Irysa
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C8 - 3/75 Turns
3 Turns
Drilled Cecille for HP STR SPD DEF.
Uninteresting rescueless 3 Turn. At least I got quite a lot of promoted kills and the Arms Scroll. Lol at Warrior Ryan doubling...I really overrigged him in Prologue.
EDIT: GDI I just realised I should have bought a Silver Bow since I didn't kill the Sniper with MU. :|
EDIT2: Redid the last turn so MU Auras the Sniper instead for the Silver Bow. Cain got the same level, Barst got a worse one.
UNIT CLASS LEVEL HP STR MAG SKL SPD LCK DEF RES WEXP BOOSTERS Marth Lord 15.05 35 16 00 17 20 17 13 00 C Swd Growth Drop, 1 Wing MyUnit Bishop 15/03.22 41 08 16 18 19 16 04 13 B Tme D Stf Palla D.Knight 12/08.28 43 21 01 20 22 12 20 03 A Lnc D Axe 1 Robe, 1 Shield Ryan Horseman 14/03.66 34 18 00 21 20 12 14 03 A Bow E Swd Cecille Cavalier 16.64 31 13 03 18 20 14 11 00 C Swd D Lnc Barst Pirate 12.13 29 18 00 13 18 09 10 00 D Axe Cain Cavalier 11.62 29 13 00 11 12 06 12 00 C Swd D Lnc Arran D.Knight 05.37 26 12 01 12 11 04 14 03 B Lnc E Axe Malicia Cleric 10.88 21 00 08 04 11 16 05 08 B Stf Cord Curate 09.73 20 02 06 06 11 07 05 08 C Stf
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1 hour ago, XeKr said:
I like promoting Rutger in C7 (convoywarp the Crest) so he can reach the boss without triggering the reinforcements early. It adds some consistency to the bosskill beyond the Marcus/Zealot teamup w/ armorslayer tradebot strat. The extra move might help a bit in C8 given how long it is. Tho Rutger probably isn’t fighting too much in C8 anyways besides maybe the boss (the promotion helps quite a bit for that fwiw). C8x is Henning. I don’t see how Rutger is getting too many more levels. Maybe Deke can get a few if he gets the C2/C3 bosskill? 14/2 doesn’t actually change much (bad math was more a factor), there’s a few numbers later in this post.
I agree with promoting Rutger for Devias if you're opting to dodge the reinforcements, but if you're engaging them (since they are quite EXP rich and relatively easy to handle) then you can delay it a little. Mind, I still tend to promote him at the start of 8 anyway, because it's not like Leygance goes down THAT easily to other units.
Dieck can take the C2 and 3 Bosskills pretty easily, but I tend to prefer to give them to Marcus as if he gets a speed proc (25%) it makes Chapter 4 much easier. In a world where we're not planning on using Rutger Dieck should probably take them though. C5 and 6 bosskills if they're set up correctly for him or if it just so happens he ends up finishing off due to whatever errant misses or crits are a thing too, as are the C7/8 ones in the same way they're relevant for Rutger.
1 hour ago, XeKr said:On Bolting, the problem I see with not buying more is tomes burn uses even if they miss. The reliability benefit to Bolting chip seems only worth it if it’s supplementing clears, not crucial to them. If relying on an inaccurate Bolting hit for the clear to work, the strat’s chances probably aren’t great. It’s good as a reliability buffer, which means using them but accepting some misses. Trying to do this throughout the mid/lategame will quickly run out of uses I think.
My point is you're not going to be buying more to use for post C21 anyway unless you have sub 4k gold and can't make up the last stretch, because it's not really that useful.. It's not a question if if you buy more or not.
I don't think there are any strats that are not just pure LTC specific that actually rely on Bolting to hit, just Bolting serving as a reliability augmentation.
Tome accuracy is a thing yeah but there arent so many uses for it that it's a huge deal. 5 seems really small but when there are only about 5 places where it'll have a more than marginal impact, it doesn't matter too much.
1 hour ago, XeKr said:I don’t think Fir deserves too much hype if she’s only improving reliability a bit. Her imagined role is predicated on being the primary mid/late bosskiller. Either Rutger is screwed or not on the team and Fir is by far the highest offense on the team, or Rutger was used but Fir took over midgame and has better stats due to the laterpromo and therefore better bosskill chances (we can just not deploy Rutger if we want the slot and only need 1 SM). Again, this depends on how costly her investment actually is, and if she actually pulls much better probabilities lategame, which is certainly not settled. I’m not really convinced myself, I just currently find it interesting to think about.
I think at this point someone just has to commit to actually doing an efficient playlog of the game and trying to train then utilise Fir for lategame bosskills. I don't have any plans to do something like that anytime soon.
1 hour ago, XeKr said:For C23, what’s limiting the reliability? The bait’s survival or the bosskiller chances or something else? What about burning a Rescue for Lalum (though that’s maybe pushing it)? Or take an extra turn or so to setup things better, with multiple combat units (we did use lots of Boots) and only use a single warp or so for Roy. I’m pretty sure that’s what I did, though I don’t recall the details.
Survival is very reliable if it's Barrier/Pure Water + Dracoshield Percival, it gets worse if it's anyone else since they probably need to dodge one of the Manakete or Brunya's Bolting.
Rutger needs to score a crit with Durandal to KO Brunya, can't reasonably expect to 2HKO (she's really bulky), and whilst 75 disp hitrate+ and 20~25ish crit is solid, that's not stellar. Energy Ring Percival/Alance can ORKO with Durandal without crits but has worse Accuracy. Trying to Warp a Refresher up is problematic because Yodel's Warp range is 4 less than Niime's, Saul probably didn't get any boots, and standing further up starts to expose more frail units to Wyverns + Ballista which is not ideal. Shin to try to finish is the only reasonable way to improve the bosskill (which isn't that bad either actually, 18 Str + Murgleis will give him two chances to finish off if Rutger hit twice with 18 Str and Durandal). However you have to either position Shin more precariously (as in, he has to survive some Wyverns), or blow a Rescue AND Warp Charge to get him into position so that Yodel's Warp Range will suffice for him to finish off which is really resource intensive and might not be doable depending on your earlier strats.
I suppose a way to alleviate this problem and save at least 1 Rescue Staff use is to have Yodel eat an Energy Ring, since then he can warp Shin from the spot he kills the Manakete into Boss Range. That still costs a Boots though and 4k gold for a reliability augment seems a liiiiitle questionable, although I suppose it becomes nearly foolproof with it might be worth it? I think I'm more put off by the extra Warp tbh.
The big reliability drop was because I thought the Druid had Nosferatu for some reason, he has Flux. That combined with some further thoughts alleviate most of my concerns so I think the strat will work fine.
Main problem with trying to go slower and sending multiple combat units up there is that there are a lot of Killer Weapon enemies with nearly maxed out attack, and you have to get rid of the enemies blocking the gate unless you do the bait trigger strat. Getting through the Manakete, Nosferatu Druid, and then KOing the boss (where you probably need a someone hit again from 1-2) is relatively demanding. Miledy Maltes the Manakete, Paladin Brave Lances the Druid, Rutger Durandals, Shin Murgleis? The Wyverns around the throne love being dicks with positioning though so trying to set up a reliable 3 turn to me seems like it's going to force you to fight more groups of enemies than you really want to unless somehow you have enough boots for like, Wyrmslayer Paladins to help make sure Wyverns aren't completely clogging the area.
1 hour ago, XeKr said:Is that something you can upload to share? Mediafire/dropbox/google drive/etc.
PM'd you them. Don't realllllly want to publically share the movie files themselves and I'd rather just document the boss stats at some point when I feel like it.
1 hour ago, XeKr said:Randy has 18 Spd so an SM with 60 crit that doubles might be comparable to Miledy with 30 crit not doubling, even factoring in the logistics of getting over there. Scott/Gelero have quite significant crit so elongated battles have relatively poor reliability (or rather, taking extra turns doesn’t improve chances as much as usual). Might show this more rigorously later.
Also I think there’s just the Isle Speedwing and the Desert Speedwing? And Miledy/Allen/others certainly compete for them.
Need 19 Spd to double Gelero in 12x. 10 base + 2 Speedwing + 2 promo means 5 procs are needed. 14/7 (15 levels) Deke has 48.45% chance of that. And again, 19 Spd doesn’t guarantee a clean win either and he still has 30 less crit.
You still need 16 Str and 22 AS and A Swords to perform notably better than Miledy given you can only attack Randy from 1 tile. Rutger gets there at like 11/9 (less with Bartre Energy Ring/Wings), which is kinda pushing it and I'm skeptical Fir can do any better without Boosters at that point.
You're correct there's only 1 Speedwings up to that point, I got mixed up. So yeah he can only take one by Gelero, in which case he isn't doubling realistically. The more I think about it, the more my problem with promoting Dieck first is less to do with Henning and more to do with how we have to ALSO pass up on training and promoting Fir for him to be the next best choice for bosskilling. This furthers the inefficiency of using Dieck (the reliability difference of using a Swordmaster against Gelero and possibly in the future with enough effort is more than enough to make up for the monetary value of the second Hero Crest)
As for the Henning stats, it's not actually that difficult to get more units into the boss area since it's broadly more efficient to have Shanna just function as a constant Give > Drop bot across the gap whilst other units expend PP picking up units to give them to her, whilst everyone else runs to the throne as soon as they get over. But I did acknowledge the shared contribution for the bosskill means Dieck's contribution there is significantly reduced. I think you may have misunderstood the original premise of why people even entertained the idea of promoting him first though, because it's less specifically about bosskilling prowess and more about general unit strength and dominant period if he's promoted early. He basically misses this period if you promote him with the second crest and his higher base level works against him due to him not really benefitting much from the EXP flooded Isles enemies. The bosskilling thing is really more just icing on the cake that he's probably the next best choice you have against many of these bosses, for better or for worse.
That being said, I think that given he is so much worse at bosskilling, compounded with the fact he might not even get the Bosskill EXP a lot of the time due to having to rely on help from other units, he's basically going to turn into pure second string and can't really be expected to keep up with lategame bosskilling, so that does knock him down a peg I think. Granted, I don't think it affects his tier placement much because earlygame matters a lot, and you have to admit, it's at least fringe entertainable to utilise Dieck against Devias/Leygance/Henning and such, wheras promoting someone like Lott or Wade first is just completely nonsensical.
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holy shit grandjackal is alive
12 hours ago, XeKr said:On Sages/Lilina: My impression is they can “chip things at passable accuracy” which was basically my rough assessment of Wolt. Sure Bolting has range but directly costs Boots lategame, and the sages needed heavy investment to get to this point instead of freely contributing.
My other qualm for Lilina in particular regards her durability though this might have to do with the fact I was also training Fir. Basically if Fir/Paladin/Rutger/whoever is killing some of the melee dudes on enemy phase, usually it’s the Hand Axe ones that survive to player phase and I think, “I could have Lilina finish this bandit at 80-90% disp hit, but if she misses I’m reseting 40% of the time. Doesn’t seem worth?”
I feel like I can be easily convinced on this matter, as some of the things described seem fairly impressive, but I figured I would clarify my initial thoughts on the payoff of sages. Basically just 2 things: if it’s not that hard to train (minor turncount/reliability impact. I guess I’ve hyped Fir but she has a semblance of an enemy phase and theoretically nice payoff in the ideal case) and if they’re improving later clears by a significant amount, statistically (that can obviously mean a lot of things, but broadly speaking just sizably enough to return that investment cost).
I mean, thats a roughly 6% chance of a reset on average against a specific enemy type that she doesn't have to neccessarily take depending on how you're setting up kills for her. Fir is facing similar chances of death of dying on an enemy phase at base level since she gets 2HKO'd by basically everything.
What I'm describing is imo not "impressive" but it is nifty. Like, playing without it isn't that big a deal, and it's not like Lilina herself has perfect accuracy (pretty average with bolting tbh, Roy support helps though), and there are ways to negate the need for it. The best uses of Bolting besides the 16x Bolting Sage to me all seem to at best be reliability augmenters, and the best use of a non Bolting wielding Sage is typically for throwing a big dent in bulky promoted enemies (Paladins, Wyverns, Heroes, etc). There are a few instances of things like say, Chapter 19I where you could drop a trained Sage on the Forest over the mountain on T1 and ORKO some cavs and put the Paladin into Horseslayer range (can steal his Knight Crest too before you do it), but these are pretty rare and obviously Lilina has difficulty doubling without a Speedwing typically, wheras Lugh eventually gets there.
As for the cost to Boots, Bolting is worth 1500 when sold, which is a non trivial amount but you're using at least 1 charge of it in 16x. You also don't need to buy them any more Bolting at the shop because tbh it's not really worth factoring Bolting uses into a reliable PT past Chapter 21 I think? Like, there's no real practical application in 21x, a Sage is better placed to help on the LHS in 22 which means no trying to bolting chip Zephiel (who is really resistant anyway), 23 unless you can somehow ORKO the Killer Ballista Sniper (need 34 Atk 16 AS so 22 Mag 21 Speed, each benchmark being feasible for one but not the other Sage) there's no real initial targets of value beyond chipping the nearby Druid so someone might not have to take a counter from the Nos. 24 lol rigging bolting crits in a reliable PT, I guess if they can double with it they can typically prevent someone taking a counter, but considering boots distribution if you're taking a Sage to 24 then they are using Forblaze more anyway. I somewhat question putting Boots on a Sage too TBH...I guess Forblaze access for 24 is nice, and I will admit Rutger kinda felt pretty auxilluary due to being forced into using a Wyrmslayer, but Rutger likely needs the Mov boost to help with Brunya and Zephiel. I suppose you could cut the mount typically used to carry Fae via just having Yodel or your Dancer take her from someone else.
Anyway TL;DR, we don't need to buy more Bolting IMO. So what we're asking for is more like 6200 range for their core items (not going to crunch what all those Tomes are worth if sold), which is about 1.5 pairs of boots. This is pretty competitive with (better than?) Fir I think since she likely needs some other Boosters too.
I basically see the tweaks to reliability and the monetary cost for Sages and Fir being fairly comparable, given Fir isn't even actually going to be augmenting reliability a significant portion of the time if Rutger doesn't underperform. The main caveat here obviously being that Fir is self sufficient wheras the Sages require quite a bit more babying.
12 hours ago, XeKr said:I think you’re getting at philosophical matters outside the territory of this metric (not to say they aren’t interesting to discuss sometimes). Please clarify if I’m misunderstanding.
Eh, kind of. I'm not really objecting to expected TC or expecting it (durr) to accomodate these factors, just more trying to add in that whilst it is a good objective metric, our application of it can be teased with a bit if the circumstances allow. Also I ran some numbers for the 23 clear, it's prob more like 30 to 40%, but I didn't account for "what if our units suck" factor either so I'm not sure it's an example of it neccessarily working (the joke being I'd have to run calcs that I'm too lazy to do or attempt to work through a more rigorous strategy...). Although you can probably say it will stretch resources to go slower too given someone like Miledy will need to spam Malte on a few of the enemy groups.
12 hours ago, XeKr said:Is there a better source for the most consistent boss stats (should we note them?). iirc sf/fewod aren't always consistent about it, though maybe some have been updated for the initial rn seed on reset stats.
If I stop being lazy I can grab all of them personally since I have movie files for every chapter to check. I typically just use them instead of site reference these days <_<
12 hours ago, XeKr said:Given the exp formula, what kind of levels and level gap are we thinking is actually reasonable here? (edit: also see question at bottom of this post)
By 18, if we're playing efficiently then factoring in arena use where applicable and bosskiller privilege I'd say 11/10 for Rutger is very reasonable, you can squeeze another 1 or 2 levels if you try probably. He was like 11/13 at 18I in my last run (got to 14 off Martel) without too much effort, but that did have a pretty big turn buffer so cutting it down by 1 or 2 levels intuitively seems correct. I don't know when Fir is promoting but if Rutger takes bosskills and promoted enemies then that impedes her ability to gain promoted EXP significantly; this is a good point to raise against Rutger+Fir team combos, the EXP pool is limited.
Specifically for 12x, I'd expect Rutger to be 11/5 to 7 by that point (depends on arena usage, 6 is prob reasonable).
12 hours ago, XeKr said:Some thoughts at this time
- too many numbers ahh
- As expected, Rutger is really important in killing Henning efficiently. Scott/Gelero/Randy/others may also be interesting.
- If we assign significant weight to cases where Rutger does not promote with the first Hero Crest, we are entertaining quite inefficient contexts based on this initial analysis. Something like 25% vs. 87% chance of overall success or reset, or on average 5+ extra turns (and still around 15+% less chance of success), with the caveats noted earlier. We should still keep that in mind for Deke and other characters whose performance depends on the usage of known, more optimal, options.Henning has +1 Speed and Def compared to SF on a reset.
Randy is not that important since MIledy handles him fairly effectively. Scott and Gelero are assholes but you do have the option to give Dieck one or two Speedwings by Gelero (although tbh I'll concede that by this point, Alance can be pretty competitive with Dieck for bosskilling).
12/1 Dieck is sandbagging, he can be higher than that. Dieck does take quite a bit longer but one has to remember that it won't take 11 rounds because you're realistically going to be having Shanna carry in more units in to help contribute (promoted Alance, Marcus/Zealot, etc). Rutger obv is a big deal and Dieck's relative contribution for the bosskill is significantly cut down due to how much worse at it he is, but he does improve at it as time goes on and he does have Durandal access that other units won't have. The biggest problem with Dieck is obviously that he doesn't have high enough speed to realistically start doubling bosses without giving him speedwings, but this is a problem shared by basically everyone who isn't Rutger, Fir or Shin (even Miledy needs help lol). Shanna easily doubles but her attack is pretty low, Lance is like the next best bet but even he takes really long time to start doubling a lot of these enemies.
Dieck basically fufills 4 of the 5 criteria for bosskilling - he's accurate, bulky enough to take hits, has above average attack, can use crit boosting/effective weaponry and can be transported to bosses pretty easily. He doesn't get the last one (reliably doubles), but his accuracy lead over someone like Alan or his Attack lead over someone like Lance, combined with their own doubling problems still makes him better at it than any non SM till MIledy and Percivcal show up.
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C7 - 5/72 Turns
Standard 5 turn clear. This Chapter is the biggest reason why I bought the Secret Shop Master Seal for Ryan in Chapter 5. Having 3 Dracoknights and 4 total fliers makes it trivial to grab all the loot and clear the way for Marth. Marth can oneshot Thieves with the Devil Sword and a Str Shard, which is handy but not neccessary.
Merc Samto fufills 3 niches; he can cover for Barst missing an Iron Axe, provides an extra heal target for the final turn, and can walk on Cave tiles to get the Physic. He's the only unit I can spare that does this whilst not getting ORKO'd by the reinforcement Cavaliers!
UNIT CLASS LEVEL HP STR MAG SKL SPD LCK DEF RES WEXP BOOSTERS Marth Lord 14.57 34 15 00 16 19 17 12 00 C Swd Growth Drop, 1 Wing MyUnit Bishop 15/02.57 40 08 16 18 18 15 04 12 B Tme D Stf Palla D.Knight 12/07.22 42 20 01 19 21 12 20 03 A Lnc D Axe 1 Robe, 1 Shield Ryan Horseman 14/03.03 34 18 00 21 20 12 14 00 B Bow E Swd Cecille Cavalier 15.87 30 12 03 18 20 14 10 00 C Swd D Lnc Barst Pirate 11.06 28 18 00 12 18 08 09 00 D Axe Arran D.Knight 05.37 26 12 01 12 11 04 14 03 B Lnc E Axe Malicia Cleric 10.58 21 00 08 04 11 16 05 08 B Stf Cord Curate 09.20 20 02 06 06 11 07 05 08 C Stf
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20 minutes ago, YouSquiddinMe said:
The point was that you don't need to use the Binding Blade on those Manaketes so the number of uses on the thing is largely irrelevant.
It's not irrelevent if both you and Paper Jam claim Roy and Fae are trivialising endgame way more than Athos does, because Endgame includes the Final Chapter?
20 minutes ago, YouSquiddinMe said:Having to rig a luna crit with Filla's might is not the same as just walking (warping, I guess, but outside of LTC when else do you warp?) up to Idun and one-rounding her.
Roy typically does not get the required Strength/Speed to ORKO Idun unless you rigged levelups, spent a while grinding him post promotion (why) or gave him Statboosters. Athos is given to you for free, no training required and can take on the entire Final Chapter, along with 2 to 3RKOing the Dragon with basically no assistance beyond like, some Healing. He is capable of ORKOing with Statboosters, and the second Body Ring improves him a lot in general.
If the sole reasoning for the Fire Dragon being less of a joke is that less than 10% of the time you have to give Athos a Robe then that's pretty poor since it's not like Roy's accuracy is perfect against Idun either. Sure, Roy 2/3HKO's Idun, but is that really any more lame than the Fire Dragon going down in 1 or 2 turns? The point is not "FE6 has a hard endgame", the point is "FE7's is also very easy".
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Those points aren't relevant to the question of whether Roy and Fae trivialise FE6 endgame more than Athos trivialises FE7 endgame. The point has never been that FE6 has a difficult endgame, merely that FE7's is not really much harder either.
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20 minutes ago, YouSquiddinMe said:
On FE6 hard mode, the binding blade kills Idun in one round (if not, 3 hits will definitely kill it). The other manaketes are weak to every other legendary weapon.
Athos kills the Dragon like 2 or 3 rounds of combat with Forblaze, or less if you use Luna. The other manaketes being weak to other legendary weapons doesn't help your argument that Roy and Fae trivialise the endgame.
20 minutes ago, YouSquiddinMe said:There are instances in the hard modes of FE7 where Athos can't stand up to the dragon on his own.
Athos can always oneshot the Dragon with a Fillias Mt + Luna crit. And as far as I'm aware, assuming the Fire Dragon can actually roll 40 attack (never seen it myself), it should only have like a sub 10% chance of happening anyway given you have to get a 9/8 into a .25 on the stat generation. Furthermore you could just give him a Robe or something, it's not like they're in high demand.
I repeat, Athos can pretty much singlehandedly take on the Final Chapter, let alone the Final Boss. How are Roy and Fae trivialising anything harder than he is?
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Except they don't? Fae is doubled and oneshot by Manaketes and Idun without statboosters or significant investment and isn't oneshotting them without a low % crit. The Binding Blade only has 20 uses and you have to kill like 20 Manaketes to even get to Idun. She is definitely not a difficult final boss, but considering Athos is pretty capable of soloing the entire endgame without much fuss I don't see how FE7's handling of it is somehow particularly better.
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2 hours ago, YouSquiddinMe said:
I mean, Athos was made to trivialize the end game in case your team was shitty. So saying he trivializes the boss is sort of irrelevant to how strong the boss is, especially since without Luna he can't outright one-shot the boss (I think?)
The binding blade and Fae trivialize Idun so badly that she's almost a joke in the community. Especially the BB.
How does this make any sense? Athos being made to trivialise the end game doesn't negate the fact he's trivialising the endgame and final boss. FE6 has no endgame trivialiser nearly as stupid as Athos (Karel is way way way behind), so given that Fae is likely getting oneshot by Idun, how is Roy' ability to roughly 2 or 3HKO the final boss more of a joke than Athos, who also 2RKOs? Because you get him earlier?
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20 hours ago, XeKr said:
I also think sometimes those who decry turncount metrics and prefer safe turtling don’t realize certain unreliable factors in the latter. For example ambush reinforcements, or bosses with existent crit, or other things late in the map that are still rng heavy or otherwise extend chapters (and are therefore very punishing because you already took so many turns/time to get there).
It's funny you mention this because I finished that run of FE6 I was doing yesterday and Miledy and Rutger both got sub 5% crit by Chapter 24 Manaketes, ending the clears 5 turns in. Fir/Shanna hype? (tho Shanna prob needs a robe and obviously neither of them can take 2 Manaketes at a time like Miledy can). Biases Percival a little too since he has high enough luck to generally avoid crits from them as well!
Speaking of endgame there, more nice uses for Bolting in C21 - Roy can provide Support as Lilina chips one of the starting Wyvern Lords so that as long as Niime dodges it (or you gave her two robes/1 robe 1 draco/she procced Hp/rolled down on Strength), she can KO it with Nosferatu, saving a Sleep Staff use or w/e (also has a decent chance to crit him too). She can also compensate for things like Wyverns rolling high on AS so that base Niime + Body Ring doesn't double, or Niime missing an attack, via finishing off at 10 range from the top of the map, with Dancer support allowing for multiple attacks. That can free up a Speedwing (since Speedwing + Body Ring Niime reliable doubles all Wyverns). This is assuming the "Yodel warps Percival + Niime into the middle of the map T1" strat which is pretty reliable overall (I used Durandal Percival to improve reliability in KOing the Wyverns that attack him). Armorslayer Miledy once again proved to be pretty great as probably the best unit choice possible to engage in Murdock's room, her CoD being by far the lowest of the choices due to high defence and no horseslayer weakness, along with a more accurate 4HKO. Though, getting to the secret shop in 4 turns was difficult without having the 10 mov flier do it, but I was able to barely squeak to it with Shanna. Well, in theory anyway, I ended up having to Warp her to it on the last turn due to a movement error I made, but MIledy killed the boss herself anyway so I didn't need a second warp on Percival to attempt to finish.
Back to Lilina though; she also doesnt have a whole lot of difficulty helping out at the top left of C22 as she can hugely dent/ORKO the General on EP (Javelin means he's not going to OHKO), and she also has a realistic chance of 2HKOing the Brave Sword Hero safely there (20/22 Mag + Forblaze, not super unrealistic), or at least helping out, with a nice big Heal if neccessary on the supporting unit. Given the player typically wants to concentrate their strongest units with high mov/boots use on the right side, this is a pretty nice niche for a second string infantry unit to have, as Heroes are a real bitch of an enemy, especially when they have Brave Swords. Unfortunately I didn't end up testing the "reliable" throne room strat as Rutger decided to doublecrit with Durandal against Zephiel, allowing for the instant clear. May as well outline that though - Roy opens door, Rutger attacks Zephiel, if he gets Zephiel into KO range for Niime + Shin they go in to attempt to finish then Roy danced to seize (or if you really want you stall another turn anyway regardless but I think Zephiel might get Physic'd if he drops too low), if he doesn't then Apocalypse Niime is danced to double Sleep the Heroes whilst the rest of the gang ko as many enemies as they can and Yodel Saint Staffs. If you REALLY want higher reliability Rutger doesn't have to attack Zephiel immediately but the pressure this puts on the LHS to get away from the reinforcements is pretty testing so I think it's better to go in hard unless you somehow have enough good units on the left to try to get further in the corridor to avoid the double Hero, Sniper+Druid reinforcement combo.
20 hours ago, XeKr said:Though I do feel that players who can devise the reliablefast clears should also easily be able to beat maps the leisurely, somewhat trivial way. Many do, and have done for years, in casual runs. There are lots of ways to beat maps slowly, using whatever team with lots of exp/gold/etc, and how “easily” is way too subjective. The turncount constraint is objective and forces optimization; that’s the point. It’s when we go too far in the other direction, and accept strats with low success chance and just the simple need to bruteforce reset through, that it becomes questionable if this is actually being more strategic/tactical and efficient (and relevant to character viability).
Sure, I wasn't disputing that taking it slower is typically simpler (my last run of this game wasn't really that fast and I didn't really ever struggle), but in many late mid to lategame maps in this game IMO there tends to be a distinct area of "extra effort" inbetween the triviality of slowing down quite a bit and bruteforcing a very fast clear. In a casual clear of a map it's all well and good to make sure nobody dies on any given turn and steadily progress forward, but trying to compute the actual worthwhile-ness of having slight chances of a reset and how many turns your "risky" action saves is often pretty vague without having to stop and crunch numbers, and trying to compute multiple parts of them together in an exhaustive manner I find often find just biases me towards either end of the spectrum. That is, "I'll just keep taking a few extra turns here and there so I don't face the prospect of a reset" or "I'll just force this really quick clear" (as long as it's like, 3 turns max). This isn't really part of expected TC, and in the earlier portions of this game (and the vast majority of other games frankly) this is not a concern, but I do think that some of FE6 is in a relatively unique position given enemy stats relative to yours + accuracy and ORKO concerns for you and enemies.
Chapter 23 is to me the pinnacle of this because with 3 Warps and Apocalypse Niime the map becomes a total joke - Dragonshield Percival (or Alan, but he got speed screwed in my run so Brunya doubled him, tbh Miledy could probably do it too), can be dance warped to reach the right forest tile near the gate and depending on how durable they are only have to dodge like 1 attack from the Manakete and the boss whilst the rest of the enemies can't scratch or have nearly 0 hitrates, and with a weak enough weapon (like a hand axe) he wont clear the way so they just try to surrounding him. Your unit's position triggers the AI to stop blocking the entranceway (I think they're tied to the Manakete) so you have a clear path next turn to Warp a bosskiller to kill Brunya (who is weighed down by Bolting so easier to hit and doesn't counter), then Warp Roy. This strategy doesn't even require a Saint Staff use and you only need to kill the 2 enemies near the start + the boss. Add a Sleep Staff on the Killer Ballista and I'm confident it has something like a 40 to 50% CoS for a 2 turn, wheras actually trying to slow down to make sure the throne area is clear so that the bosskiller can continously engage whilst still going at a reasonable pace is pretty taxing, especially due to all the Killer Weapons and likely requires multiple stall turns or Saint Staff uses. I think if one is willing to blow an extra Rescue Staff or position Shin more precariously you can also have him try to finish off if Rutger/Percival fail to kill with Durandal, (but he'd need a lot of Strength to pull it off).
20 hours ago, XeKr said:I generally don’t think we should account for planning resets, since it’s too variable based on individual player knowledge, intuition, and even stuff like theorycraft style.
Yeah fair enough. Granted though, even experienced players still learn things here and there about the enemy AI and the way they'll chose to move and attack even today, so that's not something you can act like one can generally handle as long as they are vets.
20 hours ago, XeKr said:I was mainly just talking about the overall notion that the exp pool is limited. Taking one of Allance to level 12-14 for solid benchmarks is simply less exp available for Shanna/Roy/etc than taking Noah to 10-11 for just a competent Paladin. It’s a minor factor that’s nevertheless relevant when trying to assess Allance’s utility. In their absence, some exp is freed up for others, and you still have an option for a 3rd Paladin, so it’s not like they’re super essential to efficient clears in the Isles. ofc given 8 move and solid Steel onerounds and good-ish durability, they do have some significant return for that investment. We should just keep in mind the actual costs and value in the on-off analysis.
Even if the EXP pool is limited, there are a limited amount of units that can take that EXP early on, and they are definitely high up on the pecking order. A larger limiting factor on their EXP gain is more Marcus's Axe Rank, since not only is Hammer Marcus nifty for flexability, but if you opted to get the Halberd in Chapter 3 then he makes good use of it in Chapter 7. However Marcus tends to ORKO Soldiers if he uses Axes, so that limits the EXP available for other units in various Chapters.
20 hours ago, XeKr said:It seems 24 AS is needed to double the intial Brave Bow, then Elixir/Physic spam is an option.
On reset he actually has 25 base speed so 21 AS with the weapons he wields. You could rig it down if you wanted to I guess assuming we're playing on the unfixed RNG patch or are allowing suspend abuse.
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sheeeeit. thanks for the heads up.
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Best
3 - Binding Blade
2 - Path of Radiance
1 - Mystery of the Emblem
Worst
3 - Radiant Dawn
2 - Awakening
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The 2 use Javelin thing could work but it makes the reliability of even killing him pretty sus since the hitrates become notably worse, and that Druid also has Nos. I was originally thinking of a Brave Lance to try to get him before he even counters, and it would still let you get the KO if you hit the next 2 (assuming you quad which Miledy should)
I'm not disputing the fact that the higher reliability clears with more warp can result in large disparities in better expected TCs, but merely that there is effectively a hard limit on how many "reliability" Warps one can afford to use. Within that buffer I'd be comfortable assuming more warps or possibly a slower strat depending on the map, but I'm pretty skeptical that you can afford to start taking Warps out of maps like 19S, 16X, 21X, etc, especially when we consider that it's not like the bosskills in slower clears actually become more reliable, we're just able to try to keep going without resetting. So it's quite likely in fact for them to take an extra bunch of turns due to misses and the like, which may skew it further in favor of the originally faster 2/3 turns.
I'm not averse to trying to avoid resets, but I think maybe it would also be useful to consider that longer more complicated strategies tend to involve resets in order to construct them to a point of acceptable reliability; ie, we realise we needed a different loadout for x unit to deal with y because we didn't forsee the enemy moving or attacking a particular target, etc. The shorter strategies are simpler generally, which limits the amount of resets one probably needs to do in the planning stage. I realise this is getting really abstract so I'm not saying it has to be tiering policy, but I'm interested in what you think of that.
Training Roy might be easier if you neglect Alance but Chapter 8 is one of the best places to get Shanna extra EXP before she promotes, and Noah has to soak a lot of it to promote for Chapter 9. It's also not like you can easily just shovel the EXP Alance aren't taking into Shanna in the earlier maps like 3 either, because like most units at that point she has to be handled with a degree of care. If we want to talk benefits of Noah, I was thinking that, given that ideally one funnels exp into one Cav rather than two in order to reach higher levels before promotion (12 to 14), if you've dumped a lot of EXP into one Cav and they're statistically poor, it probably takes less EXP to get Noah to level 11 or so than it will to get the other Cav to an acceptable level. This is sort of a similar argument to the Rutger/Fir thing admittedly, but that is what got me wondering about how we could apply that kind of logic elsewhere, to see if it makes sense in other contexts or if the tenants are shaky.
EDIT: also I goofed and thought gates were 2 def in FE6 fsr so Monke and Randy need +1 str on those calcs I did the other day for SM "reliable" ORKOs, jesus. I don't think either SM is really getting either of them down in one round realistically without Bartre route's Energy Ring.
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I would like FE games to be less juvenile but that doesn't neccessarily mean more tits and gore. If anything the series has gotten less mature as time went on despite the stylistic changes seemingly becoming more "mature".
5 hours ago, Flee Fleet! said:Just a question, but would FE4 be considered "mature"?
There are some mature aspects of FE4 but those parts of the game aren't really it. Those are really just part of the atmosphere and mood of the game, to add grittiness to all the hyperidealised fantasy going on.
As a whole I wouldn't really describe it as a mature game, since a lot of the way things are handled is in a juvenile manner. Sure, its more mature than the modern games, but that's a low standard to set. FE4 lacks the kind of proper character scrutiny neccessary for a truly mature work; Travant and Levin are the closest you get with Arvis and Ishtar trailing very far behind. If it had developed more on things like Shannan's lingering guilt over how he was indirectly responsible for so many of the things that happened to Sigurd's family, and didn't jumble it's own messages about trying to understand how even your worst enemies are people via making 80% of antagonists to be just be ugly assholes, then maybe it'd be more than basically a highly ambitious fantasy rpg with gritty undertones.
I think I've said this elsewhere but a FE4 where Gen 2 is heavily modified to have Shannan and Oifey as the protagonists with Seliph basically just being a claimant figurehead they use to rally their rebellion would have had a lot more potential I think. Levin kind of does that anyway but it's in a very ephemeral way because of how Forseti is basically a god. Seliph could have come into his own at some point through awareness of his role. I guess all that stuff is basically done in Thracia though so yay for FE5 (but I was totallly thinking about it when I first played FE4 too).
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Path of Radiance
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1 hour ago, XeKr said:
I have “plans” to redo the run (somewhat. >_>), probably with 0 renown, still all optional paralogues. I can personally justify no full recruitment in this game because it’s not really possible to get all the children, but we probably want Morgan so there’s small inconsistencies (just a preference/ruleset thing). Also this is kinda silly, but I think I would try to “unrig” stats that are above average, which is honestly a lot of extra reseting.
Do you have a hacked 3ds? Save/memory editing seems to be pretty developed for Awakening at this point so if you do, you could just utilise those kinds of features to prevent overly blessed Robins.
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That's a fair point, but you still effectively have to blow the same amount of Warps anyway, unless you're going to like, Warp Rutger on T2 carrying Roy which means he won't get any boss action in unless you sac Miledy's turn to drop Roy out. Roy is exposed to the Sniper/Killer Ballista if you do that too, so probably you're killing the Sniper instead. This further drags it out and makes it comparable to the alternatives. Also Warping Miledy down is somewhat less than ideal now that I think about it since that Knight near the start has a Horsekiller, so Miledy is one of the ideal units along with Niime to choke the entrance.
Basically that idea, or the "clear everything out" strat eliminate the chance of even getting a possible 2 turn, so I'm inclined towards a strat that has restore as a backup unless the warp differences are favorable.
I made this to quick reply but I'm going to compile a lost of all warps I think are probably mandatory/expected.
Mandatory is bold, italicised is workable round.
14x - If Roy is bulky enough and your 10 mov flier can ORKO the boss you can do a 3 turn without Warp but it's not great on the reliability front, so you're probably using at least 1 Warp here. You can also take a 3 Turn 1 Warp if you do something like have the Flier carry Rutger to the throne so they can both try to go at him. Either way 1 Warp is expected for saving about 2 turns and improving reliability (unless you don't have Saul)
16 - If you're going faster you need like 3 Warps to save a bunch of turns, but I'm not sure if an efficiency would actually do this.
16x - 1 Warp is possible but it's pretty unreliable and even trained Roy has issues surviving so it's more reasonable to expect at least 2 Warps, with a 3rd to possibly improve reliability.
17S - I think Warps only save like 1 turn per use on this map since you basically give your Flier more reach. If you don't have a flier or don't have a delphi shield on the flier, then you need at least 1 Warp to not have to spend an extra bunch of turns going through the forest/up and down for the bridge.
18S - You probably want at least 2 Warps to try to clear quickly but the Rescue Staff is pretty good at saving Turns on this map instead. I feel like it's very difficult to improve reliability considerably here and still go at a fast pace due to issues outlined in the other thread though, so you might be more inclined to scratch Warps entirely, idk, would have to actually run the map.
19S - 14 Mag Saul means 2 Warps, and you can't really augment reliability any more than that unless you start taking a much longer period of time to try to set up from the side.
20S - At least 2 Warps unless Roy has enough bulk to survive in the corner of the room.
20XS - 1 Warp. If Roy is bulky enough to survive Wyverns on the Forest or something you could make it 0 Warp for 2 turns I think, or if he can't Niime can pull off a Nostank and Rescue Staff Roy in instead.
17I - You can get by without Warp but it does speed things up if you have spares, 1 Warp probably saves like 1 or 2 turns and subsequent ones probably save 1 each.
18I - Same as above really.
19I - At least 1 Warp so you don't have to slog through the chokepoint. Bosskill isn't that unreliable either.
20I - At least 2 Warps, more to improve reliability.
20IX - At least 1 Warp, probably 2 Warps, unless you can meet certain criteria for getting away with 1.
21 - At least 2 Warps. They each save a significant amount of turns each, I don't think subsequent ones do much besides improve reliability.
21X - You can get away with 1 Warp if you aim for the 2 turn but at least 1, probably 2 Warps otherwise.
22 - At least 2 Warps.
23 - At least 1 Warp and 1 Rescue, but each subsequent Warp improves reliability quite a bit (since you get to hide more people further back away from Ballista/Wyverns)
24 - Probably 1 Warp, mostly just for turn saving since the last throne traversal distance is massive, so it can be passed up on if you ran out before.
You basically only seem to have a buffer of like, 1 or 2 Warps/Rescues for improving reliability before you kind of can't get away with it anymore. Ilia is more leniant at least maps like 18 or 19 are more reasonable for progressing through normally which can save Warp uses for when you really want them. This also helps to improve the case for training Roy, since the bulkier he gets the more Warps you can dedicate to trying to make bosskills more reliable.
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2 Warp 20I isn't quite as bad as dondon's 0% as long as you have a SM with the benchmarks, a mount (that is going to get Berserked) is warped with them to the throne room and either drops them to EP the boss or drops them back a little to EP the boss themselves before the SM goes for the finish. I didn't formally crunch numbers but typically there's a more omnipresent CoD for the SMs if they have to EP and PP but the CoS of the bosskill goes up. I'm pretty sure the CoS of that strat is in the 20%s though since I recently did it the other day and I repeated it enough times to not seem super unreliable.
You can't really keep extending your clear properly without warping in someone to Restore the unit getting Berserked in the throne room or doing the clear half the map to absorb Berserk stuff (which would save warps at least), but Staffers don't exactly cope that well with Killer Ballista/Killer Bow Sniper.
Thinking about it, if willing to blow extra warps, you'd probably do some shit like warping Saul into the boss area on T2 to Restore the mount, then mount has to kill the Sniper, SM probably Elixirs or attacks Roartz again, and you continue moving towards the throne area with everyone else, clearing enemies out along the way. If the boss goes down before you get into rescuechain seize range with Roy then you Warp him in, if not then you rescuechain him to the throne (Killer Ballista is probably out of ammo by then, and the Warp would only save 1 Turn w/o improving reliabiity).
This is like, a 2 Warp 5/6 Turn or a 3 Warp 3/4 Turn though, which is relatively demanding.
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I think the problem with computing the total reliability of that clear is that it can technically go to 4 turns and beyond if enough things go your way too, or if you decide to extend it. Like, if Lilina dodged a hit from the Archer attacking her on T2 EP, and/or Miledy isn't too low then Saul can heal/restore a target and you can continue trying. But Lilina is pretty likely to get hit, and Miledy is likely to need healing, so you'd probably have to Elixir with Miledy on T3 if you were trying to commit to beyond 3 turns so Saul can Heal Lilina. Fae might also be Berserked but I think the strat can compensate for that by having her move into a position on T2/3 where she doesnt threaten Saul or Lilina. And the "Roy gets the final hit" depends on boss HP fluctiation and is basically run over if you go for it though (so prob not worth it).
There's also the fact the Druids will Physic the boss if he drops too low (I think sub 20 hp does it), which typically means if Lilina (or Roy) failed to finish the boss after 2 Armorslayer hits on PP, then he gets healed for like 41 HP (counting throne healing) and Miledy has to connect 2 Armorslayers again (at least) across 4 attempts/Lilina has to connect at least 1 Bolting. I think adding the Bolting adds a non insignificant amount of extra reliability to the clear because of this. If Miledy just had to connect 3 hits then it wouldnt be as a big a deal.
SM strats are likely more reliable but like I've said, you have to blow an extra warp, so you're losing at least 1 turn/reliability elsewhere. Give and take.
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Good point on Zealot basically being forced for Chapter 7, I think it's fair to assume he's basically always in play then. Protip though, the Barrier staff is in the other C7 Chest, that's pretty damn useful lol.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/135099807
This is a bit of a tangent, but I have a sort of proof of concept thing here to demonstrate some ideas that are relevant to tier placing. This is basically 40 minutes of repeated attempts (I get a lot of successful clears mind, just I reset anyway on success to keep testing) with the unfixed RNG hack to 1 warp 3 turn 20IX, but with a heavy bias towards improving reliability. The entire run itself wasn't exactly a full LTC or anything but it's still useful for demonstration.
- Armorslayer Miledy is something I think we've been sleeping on for a while. She's actually better than Percival at some annoying bosskills if she can reach it, especially since she nearly always is taking the Boots and has higher skill. No Horseslayer weakness is also good for C21. However, I'm not sure how easy it is to get to D Swords for her since she joins rather a lot later than say, Shanna. Someone would need to actually do an efficiency playthrough and attempt to grind her Sword Rank to see how feasible it is. Getting her D Swords might also mean she can't get to S Lances which would also royally suck.
- This is a good example where training Roy helps save Warp uses and improves reliability. Getting a bunch of HP, having C Swords for the Light Brand, improving resistance/def/speed a bit all mean he can be dropped safely in the spot I placed him as the Shamans aren't very interested in attacking him with a Pure Water/Barrier Boost. He can also take the EP afterwards as long as he heals himself up. Also mind, this was a speed screwed Roy so he got doubled once by a high rolling Sniper, but that was really rare.
- Bolting helping to improve reliability. Lilina's extra chip on the boss helps to make Miledy's bosskill more reliable, and she can also finish the Swordmaster if Miledy misses one of the Brave Lances. I didn't rig her this playthrough but she does have definitely way above average speed, but it doesnt really matter since the Fighter is pretty damn slow and so is the Archer, so she's not really at risk. The mag requirements to meaningfully help out are a bit high I suppose though, but to me that's more of a strike against Hugh and Lugh for being unable to really have a chance in scenarios like this.
- Fae's ability to lure and have good chances of dodging status helping to free up actions for other units.
If you cba to watch the video, the basic strat is as follows
Roy Pure Waters, gets rescued by Miledy. Cecilia Barriers Miledy, Elphin refreshes. Niime warps Miledy to the central room, Miledy moves up and drops Roy in a safe enclave. Fae and Saul break a wall for Lilina to start moving into position so she can Bolting and Saul can Physic if neccessary. Bartre (Echidna's fine here too) and Percival net EXP at the bottom, Shin and Alance (Zealot is fine for one of them) grab some EXP at the left.
Miledy Brave Lances the Killing Edge SM on EP whilst shrugging off his attacks. If she missed a Brave Lance then Lilina can attempt to Bolting to kill the SM to ensure Roy can try to move into seize position. Miledy tries to get in some 50~60Ish Armorslayers on Tick, with Lilina contributing to try to get in extra damage if possible, as it's a 3HKO. If Tick doesn't roll high on HP then Roy can also attempt to finish off at around about 40ish hit with the Light Brand. but he's most likely popping a Vulnerary. Saul Physics whoever, depending on who needed healing the most. The other units are mostly again just working together for EXP but if one really wanted to then someone like a mount carrying Rutger could be warped up to try to assist on Turn 3 too.
However if you were willing to commit to 2 Warp then probably Warping a mount carrying a SM up on T1 and Sleeping the Swordmaster T2 would be a better choice, although the survival rates against the SM and Shamans on EP would kind of suck for anyone not Percival or Miledy on T1. Sleep is also a pretty valuable resource. If the Shamans and Druids play nice you could Warp Miledy and protect the SM like I did with Roy instead, then Warp mount + Roy on T2. You'd still want a Roy capable of surviving EP there though, so more reasons to train him.
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Changed my votes a bit because I'm feeling spiteful towards Kris again.
Best
3 - Binding Blade
2 - Path of Radiance
1 - Shadow Dragon
Worst
3 - Radiant Dawn
2 - Awakening
Not voting 1s on worst until these two are out.
22 hours ago, NekoKnight said:I'll be interested in hearing about why people score games the way they do. For example, I value story a lot so it is a significant priority (that's why Conquest scores lower than Birthright in my book).
For me it's a "complete package" kind of thing. I'm voting the games up highest that I think that are solid all round. New Mystery is a difficult one for me to reconcile because I like the gameplay a lot but really dislike particular things about the overall design process WRT the self insert, so sometimes I feel like I think it's easily better than Shadow Dragon or Path of Radiance, and sometimes I hate it so much that I want to rate it really low.
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The Manster arc is probably the best part of any Fire Emblem ever. Whilst many of Kaga's games strive to achieve mechanical and narrative fluidity, the harmony of how things work together in chapters 4 to 7 is really remarkable, you absoloutely feel the sense of desperation that Leif and his allies are experiencing as you scramble around trying to run for your lives. Trying to save others is pretty damn difficult too, and it's tempting to just ignore them, which is in line with how it actually would be.
Obviously the interconnectivity doesn't stop there but there's probably too many things to talk about in this sense
and I've made too many high effort long posts lately that barely anyone reads so I cba -
Rather than specifically Shanna and Miledy not being in play, it's more at least one. Both being gone is an extreme, but she does benefit from it to an extreme degree too, so whilst it's not heavily weighted, it adds a non insignificant amount.
I also don't really accept a "Marcus gets dropped" scenario because if you're already using him, it becomes too arbitrary to stop using him, so basically Marcus is practically assumed to be used as much as possible in every playthrough since he's effectively forced from the start. Even in draft contexts he tends to be free.
I haven't tried to do Chapter 7 without recruiting Zealot on HM so I can't really reasonably consider how assumed Zealot actually is. I think you're underestimating Zealot's weapon ranks though, Silver Lance access is a great help vs Mercs, Myrms or Archers and being able to use the Hammer instead of the Armorslayer is somewhat useful too. Even if he's not actually fighting, Zealot also helps you get the most out of units like Rutger a lot.
I suppose the thing about Zealot is that he's such a good package of useful traits for your team, and has clutch in C7 and C8. I don't think Alance ever actually have "clutch" moments in a regular playthrough, so whilst sure, they exist during the hardest parts of the game, the relative effect they have in Chapters 1 to 6 is IMO less than Zealot has for just C7 and 8.
I do see where you're coming from though and these points are less about outright disagreeing and more trying to make counterpoints - for me I actually feel it's too close to rate Alance and Zealot differently, and whilst I think Tate might be slightly above it's so marginal that I'd think it even too.
I lean towards Sue > Noah/Zeiss too but I think it's difficult to entirely waive the effort one has to put into training her when she's not strictly needed and is worse in a bunch of scenarios due to lower con/lower strength (can't use the Longbow or Brave Bow as well as Shin can, will very rarely ORKO enemies without effective coefficient even once trained).
As for Shin being that high, I think I can agree bumping him to below Niime, but his focused offence is really strong after only a bit of training, and FE6 is a game where accurate and powerful PP is a good niche, especially when you have high mov. His EP isn't even consistently bad, he has a bunch of Chapters where it's better than others (10E, 11L, 12, 16, basically all of Sacae). He also has a way better lategame than Alance do because 17 range Dragonkiller that doesn't take a counter is nuts, and he's also one of the few units that can help out with killing Zephiel.
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It's pretty cool to see the VV combo end up crushing in maingame too, since I've only really typically thought of it as postgame nonsense. Once again, the power of Veteran and Second Seals combine to break the game even more.
I really doubt I'm ever touching Lunatic+ again, so this has been a nice way to revisit it, thanks for your continued writeups. I hope there's something insane like a C24 1 turn you still have to show.
21 hours ago, disjunct.ion said:Amusingly enough, thanks to the unique nature of this game(mode) and playthrough this is the first chapter I know of that has a lower documented turncount on a higher difficulty mode than its lower difficulty counterpart; the two fastest vanilla Lunatic LTCs I know of finished this map in 5 turns.
I think commonguard beat some prior H3 records for FE12 in H4.
I don't get this bit...
in Fire Emblem
Posted · Edited by Irysa
You don't even need Athos to handle both the Final Chapter and the Fire Dragon though, you can use the units you've been using all game there too. Even 0% can get away without Athos. Beating Idun without using Roy or Fae is actually kind of annoying because she's bulkier, has displayed crit on just about everyone, 2HKOs everyone, moves, and there's endless Manakete reinforcements that combo with her for 2HKOs. You're also not in range of her on Turn 1 unless you used a bunch of boots or have remaining Warps. The Fire Dragon does not move, the Bolting Sage/Sleep Druid can never combo onto the person fighting the Fire Dragon, and the other guys can just be ignored entirely. You even reach it in 1 turn without doing anything but walking up.
It's silly to make an argument about how difficult a boss or chapter is if we exclude the best possibly strategy though, so I'm sure nobody's keen to accept that kind of logic, but in that case, why negate all the tools you have at your disposal to trivialise the Fire Dragon? Trying to act like somehow it's somehow more difficult to have Athos just attack the Fire Dragon with Forblaze (which he comes with ffs) whilst someone heals him, even if he didnt get any Boosters is being really disingenous. At worst it just takes longer. Is the tier of difficulty now decided by how many turns it takes to kill the boss from the worst possible player?
The fact is Athos is just a much better unit than Roy or Fae are, both in the Final Chapter and against the Final Boss, and this really cannot be argued against. Meaningless point scoring around on which has the most difficult endgame overall is pretty fruitless given they're both simple. Maybe FE7 has more illusion of being a bigger deal than it really is because you have to possibly enter combat with the Fire Dragon a few more times and Nergal is more present in the story than Jahn is, but I can easily just flip that around and point out that Zephiel (who is effectively a Final Boss in his own right) is a huge arsehole and more annoying than any enemy in FE7 period.