Irysa
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C10x - 2/84 Turns
Obviously a trivial 1 turn is possible but this map is such a good source of EXP, so I was happy to slow down. Got the maximum amount of 8 total kills and managed to optimise reliability everywhere else enough that I was able to go for the 8th kill with Marth via a Wo Dao crit.
My fav part of this clear is that Palla is tanky enough to not even die to the boss if she gets crit.
Arms Scrolled Ryan as a Swordmaster before deploying as a Paladin (rare sighting!). After 8 rounds of combat with a Sword (5 following this map) he'll have natural C Swords as a Horseman or Paladin, which definitely comes in handy. He can get the remaining 5 uses in Anri's Way most likely. Barst's one for Hauteclure as a Berserker isn't as urgent, but I can use the C11 Arms Scroll for that if neccessary.
I decided to deploy Cord over Etzel for the 2 extra staff uses because getting Cord to be my 2nd natural Fortify user will probably be more useful than getting Etzel to my 3rd natural Again user. Etzel will get to Physic and will be doing Excalibur things/possibly using Unlock since he's much bulkier than other staffbots but there's definitely no time to get him to Fortify and a suboptimal team will appreciate extra Fortifies and Xane duping Palla.
Going to drill and promote Cain next map.
UNIT CLASS LEVEL HP STR MAG SKL SPD LCK DEF RES WEXP BOOSTERS Marth Lord 15.97 35 16 00 17 20 17 13 00 C Swd Growth Drop, 1 Wing MyUnit Bishop 15/04.61 42 08 16 19 20 16 04 14 B Tme D Stf Palla D.Knight 12/10.34 52 22 01 22 23 12 21 03 A Lnc D Axe 2 Robes, 1 Shield Ryan Horseman 14/05.54 36 19 00 23 21 12 14 03 A Bow D Swd 1 Scroll Barst D.Knight 12/03.49 33 19 00 19 18 10 17 03 D Lnc C Axe Cecille Cavalier 18.10 33 14 03 18 20 15 12 01 C Swd C Lnc Cain Cavalier 14.82 32 15 00 13 15 09 14 00 C Swd D Lnc Arran D.Knight 05.85 26 12 01 12 11 04 14 03 B Lnc E Axe Malicia Sage 11/02.32 29 03 13 05 13 17 07 07 D Tme A Stf Etzel Sorcerer 06.25 30 02 11 14 12 08 10 12 B Tme D Stf Cord Curate 11.10 21 02 06 08 12 09 05 09 C Stf
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@Slumber
Dagda does have availability concerns that most other Jeigans don't have but that doesn't change the fact his bases are high enough to carry him for nearly the whole game. Thracia's enemies are mostly terrible and anything Dagda doesn't naturally double he basically gets to psuedo double because of charge (which is far from being a bad skill), or he can use the Brave Axe to 2HKO nearly everything (he's also one of the best units to use to capture enemies because of these traits). Str Bld and HP are exactly the kind of stats that are useful for a unit like him, so the fact he has so much is great, and scrolls help him out just as much as they help unpromoted characters.Like, I get that Orsin statistically starts to pull ahead fairly quick and has an amazing 1-2 along with good PCC but Dagda is still completely demolishing most of your army at that point in the game and continues to do so for a while. He's well worth deploying over many other chumps, and the places where he's not so great are dominated by staffers anyway. Describing him as "not a good Jeigan" is doing him a disservice, because he's still an excellent unit.
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Lilina and Merric.
I guess Merric isn't technically "bad" (decent at worst usually) but he is signifciantly worse than Wendell and Etzel in most appearances bar possibly FE3 B2.
Lilina is terrible but she's one of the bad units that is easier to train and is more interesting to use than most of the others because of unique qualities like the quick Roy support, how hard she hits with Magic, Bolting, Staves, etc.
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Technically Karel has the highest def growth.
Lot is just okay. He's like the most average character possible. As far as Hero Crest users go he's pretty outclassed by Rutger and Dieck, but if you're playing Normal Mode he shouldn't be terrible choice or anything, as he's fast enough to double. Accuracy is a bit meh though.
He's not actually that tanky because his base defence is somewhat low. For example, after 10 levels, he's tied or worse than Alan and Lance in Defence despite their lower growth, because they have higher bases. He'll have more HP though at least and with more levels and promotion he pulls ahead, but it's not a really big lead.
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C10 - 2/82 Turns
Not having Minerva to oneshot Shaver Mages is annoying but was workable since Ryan and Barst both have solid Strength (though both of them need the Mage to roll down on at least 1 of HP or Def). The Physic on Cecille on T1 was technically uneccessary since she has the bulk to survive the Merc with the extra Res she got from being Barried/Shards (and all the durability rigging I did for her in Prologue/Drill Grounds), but I did it anyway to make up for the Physic I didn't have to use on Palla last map due to a miss. Killed Elrean because the EXP he gives is worth more than his life, and I can't really afford to deploy Dracoknight Wendell without having to do something like rig a Killer Lance crit with Arran on one of the Mages. Swordmaster!MU could have been deployed to ORKO the middle Merc but I'm really close to C Staves as Bishop and I'll get progressively less flexability with her as the game goes on, so I want to get there fast.
Got the Unlock Staff after some deliberation cause it's nice on C20 and 22, which means I definitely overspent on Door Keys. Oh well, it's like 900 Gold wasted at most.
UNIT CLASS LEVEL HP STR MAG SKL SPD LCK DEF RES WEXP BOOSTERS Marth Lord 15.40 35 16 00 17 20 17 13 00 C Swd Growth Drop, 1 Wing MyUnit Bishop 15/04.45 42 08 16 19 20 16 04 14 B Tme D Stf Palla D.Knight 12/09.75 51 22 01 21 23 12 20 03 A Lnc D Axe 2 Robes, 1 Shield Ryan Horseman 14/04.81 35 18 00 22 21 12 14 03 A Bow E Swd Barst D.Knight 12/02.99 32 19 00 18 18 09 16 03 D Lnc C Axe Cecille Cavalier 18.10 33 14 03 18 20 15 12 01 C Swd C Lnc Cain Cavalier 13.94 31 14 00 13 14 08 13 00 C Swd D Lnc Arran D.Knight 05.85 26 12 01 12 11 04 14 03 B Lnc E Axe Malicia Sage 11/02.32 29 03 13 05 13 17 07 07 D Tme A Stf Etzel Sorcerer 06.25 30 02 11 14 12 08 10 12 B Tme D Stf Cord Curate 10.80 21 02 06 07 11 08 05 08 C Stf
The last bunch of maps have been kinda amusing because they're easier to LTC than to do slowly, with the exception of this one. However, since I want Merric alive for the Final Chapter (recruiting the Bishops is a lot easier than killing them), and I'm not willing to blow Physics or a Rescue use on him, LTCing it is still the way to go. I guess I kind of would have liked to have grabbed the free Physic but since I got Julian I'm comfortable about my money.
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Ray or Niime with some statboosters should be able to Nosferatutank some Wyverns on a mountain or forest. You can also dodge most of the reinforcements if you make sure to avoid the trigger zones via utilising flying units like Miledy to avoid entering them till the end of the map. The Warp Staff (if you have it) can help you to move faster over the terrain too.
http://www.fireemblemwod.com/fe6/guiafe6/ENG_cap21.htm
Although you should know, if you broke the other divine weapons you're going to get the bad ending anyway.
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Could do a thing where it depends how you split your army up.
Like, whichever route Joshua goes on, Marisa is recruited on the other. Whichever route Vanessa goes on, Tana is recruited on the other. etc.
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C9 - 5/80
5 Turns
Drilled Cecille for HP STR SPD DEF
Drilled Malicia for HP MAG RES and promoted.
Promoted Barst.
Gave Palla a Robe.
Palla's strong enough right now to pull off the MU Etzel pull strats, which is pretty amazing since I'm pretty sure I couldn't 6 turn if Marth had to recruit Etzel near the start. Malicia was promoted since she doesn't ORKO Mages and the extra Mag makes sure Palla can always be healthy enough to survive everything. Palla dodged a Mage in the video but she can always survive everything with at least 1 HP. The only thing it changed is that Malicia normally has to Physic her on Turn 4 (unless the Swarm Bishop misses), but since there's nothing important she needs to do that turn it doesnt matter.
UNIT CLASS LEVEL HP STR MAG SKL SPD LCK DEF RES WEXP BOOSTERS Marth Lord 15.32 35 16 00 17 20 17 13 00 C Swd Growth Drop, 1 Wing MyUnit Bishop 15/04.28 42 08 16 19 20 16 04 14 B Tme D Stf Palla D.Knight 12/09.34 51 22 01 21 23 12 20 03 A Lnc D Axe 2 Robes, 1 Shield Ryan Horseman 14/04.26 35 18 00 22 21 12 14 03 A Bow E Swd Barst D.Knight 12/02.51 32 19 00 18 18 09 16 03 D Lnc C Axe Cecille Cavalier 17.70 32 14 03 18 20 14 12 00 C Swd C Lnc Cain Cavalier 13.00 31 14 00 13 14 08 13 00 C Swd D Lnc Arran D.Knight 05.64 26 12 01 12 11 04 14 03 B Lnc E Axe Malicia Sage 11/02.04 29 03 13 05 13 17 07 07 D Tme B Stf Etzel Sorcerer 06.08 30 02 11 14 12 08 10 12 B Tme D Stf Cord Curate 10.50 21 02 06 07 11 08 05 08 C Stf
The 2 turn of 10 without Minerva is annoying >:(
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I went to review some of the script and it's more vague than I remembered it being so no, it isn't really. I think that kind of angle could be explored more, especially given that he's statistically also a weak unit. Heck, he's the worst Lord in the franchise up to that point.
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On 23/04/2017 at 8:04 AM, ping said:
One of the most common points of critique against Roy as a character (not a unit) is that he doesn't really has any flaws which makes him somewhat boring compared to other main characters, and that is taking into account that FE lords in general often have a rather generic characterisation. I find it odd that you insist, despite being told otherwise again and again, that Roy makes loads of bad decisions. It's Merlinus who constantly errs, if only to showcase Roy's superior intelligence - which IMO is the biggest flaw with Roy's writing: the game is constantly shoving into your face just how smart Roy is compared to his "main advisor".
Roy's primary flaw is that he's a bad fighter (he displays some degree self consciousness about this and others comment about it), the point is that he makes up for it with good intuition and being smart (although he underrates himself a lot of the time too). It's not amazing or anything but it works.
That being said it could have been alluded to more, and Merlinus is made out to be a bigger idiot than he really should be most of the time.
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I have said earlier and elsewhere that no unit is truly completely useless, or can do literally nothing, so Wendy only really would reach into negative utility in really lategame scenarios where even keeping her alive is difficult. I accept I was being overly hyperbolic in the first part of my earlier reply. I retract that statement.
Overall, Wendy being deployed is worth something, just nearly nothing (aside from some maps where it's hard to keep her safe). But deploying Bors and Barth to put her up to 0.5 has a cost associated with it in meaning we used up 2 more slots we could have used on better units, and are also dedicating more units to moving them around.
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I expanded on that point further on, and that specific number was purposely a bit hyperbolic. Wendy at least can exist on a map and do the things I outlined earlier, which whilst small is like still only worth like 0.1 to 0.5 points or something. It's better than an empty slot (at least on most maps, by really lategame it's probably detrimental)
But deploying Bors and Barth too means you go from possibly having like 2.5 to being 1.5. Bors and Barth don't have to be assumed in Wendy's usage.
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Gee, it's almost as if there was never any real overlap between the majority of people buying the new games and those who bought the old ones! How on earth could a game lacking in a stupid self insert, extensive shipping/dating sim mechanics, groping/petting minigames, and pandery/highly sexualised character designs possibly have not appealed to the fans of neo-FE? Remember, all they actually cared about was casual mode and accessability guys, it had nothing to do with the overall tone of the series!
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4 hours ago, Baldrick said:
Not a total waste. 1/3 > 0/1. It's suboptimal, but if you only consider optimal strategies you should only have two tiers: "Contributes to the efficient playthrough" and "Does not contribute".
E.G. Rutger is a more optimal bosskiller than Fir. Does that mean she gets no credit for bosskilling?
A unit can be a detriment if they are deployed. The reality is that it costs more efficiency to get Wendy to do anything than it does to have her do nothing, especially if we're talking about having to wait/dedicate rescuedrops for 2 other low mov units (one of which cannot be rescued except by unpromoted Shanna or Shin) to set up for her.
It's not 1/3 > 0/1, it's actually more like -1 > -3. Even if you want to argue the utility of all 3 armor Knights at least amounts to 1, you're still at -2 because nearly nearly every single possible extra unit combination of Wendy + 2 others is better than Wendy + 2 Armors.
To assume a unit is being used does not mean we completely waive the costs associated with using them. Even when we assume Wendy is being used, the amount of cost associated with actually using her is still less if she's by herself, beause she could be doing something like holding onto extra items someone needs at a later point in the map, shopping, visiting a house, carrying someone, etc. It doesn't have to be combat.
3 hours ago, grandjackal said:As for Echidna and Bartre, I dislike assuming that somehow in her glorious enemy phase she's somehow switching between swords and axes to deal with a reaver,I dislike saying Bartre being able to actually take these hits and then saying "but you're better off dealing with it from range first" when he is specifically better at doing that as well. I dislike thinking that strats in FE6 go so perfectly that we apparently never need healing. In a way, I feel we both are being unreasonable here.
I never assumed she could swap during EP, merely that against those Axereaver Cavaliers she has an advantage that you're failing to note.
Bartre being able to take a crit in that scenario is not a significant advantage when that is a bad way to deal with them, Echidna does more damage at 2 range with the Light Brand anyway, and is more accurate with the Halberd that you're so fond of insisting is worth using.
I never assumed we don't need healing, I said that you usually have flexability in healing targets especially since enemies are not that accurate, so scenarios where we cannot afford to heal Echidna are not that common.
3 hours ago, grandjackal said:Funny that using Bartre is mentioned, because I just got done using him. I generally felt like I could do more with him for longer. If we're just deciding that Echidna is better, I would still say the tier gap makes no sense. I see no reason for him to be in the same tier as the "we exist" tier. Bartre is immediately a good unit where him being used is fairly realistic for a while. Most people in mid tier are mostly trainable/usable but are overall mediocre. He just doesn't fit there (and I would argue Ellen fits those parameters, despite staffs being a special case).
He's not in the "we exist" tier, he's a tier of units who have an overall positive impact on the team but are typically outclassed or have costs that are non negligble to the point of making using them questionable. Bartre fits there fine if you ask me. Elen has basically 3 maps of being our only healer and can realistically reach Warp for Chapter 16x, which is a very big turn save, and then do some Warping in midgame to help save more turns, which means she has scenarios where she is contributing a lot more than Bartre ever is.
3 hours ago, grandjackal said:I could at least argue him over Igrene on basics alone. Igrene is pretty decent on one route (in fairness, it's the harder route) and is a great filler bow unit, but still has all the issues that come with being bow locked. Bartre's also been around longer, time spent being one of the better units on the force. Igrene shows up good, but by her appearance is not that special in comparison.
Igrene is good on both routes (Ilia mostly she is still effective against Pegs and can use Ballistae) but is one of your better units on the harder one, significantly better than Bartre. Bartre is not one of the better units in your army unless you are using a team composing of a lot of below mid-tiers. He is above average but he's still worse than many others. Igrene's bow rank makes her significantly better in many scenarios than Bartre due to access to weapons like the Brave Bow, and she can have real EP in various scenarios and function as a bosskiller (Chapter 16, all of Sacae, Narcian post Delphi Shield steal, Sigune, etc). Bartre has no strong niches like this.
Bartre's availability lead is essentially 1 Chapter that he's good in (12), 2 that he's decent in (12x, 13), and 2 that he's mediocre in (14, 14x). This is not enough of a lead to really offset the fact that Igrene can actually keep getting deployed well past the point Bartre is falling off. For example, Igrene even as filler is handy in lategame maps like 21 and 23 as another unit to help kill Wyverns reliably. Bartre doesn't double and never oneshots so he needs help to combo with, wheras Igrene can use the Brave Bow.
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19 minutes ago, Baldrick said:
Is it worse than deploying Wendy or Sophia on their own, and them doing absolutely nothing because they can't meaningfully engage the enemy?
Yes because you're now using 3 unit slots on bad units instead of just 1. 2 better units could have dealt with the enemy Wendy needed Bors and Barth to deal with before they even all get into position.
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3 hours ago, grandjackal said:
Bolting: Well, why not make use of Bolting to spread out our Sleep uses? At this point I'm just trying to brainstorm. It's a 10 range magic blast. Even with 5 uses, it has to be useful somehow.
I said Silence, not Sleep. There's a big distinction because Silence only has like 3 places it's worth using in the game, and this is one of them.
It's not my job to demonstrate examples of where Bolting is useful. I've already given some and can say there aren't really many more, so if you believe there are more, prove it.
3 hours ago, grandjackal said:Ashtor: Considering he has 2 less base Str than Fir and hardly more durable to matter, he doesn't even outperform her that hard at base with Steel. 6 move and Light Brand is a thing, but I wouldn't say claiming Ashtor is another Deick while Fir is some random durdler.
His combat is comparable to unpromoted Dieck and is better than Fir's until she's been trained, and he has thief utility and the extra point of mov. What are you even actually trying to contest here? Western Isles enemies are pretty difficult to ORKO for most units, so Astor's guaranteed 2RKO, 50%~ chance to ORKO with a KE, and always putting an enemy into kill range is above average at this point. It stops being good after the Isles but he's still got thief utility to carry him.
3 hours ago, grandjackal said:Klein and Swordmasters: By nature, it's hard to get exp on a sniper. For Klein to actually have more luck than base Bartre, he would need to gain 6 levels in 8 chapters as a promoted unit as a sniper. As for Swordmasters, sure. That much is true. The fact Bartre can still make a realistic attempt where Echidna just feeds herself is still an advantage. More shots is better than no shots.
Advantages have to be meaningful to carry weight. Bartre should not getting significant credit for the fact he has a middling chance to chip a SM for more damage than Echidna can do with a Light Brand.
3 hours ago, grandjackal said:Healing: Bartre needs less healing overall, especially due to the fact he isn't running at lance users with a sword. Advantage Bartre.
Give an example where you are so strained strategically that you cannot afford to heal Echidna where Bartre can do her job. Because whilst I'll accept they probably exist, the fact I can't really think of many real examples means it's not like this is a particularly significant point as both of these units are usually relegated to second string jobs instead of heavy lifting. It's about as much a point in Bartre's favor as the fact that Echidna has 3 mov in the desert and he has 2, which whilst worth bringing up, does not factor into their use for most of the game.
3 hours ago, grandjackal said:Damage: Damage output is subjective. By the numbers yes, Echidna can do more damage against things that she doubles with a killer axe that has less than 12 def to Bartre using a basic iron axe. However, one can take a gander at 13's paladins. Bartre can one shot them with the poleaxe, a weapon specifically meant to kill these guys. Echidna does not one shot them with said weapon, so she must continue relying on the killer axe. To accomplish the same, she would need to crit twice. Bartre can either one shot with a crit (and thus being more economical with said killer axe), Echidna still gets two chances and a crit with a hit is still single digits HP.
There are only 3 Paladins on that map and all are better dealt with with the Horseslayer anyway. Also Bartre does not oneshot the Paladins with the Halberd.
10 Base Mt Halberd + 1 from WTA * 3 = 33
33 + 22 - 14 = 41
Paladins all have over 41 HP. Even vs the lower def Paladins he doesn't do enough to oneshot. Even disregarding that, his chances of connecting that Halberd are poor, so he may just end up doing 0 damage entirely. Comparatively Echidna does more reliable damage and only fails to ORKO the 14 Def Paladins with crit + hit.
3 hours ago, grandjackal said:However, this doesn't account for the fact Bartre can see more action due to being more durable. In this same chapter, there are ballista. Other cavaliers (who wield crit weapons like Killer Lances and Axereavers). The cavs with the crit weapons one shot her with a crit, where Bartre can actually eat a crit and survive. The ballistas do a third of her health while Bartre a 4th. Paladins deal half of her health in damage. This is ignoring that the sniper and paladin also have a small chance to crit her as well. Even as soon as chapter 12. The archers typically deal 12 damage to her at roughly 50s accuracy, dark mages 13. Bartre is basically able to take on 1 or 2 extra fights before being concerned. Even despite her doubling with a hand axe or light brand, Bartre still deals more damage in one shot of an iron bow. Bartre can actually one shot dark mages with steel, where Echidna would need to hit twice with a hand axe (at which point, they share the same accuracy). He can even double the steel axe fighters that block your way to the throne and attempt to clog the way out.
Are you actually advocating for having Bartre engage Killer Lance Cavaliers to the face when you have much better ways of dealing with them? Bartre might survive 1 crit but any crit wielding enemy is better dealt with by weakening them at range safely before fighting them face on. It's also funny you mention there are Axereaver Paladins but fail to note that Echidna can get WTA against them too, so if we're being generous then it's an even split for them.
If you play the map correctly then only one Ballista from the enemies is going off, and that's on Turn 1, as the ideal strategy is to rush in with a dance rescuedrop to make the Sniper get off the Ballista.
Why would Echidna be fighting the Sniper on EP? If she's attacking it, it's on PP to the face so she wont face any crit. Only one of the high rolling Paladins has 1 crit on her, and his accuracy against her is poor if she's using an axe. There are plenty of other units who can fight that Paladin if you so want anyway, as Echidna's main job on this map is helping to kill the Mages, Archers and Cavaliers, all of which she does better than Bartre.
Bartre does have good performance in 12 due to Bow access. But this is a favorable map in general for Bow users and not indicative of a larger trend as you say in the next quote.
3 hours ago, grandjackal said:These are trends that essentially carry on throughout the course of the game. People see her damage output with a killer and pretend that her flaws don't exist. She has to play significantly safer where Bartre doesn't. Echidna's performance deteriorates far harder than Bartre does. There are some things Echidna can do but Bartre can't, but the reverse is also true. Echidna's flaws get handwaived so hard it's mindboggling. It may be due to the fact that people just assume Echidna and her route are better so they don't ever actually use Bartre.
Of course Echidna has flaws, and of course she falls off. So does Bartre. Both units are basically just filler prepromotes that get deployed for midgame and typically do next to nothing in the lategame. Echidna has more unique advantages and is overall more reliable than Bartre is, and her durability is not worse to the point that she has difficulty helping to contribute. Do you think Bartre just needs to move up above Fir? or do you think he's better than Elen and Igrene? Or does Echidna have to drop? Bartre over these units is a different argument altogether.
3 hours ago, grandjackal said:Armads: Bartre has A rank, and is big enough at base to run at people. The answer to your question is "not hard".
Also, no she doesn't. She fails to ORKO, and in response they have 9 displayed crit on her. I'm not even remotely ok with having nearly double digit percent chances of restarting the map. Also, one Manakete doesn't move, and the other is behind a door after a small hallway, which has extremely limited ways to target him. Bartre can just shoot it once with steel, and then anyone with the sword rank can do the same job (without randomly exploding).
50 attacks with an Axe when you never double is not realistic by the time manaketes appear. By the end of the game possibly, but there are so many other better units to give boots to that Bartre is SoL.
There are basically no units at this point in the game who have C swords and have enough luck to negate Manakete crit at this point in the game besides Percival. Echidna is only about 1 or 2% worse than Alance, Rutger, Fir, etc. It's just a fact of life. One of the better ways to try to deal with the crit is to Light Brand the Manakete down (20 damage per round) until he's in OHKO range though, something Echidna is fine at.
3 hours ago, grandjackal said:Garret: Garret has 13 con, and lacks bows. Garret is essentially useless against anything with a sword or range, and wielding heavier weapons gets him doubled more certainly than Bartre does (such as the Brave Axe). Garret looks minorly better on paper, but is far more narrow in things he can actually do.
Btw, have you noticed how in this comparison between Bartre and Echidna that I haven't brought up other characters out of the blue to compare Echidna to? Bad habit I used to have.
lol, if we're pulling the passive-aggressive BS game then the amount of things you have been flat out wrong about so far is by far a worse habit that you need to fix. Seriously, you haven't even admitted you were completely wrong in trying to advocate that Bartre had acceptable EP against Nomads in Sacae. If by your stanards Echidna can only fight 1 Nomad safely on EP, then Bartre can only take 1 as well because of how much damage he takes per round compared to her AND the existant crit he faces. The Garret comparison is to demonstrate that most of Bartre's uses besides Bows are generally better done by what is considered to be a significantly worse unit with not that much worse availability. Bow access for Bartre is a plus, and it deserves to elevate him, but you bring up Steel Bows so much that I begin to wonder if you've ever used him, considering Steel Bow accuracy in this game is pretty ass and not nearly worth the 3 extra damage compared to the 15 extra hit of the Iron Bow.
3 hours ago, grandjackal said:Anyways, I may have turned around a little on Lugh vs Lot, but even with effort and trying in a more casual run, Lugh by chapter 8 is still just level 7. If 9 speed isn't good enough for Oujay, then it doesn't let Lugh have any better. He's still painfully fragile. He still doesn't hit that hard. Looking at his early promotion, I would rather early promote Clarine. 3 less magic, but 15 speed actually doubles things (as opposed to 11). Also, probably pulls her out of getting one shotted. Also also, staff users promote and basically have elite as far as combat goes. So, she still levels fairly well.
In short, while I did give him less credit than he deserves, I still feel generally underwhelmed.
Clarine's base level is terrible and she won't be able to promote for ages. Only have D Staves means she can't even use the boosted EXP of the Barrier Staff to try to get to promotion faster till she Heals 50 fucking times. How slow do you have to be playing for Clarine to be able to promote before Lugh can? It takes 81 Mends or so to get to level 10, and you only get a dancer much later. Lets not forget that Clarine is stuck with Fire wheras Lugh will have access to basically everything by the time he promotes.
I don't disagree that both mages are pretty underwhelming at this point in the game, but the point about them is that they eventually get some utility and become capable of ORKOing. Lot never has that niche.
3 hours ago, grandjackal said:Dorothy: If you're suggesting we split our forces on this map just so she can claim to shoot once at a wyvern, you are insane. Her accuracy even with an iron bow is in the 60s. Lugh and her can't do it alone, Who are we sending over with them? Why are we not just barreling down the right side? We have to rescue Zealot and Treck anyways, and we can do it as soon as they show up. Splitting our forces doesn't sound smart here.
What?
Splitting up is the ideal strategy in the map because it's the best way to manage the overwhelming amount of enemies. The ideal strat involves setting up a chokepoint using the forests on the LHS of the map with some units like the Cavaliers and Rutger whilst the remaining units combo on the left. Watch dondon's 0% clear of Chapter 7 if you don't believe me. There is no reliable way to deal with the Wyverns anyway so Steel Bow Dorothy (or if you're lucky with everyone else's hits, possibly Iron, which is in the 70s by the way, not the 60s) is about as good as it gets.
This is a series of images demonstrating turns 2 and 3 of a strategy I often use in tacking the start of Chapter 7. It's pretty easy to follow the images and the CoS is pretty good.
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35 minutes ago, Harvey said:
umm....what about normal?
On normal you won't really miss either of them because the Paladins have good enough stats to manage the bosses.
36 minutes ago, Harvey said:Ok so based on the posts, is it safe to say or to state a rule that without Rutger, the game's nearly impossible?
If not, then have any one of you guys never used him throughtout your entire playthrough?
Definitely not. I've done a playthrough without Rutger on HM. I did have Dieck but it should still all be doable without him if you sink enough EXP into the other units.
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On HM you at least can eventually train Fir (who should be able to kill Gelero and beyond with enough investment), but the hardest part of the game gets way harder. You'd basically be forced into heavily focusing on Marcus's Sword Rank so he can use Rutger's Killing Edge ASAP (assuming you recruit him but just dont use him), and you'd probably want to try to get his Roy support online before Dory (15 turns next to/carrying Roy for a C, 20 for the other two Cavs and Wolt).
Once you promote Alance they can take over that role but when it comes to Henning every Paladin is going to just be gumming him with the Killing Edge and Light Brand praying for some hits and crits.
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On 27/04/2017 at 5:12 AM, grandjackal said:
Bolting: While true that that is a fact, I feel like there has to be a more reliable use for bolting. Killing the 16x bolting sage welcomer asshole comes to mind, or getting some breathing space in chapter 20 Sacae (rudest starting area for a map ever).
Chapter 20 Sacae for a reliable clear you either AI manip or Niime should be double Silencing the Sages ASAP, as you don't have enough Bolting charges to deal with them. One of the better uses is actually in helping to clear out Wyverns from the top of the map in Chapter 21. There are not enough places where Bolting is particularly useful that it is a big deal to use it when the 10 range matters.
On 27/04/2017 at 5:12 AM, grandjackal said:Astor and Fir: Ok, he's kinda better but he's not exactly blowing her out of the water.
Why not? He takes no effort to basically be as good as Dieck with an extra point of mov and unique utility. Until like Chapter 21 Astol is being deployed just about every map for me even on a casual PT, wheras Fir you have to actually bother to train.
On 27/04/2017 at 5:12 AM, grandjackal said:Weapons: Hammer is indeed booty sweat, not that Bartre needs it. He can basically do the same job with steel weapons. Also, I forget if weapon disadvantage effects slayer mt. I remember that being a thing in one of the games in the series, but not specifically this one. Regardless, there are still issues I have. Wielding a sword gives these enemies realistic hit rates, and have a habit of doing over half health to her. Bartre can run at these guys and basically not care. I feel there's a difference between being able to use a thing and required to use a thing that is being missed here.
It does affect it but regular knights are still going to get ORKO'd by any armorslayer. Bartre still has non-negligable accuracy issues if he wants to try to Steel weapon a Knight tbh. Echidna taking a lot of dmg from enemies like that only matters in the context of situations where we can't afford to heal her, and given the generous deployment slots and generous physic range, it is not difficult for Clarine to mend her up or Saul to Physic or something in scenarios like these.
On 27/04/2017 at 5:12 AM, grandjackal said:Light Brand and Sacae: You not finding enough ways to make use of a 20 durability weapon only proves my point in that the weapon is not actually that useful. It basically tells me you couldn't find roughly 10 or so fights in the game to do it. 10 fights is not a lot. Secondly, Bartre would need to be critted 4 times to go down in Sacae or eat 2 before he's in significant danger as opposed to Echidna who eats 1 crit and is in immediate danger. Thirdly, 70 acc on Light Brand vs 80 on iron bow makes the accuracy difference 4. 4 hit, or double digit damage advantage? Bartre can risk considerably more exposure, and accomplish more with said exposure, while I have to basically tuck Echidna away to basically do 10 damage to an enemy.
It is actually pretty damn useful, it's just that the optimal team compositions don't really need you to use it that much, esp if you go to Ilia. In Sacae there are better Light Brand EP users (read, Paladins), but that doesn't bar Echidna from being able to have an EP if you wish. Also the Light Brand has 25 uses not 20.
It's not that he needs to be crit 4 times, it's that he takes fucking 16 to 20 damage per round against Nomads who all double him, have good accuracy, AND they have crit on him. You are kidding yourself if you think he has decent EP against these guys, getting doubled is really bad.
On 27/04/2017 at 5:12 AM, grandjackal said:Proud of Sue, Klein and Igrene. They also have nothing to do with comparing Bartre to Echidna. Also, they're arguably not better than Bartre in this specific spot. Klein has 10 or so more base hit, but significantly less durability while facing the same crit rates. Igrene needs 2 speed in what time she has between join time and Sacae to avoid being doubled, as otherwise it's a worse situation for her (though I was unaware she had 11 base defense. If she can get that 2 speed, she'd actually be pretty good here). Not gonna touch on Sue.
Klein has good growths so he can get out of the crit and avoid being doubled. Igrene only needs 1 Speed to not get doubled by most of the Nomads in Sacae. At base she isn't getting doubled by like 90% of them on 17, and that 1 point gets her into over 80% of them not doubling her on 18 and 19. And at the Swordmaster thing, Bartre is still pretty inaccurate even with an Iron Bow against Swordmasters. It's broadly moot since you're actually going to throw a Brave Bow user into a Brave Lance user against them ideally, not Bartre.
On 27/04/2017 at 5:12 AM, grandjackal said:Enemy phase: I'm arguing that Echidna's enemy phase is not actually better. She doubles, and yet Bartre still manages to do roughly the same amount of damage anyways (and is better against higher defense enemies/enemies Echidna can't double). They have roughly the same avoid, except Bartre has 12 more HP and 2 more Def. Despite popular belief, not a lot of enemies actually double Bartre until way later (at which point I could argue Echidna doesn't do enough damage). Even consider getting doubled by a Falco. He would take roughly 38 damage if both hits landed. He could still eat steel from another pegasi and survive, nevermind javelins. Even chapter 21, if it's that bad you can just have him wield Armads. Only time he has ever asked for anything special, and it's probably the best chapter to make use of it.
Yeah. He doesn't double. Neither do a lot of other people on the roster. Easier problem to work around than deteriorating strength and durability. Again though, ultimately it's a lot closer than I make it out to be, but a lot of the difference between Bartre and Echidna is mostly due to overrating Bartre's speed problem and overrating Echidna's speed advantage, and that it somehow neutralizes the advantages Bartre has. I am merely trying to point out that their performance is not so gap-defining as to justify a tier difference.
Its make-up-able, I agree. But you are really pushing it to try to pretend the fact Echidna does more damage and has better accuracy isn't that big a deal. Her EP isn't exceptional but doubling automatically gives her much higher chances to actually make an impact for having bothered to expose her on EP, wheras Bartre has one chance to do damage, and potentially takes a lot more. This is not a point about crippling weaknesses, it's that it's frankly not ideal. There are many other units before Bartre that you'd rather be doing EP in these scenarios, and Echidna is definitely one of them. Frankly, if we're talking prepromoted Axe units that don't double, Garret is better than Bartre in many of these scenarios beacuse he's got even better bulk, better speed and skill, and has a much higher chance to oneshot enemies he fights. He also has terrain. Bartre is only really winning because of availability.
I repeat; just think about the things Echidna can do that Bartre can't rather than trying to narrow the argument into situations where neither are doing great. Think about how Echidna can kill Manaketes in Chapter 16 for you that Bartre isn't doing unless you grinded the fuck out of his Axe Rank, which is aids because he doesn't double. You mentioned Armads before, do you know how long it takes for him to get there? It's super unrealistic.
On 27/04/2017 at 5:12 AM, grandjackal said:Lugh and Lot: Chapter 4 is a tough deal with it situation.
The initial Nomad does not double Lugh. The one at the back comes at a point where typically you've stabilised and can surround him if neccessary easily anyway (which is a good idea to protect Shanna, Elen and Wade for that matter, not just Lugh). The only time I would actually want to use the Halberd with Lot in C4 is when everybody else has missed chip on a Cav to the point of neccessitating it to not have to reset anyway, it is not something you go for initially. You are grossly overstating Lugh's survivability problems on this map.
On 27/04/2017 at 5:12 AM, grandjackal said:I would even argue it's more notable in 4 than 7. 7's issue is that all the enemies up there have 1-2 ranged weapons. Marcus will dunk a fool or two and then get equip-traded, but honestly you're probably better off just trying to throw things at the myriad of other enemies out there and hold until you're in position to just blast through the line (so realistically, after the two aggro wyverns are dealt with). Nice, but doesn't feel necessary like it does in 4.
I mean I routinely beat Chapter 4 without using the Halberd and you have to do it in LTC so how is it "neccessary"? It's not neccessary in either map, but in Chapter 7 the point is it's reliable enough and safe enough in the hands of Marcus to have a big impact.
On 27/04/2017 at 5:12 AM, grandjackal said:Also, why the fuck are you bringing Dorothy?
Because Wyverns are fucking assholes and there are two of them that tend to come down at the same time if you're actually trying to recruit Zealot and Treck quickly before they suicide? Another Bow user is way more useful because you can do stuff like have Sue lure the RHS Javelin Wyvern to attack her on EP, whilst Lugh Dorothy and whatever team up on the LHS Wyvern to get him out the way immediately. Dorothy hardly does that badly vs the other enemies on this map too. I even said that if you want to cut her, Merlinus is probably more useful due to free death bait on one of those Wyverns and/or Convoy Warping.
On 27/04/2017 at 5:12 AM, grandjackal said:Maybe I'm just biased. I find that he requires so much coddling that I feel I might as well just use Lilina. At least she will be leveling faster, dropping nuclear bombs eventually and being a realistic support for at least a few people (though maybe not realistic. Roy is usually in someone's saddlebags, Ashtor's both not a great support for her nor is he long term, and Cecilia's on a horse. 10 to C, but still).
I actually kind of agree that at that point, I'm inclined to use Lilina instead, but mostly because he probably can't use Elfire by Chapter 8 without favoritism in Chapter 6. Realistically we have to acknowledge that he will have a decent level lead and doesn't struggle to pick up leftover kills (very common in FE6), so his promotion isn't terribly far off. Eventually ORKOing mooks at 2 range is nice, and he can do most of the same Bolting stuff Lilina does, along with Healing and Aircalibur. These are stronger niches than what Lot offers. Remember that Lot also can not reasonably be promoted till you get the second hero crest, and he's competing with units like Fir and Dieck for it, who are much better than he is. Lugh is competing with like, Saul and that's it really, and you do not lose a huge amount for delaying Saul's promotion till 14x.
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1 hour ago, grandjackal said:
First point in your post is a nitpick: in what universe are you actually hitting a boss on a throne with bolting? There are more realistic targets to try using this on.
Well in the context of super rigged PTs it actually saves turns to have Lilina bosskill/help bosskill with Bolting. In the context of regular playthroughs, I gave some examples earlier on where a Bolting Sage helps to augment bosskill reliability (there's a recording in fact). It's not accurate but the fact it's 10 range and part of an overall strategy towards a bosskill itself means it's not insignificant either.
1 hour ago, grandjackal said:About Astor: Well yeah, but I don't think I would purposefully use him outside of the chapters where I require a thief. Like, that's why talking about thieves is weird, imo at least. He's that high because he does his job while not dying to purge in 16. If we argue about gold and items, he might as well be in top. Also, I wouldn't value his combat too highly. He's not exactly outfighting Fir, for example.
Astor is pretty good to deploy in every map from his recruitment till like Chapter 16 (well, probably not 15 or 14x but who cares), and then after the routesplit there are a bunch of enemies carrying Elixirs that he can steal continously. He has enough unique utility and enough maps that it's worth deploying him that he's easily high tier material.
And uh, he actually does outfight Fir until you train her, but the point is Astor doesn't have to be trained. He can use a lot of good shit at base, doubles everything for a while, and isn't very frail either, and he has 6 mov. Like, Fir has D Swords and 5 con dude, she's basically glued to the Wo Dao until she promotes.
1 hour ago, grandjackal said:Echidna's Luck: Rutger is a weird case where he's essential to the point where we just kinda have to deal with it. It is a problem he has, but unlike Echidna, Rutger has the luxury of having an important job that very few can fulfill (and those that do don't do the job as well until Percival. It also has nothing to do between Echidna and Bartre. Point is simple. Echidna has to deal with it, Bartre doesn't.
Echidna only has to deal with it for like a handful of enemies. Basically no unpromoted enemies without critboost weapons besides Mercs and Myrms pull crit on her till like Chapter 21, and even then it's usually like, 1 or 2 at worst.
1 hour ago, grandjackal said:Weapons: Armors are not so common and unanswerable that I require an Armorslayer on every sword user. Also, you do not have a lot available. You have the starting one (which may be broken or close to it anyways), and Oujay's. You can't buy new ones till chapter 21, which is a pointless gesture because past Murdock there are two generals left in the game. Wrymslayer is an even worse case in that you only have one until Sacae/Ilia, and Echidna's not that durable. She's not exactly going to storm a wyvern pack by herself, and in that case it's less desirable than Bartre shooting a wyvern with a bow.
Waiving extra flexability beause you don't choose to do it is not really an argument. Being able to do these things is a point in her favor regardless. The fact is these options exist, and you are overstating the limiting factors. You may have not that many Armorslayers but you dont fight that many Knights, but in the cases you do it's nice to be able to use one instead of the shitty Hammer. You may only have 1 Wyrmslayer but that's still a 2RKO on Wyvern Lords or Manaketes, both of which Echidna can take hits from at base and survive. Very few units in this game are diving into a pack of Wyverns solo and coming out strong, and in the situations where you would want Echidna to do this she can still just use an Axe and distract, do more damage on EP than Bartre did then finish off with a Wyrmslayer or something.
1 hour ago, grandjackal said:Light Brand is probably the most limited commodity of those weapons. 20 uses and it's gone. Bartre can do roughly the same damage in one shot with a more common and less desired weapon that Echidna would require 2 uses of said weapon. This is ignoring that we could have been using it between the chapter we get it and her recruitment. I also don't see the situation occuring commonly where she would use it for anything more than you would a bow anyways. It's not like you would use it in melee on purpose.
There are not so many place where a Light Brand is being used that it's likely to break. Seriously have you ever broken the damn thing? I haven't, and I try to use it as much as I can. Being able to wield the Light Brand is useful for manipulating AI behaviour, or for providing reasonably reliable chip damage on obnoxious enemies like bosses, as it's 10 fixed damage in this game, and Echidna easily doubles. Rutger is probably actually mauling the boss itself and hoping he can finish it off, but there's nothing stopping us from trying to combo up and help. Echidna has good skill so she's better than the Cavs or Paladins at helping in situations like this too. Wielding it in melee can let you manipulate enemy magic users into attacking you at 1 range if you plan stuff correctly too.
1 hour ago, grandjackal said:Killer Swords are the same vein as Killer Axes, except even worse. Paying more money to use a weaker weapon that will face disadvantage more often. Also, Echidna has to fight Rutger to get a hold of any.
Paying more money as in what? I don't even break the damn things in casual PTs anymore because Rutger doesn't need one for regular enemies most of the time, and between the two you get plus the Wo Dao you have enough for bosses. Yeah you don't get to sell them for a bit of extra money at the end of the game but it's hardly the end of the world that you don't get to sell the extra 2 uses for 100 gold everytime she doubles with one. This is not a reasonable argument, you have good weapons, she can use them, there are situations where it is useful to use them, ergo that is a plus.
1 hour ago, grandjackal said:Performance: Accuracy issues I have no choice but to concede. Echidna has like 15 hit over him. The avoid and durability, however, I can argue. First off, Echidna's avoid advantage is not significant. 42 vs 34. 8 is getting there, but not too significant. However, this implies she isn't being weighed down, of which she will constantly if she wants to do any real damage. Iron reduces it to 6, Killer reduces it to 4, Hand Axes and Silver to 2. Anything heavier and not only does she have less avoid, she can easily lose her primary advantage wielding something heavier than killer. I also would not depend on Hand Axes to accomplish much of anything. That weapon is dependable in the hands of precisely no one. Even then, she's packing 19 mt with it at base. I would honestly prefer Bartre with a gun.
Echidna basically never uses Hand Axes and no unit should ever be using a Silver Axe like ever so those are kinda irrelevant. True hit also makes each point of avoid matter more against enemies since the difference between 50 and 40 hit fro an enemy is in reality nearly 20 hit, not 10.
1 hour ago, grandjackal said:Speaking of bows, you mention Sacae nad Bartre having difficulty hitting stuff. First: even with her 15 hit lead, Bartre is still more accurate with a bow than Echidna is with a hand axe. Secondly, Echidna isn't doubling a damn thing in Sacae (in fact, using a hand axe puts her in danger of being doubled herself). Even if hit rate wasn't a thing, Echidna's damage output is atrocious here. It's also where her luck takes the harshest turn, as many enemies here use short bows and have high skill. The short bow alone has 4 displayed crit on her. 60s displayed hit with an iron bow in a world where that's actual enemy phase with better defense, luck and HP to survive through it all while doing considerable damage? That's about as acceptable as you can get in Sacae. To be better, you need to actually be Miledy or Rutger (or Shin I guess).
Using Hand Axe Echidna in Sacae is a stupid idea. You give her the Light Brand there if she's doing any EP against nomads at all. Nomads do have actually significant crit on her, but they're weak enough that she isn't OHKO'd so it's not like she could never ever be exposed on EP. Bartre faces critrates from Nomads too though, and he's getting doubled by like every enemy at this point, so he hardly fairs any better. Echidna's Light Brand EP is definitely equal at absoloute worst to Bartre's Iron Bow EP in Sacae since both have to be handled with relative caution. And when it comes to PP, Echidna clearly has the better time since she can go for acceptably accurate 1 range options wheras Bartre has to make his accuracy even worse to not get doubled facing critrate again.
As an aside, Klein, Igrene and Sue all have pretty decent EP in Sacae if trained.
1 hour ago, grandjackal said:Ilia is also hardly a problem for Bartre. While sure, Echidna around now could probably use iron to do what Bartre needs silver to do (a weapon literally only they can use anyways. Also, she won't be ORKOing riders with a hand axe before we even go there), Falcoknights are another beast. First, Bartre may not even be doubled by them. Secondly, Echidna can't ORKO them without a killer crit (she can't double with silver axe's weight). Bartre with a steel bow can, however. I would also still argue Bartre is better at fighting mercs and heroes with a bow, as Echidna's speed advantage doesn't cut it against them (also, luck issues in melee)..
Again, nobody actually ever uses the Silver Axe so don't even bring it up. Bartre may not be doubled by Falcos and Paladins all the time but he is pretty likely to get doubled unless you sunk a large amount of EXP into him. His HP is big but 10 defence isn't anything to write home about when you eat 2 silver lances to the face twice. Like, I get where you're coming from here and I don't think Bartre is trash (I've even said I think he can broadly replicate most things Echidna is doing in an efficient PT), but it's kinda ludicrous to try to act like the fact Echidna is capable of having solid EP against enemies, along with denting them reliably and having a decent chance to kill them is an insignificant advantage over Bartre. I'd concede Bartre is probably better than Echidna at fighting Mercs but Bartre is far from GOOD at fighting Mercs. That's like, Shanna, Miledy, Percival, etc territory. At best it's one of his small advantages and doesn't really offset the disadvantages.
1 hour ago, grandjackal said:The number of enemies that actually double Bartre are not so common as to deter his vastly superior durability advantage. The times he does are times that are just as bad, if not worse for Echidna. Echidna's speed doesn't auto win combat due to her meh strength, and her requiring the use of heavy weapons. Swords as a side arm are questionable at best in her hands as they don't do a lot of damage, and come with crit risks. Accuracy is a thing she has, but Bartre has durability which in itself is a dependable trait, especially since he has an existing luck stat.
The first sentence is true, but the amount of enemies that have actual crit on Echidna and 2HKO are not so common as to mean she's really frail or anything. Her Str isn't really meh at all, it's 13. Swords are like by far the best weapon to have a C in because they give you access to a lot of unique and useful weaponry as I outlined beforehand.
1 hour ago, grandjackal said:As for the buyable killer axes in Echidna's route, I just remember that being something that was in Echidna's favor way back when so I thought I would mention it. As for Barrier, I'm pretty certain that matters for exactly 16x. Even with Barrier, she would still face roughly 80s from staffs. Cute, but I wouldn't say it's going to matter often. Past that, enemies will have too much magic and they'll both be SOL.
It matters in 12 because the Priests have Sleep.
1 hour ago, grandjackal said:About Ballista: The ballista will fire at your guys first, and since you are going to be sending people to clear the way for them, that will happen. The refugees are actually under no danger at all. Not even remotely difficult.
Fair enough. I've played the map before but assumed the Ballista would fire on the Civilians so I rushed Shanna to kill the Long Ballista ASAP. The map still takes much longer than counterparts and is considerably more difficult due to all the chokepoints and more difficult enemy types (read, Nosferatu Druid).
1 hour ago, grandjackal said:About Fae: Honestly haven't used her much, but do they really target her like automatically due to her low HP or something? i'm not certain if she makes the enemy AI dumb like that, so I could do with an enlightenment in that regard. If that's not the case, then so what? They just target someone else, and Fae hasn't actually helped us. But, as I said, I am ignorant in the Fae ways.
It depends on your deployment order. The units at the bottom of the list get prioritised. You can basically guarantee that enemy Status Stave users will try to status her over other targets, and she has so much Res that they pull very low hitrates. Targeting Priority for Siege Tomes is closer to what you thought, her low HP and the fact she gets doubled increases her targeting priority over other units, even if the LRT does 0 damage to her. Getting doubled is really good in this case since it burns up the Siege Tome faster too.
1 hour ago, grandjackal said:Lo and Lught: Lugh's "contributions" early on include maybe hitting a cavalier for 7 damage of his 35 HP, while this ignores things like how nomads early ORKO him, or that fighters in 5 OHKO him with hand axes. Lugh is ok in 7 in unique ways like accurately hitting a tough wyvern knight or melting down knights quicker, sure. Lot has been an actually usable and contributing unit during this time (you are probably bringing Lot to chapter 7 too for example). In fact, he is notable in 4 where a Poleaxe is most usable in his hands (Marcus probably doesn't have the rank. Marcus also has a silver lance, so he's not complaining). Accuracy sucks, but for how bad you need to kill every enemy as you see them in 4, the fact he OHKOs certain cavaliers is something only he and Ward can do (and Ward is considerably worse with it). Lot isn't just ok in earlygame, he's legitimately pretty good.
Past that, sure, he's eternally ok status. I would take ok over Lugh sucking for a majority of the game. Consider that on promotion, Lugh has 15 mag and 16 speed. With basic fire, he has 20 mt. Enemies by then will have more than 40 health, so he is still failing to do the thing you say he does. 16 speed doesn't even double a number of enemies. It's basically just enemies wielding steel axes/lances, which by then isn't a feat worth bragging about. His ass is still very kickable. Lugh probably starts being good roughly around chapter 21 where he can aircalibur down even wyvern lords, but that is way too much time and effort for my tastes for a narrow (if good) use.
There are like 2 nomads in chapter 4. This is not a big deal. Hitting Cavs for like 9 to 7 damage at like 90 hit is actually amazing compared to what most of our units in that map do. That is actually nearly Marcus tier, units like Alance are lucky to be dealing 6 damage at 70 hit, and even Dieck is hardly much better. These cavs require so many hits to go your way to deal with that Lugh's safe and reliable chip that doesn't clog up the area (because it turns into a clusterfuck when like 4 units have to surround a Cav to have a go at him) is a really big deal. Chapter 5 Hand Axe dudes do OHKO him, that's true, and he's not that great in Chapter 5 in general, but that doesn't really diminish the point elsewhere.
Chapter 4 is not the place the Poleaxe is most usable, that's actually Chapter 7 and possibly a bit beyond depending on how long you keep deploying Marcus. In Chapter 4 it's frankly bad beacuse of how unreliable and prone it is to getting you set up into KO range or just outright resulting in your death unless you're at full HP. Comparably, by Chapter 7 Marcus can easily have D Axes, and his great skill and solid speed make him pretty good at using it vs the weighted down Javelin Cavaliers. He can actually pull nearly 75~ disp hit on Cavs in that map, oneshotting basically all of them. Beyond that it is more like a worse Horsekiller but kinda nice to have as an option here and there.
I would not say Lot is "pretty good" in earlygame, merely he's a smidgen above average. He isn't really good at anything but he isn't bad at anything. This starts to change from being above average to just being plain average as the game goes on. Like, he might get deployed in Chapter 7 but it's not like he does great there or anything, and tbh the most efficient team comp (Marcus, Alan, Lance, Shanna, Sue, Clarine, Rutger, Dieck, Saul, Lugh, Chad, Dorothy) does not include him, and Merlinus is arguably better to deploy than any of the other cuttable units over Lot since he lets you Convoy Warp the Hero Crest to Rutger or act as a suicide lure on some of the more precarious EPs against enemy Cavaliers or Wyverns, which is really useful.
I don't think Lugh "sucks" for the majority of the game considering he has reach and accuracy that Lot simply doesn't. When Lugh promotes he should be using Elfire to ORKO enemies, and Aircalibur is relevant vs Wyverns starting from Chapter 13 and then like the rest of the game dude, not just Chapter 21.
1 hour ago, grandjackal said:Bors: Past a certain point, Wolf stops being necessary and can get to the village in time. As for the Armorslayer, Thany can just fly up the mountain, trade from Merlinus, then pass it over for the boss. I know he's forced in these early chapters, but his contributions are "has a pulse, most likely to visit a village". It's so tiny that I'm unwilling to accept it on comedic grounds.
The most efficienct clears of the C1 don't let Wolt get the village. In C2 Shanna should be getting EXP on the right or helping get Roy to the throne, so Bors is indirectly helping in letting her do her job better instead of having to force Shanna to do something she doesn't have to. He is actually fine at helping to get Lugh since Soldiers are shitty enemies and Wade and Lot don't ORKO them in C3 anymore (Wade doesn't even double a lot of them, pretty sad).
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4 hours ago, Slumber said:
Experience is abundant enough in Thracia that going 20/20 really isn't a problem.
There's basically no reason to wait to 20 to promote in Thracia for like, anyone. You should be promoting units as soon as possible because promotion gains are insane in that game and the enemy stat curve isn't steep. Caps are low but hitting the caps matters even less because base + promotion and Wrath Linoan, Sety and Sara can handle the lategame that you can't just skip.
Trewd isn't bad but Shiva is already a pretty superfluous unit, so a later and slightly worse version of him isn't exactly making waves.
On the main topic, just have enemies that are dangerous enough that you want to double and ORKO them and that difficult to double for classes that aren't Swordmasters. Done.
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On 24/04/2017 at 8:30 PM, XeKr said:
I edited a bit to clarify the previous post before you posted, as to not focus on the shopping part as much. Bolting just seems like a marginal thing since it has 5 uses (including misses) and accuracy isn’t that great. It’s like 40 effective hit after the throne and you then compare skill/spd/luck. I guess we can sim the 20Ix Lilina case if we’re interested enough though I would prefer to simplify it a bit (or at least nail down in pseudocode what the best strat plus contingencies are).
Yeah I understand. It mostly comes down to whether oneshotting one or two Wyverns, denting a few Paladins and Heroes, and Bolting chipping a boss or occaisonal enemies someone might miss or w/e adds a notable amount of reliability. I feel like it's a better payoff than most others in the lower tiers are doing for you though, easily.
On 24/04/2017 at 8:30 PM, XeKr said:What’s special about 16 Str and A swords? I’m probably missing something obvious. Anyways for reference:
It's the stats required to have a chance of getting him down in a single round of combat. Remember that by Miledy can be safely engaging Randy repeatedly on PP and EP and gets him down in 1 hit and 1 crit at base (or just like 4 or 5 hits depending on throne healing). You can use the Killing Edge to doublecrit him too, but the Str requirement doesn't change (I think I was getting mixed up with other bosses getting Physic'd or something) but its important to keep in mind that Rutger faces a bit of displayed crit (even on average, Goddess Icon to Rutger hype?), and is 3HKO'd, and if you do try to get him up there you're having to either have Miledy fly back to grab him (wastes time compared to having her fight Randy) or sending another flier to carry (Miledy probably had to clear the way, means you can't use that flier for grabbing items or carrying someone else like Roy) which means that I'm pretty sure the SM has to prospectively be able to make up for this efficiency drop by being considerably better at beating the boss than Miledy is.
14 hours ago, grandjackal said:-Why exactly is Astor in high? Thieves are stupid to rate, but I wouldn't say he's that great. Certainly not better than important cavaliers.
Nets a huge amount of gold via stealing stuff over the course of the game, aka more Boots. He also has above average combat in the Isles and isn't so frail as to die to LRT in later chapters without training.
14 hours ago, grandjackal said:-Why is there a tier difference between Echidna and Bartre? If it's about performance, Echidna's shitty luck and poor survivability makes her iffy in practice vs on paper. Bartre could be blind, the fact he can attack and not randomly explode shouldn't be ignored. Also, bows. Bows are a better accurate side arm than swords. Bows let Bartre actually do something in Sacae, for example. It's not like Echidna outperforms him in Ilia either.
Regarding this and other comments you were making, Rutger has pretty crap luck too man and we're not docking him for that. The reality is that most units Echidna is fighting pull relatively low hitrates on her naturally anyway, same as Rutger, and she doesn't have to engage them at 1 range either. Bartre also has much worse skill, and you're hyping up accuracy and reliability, where Bartre's only accurate weapon is an Iron Bow. It suffices vs most enemy types but do't get ahead of yourself. Bartre also starts to get doubled later in the game. I'd say Echidna does outperform him in Ilia given Echidna can ORKO enemies on EP there wheras Bartre can't. In Sacae Bartre is getting doubled and can barely hit the Nomads.
And no, Bows are not a better side weapon than Swords. Echidna can use the Light Brand, Armorslayer, Wyrmslayer, Killing Edge, all of which have good utility and give her Weapon Triangle control. Bartre has Iron/Steel/Short Bows. Chipping Wyverns is nice but we could easily just deploy Klein or Igrene instead to oneshot them, or actually stand a chance of doubling them. Bartre's accuracy is also very questionable with Steel Bows, and it doesnt let him oneshot anything.
Neither Echidna nor Bartre require us to buy extra weaponry to make good use of them, and both Echidna and Bartre like to use the Killer Axe so that logic doesn't make sense. Echidna also has an existant Res Stat so she can dodge Status Staves and stuff with a Barrier Boost, something Bartre has to gamble on.
And finally, Bartre route does get you an extra Energy Ring and Angelic Robe (and have easier bosses), but it takes longer (for both maps, assuming full recruitment, gets sigificantly worse if not assuming full recruitment), Klein and Tate get lowered stats (due to the way HM bonuses work), you have to deploy one of Lott or Wade to get useful items in the village map, and to even get the Energy Ring you have to kill the Iron Ballista, which neccessitates rigging a dodge on a flier to kill it before it kills any civilians.
14 hours ago, grandjackal said:-Lot being under Fae and Lugh boggles my mind.
Fae has unique utility for some of the more difficult maps due to her ability to burn Siege Tomes and act as a Status lure. Lugh only really has 2 Chapters less than Lot of contributions and his chip is reliable and fairly large for that point in the game in Chapter 4, and he doesn't take counters or get OHKO'd, wheras Lot gets doubled when using the Halberd against most Cavs (borderline ORKO'd, would need to be mended or protected if he misses). Lugh is also pretty welcome in Chapter 7, the hardest in the game, because he has decent Chip on most of the bulkier enemies again.
I agree with you that Lot is a little underrated and never truly bad, just never particularly good (bar vs Soldiers), but Lugh has niches early on that make him valuable wheras Lot's biggest claim to fame early is mostly just doing good vs Soldiers and existing without being trashy. Lugh does need a significant amount of favoritism to start making bigger contributions, but Lot is going to be unpromoted for quite a bit too anyway, so he's not exactly doing great either, especially since he's not as easily rescuable by infantry units compared to Lugh. Lugh eventually gets to ORKOing mooks status, Lot basically never gets there and will always be relying on crits (which is not actually terrible mind, given it's how most units in this game get ORKOs)
14 hours ago, grandjackal said:-Gonzales being lower mid hurts me, but requiring secret books to be the god he is is a thing in a game where you can buy boots. I just...want him to not be in lower mid. Please?
Can't be rescued after promotion except by unpromoted Shanna and Shin, both units who have better things to be doing. He also needs that promotion to stay relevant. He's garbage.
14 hours ago, grandjackal said:-Geese should be below Douglas. Geese is basically never competent, and requires effort to continue being never competent. Hugh costs you boots but at least he doesn't suck, and Douglas can at least not die to physical things which is a use.
Geese can break walls in Chapters 11L and 12 due to Brave Axe access (although admittedly one will have Echidna or Bartre if you were waiting around anyway at that point so 12 doesn't really count). But breaking a wall in 11L is better than pretty much anything Mr. 5 move unrescuable not that accurate does.
14 hours ago, grandjackal said:-I am the last person to talk about armor knights, but honestly Bors should be in utter shit with Barth and Wendy. Bors is in the same boat as Wolt, but worse. In fact, you're better off not using him in chapter 1 because to do Wolt's job, he has to die in the process. You are utter shit when it is better NOT to use you when I have no choice in the matter of your fielding.
He gets a village in Ch1, can help with the Armorslayer trade chain and possible rescuedrop to the Fort in Ch2, helps get Lugh in Chapter 3. Better than Wendy or Barth by that merit.
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24 minutes ago, Florete said:
I mean, you can lose him pre-Nergal and not have him for the Fire Dragon. It's entirely possible. And if that causes you to fail, well, that's part of my point.
You can lose Fae in Chapter 24 and you can lose the Binding Blade. So again, that point isn't really very relevant as a distinction.
Comparatively it's possible to actually save over your chapter 24 file for endgame so you have no easy way to deal with Idunn.
10 hours ago, Florete said:It's not about the lowest common denominator, it's thinking about a beginner versus a veteran. A beginner is going to have a much easier time in FE6's finale than FE7's based solely on how they're built. To a veteran FE7's finale might also be simple, but just about anything will be. The point is that it's not as obvious and it's a lot easier to screw it up. Given that, it feels very wrong to consider FE7's finale as simple as FE6's.
How is it any less obvious to have Athos fight enemies? Again, short of that freak scenario where the Fire Dragon rolls 40 Atk (assuming that can actually happen), he can basically just sit there Forblazing the Dragon over and over with some healing, whilst the LRTs do nothing. And this IS the beginner strat. This is not particularly more complicated than what a beginner would do for Idun.
Heck, a beginner is likely to have trained up the Lords so they could do it instead if they have enough HP.
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1 hour ago, Florete said:
Anything feels easy with experience. Metroid Fusion is a cakewalk for me because I've played it a ton, but I often hear of how people have a lot of trouble with it. Is it right for me to call it easy just because I'm so good when it's not for most people?
It's not about what feels easy and I've never argued that. It's about objective metrics. The fact that some people are bad at say, Pokemon single player does not mean that it is not easy. Fortunately the rest of your post is about metrics but I want to make this clear first.
1 hour ago, Florete said:Most of the people fighting the Fire Dragon are likely not like us. They likely do not know the best strategies, don't have the best tools to use (or don't realize how effective they are), and may have lost or not recruited the important characters. But you can't not recruit Roy or Fae, you can't lose Roy, Roy will probably be used by most players since he's the main character (and he doesn't need to be used much to be effective here, anyway), and it's unlikely that his sword will be completely used up by the time he gets to the final boss even if it does have few uses.
You can't not recruit Athos, you can't lose Athos, he comes with Forblaze and Aureola, both are tailor made to fight the Final Bosses. The story even hypes him up as a huge badass and he has shiny green numbers everywhere. Athos even specifically tells you that he's carrying Dragonslaying weaponry.
Your line of reasoning is not effective at making a distinction here.
1 hour ago, Florete said:I think it's silly to argue the ease of something based on only the best possible strategy when said strategy doesn't come naturally to people. I think it's wrong to base a game's difficulty on the skills of those who know it in and out. If Radiant Dawn's difficulty was based on my skill with it, it wouldn't be nearly as hard as its reputation has led it to be.
There are nearly infinite suboptimal strategies to any challenge though. Trying to define how intuitive an approach is requires assumptions on the part of the player. I do not accept that considering the lowest common denominator of player in a strategy game of all things (ie, someone who does not read item descriptions or do basic calculations) is a reasonable starting point for evaluating difficulty. If that were the case, basically any action game would have to assume a severe handicap or motor deficiency on part of the player too.
Basically, what's the point in considering people like that journalist who used character faces in Fates to determine if she should attack or not instead of looking at the on screen numbers? Most players posting on these forums are at least half-way informed about game mechanics after all.
Why is Hard Mode so Hard?
in Fire Emblem: Binding Blade
Posted · Edited by Irysa
The characters Lilina supports are either bad (Ostian Armor Knights, Ogier) , don't need supports to do their job (Cecilia/Astol) , or will be on a different part of the map to her (Roy, Gonzalez). She gets perpetually 2HKO'd (OHKO'd by some stronger enemy types) and only doubles slower enemies. You get plenty of good healers as it is. Lilina's actual niches are hitting some troublesome enemies (usually promoted) really hard with a nice accurate Aircalibur or whatever, and Bolting chipping. These are nice but they're not all that useful relative to the amount of effort you have to put into raising her.
On Hard Mode you should be focusing on the strongest units and keep training them so they stay ahead of the enemy stat curve and get stronger and stronger. Slowing down to train a weaker unit with not a particularly good payoff (note that at least it's better than many other bad units like Ogier) just makes the game harder, so if a player is struggling, they definitely shouldn't be trying to use units like Lilina.
To the OP, in C4 try to have Marcus move forward very aggressively to fight enemy units far out with the Silver Lance, then have him move into range of the nexts group and then lure the enemies he just fought further back with well placed other units who can hit decently hard like Dieck, Lugh and Roy with the Rapier. That should let you combo them down more easily, whilst Marcus is basically solo fighting in the middle of the map and chugging vulneraries.