commonguard

Disappointed in the C6x turncount. I expected some careful positioning in order to save a rescue use and avoid killing Radd and Caesar while keeping your team alive. Good job on C5, glad you decided to take out the snipers even though you didn`t have to.

Luke can weaken the warrior for Marth to kill, or just outright kill the warrior. Palla or someone with low enough LUK can take a hit from the other warrior while MU blocks the longbow sniper. Sirius could also use the Master Sword as well (same crit chance I think).

Bow forge should be made, and I prefer a +5Mt +10Hit Steel forge over a +8Mt Iron forge, but some conditions of playthroughs may encourage or even force the Iron forge. As for 4 turning C17, I`d say the benchmarks are too high to realistically reach without the RP. Max STR, SPD Paladin!MU that needs to hold the Starsphere. Max STR, high (28+) SPD Horseman with A bows equipped with a 13Mt bow to guarantee 1RKO warriors (needed if you want to access the save point with MU on turn 2) Sniper capable of 2RKOing the enemy sniper near the start, and tanking 2 DKs on turn 3. Hard to imagine those units are available without the RP. The DKs at the start are pretty easy actually. Sniper!Caeda should be able to double the Spear!DK on EP. Etzel can take on the other lance DK and SM!Linde or SM!Sirius with Mercurius can probably 1RKO the axe DK. Linde might need another dose of Spirit Dust and Sirius might have too low SPD without the RP or statboosters but maybe Wo Dao crit could work.

What the? Doesn't your guide say something about Linde being able to double the generals in C8?

If we are talking rainbow potion, Luke doesn't need an Iron bow forge. Level 9 Knight!MU turned pirate has like 14-15 STR. With RP 16-17 STR and should be at 14 SPD with RP. A +3/4 Mt +10 Hit forge costs like 1600-2400 (1120-1760 without the hit). This forge allows MU to 1RKO non-boss DK's. Going by your C2 strat, except switching MU and General!Arran's positioning during the DK pull, MU can 1RKO one of non-boss DKs on EP and after being healed by Malicia can KO another DK. You should easily have enough fire power left to KO the remaining enemies. Arran can Silver lance that cavalier that hits Marth, Gordin can KO the DK that attacked Arran, Ryan Steel and Luke unforged Iron can KO the boss, Draug, Warren, Catria can do their thing. Luke at this point could semi-reliably have 11 SPD as a hunter, RP + speed wing is 15. He should very likely have 10 SPD, which is enough to double DKs if the spawn with 10 SPD (which isn't rare and you only need 1 of the DKs to have 10 SPD. 1RKO dracos without a forge. Pretty sure a forged bow won't be necessary in C5. The next time you need a forged bow is probably C9, at which point Luke will have D bows on his own, and you can just forge steel when money isn't as tight. Iron axe forge seems sketchy but it gets MU more exp and it laxes the DEF requirement for your 9 or 10 turn of C5 since MU would have WTA vs. the DKs. It also gives you some much needed wiggle room for your early bank, if you want to buy some more early statboosters. I usually don't arena people more than once (just before their promotion to top them off). But I have once tried to continually arena Marth once. The first time he has a pretty okay chance at winning, but after a while he has difficulty winning against even cavaliers with the rapier equiped. How hard is it to win in the arena after a while? How much does it cost? 3 unconsecutive wins gets 1 level, 6 will get 2 I imagine. Cost is like what at this point for promoted units? Say 1.2K a fight, 7.2K (before counting the additional gold added for multiple arena fights) total. Maybe you could try for a small streak? If you are just going to top levels off, can you count on being able to do it in between chapter? Still, those might be some hard fights if you've arena'd him before.

Upon Redwall's veiled request suggestion, I started this thread. Continuing on from Redwalls H4 efficiency thread... If you forge steel without +10Hit you save 2000 instead of 1000 but you delve into 80% displayed hit territory. IFAIK C3 save point is used by Arran or Palla after all the DKs are killed. Not to mention Jake needs to hit the wyrm in C11 on turn 4 EP... the save point is reached on turn 5 I think. That's some shaky accuracy. Sure he saves gold by not needing armscrolls, but in return needs the coveted Speed Wings. Hey, at least I'm legal and jerking off to a grown man as opposed to giving a prepubescent child a bunch of speed wings and stripping him with my eyes. Linde isn't being fielded as an SM in all dragon chapters, and when she is she is either setting kills for Marth or blowing low RES targets out of the water. So she doesn't need a forge. I do however forge a +2Mt wyrmslayer forge for Marth to KO a dragon weakened by Javelin!Palla in C14 that is useful for Sirius/Luke in the late game dragon chapters. Wyrmslayer forge is not silly. She's costly but she saves turns. If we are talking about guarantees you better take the 3 turn vs. Cain and Est of Ryan's resume. Palla needs 22 SPD to function (double dragons), you probably shouldn't bank on her getting more than 3 on her own before dragon chapters. With RP she needs 1, but without she needs 2. You're probably right, we won't convince each other. However I just thought of something crazy because of your post. And I might be able to convince you of something else (or maybe you already had the belief). *INCOMING CRAZY TALK - READER BE WARNED* THIS... just gave me a crazy idea. Never thought of this. Okay so 8 Speed wings. Palla gets 1 (16 base + 3 speed procs in like 9 level before dragon chapters + 1 arena rig + wing = 22 SPD), Ryan gets 4, Marth and someone else gets the other 3. Ryan needs to be like 16/14 as a horseman to max SPD on average. Definitely possible, and SPD requirements are very doable with RP. What is Luke contributing? AFAIK Luke isn't saving turns anywhere and he isn't saving any potential money. He's just a glory hog being the horseman. Linde + Ryan > Linde + Luke? All 9 Speed wings and Luke not being fielded allows the ones you allocate to him to be given to Ryan, fixes Ryan's SPD issues and your endgame horseman ready. Hell, Palla can get her 2 Speed wing even. Holy crap. If you field Ryan as a Myrm/SM long enough he can get enough to hit D Swords as a horseman, then 1 armscroll for C sword.. is Luke worth training? Reason is because I think you can admit Linde has a niche role as a speed demon hitting RES that Ryan and most other units (may be able to partially compensate for in some ways) but can't replace. Ryan can however replace what Luke is doing for you if he gets his coveted speed wings.

Hate being new to forums, no idea how to split quotes, so do this the stupid way I guess. Regarding PKL "That's a lot of sandbagging and stuff." Well I never used him and I admitted to being biased against him so what'd you expect? "Ryan contributes immensely throughout the Prologue, being the only unit to allow recruitment of Ogma and Est without losing turns to the other alternatives. Which in turn saves turns in P8." Yes his contributions in prologue are amazing, especially in allowing Knight, Merc, and Myrmidons clean 2 turns of Ogma's map, and obviously instrumental in Est. But in P-8 unless Ryan is doing better than the standard 9 turn pretty sure he's just leeching exp like Luke or Rody (H3). I suppose he is better in H4? "Contributions out of the whazoo in Chapters out of the Prologue (Chapter 1, 2, 3 and then Linde and him are pretty much tied except for Horseman vs Sage later on, which Horseman clearly wins)" Pretty sure he can't 1HKO DKs without a forged bow. He saves like 1k because you can +5Mt +10Hit Steel instead of +8Mt Iron (Steel hit rates are pathetic). As for Horseman vs Sage, yeah horseman is better, but have you seen Horseman!Ryan stats? "Supports more units, so he can cheese some chapters as Myrmidon/swordmaster to build sword rank while also saving turns." H3 and up, unless there is a save point or you have contigency plans (like I only need a dodge on turn 2, or on turn 4 or something to that effect) this is probably unreliable. "There's 9 Speedwings in the game. 3 of them aren't before Chapter 21 so let's say 6. Units that want them 100% of the time:" I count 4. Palla gets 2. Sirius/Marth/Luke get the others? "Has options to fix his borderline spd in Rainbow Pot, Speedwing and Swordmaster/Sniper" I think Linde does SM better. RP + Speed Wing Sniper can probably double DKs though and Linde would need alot of help in 1RKOing dks with a levin sword. "Sirius (but screw this guy he's overrated and trash mid-longterm)" Agreed, but if you shove boss and dragon kills down this guy's throat he can reach like level 14 going into C15, and he could be getting a few of his levels as a Hero, a class in which he has actually good growths. I'd say he's better than both Linde and Ryan. "Horseman is the best endgame class. Sure, Linde can be a nice Gharnef Killer, but heck, even H2 warpskip Etzel can pull that one off. And that is considerably much faster than Lunatic." Strange arguement. Horseman is probably the best endgame class, too bad Ryan isn't the best endgame horseman. To be fair, if you put all the spirit dusts on Malacia and give her an armscroll, you could probably reach the 27MAG needed to 1HKO with a crit even on lunatic reverse. Basically Linde shouldn't be counted as the Gharnef slayer if we are assuming crits or warpskipping. Just like Ryan shouldn't be counted as a good horseman because Luke can Armscroll it up for bow rank. Having Linde as the Gharnef slayer does put less pressure on Malicia's SPD requirement and perhaps indirectly? Etzels staff rank. "His personal bases aren't bad for a Level 1 unit that has all the availability in the world and worthwhile contributions" Not really his bases, it's his growths. And let's not kid ourselves with worthwhile contributions (at least in chapters). No units other than like MU, Palla, Caeda, and maybe Catria are doing much other than leeching exp and chipping in for kills which they are probably just chipping for exp so they can be less useless anyways. Until promotion, I've found this to be the case with even Catria for the most part. This is mostly the reason why I completely avoided early chapters since they are just exp farms for the mid and late game chapters. "Requires Shaver, which isn't even obtained, to do what Ryan does easier in the desert. I'm sure she also can't really OHKO wyverns even with a shaver unless it's forged." Ryan can't 1HKO without a bow forge (6K)... but yea shaver stupid item so moot point. Eh, I'll respond to the rest later. Edit: finished responding to PKL "Can Nosferatank later on in Chapter 15. Not a unique contribution because Malicia exists and it's entirely possible to have her ready to do it. But it's a nice thing going for her if you put up with her training." Do you think speed wings grow on trees? "Not unikely for her to be OHKO'd later on even with a robe with her amazing 40 hp and 5 def growths." This is only half true. While she is still facing a very real chance of being 1HKO by C4 bandits with 30-31 ATK, the enemies on some of the later maps have less ATK which she can tank with the robe. Next big milestone for survivability is C11, acquiring 17 SPD. She can do this in H3 by way of a Nosferatu winning streak and a promotion which would also give her the HP and DEF boost to avoid being 1HKO'd. From here she shouldn't have any issue tanking hits. SM!Linde can definitely tank a hit without issue. "Ryan has the option to go Swordmaster in Ch12 with actual strength and use a Wyrmslayer to ORKO Fire Dragons or he can go Sniper if Wyverns are your target." Gonna use Redwall's C9-C12 here to support my claims for this one (yay, for making this more about Redwalls playlog instead of just Linde vs. Ryan). Redwall opted to field Yumina and Linde as the staffers on top of Malicia. I have no idea why (but I speculate oversight) he didn't just field Linde and Etzel (replacing Yumina's role as the second Physic staffer). In C9 he can get at minimum 1 staff use but probably easily can get 2. In C10 (if you opt to field him he can easily get 2 uses without Feena dancing (on H3) and 3 without dancing on (H4). In C11 he can get 4 uses -- with proper positioning he can mend MU and Sirius on turns 2 and 3 (I forget which one he mends first) and 2 rescues for the 5 turn. He can easily get the 8 uses to get to C staves as a Bishop. In this case Linde is just the other mage (not contributing anything to note but not being useless). SM!Ryan is doing basically the same thing (except he's taking a combat role). He has the option to do what most combat units have the option to do. I'll give you that his contribution is probably more than Linde's contribution to C12 and he's probably gaining levels here that Linde isn't but he still isn't saving those coveted turncounts. "Gharnef isn't such a threat that he needs a unit specifically trained for the job." Agreed. In all honestly, I don't think Linde is the best answer to Gharnef, I whole-heartedly believe Malicia after being given an armscroll should just crit Gharnef. The thing is SM!Linde can make certain enemy types (some of those durable bandits in C13, Warriors in C17, axe DKs, ballistas, etc) that would probably be 2RKO's for some people into a clean 1RKO (at range - no counter taken usually) with the help of Spirit Dusts. Then at that point after you've given her 2 or 3 Spirit Dusts you might as well give her the rest and make her the Gharnef slayer. Seems like an incredibly biased arguement I know but she has a very niche role that almost no one can replace completely, and most people can only hope to partially replace. "Her Aura only lasts 25 uses, while the Bow forge lasts more and there will come a time when Ryan won't need it." Aura should last you till C22, at which point you have Starlight, which is basically Aura. I'll give you that Ryan can't even be billed for the Steel Bow forge since it's necessary for 5 turning C11 and having Jake visit the secret shop. "She's better vs Ch5 snipers. Although deploying both is often beneficial in that map." I forgot about this. Yeah, she's pretty useful for pulling the snipers nicely and dealing with that Dragon in C7 (she might need some help tanking the hit on H4 but she deals a massive chunk of damage to it so she can get some nice exp. Although Ryan isn't doing much most bow users can't. Best thing I can say is he probably isn't being doubled by 14 SPD DKs in C5. "Linde has epic durability issues which limits her exp growth per chapter." I've said this before but no unit (outside of MU, Palla, Caeda and sometimes Catria) are consistently doing anything noteworthy except taking kill exp before promotion so they can be useful at promotion. I'll admit that I did have to give Linde quite a bit of favouritism (some boss kills that would've normally gone to Sirius or Palla), favouritism Ryan would not need. Still potential wise, I don't see Ryan>Linde. For the record: I know I seem (and probably am) incredibly biased towards Linde, and I've already stated I'm biased against Ryan. His contributions in the prologue are much more than non-existent Linde and even more than Luke. But does his potential warrant a permanent position or does he only qualify for a temporary role?

I've never actually used Ryan because... well he's an archer by default (basically I'm biased against archers, hunters and default bow users in general, except for Innes from FE8 - that guy was cool). I have however used Linde and I have disagree and say that Linde has more potential than Ryan (at least with Rainbow Potion). As you pointed out they both need statboosters with Linde needing Spirit Dusts rather than Speed Wings, which units like Palla, Luke, Sirius and possibly even Marth make much better use of. Linde needs a resource that goes to the designated Gharnef slayer (which is probably Linde if you are using her). I'm quite confident that in efficient play it is possible to get Linde to Lvl 15/4 before C14 which I think is a pretty hard chapter to 5 turn because you probably wouldn't have the offense for it. She'll probably end up getting two levels as a SM so she'll lose 1 MAG on her average. If you give her: Capricorn Scorpio (every other combat unit should have 22 SPD after Rainbow Potion anyways) C11's Spirit Dust (pretty much hers by right of birth and blood because she's the Gharnef slayer) Buy her another Spirit Dust from the base shop Rainbow Potion usage She can as a 15/4 Sage (with 2 levels as an SM), 1RKO Ice Dragons and 1HKO theives with Aura. She can also, depending on how many Nosferatu charges you want to use, tank and 1RKO the dark mages on the EP after healing someone who took out a dragon on PP. Sounds like the kind of offense that could clear C14 in 5 turns. In C13, I think I had her kill the LHS Barbarian from range on turn 1 and set up a Wyrm turn 2 for Marth to kill on turn 3 and eventually had her cross the river to 1RKO that theif who pilfers the wyrmslayer. If you want to go a bit crazy and start investing in more spirit dusts and forge a +1 or 2 Mt levin sword she can 1RKO beserkers up to C21. She'll double as a SM for as long as doubling is permitted and not just some enemies, she also doubles the faster enemies like theives. How many units can say "I, as a Sword Master, can double theives"? On the other hand we have Ryan who even as a Lvl 20/5 Sniper with the Rainbow Potion can't 1RKO Dragons, Fire or Ice. Sure he can 1-shot Wyrms but anyone can 1-shot Wyrms with a forge. I guess with a Rainbow Potion, 1 shot theives with Parthia but is it worth it? And again I've never actually used Ryan so I don't really know what he can contribute. If we assume no Rainbow Potion Ryan is probably in even worse shape because the statboosters he wants (Speed Wings) are the same statboosters Palla, Sirius, and Luke want as well. Granted I gave Linde 3 statboosters (Angelic Robe + 2 Spirit Dusts) and Ryan none, but I have no idea what boosters to even give him. And don't say Speed Wings. Without Linde, you have 4 Speed Wings available and Palla is probably calling dibs on 2 with Sirius claiming 1 or 2. Maybe even a pre-C21 Speed Wing for Marth. I've done a run on H4 where I got Marth to level 19 or 20 by the start of C15. In C10 he got the sniper kill (set up by Palla), and a beserker kill in 10x (set up by Linde and I think Horseman!Luke - Linde ended up being like a point or 2 shy of setting up the kill on her own with all magic shards). He also got both wyrm kills in C11, 3 Dragons in C12, a wyrm in C13 (set up by SM!Linde no less), and 2 Dragons in C14 (needed a +2 Mt wyrmslayer forge for these two). With a Speed wing he would have enough Speed to double Generals in 15 and 16 (the latter being more interesting). A +3Mt Armourslayer forge would also allow him to 1RKO said generals. Basically instead of having to rescue Marth into the throne room, you could instead dance marth after he kills the general, (rescue the geosphere theif killer instead), and have an additional combat unit to kill the Fortify Bishop (if you really want you can sell it for 1500 or forgo the purchase of a Physic and spam fortify instead of Physic). I'd much rather spend a speed wing on Marth and make a ~4k armourslayer forge so Marth can get some additional exp (about 3 unconsecutive arena battles worth) than give a wing to Ryan. Hard to justify giving Ryan Speed Wings considering what everyone else can do with them. (I know the forge sounds crazy but it allows Sirius and Marth to get more exp from certain chapters for instance, it allows Hero!Sirius to 1RKO the armscroll general in C8.) Also, what sort of exp distribution are we talking about between Luke and Ryan. Curious because I'm thinking Ryan can outperform Luke in the prologue. Well, that's the vibe I was got from reading grandjackel's Lunatic MU choices thread. But then I have these thoughts in my mind saying, just look at those bases and then look at the speed growth, not even worth the attempt.

Yeah, I found the 28 turn with Merc. But the 7 turn of P-8 can only be achieved by MaleCav, Merc, (and I imagine Myrm) or is it open to Knight and Fighter as well? Edit: Am I allowed to bump threads by double posting? Edit #2: I have sifted through the H3 Tier List and could not find the 7 turn or even an 8 turn of P-8 (though I can definitely see a reliable 8 turn being done). Either way, unless someone can tell me otherwise I`m just going to assume that a reliable 7 or 8 turn exists only for MaleCav, Merc, and Myrmidon. With a reliable 9 turn existing for Fighter and Knight. Nevermind I found it. Still having trouble 3 turning Est with Knight!MU, at least without Draug. And Draug costs a turn for P-6. Also, I may try for a 7 or 8 turn for P-8 with a leveled Ryan + Cain essentially replacing Wrys + Luke in my current unreliable 8 turn. Not sure if there is anything new here but my turncounts for Knight!MU in H3 prologue are P-1 4 turns P-2 4 turns P-3 4 turns P-4 3 turns Athena obviously -- MU who is likely at least level 4, needs 11 STR and 15 DEF, in other words 2 procs in each of STR and DEF in 3 levels Caeda, Ryan and MU take hits on EP 1 and 2. Ryan needs to use a vulnerary on PP 2. Wrys is free to heal on PP 3. MU opens by attacking the nearest myrmidon from the west, and on turn 2 Caeda kills the soldier that attacked her and MU kills the other soldier from the west. On PP 3, Caeda kills the myrmidon that attacked her. MU + Ryan + Luke can kill Athena while Rody can kill the archer that was harassing Ryan. If MU does not have 15 DEF, 4 SPD (less likely to occur) will also work. P-5 4 turns P-6 2 turns Ogma -- Athena, Caeda, Merric, Ryan, MU fielded with MU, Athena, Caeda, and either Ryan or Merric taking hits on EP Athena and Caeda`s positioning is dependant on MU`s defensive parameters relative to Caeda. If the southern bandit goes after MU, Athena needs be 1D of MU after MU kills the northern bandit as the southern bandit + cavalier will probably KO MU. Otherwise Athena is 1D1R of MU. Caeda is 1R of Athena in either case. The archer will attack either Ryan or Merric, who ever gets attacked needs to be 1U of MU. MU also needs 21 ATK with a steel lance (11 STR and C rank lances OR 12 STR, C rank lances is likely though). P-7 3 turns Cain -- Athena, Wrys, Merric, Caeda, and Luke In addition to the necessary STR procs on Caeda, Athena and Luke Luke needs (I believe) 3 hp on base to survive an archer + myrmidon hit with a lance equipped P-8 9 turns Athena, Ogma, Wrys, Luke, Merric, Athena, Caeda, Marth, MU fielded. Knight!MU can get a 9 turn with 11 STR, less than 6 SPD and 15 DEF. Everyone else other than Luke and Caeda is at base. Luke for me had 10 STR at level 5, I think it is not necessary. His durability is irrelevant since he never gets hit so long as he has a sword equipped. I had a barely level 6 Caeda going into the map. It is preferable that Caeda never misses her 95% SPD growth on any of her levels, her STR is fine at base. P-8 8 turns (unreliable, currently working on how it could be made more reliable and even making it a 7 turn) Same units fielded. I don`t know if a 7 or 8 turn has been done with Knight!MU in prologue but I think it`s possible to be made reliable, well the 8 turn at least. I got the idea from BalcerzakFeldspar`s youtube video of P-8. He pulled both hunter + bandit duos on turn 1 and proceeded to kill everything in the immediate vicinity on turn 2, with the LHS hunter being killed by a unit that could 1RKO the silver axe bandit on turn 2 EP. His Myrm!MU was capable of this. However, Knight!MU is capable of replicating this by being 1RKO`d but not 1HKO`d. The idea is to have Athena KO the hunter while on the pillar (the dodge isn`t necessary but it`s nice to try and it decreases the number of dodges I currently need vs. handaxes). Then place a sufficiently weak or weakened Knight!MU who is doubled by the Silver Axe bandit that Athena couldn`t kill within his attack range and have him suicide onto MU. Again MU needs to be 1RKO`d but not 1HKO`d for this to work. Merric should be countering the mage on this turn and one of your sword users should be placed in range of the other bandits handaxe range and hope for dodges. The subsequent turns may need some sword vs handaxe dodges (only from Athena and Ogma). Due to non-stop offense and only 1 healer, one turn may need to be taken to heal your team with vulneraries. I didn`t bother with descriptions for the other prologues since they aren`t anything even potentially new. Final Edit: If anyone cares... pretty much anything above this line posted by me is more or less meaningless. In not actually seeing grandjackal's post in the H3 Tier List I assumed the 7 turn of P-8 was only possible with MaleCav, Merc and Myrmidon, but that is not the case. In fact I believe any melee MU can achieve a 7 turn with both Ogma and Est. So Knight!MU can reliably get a complete prologue turncount of 31 turns. No crits or dodges, with only a pedestrian amount of growth rigging (0.5 above average in each of STR and DEF for P-4 and Ryan can reach level 5 before P-7 so you just need him to be on average). Exp distribution is not ideal, but I think P-7 and P-8 could be tweaked heavily for MU, Caeda, and Ryan to get more kill exp.

Eh, I was wondering what are the different MU turncounts for H3 Prologue? I have gotten 33 turns with Knight!MU (with very little growth rigging). I have gotten 32 turns with Merc!MU I had to be STR blessed enough to 1RKO P-8 silver axe bandits and SPD blessed enough to 1RKO 14 SPD theives in P-8 to get the 7 turn in P-8 Edit: Just found Kngt_of_Titania Merc!MU that got a 28 turn prologue. I imagine Myrm!MU can basically accomplish the same turncounts while more easily meeting the SPD benchmarks but having more difficulty with STR Colonel_M got I think 34 turns with Fighter!MU He didn't need to rig a whole lot of growths either (I think only the 70% STR proc to 3 turn P-2 but Knight, Merc and Myrm all need a STR proc to 4 turn P-2 so small potatoes). Though hit rates are shaky, especially against swords. I cannot for the life of me find a thread where grandjackel posted his MaleCav!MU turncounts. Apparently it performs quite well with a few rigged speed procs and even features an 8 turn of P-8 with Est. Does such a thread exist?