Ranking each game by class: Troubadours / Valkyries

[Dark Holy Elf]

37 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I worked with Sylvain in Azure Moon. I made him a Cavalier, then a Paladin. He fell off really fucking HARD after the timeskip, and he didn't impress me before the timeskip either. His failure to impress, aside from earning him a grudge being held against him, is gonna give me a lot of pause about working with Ferdinand when I go back to 3H... anyway, high movement is nice, but you damn well better have something going for you besides that. It alone doesn’t make a class good. Case in point: Holy Knight. 

Sylvain, like any other unit, is certainly capable of falling off if he gets poor stat gains. So I'm not disbelieving your experience, to be clear.

I'm not sure why that's Paladin's fault, though. Let's say you'd made Sylvain a Swordmaster instead. Even setting aside that it's a significantly more difficult class for him to get to, do you think this would have improved him? Because I certainly don't. He'd have been slightly faster (due to both class modifiers and later, growths), but since Sylvain has Swift Strikes, more speed isn't of amazing value for him offensively (it's still useful, but not highly valuable). But he'd have either 1 less move or 3 less move, no canter, and a -faire on a weaker weapon type. This seems like such an obvious losing trade to me.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

43 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Sylvain, like any other unit, is certainly capable of falling off if he gets poor stat gains. So I'm not disbelieving your experience, to be clear.

Actually, let's imagine a 0% growths Sylvain. How does he do?

Paladin Strength Base (17) +

Paladin Strength Mod (2) +

Strength+2 Skill (2) +

Lancefaire (5) +

Death Blow (6) +

Lv. 5 Gautier Knights (7) +

Swift Strikes (2) +

Silver Lance+ (14)

= 55 Attack Power, striking twice.

That's cleanly one-rounding chapter 13's Pallardo, along with essentially any generic on that same map. He can one-round basically any non-Armored, non-Monster enemy from that point onward. Even if he gets screwed on his growths, Swift Strikes renders Sylvain a player-phase nuke, who can then Canto away to safety.

Of course, if you don't train his Lance rank up to A, or have him master Brigand, or give him a strong battalion, then sure he can turn out disappointing. But then, that's the player's own mistakes, not a consequence of bad RNG.

[Dark Holy Elf]

35 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Actually, let's imagine a 0% growths Sylvain. How does he do?

[...]

That's cleanly one-rounding chapter 13's Pallardo, along with essentially any generic on that same map. He can one-round basically any non-Armored, non-Monster enemy from that point onward. Even if he gets screwed on his growths, Swift Strikes renders Sylvain a player-phase nuke, who can then Canto away to safety.

Of course, if you don't train his Lance rank up to A, or have him master Brigand, or give him a strong battalion, then sure he can turn out disappointing. But then, that's the player's own mistakes, not a consequence of bad RNG.

Yeah I was trying to be charitable to Mir there. To be fair, I don't think it's completely unreasonable for Sylvain to skip Brigand (maybe you just want Sylvain to spend all that time in Cavalier, it is quite a bit a better-performing class so if a player expects to have trouble with Intermediate-tier maps). And I think it's quite reasonable to skip Str+2; it's a tough call between that and Reposition for him IMO. But this is getting into nickel-and-diming. And there are even sources of damage beyond what you mentioned for Sylvain, e.g. there are relic lances with 3/5/8 more might than Silver+, he can also benefit from up to two +might supports from Felix and Ingrid*, and finally there's his personal ability to consider in a pinch*. So obviously overall I agree with you: Sylvain's quite good, and mounted classes (either cavalry or wyvern) are unambiguously where he shines best.

*While on the subject of these two methods of having allies power up Sylvain, it's worth mentioning that Felix/Ingrid/[random female ally] will be able to provide this support more easily — wait for it — if they have Canto! Canto's good.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

43 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

To be fair, I don't think it's completely unreasonable for Sylvain to skip Brigand (maybe you just want Sylvain to spend all that time in Cavalier, it is quite a bit a better-performing class so if a player expects to have trouble with Intermediate-tier maps). And I think it's quite reasonable to skip Str+2; it's a tough call between that and Reposition for him IMO.

By the by, if we cut out Str +2 and Death Blow, then the per-hit Attack power falls to 47. That falls just short of one-rounding Pallardo (48 HP, 24 Prt), and likewise falls just shy of many other enemies there (Assassins, Grapplers, Snipers). But as you mentioned, there are a lot of other options - support partners, his personal skill, stronger weapons, and let's throw in Annette's Rally Strength. Soldier vs. Fighter is the tossup - personally, I'll often double-dip in Beginner classes, as they're relatively quick to master. IMO Death Blow is a no-brainer on any "multi-strike combat art" build, but Cavalier is more useful in the moment (and gives free Riding), while Archer mastery could be desirable to those who fear his Hit rate will falter.

52 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

While on the subject of these two methods of having allies power up Sylvain, it's worth mentioning that Felix/Ingrid/[random female ally] will be able to provide this support more easily — wait for it — if they have Canto! Canto's good.

Come to think of, a "no Canto classes" playthrough could make something of a challenge run. Maybe barring the Fetter, too. At least, when I'm not exulting about being able to avoid a Stairs movement penalty without dismounting. You can't put a price on that!

[Zapp Branniglenn]

On 10/28/2023 at 7:10 AM, Whisky said:

But Catherine is good despite her class, not because of it.

I disagree! Not to derail the discussion, but if you swapped Catherine's base class from Swordmaster to Mercenary her stats would be noticeably worse at every recruitable chapter. And her outrageous starting stats are her most compelling feature as a unit. Plus I've been thinking about how, if I'm recruiting her just for chapter 5 to be easier, I'm leaving her in Swordmaster for that map, regardless of if I'm using her long term. It's a long map with a lot of level ups. I'd put off Str+2 if it meant guaranteeing her more permanent stat ups. And if I'm really using her for just this arduous map, her being a mercenary would drop her sword performance by a whopping 6 damage (12 with Thunderbrand) - not counting any discrepancy in her strength stat from auto leveling as a mercenary.

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

= 55 Attack Power, striking twice.

That's cleanly one-rounding chapter 13's Pallardo, along with essentially any generic on that same map. He can one-round basically any non-Armored, non-Monster enemy from that point onward. Even if he gets screwed on his growths, Swift Strikes renders Sylvain a player-phase nuke, who can then Canto away to safety.

Plus a ~64% chance that his crest adds 5 or 10 damage if my mental probability math is on point. Thaaaat's if you can hit him twice though. I don't know how many people noticed but Swift Strikes lacks a hit bonus like every other brave combat art. It really depends on the accuracy of your weapon choice. I also would champion the bow and gauntlet scenarios not just for the greater hit rates on the weapons but the general lack of Bow and Fistbreaker on enemies. I don't have a working memory of which class has which breaker, only that there are disproportionately more swordbreakers compared to anything else, and flying monsters have +30 avoid to all three of the weapon triangle.

Pallardo's actually weaker than the thieves, until he reappears with Avoid +10 and a speed ring to hit 57 Avoid. But if we looked instead at the regular thieves, we're still talking 48 Avoid with an 80 Hit lance along with 12 Dex and 12 Hit from Lance Prowess 4. 56 displayed hit, and you gotta land both. Though this is a textbook map to find room for Swordbreaker and get further into 2RN's good graces.

 

On 10/28/2023 at 5:21 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Come to think of it: "Swordmaster is to Assassin, as Holy Knight is to Dark Knight" feels kind of apt. In either case, the former has certain niches in which you might prefer them - but the latter is largely better. Although, I would say the second pair is broadly superior to the first, even though they're hard to compare, since they're performing very different functions for you.

Agreed. They're both cases of, "I wouldn't use Y over X when I have the option of either at equal cost". They're also incidentally easier classes to get into for more characters (Reaching C in Bows and C in Swords from E is faster than B+ in just Swords!).

I don't really get down with the notion of this canto+magic class is still good from that alone. Because you can only choose to be one class at a time. Your performance in each class does not exist in a vacuum, you're weighing the options against each other for each map. And it's not like there's a good class mastery to sweeten the deal or a fundamental difference that makes Holy Knight better than Dark Knight for any individual map. The only scenario where that vacuum seems relevant is a draft run where the classes are drafted, not just the characters. 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Zapp Branniglenn

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

I disagree! Not to derail the discussion, but if you swapped Catherine's base class from Swordmaster to Mercenary her stats would be noticeably worse at every recruitable chapter. And her outrageous starting stats are her most compelling feature as a unit. Plus I've been thinking about how, if I'm recruiting her just for chapter 5 to be easier, I'm leaving her in Swordmaster for that map, regardless of if I'm using her long term. It's a long map with a lot of level ups. I'd put off Str+2 if it meant guaranteeing her more permanent stat ups. And if I'm really using her for just this arduous map, her being a mercenary would drop her sword performance by a whopping 6 damage (12 with Thunderbrand) - not counting any discrepancy in her strength stat from auto leveling as a mercenary.

Plus a ~64% chance that his crest adds 5 or 10 damage if my mental probability math is on point. Thaaaat's if you can hit him twice though. I don't know how many people noticed but Swift Strikes lacks a hit bonus like every other brave combat art. It really depends on the accuracy of your weapon choice. I also would champion the bow and gauntlet scenarios not just for the greater hit rates on the weapons but the general lack of Bow and Fistbreaker on enemies. I don't have a working memory of which class has which breaker, only that there are disproportionately more swordbreakers compared to anything else, and flying monsters have +30 avoid to all three of the weapon triangle.

Pallardo's actually weaker than the thieves, until he reappears with Avoid +10 and a speed ring to hit 57 Avoid. But if we looked instead at the regular thieves, we're still talking 48 Avoid with an 80 Hit lance along with 12 Dex and 12 Hit from Lance Prowess 4. 56 displayed hit, and you gotta land both. Though this is a textbook map to find room for Swordbreaker and get further into 2RN's good graces.

 

Agreed. They're both cases of, "I wouldn't use Y over X when I have the option of either at equal cost". They're also incidentally easier classes to get into for more characters (Reaching C in Bows and C in Swords from E is faster than B+ in just Swords!).

I don't really get down with the notion of this canto+magic class is still good from that alone. Because you can only choose to be one class at a time. Your performance in each class does not exist in a vacuum, you're weighing the options against each other for each map. And it's not like there's a good class mastery to sweeten the deal or a fundamental difference that makes Holy Knight better than Dark Knight for any individual map. The only scenario where that vacuum seems relevant is a draft run where the classes are drafted, not just the characters. 

Thinking on it, what could have been done to make Holy Knight better? Okay, white magic uses x2 is the obvious choice, but that sort of trips over Bishop and Gremory's niche. Assuming the idea of Holy Knight is to be "offensive white magic" in a game with very little white magic. Maybe it could have got the OG Slayer skill as its mastery that lets all its attacks (or even just it's magic/white magic) deal effective damage to beast units. That would be pretty cool, though might eliminate Seraphim's unique use, which is the main reason to use it as is.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Jotari

[Cysx]

Okay, so, ratings. Don't think this is nearly as prevalent a class as Wyverns last time (just skipped lords because I couldn't decide how I wanted to rate them). I'll just go by game.

FE4 : Tentative C B
Edit : Okay so hum, I completely forgot about Ethlyn somehow. So yeah, bumping this from C to B, Ethlyn is undeniably really useful in early Gen 1.
While Canto and higher movement obviously sound amazing at first, the class is stuck with the lowest staff rank unless Claude is Nanna's dad (which is usually not the best choice for reasons). It's almost more functional as a physical class (at least for Nanna, far as I'm aware Jane is a staffbot through and through), especially since Paladin promo bonuses are pretty good, but the problem is that both her and Jane join pretty underlevelled.

FE5 : B
So here we have Nanna and Amalda, two pretty different units, but who somehow end up roughly in the same tier. Nanna is still a pretty poor staffer without minmaxing, while Amalda is actually pretty good at it and not much else. Nanna is also more important in the sense that she supports both Leif and Fin and has her own Prf, a pretty great one at that. Overall this could almost be A, but I guess B's fine.

FE6 : A
Both pretty strong utility characters. It gets pretty close to S, but I'm not considering the Rutger/Clarine support because it requires grinding, and Saul and Ellen do provide longterm utility Clarine cannot due to her lower Mag.

FE7: Tentative A
In a game where Pent didn't exist, this would likely be the only S of this list (spoilers). As it stands, Priscilla still has a place in most any team for a good half of the game, and isn't particularly worthless afterwards really.

FE8 : D
Sorry L'Arachel, but I don't know what they were thinking when they made your statsheet, and Bishop on Natasha is almost unequivocally the stronger choice, on top of Natasha herself being worse Moulder who's eventually a worse Artur. Removing this class from the game would have remarkably little impact. I think -1 move was warranted on a lot of mounted class, but definitely not this one in particular.

FE9 : Tentative C
I find Mist really difficult to rate in both games she's in. She's a high investment character with a clear, good on paper niche. I guess in PoR it's just too much work, plus I'm not sure how relevant winning the Black Knight fight (since she can help a good bit with that if trained) even is these days. Nasir is certainly better than Eda, but is he needed, I can't say.

FE10 : B
Again this is a bit difficult. If she could early promote, she'd very likely be A, but here again she has an embryon phase which is frustrating to go through, though it's also not nearly as bad. Rhys, her direct competitor, is also quite a bit worse. Ultimately she's hurt by Physic staves being plentifully available, meaning healers can hang back safely... and Micaiah existing in the tower.

FE13(Awakening) : C
Pretty close to being a D, and I just said why I think that is in my previous post. Between it lacking Cleric's Healtouch early on, and Sage and Falcon Knight bottlenecking the class' niche completely, it just kinda exists. It's nice for +Mag & Spd pairup bonuses, but that's not in high demand unfortunately.

FE14(Fates) : B
With the rise of Wyvern Elise and Felicia being basically unarguably worse than Paladin!Jakob, I don't think I can justify an A on this one anymore. Dwyer (Edit : and Forrest) isn't particularly remarkable in his base class either, and I don't really have any knowledge of anyone who actually wants to reclass into Troubadour. Still, Demoiselle/Gentilhomme is a good skill, and Inspiration Felicia remains a pretty strong build.

FE16(3H) : Tentative A
Truth is, I have no experience with the DLC classes despite having bought the thing, although it's pretty blatantly obvious that Valkyrie's great. As, it gives magic units more or less everything they want.

... okay, as for the elephant in the room, Holy Knight gets a C from me. It is indeed functional but lacks a niche almost completely. If no one actually wants to be in the class, I think that hurts it quite a bit.

FE17(Engage) : C
I guess I can agree that Royal Knight fits the bill. As we all know however, it's not great. Not terrible either, stats are actually serviceable, but it doesn't do much of anything particularly well. Mostly, the Flame Lance being as heavy as it is hurts the class tremendously, since it's otherwise an obvious match.
As it stands it has mediocre offense and mediocre staffing. Yeah.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Cysx

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

9 hours ago, Jotari said:

Thinking on it, what could have been done to make Holy Knight better? Okay, white magic uses x2 is the obvious choice, but that sort of trips over Bishop and Gremory's niche. Assuming the idea of Holy Knight is to be "offensive white magic" in a game with very little white magic. Maybe it could have got the OG Slayer skill as its mastery that lets all its attacks (or even just it's magic/white magic) deal effective damage to beast units. That would be pretty cool, though might eliminate Seraphim's unique use, which is the main reason to use it as is.

So, currently, Dark Knight gives +2 Magic, whereas Holy Knight gives +1. Why not swap 'em? We can also swap another stat buff, say HP (Dark Knight has +1, Holy Knight has +2) to compensate.

This way, Holy Knight actually has a tiny advantage, dealing more damage with magical combat arts, and potentially having more range with Physic, Warp, and Rescue. However, Dark Knight will steal deal more damage with Black and Dark spells, while being more physically bulky. This way, there's a reason to choose either one. 

One more thing: yes, Holy Knight has a lower Magic base. This model is assuming that your level 30 unit has already reached 17 Magic naturally. The only unit you'd consider in Holy Knight, who might not achieve this, is Bernadetta.

1 hour ago, Cysx said:

FE4 : Tentative C B
Edit : Okay so hum, I completely forgot about Ethlyn somehow. So yeah, bumping this from C to B, Ethlyn is undeniably really useful in early Gen 1.
While Canto and higher movement obviously sound amazing at first, the class is stuck with the lowest staff rank unless Claude is Nanna's dad (which is usually not the best choice for reasons). It's almost more functional as a physical class (at least for Nanna, far as I'm aware Jane is a staffbot through and through), especially since Paladin promo bonuses are pretty good, but the problem is that both her and Jane join pretty underlevelled.

TBH, anyone can have good combat with a 50-kill Brave Sword. At the very least, it can get Jeanne most of the way through the Arena. It's very plausible to get either her or Nanna to promotion by chapter 9, since Staff EXP is quite generous in this game - the Mend Staff alone grants 10 full levels-up, without requiring a repair!

1 hour ago, Cysx said:

FE10 : B
Again this is a bit difficult. If she could early promote, she'd very likely be A, but here again she has an embryon phase which is frustrating to go through, though it's also not nearly as bad. Rhys, her direct competitor, is also quite a bit worse. Ultimately she's hurt by Physic staves being plentifully available, meaning healers can hang back safely... and Micaiah existing in the tower.

Interesting - I actually find Rhys to be the better of the two. He joins with a higher staff rank (A, rather than B), has ten more points of Magic at base (and 8 more Res), and can actually attack on the magical side of the spectrum. Mist's only clear advantage is the extra mobility - 1 point at base, 3 points (w. Canto) once she promotes. A clear advantage, sure, but I always count Mist as the "second-string healer". Maybe I'm underestimating her?

 

9 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Plus a ~64% chance that his crest adds 5 or 10 damage if my mental probability math is on point. Thaaaat's if you can hit him twice though. I don't know how many people noticed but Swift Strikes lacks a hit bonus like every other brave combat art. It really depends on the accuracy of your weapon choice. I also would champion the bow and gauntlet scenarios not just for the greater hit rates on the weapons but the general lack of Bow and Fistbreaker on enemies. I don't have a working memory of which class has which breaker, only that there are disproportionately more swordbreakers compared to anything else, and flying monsters have +30 avoid to all three of the weapon triangle.

Pallardo's actually weaker than the thieves, until he reappears with Avoid +10 and a speed ring to hit 57 Avoid. But if we looked instead at the regular thieves, we're still talking 48 Avoid with an 80 Hit lance along with 12 Dex and 12 Hit from Lance Prowess 4. 56 displayed hit, and you gotta land both. Though this is a textbook map to find room for Swordbreaker and get further into 2RN's good graces.

Yeah, I'm assuming the player is using Swordbreaker - at least for this chapter. It comes free, and it's clearly useful in a Sword-heavy map. My lineup would probably be "Swordbreaker, Str +2, Death Blow, Lance Prowess Lv. 4, {Dex +4? Hit +20? Auth Lv. 3?}"

As for the hit rates, that's a fair point. This is an area where choice of battalion can definitely help. I originally suggested Gautier Knights (since that comes from Sylvain's paralogue), but it's not necessarily the best choice. Like, consider Kingdom Brave Lance Co. That one can be bought as early as chapter 8, and it only requires C-rank Authority. It only offers +4 physical attack, but it makes up for it with +20 Hit rate. Or Kingdom Wyvern Co, granting +5 physical attack and +15 Hit. Victor Private Military (C, +6, +15), Leicester Mercenaries (B, +7, +20), and Gloucester Knights (B, +6, +15) could all be worth your consideration, if you have the right people in your army for their respective paralogues.

And, if all else fails... just give him an Accuracy Ring.

[Jotari]

26 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Yeah, I'm assuming the player is using Swordbreaker - at least for this chapter. It comes free, and it's clearly useful in a Sword-heavy map. My lineup would probably be "Swordbreaker, Str +2, Death Blow, Lance Prowess Lv. 4, {Dex +4? Hit +20? Auth Lv. 3?}"

Making up a lineup for Hunting by Daybreak is an unfortunate contradiction in terms (well, most of everything above you're going to want for the previous chapter too, but would you bring Swordbreaker for Edelgard? I think that's more an axe and lance heavy  map).

[Cysx]

On 10/29/2023 at 1:26 PM, Wuzzy said:

Felicia also has a really underrated early-game carry build being the Vantage/LnD Strategist (which uses the same resources that make people believe Paladin Jakob is busted in Conquest and it's practically free in BR/Rev)

Wouldn't that cost two seals instead of one, plus an S-rank(I guess A outside of Conquest) ? Doesn't sound like the same cost at all...

Quote

Wrath Nanna is pretty fun due to the synergy with her Earth Sword but, it's not the most reliable thing in the world since enemies can just attack her with 1-range and she'll attack with her much lower Str stat instead.

Funnily enough, not the case. Her Str and Mag are very balanced. It's mostly about enemies having more Def instead, but in general, what she can kill at 2 range, she can kill at 1.

Also, C-staves brings Sleep, which with the Flame sword's +5 Mag instantly gives Amalda great staff utility... she just won't be warping people.

-----

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

TBH, anyone can have good combat with a 50-kill Brave Sword. At the very least, it can get Jeanne most of the way through the Arena. It's very plausible to get either her or Nanna to promotion by chapter 9, since Staff EXP is quite generous in this game - the Mend Staff alone grants 10 full levels-up, without requiring a repair!

FE4 is always really tricky because the commonly considered way of playing it now is min maxing the heck out of it it seems. Which, I guess I simply have no real experience with first off, but in general I do question the idea of passing the best non legendary sword in the game to units who likely won't use it on the field, just so they can get levels and money they may or may not be able to put to good use, and then sell it back. Outside of ranks that is.
I'm definitely being a bit obtuse here though, not to mention that's like, the opposite of my usual stance, which is that "high effort" units... really aren't that high effort.

Semantics aside, I just need to replay the game, please don't pay too much attention to what I say about it.

Quote

Interesting - I actually find Rhys to be the better of the two. He joins with a higher staff rank (A, rather than B), has ten more points of Magic at base (and 8 more Res), and can actually attack on the magical side of the spectrum. Mist's only clear advantage is the extra mobility - 1 point at base, 3 points (w. Canto) once she promotes. A clear advantage, sure, but I always count Mist as the "second-string healer". Maybe I'm underestimating her?

Oh, I meant he's worse compared to PoR. Their "earlygame" matchup isn't as skewed basically, and the availability side is a decently big part of it. Is she actually better than him... Well he does fall off pretty hard, and his combat is really not that good (he deals considerably more damage but tends to get doubled to death if they can counter, you also generally can't expose him at all). B rank staff is also plenty, A and S bring very little. Mist also has the better affinity (by a little, Fire is good too), and the capacity to actually be around to give the bonuses. She even actually catches up in Mag after a while since he caps his very quickly and isn't a particularly noteworthy master crown candidate.

Speaking of capping, Rhys can be Bexped to great success since he caps two stats early, but, his third tier speed cap(of 30, tied for lowest non-laguz in the game I believe) robs this of all meaning. Bringing Mist to the tower is debatable, Rhys is... usually not even considered, afaik.

So he has a slightly better part 3 and she has a better, but mostly optional, part 4.

Thinking back on it... maybe B was a bit high for RD Mist, yeah. Meh.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Cysx

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Making up a lineup for Hunting by Daybreak is an unfortunate contradiction in terms (well, most of everything above you're going to want for the previous chapter too, but would you bring Swordbreaker for Edelgard? I think that's more an axe and lance heavy  map).

It depends on how you play chapter 12. You could play "the normal way", setting all your units up for an epic defense map against overwhelming odds. Or you could play "the fun way", getting a turn 1 kill on Edelgard to head face-first into the post-skip. In that design, assuming Sylvain plays no part in the quick clear (outside of maybe a Reposition), then you can just set him up for chapter 13.

12 minutes ago, Cysx said:

Oh, I meant he's worse compared to PoR.

Ah, that makes more sense. Yeah, I would agree.

14 minutes ago, Cysx said:

Well he does fall off pretty hard, and his combat is really not that good (he deals considerably more damage but tends to get doubled to death if they can counter, you also generally can't expose him at all).

So I agree Rhys's speed is bad, but Mist's is only 1 point better. She has the better growth rates, but after 10 levels each, her advantage will be... 2.5 points. Might save her getting doubled once or twice, but they're both super-frail to physical enemies. Rhys, at least, fares better against magical enemies.

17 minutes ago, Cysx said:

Speaking of capping, Rhys can be Bexped to great success since he caps two stats early, but, his third tier speed cap(of 30, tied for lowest non-laguz in the game I believe) robs this of all meaning. Bringing Mist to the tower is debatable, Rhys is... usually not even considered, afaik.

I think there's a slim case for Rhys, if you want to use the Matrona staff. The only other potential users are Laura, Oliver, and Micaiah. Of this bunch, Rhys has the most realistic path to SS Staves, without requiring an Arms Scroll. Sephiran can use it, granted, but only in the final final map.

Worth bringing Rhys for it? Probably not, no. But it is a niche, whereas Mist comes across as "Elincia, but worse".

24 minutes ago, Cysx said:

FE4 is always really tricky because the commonly considered way of playing it now is min maxing the heck out of it it seems. Which, I guess I simply have no real experience with first off, but in general I do question the idea of passing the best non legendary sword in the game to units who likely won't use it on the field, just so they can get levels and money they may or may not be able to put to good use, and then sell it back. Outside of ranks that is.

To be clear, I was not advocating "have Lachesis pass Ayra's Brave Sword down to Nanna". That would mean missing it for chapter 6. Seliph is probably the best recipient, but the Sword Twins and Diarmuid can make good use of it. In fact, it might not have 50 kills by the timeskip.I was moreso advocating "have the Troubadour buy the Brave Sword when they need to face higher-level Arena opponents".

...Wait, I might've misread your use of the word "passing". In which case, I was advocating for exactly what you're not keen on. Hahaha. Alternatively, you could have them buy a 50-kill Steel Sword or (for Nanna) Silver Sword, for a good shot at beating tough Arena foes. But not "Brave Sword" levels.

33 minutes ago, Cysx said:

Semantics aside, I just need to replay the game, please don't pay too much attention to what I say about it.

Nah, it's fine! Yeah, I was thinking that strat more with rankings in mind. Wherein, I really want to get as many units as possible to level 30. If you're playing casually,or just going for turncount, then clearing the Arena with your Troubadours might not matter so much.

[Cysx]

47 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

So I agree Rhys's speed is bad, but Mist's is only 1 point better. She has the better growth rates, but after 10 levels each, her advantage will be... 2.5 points. Might save her getting doubled once or twice, but they're both super-frail to physical enemies. Rhys, at least, fares better against magical enemies.

Don't get me wrong she won't be doubling anybody really, but that does tend to be the difference between getting doubled or not. Also, magical enemies will usually pick other targets. Mist has plenty of Res and Water affinity, and in fact... the Florete sucks (or rather, Mist's Str sucks, the Florete's amazing), but it does work decently well against mages.

47 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I think there's a slim case for Rhys, if you want to use the Matrona staff. The only other potential users are Laura, Oliver, and Micaiah. Of this bunch, Rhys has the most realistic path to SS Staves, without requiring an Arms Scroll. Sephiran can use it, granted, but only in the final final map.

Worth bringing Rhys for it? Probably not, no. But it is a niche, whereas Mist comes across as "Elincia, but worse".

I don't know. Micaiah can sport Aptitude Discipline for part 3 and get to around S by part 4. It's not all that hard. Arms scrolls are also not in high demand, although I guess you could sell them, the things are worth a lot.
The Elincia comparison is pretty on point, yeah, though they're not competing in terms of weaponry, at least.

... and in a bit of an ironic twist, anyone can have good combat with a Brave sword and 4x the chance to proc their Mastery skill. Sol's a good one, too.
Actually that might not work too great against dragons...

47 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

To be clear, I was not advocating "have Lachesis pass Ayra's Brave Sword down to Nanna". That would mean missing it for chapter 6. Seliph is probably the best recipient, but the Sword Twins and Diarmuid can make good use of it. In fact, it might not have 50 kills by the timeskip.I was moreso advocating "have the Troubadour buy the Brave Sword when they need to face higher-level Arena opponents".

...Wait, I might've misread your use of the word "passing". In which case, I was advocating for exactly what you're not keen on. Hahaha. Alternatively, you could have them buy a 50-kill Steel Sword or (for Nanna) Silver Sword, for a good shot at beating tough Arena foes. But not "Brave Sword" levels.

Yeah, my use of the word "passing" wasn't very wise, considering... it's FE4. But I did mean selling it to them, my bad.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Cysx

[Eltosian Kadath]

On 10/28/2023 at 7:10 AM, Whisky said:

But Catherine is good despite her class, not because of it.

My point was that a class I will probably get some use out of is better than one I probably wont.

 

On 10/28/2023 at 7:10 AM, Whisky said:

It’s basically the same number of hoops as Dark Knight which I’d consider a very good class. If you used a Holy Knight instead of a Dark Knight, how much worse would it really be? It’d be worse yeah, but it’d still be a fine class. It’d still have most of the benefits of Dark Knight, it’d just deal less damage.

When you have to put so much work, and long term planning into getting one of these classes, why would you intentionally work your way to the worse one? In a lot of other FE games I am more lenient with classes that get overshadowed by other classes, because the opportunity cost to use them tends to be much lower. Often you will have a unit that just starts in the class, reclassing cost nothing (like the DS games), or the only cost to get one is a buyable seal (that you might have gotten for free anyway). Three House's certification system throws that through a bit of a loop with the higher tier, and odd movement type classes. That lower opportunity cost means using them on a whim, as a replacement for someone in the "better" class, or just so you can field more units with the utility of that better class are more in the realm of possibility.

 

On 10/29/2023 at 1:02 PM, Cysx said:

I'd say Cleric beats Valkyrie actually, because healtouch is actually genuinely useful early on. Without it, you're not topping off anyone with staves.

And as I said in my original post

On 10/27/2023 at 6:55 PM, Eltosian Kadath said:

if healing was all this class did, it would be struggling to get a C tier position

its the early access to renewable Rescue staff on a mount that got Troubadour/Valkyrie in the tier its in, and that is a middle tier position, not even reaching the tier I would call good.

 

On 10/29/2023 at 1:02 PM, Cysx said:

Also, Sages don't exclusively come from Mage, they're also the promotion option to Cleric, and as it stands

That is why I was mentioning Cleric in comment about how the class compares to Sage to begin with.

 

On 10/29/2023 at 1:02 PM, Cysx said:

 

Mostly the big thing about Valkyrie is that Falcon Knight is usually a better alternative, both for Maribelle and Lissa. Really there's not much room for the class to shine overall.

Falcon Knight only has staff use after promotion, is losing you a staff range (-2 Mag), and forcing the combat you do use to be either physical or 1 range (although the higher speed is a serious improvement), and the main thing you get in exchange is the terrain ignoring ability of flight, which can be very useful, but there are a lot of Awakening maps that are fairly open. Falcon Knight can use staff, but a lot of its advantages over Valkyrie tend to be in the more physical combat side of things, and getting a unit with good enough strength and magic to do both well is a bit of a different niche than the more magic focused class of Valkyrie.

 

On 10/29/2023 at 5:26 AM, Wuzzy said:

Felicia also has a really underrated early-game carry build being the Vantage/LnD Strategist (which uses the same resources that make people believe Paladin Jakob is busted in Conquest and it's practically free in BR/Rev) that scales very well into the late game.

Picking up Vantage/LnD is only really early game with Skill Buy, as Felicia would need to pickup the Samurai class through a Friendship or Partner Seal, and in Conquest only with a marriage to a Corrin with the Samurai talent. Despite Skill Buy being a standard feature of Fates, it is common enough to ban/ignore the feature to the point that using it should probably be mentioned.

 

19 hours ago, Jotari said:

Thinking on it, what could have been done to make Holy Knight better? Okay, white magic uses x2 is the obvious choice, but that sort of trips over Bishop and Gremory's niche. Assuming the idea of Holy Knight is to be "offensive white magic" in a game with very little white magic. Maybe it could have got the OG Slayer skill as its mastery that lets all its attacks (or even just it's magic/white magic) deal effective damage to beast units. That would be pretty cool, though might eliminate Seraphim's unique use, which is the main reason to use it as is.

There are a few classes that just give you a spell as one of their class skills, so perhaps make Holy Knight one that just gives Seraphim to you.

 

7 hours ago, Cysx said:

 

Thinking back on it... maybe B was a bit high for RD Mist, yeah. Meh.

Yeah I am starting to feel the same about my decision to have RD Mist in B tier as well. I just really wanted to emphasize how much easier she is to use in her lame duck stage of thing by giving her a tier up from Path of Radiance, but Radiant Dawn is a different enough environment that what you get after her promotion is a bit less impressive. Although there is one minor benefit to Mist I will point out, but I am not sure how it should be judged. Her having access to swords, and being most useful as a staff bot makes her a great candidate for using her weapon blessing to give Ike a blessed Wyrmslayer.

 

[Wuzzy]

9 hours ago, Cysx said:

Wouldn't that cost two seals instead of one, plus an S-rank(I guess A outside of Conquest) ? Doesn't sound like the same cost at all...

Paladin Jakob requires Corrin's S-Support for Wyvern access (obviously you could go with Camilla/Beruka but those supports take much longer and Camilla is one of the best moms for physical children so there's a huge opportunity cost for it) to get Str+2 and Trample, without those skills Paladin Jakob is basically Silas with more work since they have similar stats on average but Silas will scale slightly better due to his better growths. 

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Funnily enough, not the case. Her Str and Mag are very balanced. It's mostly about enemies having more Def instead, but in general, what she can kill at 2 range, she can kill at 1.

You kind of already answered your own question regarding Nanna. Her Str and Mag at base are balanced but, enemies have higher Def than Mag so she wants to be dealing more damage to heal more especially if a player is throwing her out in the frontlines with Wrath. Her magic is better and can be made much better a lot more easily than her Str, both Pure Waters and the Ensorcel Staff exist which gives her free +7 Magic and most importantly, her promotion bonuses giving her +3 Magic. Dismounting also lowers a Str slightly indoors and Magic Rings are less in demand compared to other rings so Nanna can monopolize them if she really wanted to. While Nanna has a lower Mag growth than Str, the Heim Scroll is available early and can be stacked with Ced/Fjalar if needed (Str stacking is possible but, Nanna will have to monopolize a lot more scrolls which are highly contested and Njorun comes a lot later). I really don't see how whatever she can kill at 2 range, she can do at 1.

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Also, C-staves brings Sleep, which with the Flame sword's +5 Mag instantly gives Amalda great staff utility... she just won't be warping people.

Already talked about Amalda in my post and mentioned all of those things

1 hour ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Picking up Vantage/LnD is only really early game with Skill Buy, as Felicia would need to pickup the Samurai class through a Friendship or Partner Seal, and in Conquest only with a marriage to a Corrin with the Samurai talent. Despite Skill Buy being a standard feature of Fates, it is common enough to ban/ignore the feature to the point that using it should probably be mentioned.

It's not even necessary to skill buy for Felicia to get Samurai skills, that's just a really random assumption. I would assume one would automatically mean that she's getting the classline and therefore skills through support but, I guess I should've been clearer knowing the audience.

Anyways... It doesn't take that long for Felicia to get Samurai access in BR/CQ (takes longer in Rev due to Hana joining later but, Strategist Felicia is easily one of the better combat units early on because she can actually do damage to the tanky Oni/Spear Fighters in Chapter 9 and the Cavaliers/Knights in Chapter 10). I also never mentioned that Felicia HAS to get Vantage/LnD very early so idk why this statement assumes Vantage/Lnd Felicia is going off in Chapter 7. Corrin/Felicia have a fast support and takes 6 Chapters to hit S-Rank (both are available in the prologue for easy C-rank and then Chapter 7 is an easy B-rank, there's also My Quarters abuse as well), meanwhile Hana/Felicia in BR requires 5 Chapters for the A-rank needed; this can be done quicker with the use of Mozu's paralogue and Invasion 1. Even then Felicia still holds her own as a normal Strategist in the early game or she can just stay as a Maid for healing support until she's close to Level 11 but, it'll delay her power spike.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Wuzzy

[Jotari]

20 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

There are a few classes that just give you a spell as one of their class skills, so perhaps make Holy Knight one that just gives Seraphim to you.

That would actually help a lot. Looking at the spell list, neither Linhardt, Marianne nor Manuela have Seraphim. So extra monster damage potential from the class, and just plain more white magic charges to attack with in general would give it much better offense. Dark knight would still be a plain better choice the majority of the time, but built in Seraphim would at least give a reason to choose it for the specific faith specialists who all lack natural Seraphim. It would also make it a decent option for Byleth, who learns White Magic Avoid+20, a decent skill, but is stuck with inaccurate Nosferatu and 3 use Aura. And extra 8 uses of Seraphim with mounted magic access, white tome fair and magic avoid+20 would be a fun and useful build for Byleth.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Jotari

[Dark Holy Elf]

9 hours ago, Jotari said:

Thinking on it, what could have been done to make Holy Knight better? Okay, white magic uses x2 is the obvious choice, but that sort of trips over Bishop and Gremory's niche. Assuming the idea of Holy Knight is to be "offensive white magic" in a game with very little white magic. Maybe it could have got the OG Slayer skill as its mastery that lets all its attacks (or even just it's magic/white magic) deal effective damage to beast units. That would be pretty cool, though might eliminate Seraphim's unique use, which is the main reason to use it as is.

Hm, two proposals:

White Tome Exerptise: +10 damage with offensive white magic, and double its number of uses

Monster Slayer: Offensive white magic ignores the "Magic Immunity" barrier effect and deals effective damage to beasts. [Seraphim is still useful even with this, because it has a lot more might than Nosferatu.]

Either of these replacing White Tomefaire would essentially keep the class's niche in the same place as White Tomefaire is trying to have it, but actually make it work. I also like the idea of just giving the class Seraphim. While we're at it, we could give Dark Bishop an actual good spell like Mire or Banshee or Luna to tempt people that direction.

21 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

I disagree! Not to derail the discussion, but if you swapped Catherine's base class from Swordmaster to Mercenary her stats would be noticeably worse at every recruitable chapter.

In Whisky's defence, I think he was talking about Swordmaster compared to other Advanced classes, or at least that's how I interpreted the comment. I certainly agree that Swordmaster is much better than an Intermediate class assuming equal availability, and this is indeed why Catherine is good! So in the context you're using, you're of course 100% correct. But in the context I believe Whisky was using, he's correct as well. Catherine would be even better if she started as many other physical advanced classes. Assassin would give her the same stats but now she has +1 move and a free C in bows. Sniper would make her completely outclass Shamir (outside the lack of bow combat arts, I suppose, but joining earlier with better growths more than makes up for this). War Cleric would just let her do ridiculous damage (Nimble Combo and Fistfaire off that strength in Chapter 5?!) and fast-track her to a great dodgetank build, plus 6 move and free C+ faith. Wyvern Rider needs no explanation. etc.

[lenticular]

Honestly, making Three Houses Holy Knight good would be pretty easy. Because it's almost good already. Its problem isn't its raw power level, but how overshadowed it is by Holy Knight. So really, you can just give it a little nudge in pretty much any direction and that would push it over the edge to the point where it would have its place. The main question is what sort of flavour you want to give it in the process. Giving White Magic Uses x2 and giving it Lancefaire would both make it a strong and useful class, but very different in flavour and feel. Giving it Seraphim or specifically extra uses of damaging White Magic would also work well without doing too much to alter the overall flavour of the class.

One thing I'd be interested in theorycrafting is whether there'd be any way to buff Terrain Resistance to make it not terrible. Other things that I think could be lumped into the same skill and still make sense: movement isn't slowed by terrain; immunity to debuffs and status effects (poison, silence, rattle, seal); immunity to indirect attacks and incidental damage, like AoE from gambits or siege weapons, Posion Strike damage, etc. Shove all of that onto a single skill, rename it to something more thematic ("Divine Aspis" or some similar nonsense) and I think that could be enough to make for a worthwhile class.

[Cysx]

8 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

its the early access to renewable Rescue staff on a mount that got Troubadour/Valkyrie in the tier its in, and that is a middle tier position, not even reaching the tier I would call good.

It's not a thing though. Genuinely until Rescue's freely buyable, it's luck based, that's why I spoke of the earlygame. At first, staffers primarily just heal. Besides, unless you're reclassing Lissa, the Mag difference with Maribelle is so high that her rescue range should still be better.
Past that point yeah, Healtouch becomes unimportant, my larger point was that Troubadour/Valkyrie was beaten by something at every point.
Also I'm not criticizing your tier placement really, just commenting on what you said.

8 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Falcon Knight only has staff use after promotion, is losing you a staff range (-2 Mag), and forcing the combat you do use to be either physical or 1 range (although the higher speed is a serious improvement), and the main thing you get in exchange is the terrain ignoring ability of flight, which can be very useful, but there are a lot of Awakening maps that are fairly open. Falcon Knight can use staff, but a lot of its advantages over Valkyrie tend to be in the more physical combat side of things, and getting a unit with good enough strength and magic to do both well is a bit of a different niche than the more magic focused class of Valkyrie.

Yeah, no point going through Peg, but then again there's little reason to reclass anyone to Troubadour, so it's mostly just Valkyrie vs Falcon Knight and Sage. And your staffer really won't be able to fight for the most part, not on Lunatic anyway. Enemies will outgrow them unless they're constantly being grinded, and it's difficult to enter combat without having to face several people at once due to enemy density, so they typically just die.
It does lose one range, that's true. At the same time, it gets rally speed, which is an excellent support skill, and really helpful for Grima, down the line. You also eventually have enough Rescue range that one isn't that big a deal, meanwhile flying rescue is huge for certain maps, like Milla's Tree, the volcano and the penultimate chapter. You generally cannot reasonably one turn the volcano without it really, while Milla's tree is considerably trickier.

8 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Yeah I am starting to feel the same about my decision to have RD Mist in B tier as well. I just really wanted to emphasize how much easier she is to use in her lame duck stage of thing by giving her a tier up from Path of Radiance, but Radiant Dawn is a different enough environment that what you get after her promotion is a bit less impressive. Although there is one minor benefit to Mist I will point out, but I am not sure how it should be judged. Her having access to swords, and being most useful as a staff bot makes her a great candidate for using her weapon blessing to give Ike a blessed Wyrmslayer.

True, there's also the Spirit dust with A Boyd, but that doesn't really require training them per se, nor is it a game changer particularly. It's more like, if you want it she'll be deployed, and if she's deployed she might as well Physic people.

----

8 hours ago, Wuzzy said:

Paladin Jakob requires Corrin's S-Support for Wyvern access (obviously you could go with Camilla/Beruka but those supports take much longer and Camilla is one of the best moms for physical children so there's a huge opportunity cost for it) to get Str+2 and Trample, without those skills Paladin Jakob is basically Silas with more work since they have similar stats on average but Silas will scale slightly better due to his better growths. 

Well Paladin Jakob has considerably better bulk than Strategist Felicia, so even without these skills he has a ton of utility she doesn't have. And still 8 move, that's the big thing Silas doesn't bring. Trivializes the ice tribe chapter in particular.

8 hours ago, Wuzzy said:

You kind of already answered your own question regarding Nanna.

Did I ask a question, well whatever.

While Wrath isn't available immediately, she will still gain levels at a time where Heim isn't available, and Sety is in high demand. You also don't want to wait to build her Staff rank because she wants Physic asap if possible, so she will usually gain levels during this period(also, forgot to mention that her competing with Safy isn't much of a thing, because of Fatigue getting them deployed in different chapters, and Safy really not needing that much staff exp to reach A, or you can also simply promote her). Similarly, Ensorcel and Pure waters aren't this readily available(especially not this early) that you can just constantly buff her combat with them. Meanwhile you do have Hezul, which is a good idea anyway for Fatigue reasons. As for Falla it also gives Str.
Heim and +Mag are also really good on multiple sword users since that's their 2 range stat, not to mention rounding off their durability.

Her promo bonus gives her +2 Mag(relative to Str), yeah. There's no particular reason to early promote her to my knowledge, though, so her Str growth will still have time to build up.

By the time you can have rebuilt a significant mag lead on her if you choose to, she can reasonably OHKO most targets at 1 range too, is the larger point. Especially since she'll likely double, even though that won't crit. It does vary depending on enemy type, admittedly. Before that, she has 30 base 1 range damage with Wrath, which covers a lot of enemy types already, and that's at level 1.

8 hours ago, Wuzzy said:

Already talked about Amalda in my post and mentioned all of those things

I know, I was responding to her staff rank being unfortunate. It really isn't, you should have multiple warpers by that point. I guess her having A for Rewarp would be nice, since she could actually rescue Rewarp people for the few outdoor maps left, but that's kinda it. You also hadn't mentioned the combination of Magic swords and staves, which is a class-exclusive thing that she doesn't need training for.
You did speak of status though, admittedly, so I could have phrased it better.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Cysx

[Wuzzy]

2 hours ago, Cysx said:

Well Paladin Jakob has considerably better bulk than Strategist Felicia, so even without these skills he has a ton of utility she doesn't have. And still 8 move, that's the big thing Silas doesn't bring. Trivializes the ice tribe chapter in particular.

Since this a thread about Valkyries I only brought up the Strategist build that's has seen some successful use, her best build with 2018/9 Jakob's level of investment is going to be Malig Knight anyways (moreso in Conquest/Rev). 8 move is nice but, I hardly think Paladin Jakob is trivializing Chapter 8 considering he takes too much damage from the Fighters (mainly the ones with Steel Axes or Quick Draw + Iron Axes, he deals with the ones with just Iron Axes fine) and he can't counter attack the Dark Mages (yes he tanks them just fine). He's just a good unit in the chapter, calling it trivializing is very generous. This is moreso a Silas v. Jakob than Felicia v. Jakob comparison which doesn't belong in this thread.

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While Wrath isn't available immediately, she will still gain levels at a time where Heim isn't available, and Sety is in high demand. You also don't want to wait to build her Staff rank because she wants Physic asap if possible, so she will usually gain levels during this period(also, forgot to mention that her competing with Safy isn't much of a thing, because of Fatigue getting them deployed in different chapters, and Safy really not needing that much staff exp to reach A, or you can also simply promote her). Similarly, Ensorcel and Pure waters aren't this readily available(especially not this early) that you can just constantly buff her combat with them. Meanwhile you do have Hezul, which is a good idea anyway for Fatigue reasons. As for Falla it also gives Str.
Heim and +Mag are also really good on multiple sword users since that's their 2 range stat, not to mention rounding off their durability.

Her promo bonus gives her +2 Mag(relative to Str), yeah. There's no particular reason to early promote her to my knowledge, though, so her Str growth will still have time to build up.

By the time you can have rebuilt a significant mag lead on her if you choose to, she can reasonably OHKO most targets at 1 range too, is the larger point. Especially since she'll likely double, even though that won't crit. It does vary depending on enemy type, admittedly. Before that, she has 30 base 1 range damage with Wrath, which covers a lot of enemy types already, and that's at level 1.

Touche on Safy but I also forgot she basically joins with C+ Staves (+ = she's close to B Staves) and that I should've also clarified that I meant both weapon XP and regular XP so she gets to Level 10 ASAP.

Disagree on Pure Waters/Ensorcel mainly because you really don't need to constantly rebuff her to maintain the +7 Mag buff, +3-6 is still very good and Pure Waters/Ensorcel are better used early than late since lategame is entirely Warp-skipping. There's quite a few Pure Waters available from Chapter 5-8x and Ensorcel comes in Chapter 10. 30 Base Damage at level 1 is good on paper but realistically, how often is that going to happen. I still seriously doubt Nanna is this juggernaut that's capable of 2RKO enemies at 1 range without Str-scroll stacking, let alone at Level 1. Her base Speed of 7 is not the best and she takes a -1 penalty with her Con of 4 (she needs enemies like Brigands to roll down on Spd/Con and there's some enemies like Cavaliers/Mercs she straight up cannot double at base with their minimum Spd/Con). Her Spd growth also isn't that good (not to mention she takes an additional penalty indoors) and as you mentioned, Sety is a highly contested scroll. The only enemies she can double pretty consistently are Mages but, the entire cast are more than capable of doubling enemy Mages due to how AS works on Tomes and Armor Knights who have way higher Defense which she cannot 1 round at 1-range. 

Early promoting Nanna is definitely realistic, it just depends on how much you want to grind her (possible on casual runs especially if she's used as a combat unit, though Nanna is probably not seeing a promotion in efficiency/LTC). There's 6 Knight Proofs available from Ch6-10, if you are going to promote the usual suspects of Safy/Asbel/Fergus/Osian/Finn there's 1 leftover which is typically between Karin/Nanna and Salem/Homer can use the Knight Proofs from 12x/13 respectively (yes I left out Shiva and Mareeta on purpose but there's those 2 if players want to promote them as I know most of the community regard the 2 as top tier).

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I know, I was responding to her staff rank being unfortunate. It really isn't, you should have multiple warpers by that point. I guess her having A for Rewarp would be nice, since she could actually rescue Rewarp people for the few outdoor maps left, but that's kinda it. You also hadn't mentioned the combination of Magic swords and staves, which is a class-exclusive thing that she doesn't need training for.
You did speak of status though, admittedly, so I could have phrased it better.

"Amalda on the other hand is pretty good late game filler with her solid magic and high sword rank letting her use magic swords effectively, however joining with C-staves is unfortunate for her join time but she can still use status staves, Ensorcel and maybe Rescue during the endgame with grinding." Unfortunate is too harsh, I probably meant to say it's fine but could be better.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Wuzzy said:

"Amalda on the other hand is pretty good late game filler with her solid magic and high sword rank letting her use magic swords effectively, however joining with C-staves is unfortunate for her join time but she can still use status staves, Ensorcel and maybe Rescue during the endgame with grinding." Unfortunate is too harsh, I probably meant to say it's fine but could be better.

Class can't get the credit, but she also has an Authority star, which is nice.

[Cysx]

3 hours ago, Wuzzy said:

Touche on Safy but I also forgot she basically joins with C+ Staves (+ = she's close to B Staves) and that I should've also clarified that I meant both weapon XP and regular XP so she gets to Level 10 ASAP.

Disagree on Pure Waters/Ensorcel mainly because you really don't need to constantly rebuff her to maintain the +7 Mag buff, +3-6 is still very good and Pure Waters/Ensorcel are better used early than late since lategame is entirely Warp-skipping. There's quite a few Pure Waters available from Chapter 5-8x and Ensorcel comes in Chapter 10. 30 Base Damage at level 1 is good on paper but realistically, how often is that going to happen. I still seriously doubt Nanna is this juggernaut that's capable of 2RKO enemies at 1 range without Str-scroll stacking, let alone at Level 1. Her base Speed of 7 is not the best and she takes a -1 penalty with her Con of 4 (she needs enemies like Brigands to roll down on Spd/Con and there's some enemies like Cavaliers/Mercs she straight up cannot double at base with their minimum Spd/Con). Her Spd growth also isn't that good (not to mention she takes an additional penalty indoors) and as you mentioned, Sety is a highly contested scroll. The only enemies she can double pretty consistently are Mages but, the entire cast are more than capable of doubling enemy Mages due to how AS works on Tomes and Armor Knights who have way higher Defense which she cannot 1 round at 1-range. 

Early promoting Nanna is definitely realistic, it just depends on how much you want to grind her (possible on casual runs especially if she's used as a combat unit, though Nanna is probably not seeing a promotion in efficiency/LTC). There's 6 Knight Proofs available from Ch6-10, if you are going to promote the usual suspects of Safy/Asbel/Fergus/Osian/Finn there's 1 leftover which is typically between Karin/Nanna and Salem/Homer can use the Knight Proofs from 12x/13 respectively (yes I left out Shiva and Mareeta on purpose but there's those 2 if players want to promote them as I know most of the community regard the 2 as top tier).

Ensorcels are quite important to help Sara reach thresholds with the Thief staff, and buffing mage combat in general, as well as helping with status staves thresholds since you're usually targetting magic users. And, it's a solid source of Wexp for characters like Salem and Tina. The lategame is also not all warpskipping(24 has the whole 24x unlocking, 24x is escape, 25 you'll sure warp a lot but you'll likely want the Ensorcel too), though there is indeed a lot of it. Either way, you're especially not using it on Nanna if she doesn't need it, and usually, well she doesn't.
If you're saying her Mag can be much higher, yeah, the tools do exist. Realistically there's fairly little reason for it to be the case though.

As for Pure waters, the early midgame does give a bunch, but they're 1 use in Thracia. They can run out fast, and they're the only way for characters to boost Mag on their own. They're also never buyable, to my knowledge.

30 base damage is (12 mt + 3 Str) * 2 from Wrath crit, that's all I meant. She's weighed down too much at first(by 5, it's way worse)  so indeed, she's aiming for OHKOs. It's just that cavaliers and soldiers are usually in that range(assuming she's gained some levels), even in Melee, and then she kills so many things that she just outgrows enemy defenses and especially AS, usually.

Early promoting Nanna isn't unrealistic at all, what I meant is that it's low priority because it doesn't make that meaningful a difference. And by early promoting I mean doing it right as she gets to level 10 so that her Mag stays ahead, it wasn't really about the timing of it. Also I'd definitely say Karin is top priority because it allows her to move through ballista range and kill them.

3 hours ago, Wuzzy said:

"Amalda on the other hand is pretty good late game filler with her solid magic and high sword rank letting her use magic swords effectively, however joining with C-staves is unfortunate for her join time but she can still use status staves, Ensorcel and maybe Rescue during the endgame with grinding." Unfortunate is too harsh, I probably meant to say it's fine but could be better.

Yeah, I guess I also read into it a bit too much. She's not usually a very well known character, so I jumped the gun a little. My bad.

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Class can't get the credit, but she also has an Authority star, which is nice.

Right, and +1 Move and a Movement star, too. I tend to compare her to Conomore so what she doesn't have over him I almost can't see nowadays.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Cysx

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, Cysx said:

Ensorcels are quite important to help Sara reach thresholds with the Thief staff, and buffing mage combat in general, as well as helping with status staves thresholds since you're usually targetting magic users. And, it's a solid source of Wexp for characters like Salem and Tina. The lategame is also not all warpskipping(24 has the whole 24x unlocking, 24x is escape, 25 you'll sure warp a lot but you'll likely want the Ensorcel too), though there is indeed a lot of it. Either way, you're especially not using it on Nanna if she doesn't need it, and usually, well she doesn't.
If you're saying her Mag can be much higher, yeah, the tools do exist. Realistically there's fairly little reason for it to be the case though.

As for Pure waters, the early midgame does give a bunch, but they're 1 use in Thracia. They can run out fast, and they're the only way for characters to boost Mag on their own. They're also never buyable, to my knowledge.

30 base damage is (12 mt + 3 Str) * 2 from Wrath crit, that's all I meant. She's weighed down too much at first(by 5, it's way worse)  so indeed, she's aiming for OHKOs. It's just that cavaliers and soldiers are usually in that range(assuming she's gained some levels), even in Melee, and then she kills so many things that she just outgrows enemy defenses and especially AS, usually.

Early promoting Nanna isn't unrealistic at all, what I meant is that it's low priority because it doesn't make that meaningful a difference. And by early promoting I mean doing it right as she gets to level 10 so that her Mag stays ahead, it wasn't really about the timing of it. Also I'd definitely say Karin is top priority because it allows her to move through ballista range and kill them.

Yeah, I guess I also read into it a bit too much. She's not usually a very well known character, so I jumped the gun a little. My bad.

-----

Right, and +1 Move and a Movement star, too. I tend to compare her to Conomore so what she doesn't have over him I almost can't see nowadays.

She has a staff over him. And even if it's only C rank, that's fucking amazing in Thracia. She can use Physic, Recover, Sleep and the stealth amazing staff of Thracia, Barrier! And because she can do this stuff, it means your A rank staffers don't have to and can be free to be left for warp shinanigans.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Jotari

[Cysx]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

She has a staff over him. And even if it's only C rank, that's fucking amazing in Thracia. She can use Physic, Recover, Sleep and the stealth amazing staff of Thracia, Barrier! And because she can do this stuff, it means your A rank staffers don't have to and can be free to be left for warp shinanigans.

Yup, she's definitely the better of the two. Although Conomore does have a support unlike her (a double one at that), allowing him to arena in ch 20 with a bunch of scrolls. Even still he's just another combat unit at best.

It's just pretty natural to compare them.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Cysx

[Shadow Mir]

On 10/30/2023 at 12:05 AM, Jotari said:

Thinking on it, what could have been done to make Holy Knight better? Okay, white magic uses x2 is the obvious choice, but that sort of trips over Bishop and Gremory's niche. Assuming the idea of Holy Knight is to be "offensive white magic" in a game with very little white magic. Maybe it could have got the OG Slayer skill as its mastery that lets all its attacks (or even just it's magic/white magic) deal effective damage to beast units. That would be pretty cool, though might eliminate Seraphim's unique use, which is the main reason to use it as is.

The obvious solution, to me at least, is to make new offensive white magic that isn't crap. Because that's at least part of the problem; it is supposed to be an offensive white magic user, but if it was meant as such, it would only be as good as the offensive white magic spells are... and there are only 4 offensive white magic spells, and almost all of them are bad. It doesn't help that the one universally available offensive spell is Nosferatu, which is too heavy and weak for use as a mage's main means of attack. 

On 10/29/2023 at 8:38 PM, Jotari said:

Wow dude, did a Holy Knight kill your parents or something? Chill, it's just a game.

I'm just being honest. Maybe brutally so, but honest nonetheless. I mean, I thought it was a decent class at first, but did a total 180 when I actually thought about it - and realized just how ill-conceived it was. It doesn't help that it arguably needs even more effort to qualify for than Great Knight, which is the poster child for disproportionately high requirements 

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

The obvious solution, to me at least, is to make new offensive white magic that isn't crap. Because that's at least part of the problem; it is supposed to be an offensive white magic user, but if it was meant as such, it would only be as good as the offensive white magic spells are... and there are only 4 offensive white magic spells, and almost all of them are bad. It doesn't help that the one universally available offensive spell is Nosferatu, which is too heavy and weak for use as a mage's main means of attack. 

I'm just being honest. Maybe brutally so, but honest nonetheless. I mean, I thought it was a decent class at first, but did a total 180 when I actually thought about it - and realized just how ill-conceived it was. It doesn't help that it arguably needs even more effort to qualify for than Great Knight, which is the poster child for disproportionately high requirements 

Brutal honesty isn't ignoring what everyone else has to say and then getting angry when no one agrees with you.