he's automatically scum. A few players haven't even posted yet. That's also what I meant by "did something" in that he was the only one forming a case with all of the rolespec happening. It's important to figure rolespec out, but it doesn't mean everything else should be obscured.

    I also think that trying to arrange a role list is easily failed. It can lead to a scum giving the worst role to the towniest player first. If they gave the best role immediately, it could also lead to mistrust.

    The bolded seems really I'm gonna say bad. Made a good choice trying to case kirsche seems like something you would say to a scum buddy, not something you would say about a bad case. It's really bad. I don't know if it's misspeaking or a legit some scum slip, I'm inclined to believe it's the latter rather than the former.

    ##Unvote

    ## Vote: Ms. bunch

    Kirby's Return to Mafia Land - Game Over

    in Mafia

    Posted

    ##Vote: SB

    Great, deadline is at 3 am for me. Definitely not missing that.

    We'll have to more or less come with a decision at least 3 hours before that, because not only do I go to sleep way earlier, but I have my browser programmed so that it stops letting me access some websites (including SF) at some points, including 3 hours before deadline, so that I don't waste much time and I go to sleep early. I could technically remove that but what would be the point, if I set that kind of stuff and then removed it the first time it's slightly inconvenient for me.

    Oh and I have an exam the 16th, I know that's pretty far away but I always hope I'm nightkilled early and it never happens. Just so that you know that I will be less active around 5 days before the exam.

    I also have my browser set so that it prevents me from accessing SF at certain times during the day so I'll probably post walls. I know you all love walls.

    Actual content:

    Whoever gets the vig should be shooting in the next phase/relatively early (depending on the ratio of town/scum lynches we have) or be lynched. This is so that we make sure they're not scum saving the shot to make it easier to win lategame.

    I mostly agree with Blitz with regards to roles to give, but I don't think bomb is that useful. I'd also prefer giving the towniest people roles that are scummy in nature, like ascetic/empowerer, just so that scum don't have them and they don't nightkill our good roles.

    And finally, I'm self proclaiming myself as cleared because my PM is exactly the same as the sample PM in the OP. That is kind of a joke, but I thought it was worth mentioning. Unless we all are Kirby for some reason.

    The bolded is more important than people probably realize. Vig needs to be given in one of the first 3 roles in my opinion. It needs to be given to the best townish players. Not necessarily the towniest. The towniest player may not fully utilize the roll which is why I believe it should be one the best towny player. I'll go more in depth on why I think the shot should be expended early in a minute.

    Good, Izhuark is also town, even if scum are definitely also Kirby. As scum I don't see him posting that, he'd be afraid of making some sort of mistake. His second post is also townie because the idea is townie and good. Again, as scum I don't see him posting like that.

    I forgot to mention this, but I don't want you guys to argue against my townreads either unless they contradict your reads. You can ask me to explain them better, I know a lot of the time it's hard to understand why I think a certain thing is telling.

    Man I want to case someone already.

    Sorry can you just explain the izuhark read a bit, is a legit read if so is it just because of the role pm thing, cause I'm not seeing anything towny or scummy about him ATM.

    All these "can't be roleblocked or redirected" look suspicious, because I see no roleblocking or redirecting roles anywhere. Must be the Mix roles. Anyway,Archer - Scummy. Not being able to watch kills makes it less Townish than it usually is, and the Ninja effect makes it good for scum.Beetle - Townish. Scum should mostly be lynched so Townies are more worried about being shot.Echofinder - Townish. Aside from the one-shot JoaT network, only the Mafia really suffers from lack of OC. In fact, this should be the safest role to throw around because it can't be used against the Town if scum gets it.Mayor - Kinda scummy? Not being able to change the placement of the extra vote during the day makes it harder for Townies to use it right. Scum could get pretty dangerous near endgame if they have this role.Jack-of-all-Trades - Leaning towards Town. Comp Cop and Commute are pretty useless for scum, but great for Town. Safeguard seems more useful for scum in this setup, since there doesn't seem to be many roles that inflict negative effects here.Insomniac - Townish. This is also something that the Mafia can't really exploit if they get it, because all they can do is talk more.Vigilante - Either; leaning towards Scum. Both sides can make good use of this, but it's especially more dangerous in the hands of scum.Ascetic - Scummy. Not many roles inflict negative effects, so this wouldn't help much for Town. Scum benefits from bypassing the Cop and Tracker though.Bodyguard - Townish. Scum really can't benefit much from this because even if they protect a fellow scumbuddy from the Vig shot, they'll still lose one of their own.Empowerer - Useless. No roleblocking or redirecting roles here.Tracker - Townish. Information is good for Town since it can track killers, catch lies, etc. Scum wouldn't be able to utilize it quite as well, I think.Mix - Unknown.We should delay distributing the roles that are scum-oriented since Town wouldn't make much use of them. And we should be careful about allocating roles that would work well for either side, since we don't want scum to get them (especially the Vig). And yeah, we should give the Mix to Townish players since we don't want to risk letting the Mafia lying about their effects.

    See this is why i enjoy doing role spec as anti-town, it doesn't say anything about alignment and you don't have to commit to reads. It just creates the appearance of content. With that being said this post is non-indicative of alignment it's just not useful. When I don't care earlier I didn't mean I don't care about whether or not we rolespec. I meant I don't care who was what roles. We don't need to talk about this and it should be obvious why. There's a role that goes to the scummiest person three roles focused on the towniest people and the rest aren't as important. In a 15 person game you should have a 4-6-4 set of reads. This means about half the game is gonna be closer to neutral then anything else. Reason is we know we have a confirmed 4 anti-town, every person except scum know they are town. 4 town reads means that if you're right you have endgame control. You're scum reads should be who you're willing to lynch that phase. It can be less than, but if it's only 1 or 2 people it's bad. The town reads should increase the less anti-town there is in the game. The longer the game goes the less neutral reads you should have but this early in the game the majority of players should be neutral. So why am I wasting time explains vote and read theory? Because it gets my point across. If we have solid reads on only half the game why are speculating how we're gonna assign every role. Any post about role spec should be nothing more than the roles we can't under any circumstances let scum have and which ones we want on scum. In addition it comes down to each players opinions and reads as to who is scummy and who is not. For example let's say proto has mitsuki as his top town read, but five people have a minor scum read on her. Who gets to decide what proto gives mitsuki, it's proto so mitsuki would get a towny role but this now makes five people read proto as scum cause he didn't listen to them but stuck to his read. You see the problem here. We're putting people in potential lose-lose situations. If proto gives mitsuki a scum role he goes against his read which is scummy, if he gives her a town role he's disobeying the group and that's scummy, regardless proto looks scummy.

    tl;dr: we don't and shouldn't be rolespecing right now.

    ##Vote: Protofor trying way too hard.Unless echofinder counts as a kind of roleblocker then kek at the empowerer. I'm guessing mystery roles have something to do with it.Do mafia win just on parity? I mean, if it's 2 v 1 going into the last night but we have a bomb who guesses correctly, do we win? If so we should save the bomb as a last resort. Early warning that there's no mylo/lylo announcements but who am I kidding we're still probably gonna fuck it up.

    Bolded is the point I was referring to earlier when I commenting about Vig. If mafia wins with parity, which it is confirmed they do, then there's no reason to hold the shot. Since we don't have to hold it we want to expended it early. The reason is the Vig is decided public ally so mafia's probably gonna just kill him.

    Yeah I agree that we should do a list of person we should assign the roles to before the deadline but i think we should wait a bit that everybody posted actual content before doing so.

    Also i think what Rainbow meant by delaying was to distribute them last because it's more easy to decide who we are giving towns role to rather than scum rules.

    What are you doing kirsche ? I really don't get your point. Are you doing that just to get us out of rvs ? Because this is a really bad way to do so. If we don't know how to assign role at the end of D1 the game will have much more chance to be scumsided. On the other hand if we assign role smartly we will have the upper hand for the whole game.

    ##Vote : Executive Kirsche

    Seriously this kind of comportment is at least anti-town.

    There is one bad way to get town out of rvs and that's fake a cop result of scum and get doc lynched day 1. Also what is worst than anti-town? You say it's at least anti-town but the entire point is to kill anti-town. There's really nothing worse.

    Kirsche, you make it sound like my post was an attempt to contribute in order to look Townish. I'm not. I was trying to analyze all the given roles and make suggestions for twilight phase, because I think role distribution is much more important to the game than Day 1 scumhunting (ftr I've always hated Day 1 scumhunting). I don't really care if you think I'm scummy for that, and no, I'm trying to pretend like my listpost is Townish so that people think I'm contributing. Go ahead and get me lynched if you want, but we should all still strive to optimize twilight phase and that's what I want to focus on.Also, when the hell did I imply that JoaT should be saved for last? I said we should delay allocating scum-sided roles, and listed JoaT as leaning towards Town.Anyway, I also think stuff like Echofinder and Bodyguard should be assigned to players that are hard to read, since even if they're scum, they can't hurt the Town much with those roles.I think Mayor should go to the most Townish player, because imo it has the greatest risk in the hands of scum (we can lynch the Vig if they save their kill for a suspiciously long time). On that note, Prims, will the Mayor vote be revealed during the Day Phase votals? Or at least in the votals at the end of the Day Phase?

    I actually really want the answer to bolded. In addition day 1 scum hunting is more important then day 1 role spec IMO. See the above for the explanation.

    I think Spear is important for town, because why would scum want to bodyguard someone when they'd likely be one of the ones targeting someone else.

    Bomb needs to go to a townish person or else it could be very easily misused. It would be almost catastrophic.

    The other roles might be able to go either way idk

    And this is why role spec is useless. I don't agree at all that bodyguard should be given to town. It should be given to scum as it makes one of the scum not have a role. Me disagreeing doesn't give me any reads though it just means I disagree which doesn't help with reads at all.

    Okay, I just got home and am a little bit overwhelmed reading the thread so far up to now. I don't really have a lot of lasting reads on all of the players because of all the speculation on what to do with the roles and such.

    On this note, I dislike this post by Blitz encouraging players to engage in rolespec. However, I can't say that I see the scum intent behind it because it does seem like an attempt to generate discussion. The later part of the quoted post where he mentions that someone else should start the discussion seems like an attempt to fly under the radar while other players lead the discussion on.

    This post makes me feel rather confused about what he could be planning though. On one hand, he makes a logical point. On the other hand, the point that he makes seems like a pretty obvious one and can be easily made by anyone. I'd like to hear more about your intentions behind the role speculation and whether you have obtained anything of note from the role discussion so far.

    Also, [url\http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=61695&p=4266676%5DThis[/url] is a brilliant analysis of the roles that can be distributed.

    Regarding the idea of deciding who to give what roles to: I don't think this is a good idea for a few reasons. Firstly, it wastes discussion time that can be spent scum hunting. Secondly, if scum is lynched, that scum can mess up the entire plan. Remember that the lynchee is the one that distributes the role during the twilight phase. Since we should be trying to lynch scum, it is highly probable that any plans we make will be messed up by the role assignment. I think that we should just let the lynchee decide (based on his own judgment) who to distribute the roles to and leave it as that.

    ##Vote: Izhuark

    For one, I don't like his vote on Kirsche. It sounds rather... awkward and forced, in a way. I don't feel his conviction behind the vote as well, especially in the last line where he makes a mention that "[Kirsche's post/action] is at least anti-town".

    What kind of anti-town do you mean? How do you see Kirsche's post/vote as anti-town? Do you find Kirsche scummy as opposed to just being anti-town? What about considering the fact that Kirsche might just be town with a different idea/outlook?

    I don't really like this post. The points about blitz feel forced. It would be fine if he made the points immediately after blitz posted but because blitz stopped posting shortly after he proposed role-speccing, which means him asking somebody else to do it was probably due to time constraints, which mancer, a veteran mafia player, should recognize and acknowledge during his read. In addition the second point is useless and not even really a point. It actually make no sense to me. I mean what was the point of saying he makes a good point but it should be obvious. If it's obvious it's not really a good point cause it doesn't contribute to the conversation or the game. If it's good then it stimulates conversation or is something people might've missed. It can't be both, which is kinda why the whole blitz read seems forced.

    We have very different opinions on what the word brilliant means. Because, ignoring the fact I don't think we need role-spec in the game ATM, I didn't find anything really impressive about proto's post it was pretty much just stuff people should already know and understand, another reason rolespec isn't helpful, and it doesn't add anything to the game.

    The izuhark vote is fine for the time it was made, I consider it the actual start of the wagon because he only had two votes on him at the time and then it somehow jumped to 5 in the blink of an eye. It's the same points other's have made but given the lack of content in thread that's fine IMO. But I feel like his blitz read had more conviction to it than his izuhark read, and his izuhark vote was more to not stand out early.

    With all that being said

    ##Unvote

    ##Vote: Mancer

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