Ranking each game by class: Troubadours / Valkyries

[SnowFire]

@Shadow Mir: Have you ever actually built a Holy Knight?  3H is a long game so "no" is totally fine as a response.  I agree that the limited uses of White Magic is an issue (incidentally, you asked about Aura vs. Abraxas before, and Aura having fully +50% more uses is part of why I'd rather have it than Abraxas), and giving Holy Knight some extra shots of Seraphim / some other White spell woulda been handy, but it's not like you can't use Black Magic in the class, or a Levin Sword for that matter.  You'll miss out on Black Tomefaire, which is unfortunate, and you might have to spend a skill slot on Black Proficiency, but you won't truly "run out of gas" and be stuck with nothing.  (And some Holy Knight candidates also have relevant magic-related Combat Arts, of course.)

[Jotari]

18 minutes ago, SnowFire said:

@Shadow Mir: Have you ever actually built a Holy Knight?  3H is a long game so "no" is totally fine as a response.  I agree that the limited uses of White Magic is an issue (incidentally, you asked about Aura vs. Abraxas before, and Aura having fully +50% more uses is part of why I'd rather have it than Abraxas), and giving Holy Knight some extra shots of Seraphim / some other White spell woulda been handy, but it's not like you can't use Black Magic in the class, or a Levin Sword for that matter.  You'll miss out on Black Tomefaire, which is unfortunate, and you might have to spend a skill slot on Black Proficiency, but you won't truly "run out of gas" and be stuck with nothing.  (And some Holy Knight candidates also have relevant magic-related Combat Arts, of course.)

He says he has used it, and the extreme negative reaction likely stems from that one experience.

On the topic, I don't think it's right to say white magic spells are bad. Nosferatu is pretty inaccurate, but balancing Nosferatu is a challenge the series has never quite managed. But Seraphim, Aura and Abraxes are all serviceable if not amazing. The major issue is spell access. Any given unit can be expected to have several black magic spells with a good number of uses, but for faith it'll likely be Nosferatu+Just one other. That's why giving Seraphim built in would be such a good fix. If a unit existed with Faith proficiency, riding proficiency and at least neutral in lances, and learned all the offensive white magic spells, or at least Seraphim and Aura, then it would be a no brainer choice for that unit.  The issue is that there is no one that tailored built for it, which means you have to study reason as well to have proper magical offense, which makes getting into the class a lot more difficult. Actually qualifying for Lance-Riding-Faith isn't much harder than Land-Riding-Reason, especially if you can spam barrier, it's that Holy Knight really needs that unofficial fourth rank that puts it over the edge (along with Dark Knight just generally doing everything better too).

Looking at the spell list, Lysithea is the only character who learns three offensive white magic spells, but she has a weaknesses in lances, still something you can powe through since you only need C rank. Her personal would also help to raise both reason and faith. She probably would make for a really good Holy Knight if that's how you build her, but she's Lysithea, she's probably going to be amazing in every magical class, and as good as she'd be as a Holy Knight, she'd still be better as a Dark Knight or Gremory.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Jotari

[lenticular]

11 minutes ago, Jotari said:

On the topic, I don't think it's right to say white magic spells are bad. Nosferatu is pretty inaccurate, but balancing Nosferatu is a challenge the series has never quite managed. But Seraphim, Aura and Abraxes are all serviceable if not amazing. The major issue is spell access. Any given unit can be expected to have several black magic spells with a good number of uses, but for faith it'll likely be Nosferatu+Just one other. That's why giving Seraphim built in would be such a good fix.

Given that balancing Nosferatu has always been a problem, maybe the mistake was making it so that was the offensive spell that everyone gets at D+ Faith. Hypothetically, what if we added a new spell that everyone learns at that level instead that served as a slightly worse analogue for Fire. Let's say Shine: might 2, weight 3, hit 90, uses 8. Obviously this is nothing exciting, but it's usable as a fallback when you run out of Seraphim charges, in the same way that Fire is usable after you run out of Thoron or Bolganone or whatever else.

This would then free up Nosferatu to be made into a much stronger, higher level spell with fewer castings. Keep its weight and accuracy the same, bump its might up to 10 and its uses down to 3, or something along those lines, and I think it would be a much more intesting spell. It could then be added as a higher-end Faith option for a few characters. Byleth, Lorenz, Ingrid, Dorothea, and Balthus would be interesting options, I think.

[Jotari]

31 minutes ago, lenticular said:

Given that balancing Nosferatu has always been a problem, maybe the mistake was making it so that was the offensive spell that everyone gets at D+ Faith. Hypothetically, what if we added a new spell that everyone learns at that level instead that served as a slightly worse analogue for Fire. Let's say Shine: might 2, weight 3, hit 90, uses 8. Obviously this is nothing exciting, but it's usable as a fallback when you run out of Seraphim charges, in the same way that Fire is usable after you run out of Thoron or Bolganone or whatever else.

This would then free up Nosferatu to be made into a much stronger, higher level spell with fewer castings. Keep its weight and accuracy the same, bump its might up to 10 and its uses down to 3, or something along those lines, and I think it would be a much more intesting spell. It could then be added as a higher-end Faith option for a few characters. Byleth, Lorenz, Ingrid, Dorothea, and Balthus would be interesting options, I think.

Yeah, that would probably work pretty well. Though I would like it to be accurate. The reason they didn't do that probably has less to do with Three Houses and more to do with Shadows of Valentia, where Nosferatu is the default attack spell of white magic. And for that game it makes a certain degree of sense, as magic costs HP. So if you're healers are killing themselves healing your army, how can they in turn be healed? The answer is to steal HP from the enemy. That's the theory anyway. In practice you stick the first ring you find on your healer and the Regen makes the HP cost of spells almost obsolete. Three Houses doesn't have such wide access to HP restoring methods, but it also doesn't have the reason a white mage might need to steal HP in the first place. As they're very much characters you don't want to see taking hits in the first place.

Though, while buffing Nosferatu sounds great, I'm not sure I'd be all that excited about the suggested Shine. It would be useful for giving mages more charges early on if they train both, but it's kind of boring to just have Fire but as white magic. I feel it lacks, idk, a niche. I'm not sure what I'd suggest that could make it sufficiently interesting while also low level. Maybe the Breath of Life effect to heal surrounding allies when you attack? Yeah, I think that could be cool and play into the strengths of what your white magic is meant to be accomplishing.

And if we're talking about adding more white magic, it'd be really cool if Thani was in the game. They let anyone use rapiers, why not toss the ball of armour extinction on a few characters?

[lenticular]

31 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yeah, that would probably work pretty well. Though I would like it to be accurate. The reason they didn't do that probably has less to do with Three Houses and more to do with Shadows of Valentia, where Nosferatu is the default attack spell of white magic. And for that game it makes a certain degree of sense, as magic costs HP. So if you're healers are killing themselves healing your army, how can they in turn be healed? The answer is to steal HP from the enemy. That's the theory anyway. In practice you stick the first ring you find on your healer and the Regen makes the HP cost of spells almost obsolete. Three Houses doesn't have such wide access to HP restoring methods, but it also doesn't have the reason a white mage might need to steal HP in the first place. As they're very much characters you don't want to see taking hits in the first place.

I think the accuracy on Nosferatu is fine as is. It has 80 hit, which is the same as Thunder or Ragnarok. Or an Iron Lance. It just feels that much worse because most characters don't want to take "Faith Lv x" skills. Offensive white magic is bad, so you don't build around it, which makes it even worse. Though, that said, even if you do build around it, the actual hit buffs that you get from it are lower than for pretty much any of the other Prowess style skills. So maybe that's where we need an accuracy buff.

31 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Though, while buffing Nosferatu sounds great, I'm not sure I'd be all that excited about the suggested Shine. It would be useful for giving mages more charges early on if they train both, but it's kind of boring to just have Fire but as white magic. I feel it lacks, idk, a niche. I'm not sure what I'd suggest that could make it sufficiently interesting while also low level. Maybe the Breath of Life effect to heal surrounding allies when you attack? Yeah, I think that could be cool and play into the strengths of what your white magic is meant to be accomplishing.

Well, I'm glad you're not excited by it because I did deliberately make it just about the least exciting spell possible. You're not wrong that it lacks a niche, but I think that's fine. It would just be a basic bread and butter sort of option. There's not really a big difference between an Iron Sword and an Iron Lance either. The real advantage would be to allow you to train Faith more easily, and to potentially skip cross training Reason on characters where it made sense. And then if you went Holy Knight, you'd be able to get the damage boost on it from the -faire skill.

I wouldn't be opposed to a Breath of Life style effect, but I'm not sure how that could be balanced. If it's comparable to Fire but has healing on top, then pretty much every mage would want to use it instead of their Black Magic option. If it's considerably worse than Fire then it would run into the same problem as Nosferatu has, where the healing effect just wouldn't be worth it if the spell was otherwise dreadful.

[Jotari]

25 minutes ago, lenticular said:

 

I wouldn't be opposed to a Breath of Life style effect, but I'm not sure how that could be balanced. If it's comparable to Fire but has healing on top, then pretty much every mage would want to use it instead of their Black Magic option. If it's considerably worse than Fire then it would run into the same problem as Nosferatu has, where the healing effect just wouldn't be worth it if the spell was otherwise dreadful.

I think a breath of life effect would be more situationally better than outright better than fire. Because Breath of Life is not considered a great skill at all in Heroes. Even with the smaller maps it's rarely convenient enough that you're adjacent to an ally and in range of an enemy and that ally needs healing and it needs to be better than competing skills. That last point wouldn't be as relevant on a weapon such as I've suggested, but when something is based on positioning it's going to inevitably be more situational than outright great.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

The real problem with Light magic? It's not light. In fact, it's quite heavy. Want to offset Nosferatu's 8 Weight? You'll need 40 Strength. No Mage is hitting that. And very few of them would be training Armor, to get the Weight-offset skills. Plus, the other spells are all heavier! Measured against Abraxas (13), the only heavier spells are siege spells, Quake Sigma, and Hades Omega.

Generally speaking, I'd advocate trimming a few points of Weight off of every Light magic spell. But there's an even less invasive approach: give Holy Knight Weight-5 as a class skill (in place of Terrain Resistance). That way, they could use Nosferatu with no Attack Speed penalty, while suffering minimally with heavier ones. Plus, there's more reason to use the class over Dark Knight now. The Weight offset would apply to Reason spells and magical weapons, too, so there are niche cases where a unit could double in Holy Knight, but not in Dark Knight.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

And if we're talking about adding more white magic, it'd be really cool if Thani was in the game. They let anyone use rapiers, why not toss the ball of armour extinction on a few characters?

Could be fun - Thani is probably my favorite Rapier-type weapon in the series. We'd definitely want to keep access limited, though - maybe to a few units you wouldn't normally run in magical classes, like Catherine or Raphael? Give those weird "off-builds" a smidge more reason to exist.

 

2 hours ago, lenticular said:

Hypothetically, what if we added a new spell that everyone learns at that level instead that served as a slightly worse analogue for Fire. Let's say Shine: might 2, weight 3, hit 90, uses 8. Obviously this is nothing exciting, but it's usable as a fallback when you run out of Seraphim charges, in the same way that Fire is usable after you run out of Thoron or Bolganone or whatever else.

Not a bad idea. If we're consciously making the spell strictly worse than Fire (and Wind BTW), perhaps we should up the use count even further? To 12, or maybe as high as 16? It would just really suck to get your Noble/Commoner up to D+ Faith, onlyto be rewarded with... 4 wimpy charges. It's the "earlygame Dorothea problem", all over again.

[Dark Holy Elf]

6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

It doesn't help that it arguably needs even more effort to qualify for than Great Knight, which is the poster child for disproportionately high requirements 

I don't see the argument. Great Knight requires A / B+ / B+, while Holy Knight requires A / B+ / C. The difference between a B+ and a C (the relevant difference here) is 660 exp. That's well outside the range where other considerations (e.g. what classes the units are spending time in en route to the master class) might tilt things. Great Knight is fairly clearly the most expensive master class to reach.

I think you've often kneejerk overrated the costs of getting a single C-rank skill by Level 30; 300 exp is a small amount by that point in the game. In fact, if one plans to reach >80% certification rate, it is actually cheaper/easier in every way to reach A/B+/C (e.g. for Holy Knight, Dark Knight, or Falcon Knight), than it is to reach A/A (e.g. for War Master or Gremory), because the difference between B+ and A (360 exp) is higher than the difference between C and E (300 exp).

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

On the topic, I don't think it's right to say white magic spells are bad. Nosferatu is pretty inaccurate, but balancing Nosferatu is a challenge the series has never quite managed. But Seraphim, Aura and Abraxes are all serviceable if not amazing.

Seraphim is good and Nosferatu has a clear use, albeit a niche one. But Aura and Abraxas are both pretty bad, IMO, especially Aura, which is the least accurate spell in the game in practice. Abraxas is the better of the two, but still not great: comparing it to Ragnarok it has +4 weight, -1 uses, -1 might, and their hit might as well be equal once the relevant Prowess skills are considered.

Definitely agree with @Shanty Pete's 1st Mate that light magic could have used a weight reduction across the board. Drop Abraxas by 6 weight and suddenly it has some edge in that comparison with Ragnarok.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

And if we're talking about adding more white magic, it'd be really cool if Thani was in the game. They let anyone use rapiers, why not toss the ball of armour extinction on a few characters?

I think they might be a bit leery about using that name since it's Micaiah's signature, but I'd still like this quite well. It would be rather similar to Dark Spikes, but since only two characters get Dark Spikes I think expanding this niche is fine. And you could make Thani quite different, i.e. more uses, lighter (let's go for the full RD reference and make it 1 weight, why not), and less power. This would leave it clearly worse than Dark Spikes against enemies too fast for it to double, but absolutely great at shredding them if you are doubling. Set its power well and it could probably kill even Holy/Dark Knights when doubling which Dark Spikes can struggle with.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I don't see the argument. Great Knight requires A / B+ / B+, while Holy Knight requires A / B+ / C. The difference between a B+ and a C (the relevant difference here) is 660 exp. That's well outside the range where other considerations (e.g. what classes the units are spending time in en route to the master class) might tilt things. Great Knight is fairly clearly the most expensive master class to reach.

I think you've often kneejerk overrated the costs of getting a single C-rank skill by Level 30; 300 exp is a small amount by that point in the game. In fact, if one plans to reach >80% certification rate, it is actually cheaper/easier in every way to reach A/B+/C (e.g. for Holy Knight, Dark Knight, or Falcon Knight), than it is to reach A/A (e.g. for War Master or Gremory), because the difference between B+ and A (360 exp) is higher than the difference between C and E (300 exp).

The issue here is that because most white magic spells are non-offensive, and the offensive white magic spells mostly suck, any prospective Holy Knight pretty much MUST train reason as well. That's four ranks you're working on, before the obligatory authority rank. Of course, it doesn't help matters that most characters don't even get 2 offensive white magic spells, leaving those poor souls with Nosferatu as their sole offensive white spell.

4 hours ago, SnowFire said:

@Shadow Mir: Have you ever actually built a Holy Knight?  3H is a long game so "no" is totally fine as a response.  I agree that the limited uses of White Magic is an issue (incidentally, you asked about Aura vs. Abraxas before, and Aura having fully +50% more uses is part of why I'd rather have it than Abraxas), and giving Holy Knight some extra shots of Seraphim / some other White spell woulda been handy, but it's not like you can't use Black Magic in the class, or a Levin Sword for that matter.  You'll miss out on Black Tomefaire, which is unfortunate, and you might have to spend a skill slot on Black Proficiency, but you won't truly "run out of gas" and be stuck with nothing.  (And some Holy Knight candidates also have relevant magic-related Combat Arts, of course.)

Honestly?  Nope, nope, nope. For all the hoops I have to jump through for it, it's a letdown in practice. It looks like the modern FE equivalent of Karla; basically, work your butt off for something that fails to justify the investment. 

Re: Aura, I'm gonna have to agree with the above sentiment about it being inaccurate; it may not look so on the surface, but faith only gives +10 hit at max, whereas reason gives +20 hit at max, meaning in practice, Aura is gonna have worse hit rates than the likes of Bolting.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Seraphim is good and Nosferatu has a clear use, albeit a niche one. But Aura and Abraxas are both pretty bad, IMO, especially Aura, which is the least accurate spell in the game in practice. Abraxas is the better of the two, but still not great: comparing it to Ragnarok it has +4 weight, -1 uses, -1 might, and their hit might as well be equal once the relevant Prowess skills are considered.

I've never had an issue with Aura. It might lose to Ragnarok in a 1:1 comparison, but you either A) probably don't have Ragnarok or B)Want to use a powerful spell more than 3 times per map. I've specifically used Aura with Byleth even though they also have Ragnarok.

My issues with Nosferatu's not actually that bad hit rate probably comes down to the fact that if I'm in a situation where I'm using Nosferatu then I'm probably using it for a reason and can't really afford the miss. I did genuinely try to give Byleth a Nosferatu build once abusing New Game+ and it turned out very middling.

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I think they might be a bit leery about using that name since it's Micaiah's signature, but I'd still like this quite well. It would be rather similar to Dark Spikes, but since only two characters get Dark Spikes I think expanding this niche is fine. And you could make Thani quite different, i.e. more uses, lighter (let's go for the full RD reference and make it 1 weight, why not), and less power. This would leave it clearly worse than Dark Spikes against enemies too fast for it to double, but absolutely great at shredding them if you are doubling. Set its power well and it could probably kill even Holy/Dark Knights when doubling which Dark Spikes can struggle with.

Unfortunately that probably is the case. It's funny how the older spells that were prfs, Aura, Excalibur, Ragnarok, managed to transition over to regular spells, but it hasn't happened to any newer prfs. Might have even happened to the Falchion if Genealogy didn't decide to make Naga the boss killing weapon.

[Dark Holy Elf]

27 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I've never had an issue with Aura. It might lose to Ragnarok in a 1:1 comparison, but you either A) probably don't have Ragnarok or B)Want to use a powerful spell more than 3 times per map. I've specifically used Aura with Byleth even though they also have Ragnarok.

My issues with Nosferatu's not actually that bad hit rate probably comes down to the fact that if I'm in a situation where I'm using Nosferatu then I'm probably using it for a reason and can't really afford the miss. I did genuinely try to give Byleth a Nosferatu build once abusing New Game+ and it turned out very middling.

For me the usual reason I'm using Nosferatu is to one-round an armour with an injured mage and fully heal them as a bonus, saving someone else a healing action. Its hit rate is great against armours. I admit I don't use it against much else.

Aura has some use, but only really in the sense that every spell has some use. It does have reasonably high power, it just has much worse numbers than other similar spells. If it's the only high-powered spell you have (either because it's literally the only one, or you're worried about running out of uses on another) then sure, it has some niche. But if I had to rank every single offensive spell in Three Houses, Aura is likely sitting in last place. (I might be forgetting something; I'm open to a challenge on this statement!)

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

The issue here is that because most white magic spells are non-offensive, and the offensive white magic spells mostly suck, any prospective Holy Knight pretty much MUST train reason as well.

This is fair, but if we're using Holy Knight, I think we can assume that we're training Faith more than Reason (else we'd be using Dark Knight). So I'd imagine Reason is probably sitting at C (for the spell earned at that level... interestingly, most suggested Holy Knight candidates learn Thoron) or perhaps C+ for Prowess 3, at least before any incidental extra training from usage. Either way, that's still cheaper than Great Knight.

Also, I'd say Great Knight (and indeed most class builds) is likely training another skill or skills as well. What class do you imagine them going through in Advanced tier? There are several possibilities, but I think it's fair to say the most common choice is Paladin, so that will require some Lance training. And you'll probably want a better ranged option than javelin/hand axe, so you can probably add a bit of bow training too.

[Jotari]

9 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Aura has some use, but only really in the sense that every spell has some use. It does have reasonably high power, it just has much worse numbers than other similar spells. If it's the only high-powered spell you have (either because it's literally the only one, or you're worried about running out of uses on another) then sure, it has some niche. But if I had to rank every single offensive spell in Three Houses, Aura is likely sitting in last place. (I might be forgetting something; I'm open to a challenge on this statement!)

I was going to bring up those very points. There is no spell you don't want to have in Three Houses. Because unlike every other non Valentia game, they don't take up inventory slots. So you can always use them in a situation where they are needed. Thoron is objectively better than Fire, but that doesn't make Fire useless. You run both of them, using Fire when Thoron would be overkill and using Thoron when Fire isn't good enough. My original statement on the matter is that the White Magic offensive spells are servicible, if not great, which I think is a good way to describe them.

Thani would genuinely be great though!

Edited November 2, 2023 by Jotari

[Dark Holy Elf]

@JotariYeah, I agree with all of that.

I was just a bit surprised at your original statement, which grouped Aura and Abraxas in with Seraphim and implied they were superior to Nosferatu, just because that's very different than how I would rank these spells. And while I agree that any spell is better than nothing once you have it, I will say that Aura and Abraxas are high on the list of spells I may not even bother learning. Particularly egregious in cases like Annette who gets nothing after C faith until A; I'm not investing 800+ points just to get such a limited-value addition to her spell list. (Though to get back on topic a bit, I suppose I would if I was using Holy Knight Annette, since at that point it would have a notable power lead on Excalibur.)

[Cysx]

On 10/30/2023 at 6:20 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I think there's a slim case for Rhys, if you want to use the Matrona staff. The only other potential users are Laura, Oliver, and Micaiah. Of this bunch, Rhys has the most realistic path to SS Staves, without requiring an Arms Scroll. Sephiran can use it, granted, but only in the final final map.

Just to acknowledge it, my counterargument about Micaiah was incorrect ! She can only reach A staves at tier 2.

11 hours ago, Jotari said:

Unfortunately that probably is the case. It's funny how the older spells that were prfs, Aura, Excalibur, Ragnarok, managed to transition over to regular spells, but it hasn't happened to any newer prfs. Might have even happened to the Falchion if Genealogy didn't decide to make Naga the boss killing weapon.

Well Ragnarok was never a Prf, OG Delthea could always use it. And Aura and Excalibur were prf-only for all of one game, different philosophies back then I suppose

[ping]

BlaBla - Priscilla good. She's just better than Serra in pretty much every way, and even when Pent arrives, it's easy for me to find room for both of them.

BinBla - I actually don't like Clarine that much -  the dodgetanking after promo is great, yes, but training her up takes away XP from another healer that can become a more useful staffbot than her. She's still good as a secondary healer until Cecilia arrives (who, in turn, is good as a secondary healer until Niime arrives), of course, and if you do get there, the dodgetanking is admittedly very fun.

PoR - I prefer Mist over Rhys, all things considered - the increased movement is always nice, and she isn't quite as squishy as him once she got some levels under her belt. But of course, she still joins very underleveled and healing just isn't as high-demand in PoR as it is in other games. The help in Ike's first 1v1 is appreciated, too, of course, although you don't really need to use Mist otherwise for that. BEXPing her to 10 and then promoting isn't that expensive at that point - but on the plus side, that gives her some very minor utility in general, even with the diminished stats from a promotion that early.

RD - Never found much of a place for Mist in this one. Her start is pretty appaling, and she doesn't feel good to invest into, either. In the tower, Miccy is forced, so that's one healer spot taken, and Elincia is basically a better Mist if you want a second staffer. Maybe if her personal sword had been magical...

SacSto - yeah, L'Arachel isn't nearly as good a unit as she is funny as a character. Even Natasha is considered too low-leveled to be really worth investing into, so that's an indication of just how much grinding you'd have to do for L'Arachel.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

5 hours ago, Cysx said:

Just to acknowledge it, my counterargument about Micaiah was incorrect ! She can only reach A staves at tier 2.

Jeez, Micaiah really gets no love. Even promoting her to Light Priestess will only lift her Staff rank to B, if she hasn't already hit it. Of course, if you get her to A beforehand, then she can get to SS with two Arms Scrolls. Whether it's worth doing so, or else bringing Rhys, for three charges of a slightly souped-up Physic, is at the player's discretion.

3 hours ago, gnip said:

Maybe if her personal sword had been magical...

"Radiant Dawn" and "Magical Weapons", name a less iconic duo.

[Cysx]

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Jeez, Micaiah really gets no love. Even promoting her to Light Priestess will only lift her Staff rank to B, if she hasn't already hit it. Of course, if you get her to A beforehand, then she can get to SS with two Arms Scrolls. Whether it's worth doing so, or else bringing Rhys, for three charges of a slightly souped-up Physic, is at the player's discretion.

I still don't think it's ever really worth bringing Rhys just for that. You already have Micaiah on constant healing duty regardless.

Thing only has three uses, too.

[Whisky]

@Dark Holy Elf thanks for supporting my points. I agree with your defenses.