Crystal Shards

Then why are you even posting here? This is a place to debate and grow, not a place to say, "This is what I think nah nah nah nah nahhhhh nah! You can't change my miiiiiiiiiiind! I'm not even listening!!!!" Esau has been more than patient despite his jabs at your (lack of) logic and you're still not even bothering to make any sense.

You go your way, and Esau will go his. He doesn't need you telling or advising him what to do. He's intelligent and can make decisions for himself. And honestly, his method has changed more than a few minds, so I wouldn't act like it doesn't/rarely work(s). Sometimes you just have to point out that a stupid idea is stupid. Er, yeah. Eclipse has stated several times that in her eyes, someone who isn't intelligent/thoughtful enough to use contraception should be forced to take the fetus to term.

Mocking can be practical, though. By showing a stupid idea in a joking light, you often show the person exactly how stupid his or her idea is. Being completely serious doesn't help sometimes, and Esau started out serious and eclipse still didn't/doesn't get why her idea is dumb. I mean honestly, banning abortion based on intelligence/lack of foresight is... unintelligent. There's really no serious way to take an idea like that. If you took everything completely seriously your head would likely implode (trust me, I've heard it all when it comes to abortion, God, and homosexuality).

Do you tell Christians to be safe?

I just want to add that forcing someone to carry a fetus to term can be just as traumatizing as forcing someone to have an abortion when they want to keep it and it causes no harm to carry the fetus to term. The point is someone should have a choice over what happens to his or her body. And disallowing abortion, whether it's across the board or arbitrarily to certain groups, only leads to more reckless ways of dealing with the problem (yes, I said the problem, because if it wasn't the problem the woman wouldn't be looking for a way out). Better anyone who wants an abortion have equal access to education and medical procedures done by licensed professionals than some back alley quack or... well I'm sure you have heard the stories. By the way, you still never mentioned a plan of action for those one million plus kids per year you've just put into adoption agencies and foster care.

I was under the impression it was common knowledge, but okay. For example: RAPE Deuteronomy 22:23-24 - If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife. Deuteronomy 22:28-29 - If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her. Exodus 21:7-11 - When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. SLAVERY Exodus 21:20-21 - When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. Luke 12:47-48 - The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." MURDER Deuteronomy 17:12 - Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. Exodus 21:15 - Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. Exodus 22:17 - You should not let a sorceress live. Isaiah 13:15-18 - Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. Isaiah 14:21 - Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. That's not all of them, obviously, but it's a good start. Obviously rational, moderate people don't follow these tenets (even though they're all prophecies or direct orders from God) but it's in the Bible, whether you like it or not. You can't just throw out the Old Testament and also claim that God's word is absolute and unchanging.

Religion is a farce. It's leftover mythology that people still cling to because of fear. I get the point of having it in a society, because it does keep people who would otherwise harm others from acting out, but as for my own life... well I'm perfectly moral and happy without it. I also don't thrive on guilt, like many religions do. I don't feel I deserve to pay for someone else's fuck up, and I definitely don't feel like if there is a greater being, that it is out there to torture me to the point where I feel like I deserve it for whatever reason. That said, I don't hate religion or religious people. I have a great respect for it, and I love to learn about it, but I just don't really see the point of it in regards to my own life, and sure as hell I don't get it when it comes to deciding what other people do with their lives.

Oh yes, advocating and/or condoning rape and genocide is still a very good morality to live by. We totally love that shit here and now, in the current time.

Considering the fact that Islam, Judaism, and Christianity have similar roots, and the fact that Hinduism is a major religion and has multiple gods and Buddhism is a major religion and it doesn't have a god at all, I'd say that comment is incorrect. Add in that the ancient Greeks, Celts, Romans, and several other major religions of the time had multiple gods and Christianity was actually rejected at first for the idea that one god does everything... Yeah.

And people have the right to free will. This includes the right to an abortion. Okay, let's just run with your dumbass idea for just one second. We force people to take abortion out of the equation. That's one million plus kids a year. Assuming all these kids are given up for adoption, that's one million plus kids A YEAR added to a system that's already near broken. GOOD FUCKING JOB. Now you've fucked over MORE lives. Face it: your idea blows.

I'll get to your interpretations later (Esau or anyone else can feel free to jump in on them; hell, it'll save me time), but seeing as I'm getting ready for bed, I'll comment the statement that stood out the most: "What better way to experience life as a human than to actually become a human?" God can do anything. If he knows everything, then he is capable of fully understanding humans. He doesn't need to (nor would he desire to) become human, and he certainly wouldn't need to send himself down to earth so he could do some kind of suicide mission.

The Bible is a poor source for an argument, as it's full of contradictions. Exodus 31:17 states that God does tires and needs to rest, yet Isaiah 40:28 clearly states the opposite. Acts 1:24 and Psalms 139: 2 and 3 state that God knows the hearts of men, but Deuteronomy 13:3, Deuteronomy 8:2, and Genesis 22:12 all state that God puts us through hardship to learn what's in our hearts (which also takes away from the claim of omniscience). Exodus 15:3 and Isaiah 51:15 state that God is warlike, yet Romans 15:33 and 1 Corinthians 14:33 state that God is peaceful. Jeremiah 13:14, Deuteronomy 7:16, 1 Samuel 15:2 and 3, and 1 Samuel 6:19 all state that God is cruel and merciless, whereas James 5:11, Lamentations 3:33, 1 Chronicles 16:34, Ezekiel 18:32, Psalms 145:9, 1 Timothy 2:4, 1 John 4:16, and Psalms 25:8 all state that God is kind and merciful. This is only the beginning of the contradictions found in the Bible. You'd think that you'd at least get the guy you're worshiping down pat, you know? Perfect proof of what I quoted was talking about when it said the following: Though really, I find it interesting that your only comment was on emotions, which really was the least worrisome of the statements made in that quoted piece. EDIT: Needed to emphasize something.

Seeing as I don't live in California, you may be correct. We've talked about the ads that I have found, so I feel no need to discuss that particular point in... well, particular, unless you feel like bringing it up here. And protecting straight marriage, to me, is stopping domestic abuse and lowering divorce rates, not preventing gays from marrying. I don't see gay marriage as a threat: gays marrying in California have no effect on my life. In fact, even if one of my good friends ended up marrying his boyfriend, it wouldn't really affect me with the exception of my feelings of happiness for them being happy. It wouldn't change the fact that I am more than likely going to marry a man. It won't prevent me from having kids (I have enough reasons to not have any as it is), and it won't encourage me to get divorced or beat any children I do have. No, legality doesn't have anything to morality. I would agree with this. Agreed. I encourage you to watch Tying the Knot. I need to rewatch it, but it's a good example of how invalidated gay couples are in this country, even by people who openly supported their unions. While validating homosexual relationships through marriage may not in and of itself resolve legal issues regarding wills and the like, it (hopefully) is one step toward that. Overturning Prop 8 isn't going to save the world or anything, but I do honestly believe it'll be a giant step forward, toward both equality and safety for couples.

Eh, Paganism is only slightly less bunk than Christianity for me. I don't believe in any god(s), but I do appreciate the fact that Wicca is one of those religions that honestly has a respect for life. At least from everything I've ever read about it.

I can't word it any better than this:

I'm sorry, I don't think you understood how stupid that line of thinking is. You want people who are responsible to not go through pregnancy and those who are not to go through with it. You want what I'm going to assume you think are dumb people who don't think of consequences (or haven't had the education to know better) to have kids and either give them up or raise them. HELLO. DUMB. An abortion is an abortion. Who gives a flying fuck why they happen? They do. I'd rather everyone have equal access to safe procedures than trying stupider ways of inducing abortions at home. It's ignorant to think some people are "more deserving" of that just because of their IQ or common sense abilities.

Meh, couldn't care less, but I guess other people are happy about it, so...

So you'd rather people who don't care about consequences and weren't smart enough to consider contraception if they didn't want to get pregnant be forced to take a pregnancy to term. You want at least nine more months of that. Think about that and get back to me.

Why do people always see abortion as the "easy way out"? You guys are also always the ones that talk about the emotional repercussions of abortions and how they make people suicidal or whatever. There's nothing easy about abortion. The two people I know who had abortions (one got raped in college, one's birth control failed while in high school) made the decision with much thought and while I don't know that they regret the decision it's certainly not as trivial to them as spilling water onto their shirt.

Yeah, yeah I do. I know I was having serious discussions about abortions with friends when I was that young, and many of my friends from university report similar discussions. It's not exactly an uncommon phenomenon. And really, if you make contraception available and have proper sex education, it's a lot less likely that it'll ever come up anyway.

Uh, yeah it is. It's not like abortion is some magic candyland adventure. Most people actually think long and hard before getting one.

1. If you think sex horribly ruins your bodies and minds forever, then that is a problem for you, not society. Sex is a highly enjoyable act for me and it helps intimacy grow in my relationships, and even with my history, sex did not ruin my mind or body. 2. Wrong. Making the drinking age as high as it is here makes drinking underage seem glamorous, which encourages more people to do it, and when they do it, to do it to an obnoxious degree, which is what leads to brain damage, drunk driving, alcohol poisoning, etc. Also, because the drinking age is higher than the driving age, when people DO become legal, since it's been prohibited for so long, they often overdo it, which is why a lot of auto insurance goes up at 21 and then goes back down at 25 or so, especially for males. I'm from Europe and our drinking ages range from 16-18 (though I've never seen it really all that enforced) and most people just have a beer with dinner or something. Binge drinking is a fairly new idea in Europe, and while we are seeing it on the increase, it's mostly the age bracket that can't drive yet. (The driving age is 18.) Because a driver's license is so hard to come by in Europe (it's expensive too) and it can be easily taken away if you do something stupid enough, people generally take it seriously, as opposed to the States, where's it's like 20 bucks and a test and bam you have it.

From what I hear a lot of people who did vote yes on Prop 8 (not necessarily most but not a few) were astounded to find out that Prop 8 took away rights instead of what they thought it was going to be: not teaching young kids about gay sex, protecting straight marriage, etc. I also heard from people who live in California that these ads played constantly--every other ad was one of these ads, on some channels. Some people still think that Prop 8 prevents gay sex from being taught to small children. So it's not entirely unheard of. It's not necessarily that these people didn't believe X anyway, but rather they were mislead to think that X was what was being prevented when really it was Y. And maybe they're afraid of/against Y too, but it only adds confusion. Well, the judge was actually nominated by Reagan, and liberals bitched about him because he wasn't "blue enough." And they had the option of asking for another judge, to my knowledge. And if you actually read the ruling, he makes a good case. I haven't had the chance to read it all yet, due to the GRE shit, but yeah. Actually, it makes life a lot harder. Wills are often ignored in the cases of a gay couple, even if they are in a civil union. And second parent adoption is HELL for single parents and gay couples. Up until recently many hospitals didn't even allow visitation rights for gay couples. It's not as easy as it looks without the actual legal backing of being married. I'm not sure on your tangent. It's possible--scroll through the ruling maybe? Agreed.

Not to derail the topic, but if you outlaw guns, only the outlaws will have guns. And judges should not have to campaign to stay or to be put back into place, as their job is not to please the people but to uphold the Constitution; that's why there are no term limits. Anyway, back on topic: http://www.towleroad...udges-stay.html

Which principles in the Constitution no longer apply today?