Mythic Hero - Veyle: Gentle Dragon

[Ice Dragon]

2 hours ago, ARMADS!!! said:

I figured Ótr was human, and Ullr too (unless you consider that she's some sort of elevated human because of her pact but then you'd be able to say this about every holy blood bearer)

Otr is a dvergr. Ulir is human, but is not a Heroes character.

[Etrurian emperor]

2 hours ago, ARMADS!!! said:

Yeah, specially  when the main story of FEH ends, we'll be deadly short on mythics,

The obvious solution to that would be to add Mythic characters who are….well, actually Mythic. Characters like Anri, Roland or Soan rather then just any random Heroes OC they can’t fit on a banner.

[Jotari]

8 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

The obvious solution to that would be to add Mythic characters who are….well, actually Mythic. Characters like Anri, Roland or Soan rather then just any random Heroes OC they can’t fit on a banner.

We'll certainly be getting them. It'd be weird if Ullhr were the only one. But it's going to be weird when does sort of non characters are the only Mythics there are (plus they're almost all males, Ullhr was such a bad choice to break into that part of the series for several reasons). They really should have been spread throughout the lifespan of Heroes earlier. To give a tentative list of potential remaining Mythics, I think we can say we have

Definitely Mythic Material

*Athos

*Sombron

*Deghensea

*Lehran/Sephiran

*Ashunera

Probable Legacy Characters

*Anri

*Cornelius

*Roland

*Durban

*Heim

*Baldr

*Nall

*Bragi

*Fjalar

*Thrud

*Ced

*Od

*Hodor

*Dainn

*Njorun

Possible Legacy characters who lack proper artwork

*Hartmut

*Barigan

*Hanon

*Soan

Legacy characters who might not be notable enough

*Artemis (if Anri gets in her chances improve though)

*Caldas and all the other Archanean backstory characters with the possible exception of Iote

*The two named heroes from Sacred Stones (hilarious if they give us the three unnamed ones first though)

*Sofia I and Rigel I

Weird Cases As Far As Precedent Goes

*Forseti (also of Lewyn or not an alt?)

*Base Anankos (is the fallen version base Anankos?)

*Good Anankos (is he considered a separate character to Anankos)

My Personal Pipe Dream That Won't Happen

*Old Mystery Artwork Male Naga

 

In total I'd count 20 "viable" Mythics left with a full half of them all coming from the crusaders of Jugdral. Which with a slowed rate of about three new Mythics per year can keep them going for six or seven years. Though it would be weird (but not unwelcome) if every other banner was from Jugdral.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Jotari

[Ice Dragon]

27 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Possible Legacy characters who lack proper artwork

*Hartmut

*Barigan

*Hanon

While the story of Hasha is not considered canon, it's still an official publication like the artbooks, and I think we can consider the character designs from it for characters that don't appear in Binding to still be considered canon.

 

Personally, I don't really see them ever actually bothering to fill out the crusaders, given the number of them and their general irrelevance. I imagine Fala and Neir to be the most likely to be released due to them having weapons that aren't usable by playable characters (and aren't usable by Ishtar).

The generals, on the other hand, are more likely to all get in. Athos, Roland, and Durban are all actual characters in Blazing, and Hartmut has the novelty of being a potential dual wielder as well as having high-resolution art in Hasha. Hanon has an okay chance of getting in due to being female, being cavalry, and using a bow, as there is a rather distinct lack of both cavalry and bows among Mythic Heroes. Barigan is the least likely of the generals to get in, but he's still also a cavalry unit.

It's actually interesting just how few cavalry Mythic Heroes there are given how useful mobility is in Aether Raids.

[Jotari]

26 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

While the story of Hasha is not considered canon, it's still an official publication like the artbooks, and I think we can consider the character designs from it for characters that don't appear in Binding to still be considered canon.

That I would not take as a given. I mean, I wouldn't dismiss it entirely either. But until they actually do pull artwork from a manga I'd consider it a Schrodinger's character design. They have shown themselves willing to pull from artbooks and Mario Kart, so they could, but, to my knowledge, so far they haven't. And we might just end up getting an actual Binding Blade remake in the near future that might give canon designs to those characters.

A related but less likely scenario would be, could they just make up an entirely new character design for an established character, specifically for Soan. Because armoured beasts, and specifically lions, are not in huge reserve. They might just decide a lack of human design isn't going to stop them putting Soan in the game. As far as I can recall the only real original design we've had on this sort of thing is Naga's dragon form, which is a weird spectral thing that doesn't appear in any mainline games (unless it's meant to be based off of the Naga tome even though it doesn't look remotely like it).

26 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Personally, I don't really see them ever actually bothering to fill out the crusaders, given the number of them and their general irrelevance. I imagine Fala and Neir to be the most likely to be released due to them having weapons that aren't usable by playable characters (and aren't usable by Ishtar).

More a sort of a case where of the game runs long enough they eventually will. Like, they're basically zero chance they'll fill out the entirety of Thracia's playable roster, but the longer the game goes on the more of them will eventually get in as long as they remain comitted to providing entirely new characters. Though, unlike New Heroes banners, there is a chance they might retire Mythics as a concept entirely if they ever run out of interesting candidates before the end of the game's lifespan.

26 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

It's actually interesting just how few cavalry Mythic Heroes there are given how useful mobility is in Aether Raids.

I guess that can be chalked up to most Mythic candidates being either dragons or wizards. Of the list of (non OC) Mythic characters they've used already, he only one they really could have given a horse to was Ullr. Which might have been a good choice to distinguish her from her descendants. Of the ones to come, aside from Barigan, Fala and Neir could get ponies if they so choose. Really all the crusaders are up for any movement type except the Thracian ones, but, while they're not the main inheritors, we have Lex and Azelle as a basis for horse Fala and Neir over something random like armoured Blaggi.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Jotari

[Ice Dragon]

10 minutes ago, Jotari said:

That I would not take as a given. I mean, I wouldn't dismiss it entirely either. But until they actually do pull artwork from a manga I'd consider it a Schrodinger's character design. They have shown themselves willing to pull from artbooks and Mario Kart, so they could, but, to my knowledge, so far they haven't. And we might just end up getting an actual Binding Blade remake in the near future that might give canon designs to those characters.

What makes an officially licensed manga any less official than an artbook? Or even Cipher for that matter (considering we have multiple units that are based off of outfits originating from Cipher)?

It's unlikely that Yamada Kotaro was given free reign to design Hartmut himself for the manga (or any of the other original characters, for that matter), and he likely would have received at least some input from Intelligent Systems.

There's no reason to redesign Hartmut when they probably already have a character sheet for him lying around in an archive somewhere (other than the fact that they would need to design armor for him).

 

25 minutes ago, Jotari said:

More a sort of a case where of the game runs long enough they eventually will. Like, they're basically zero chance they'll fill out the entirety of Thracia's playable roster, but the longer the game goes on the more of them will eventually get in as long as they remain comitted to providing entirely new characters. Though, unlike New Heroes banners, there is a chance they might retire Mythics as a concept entirely if they ever run out of interesting candidates before the end of the game's lifespan.

Currently, 21 of the 37 Mythic Heroes (including Veyle) are Heroes characters, and we get an average of slightly less than 8 Mythic Heroes each year, which comes out to an average of just over 3 non-Heroes Mythic Heroes each year.

Roland, Durban, Athos, Dheginhansea, Lehran, Ashunera, and Sombron are already enough to get us through another 2 years, and by then, there will probably be another new console game that they can get at least another 2 or 3 new characters from to last another year before ever needing to touch the remaining crusaders or the generals that don't appear in the games themselves, though they'll probably give us at least one of the crusaders somewhere in between to have some more diversity in source game along with Anri. That gets us through most of 2027. We're not running out of candidates anytime soon.

[Jotari]

22 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

What makes an officially licensed manga any less official than an artbook? Or even Cipher for that matter (considering we have multiple units that are based off of outfits originating from Cipher)?

It's unlikely that Yamada Kotaro was given free reign to design Hartmut himself for the manga (or any of the other original characters, for that matter), and he likely would have received at least some input from Intelligent Systems.

There's no reason to redesign Hartmut when they probably already have a character sheet for him lying around in an archive somewhere (other than the fact that they would need to design armor for him).

We really do not know if that's true at all. Duma and Mila also had human designs from a manga which they didn't utilize at all when they remade Shadows of Valentia. Which also redesigned a bunch of characters that had already been in an actual video game before. How much they care about the manga designs, or even the mangas at all, is not something we can determine until they either use a manga designs or pointedly ignore one. There is no strong reason to believe they will definitely give us Hartmut and he will definitely look like he does in the manga. They might give us an original design, there could be a remake in the works with a new design for him, or they might not give us Hartmut at all. I'm not going to balk and act surprised if we do end up getting manga Hartmut, but to treat it as an absolute guarantee seems a baseless assumption.

22 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Currently, 21 of the 37 Mythic Heroes (including Veyle) are Heroes characters, and we get an average of slightly less than 8 Mythic Heroes each year, which comes out to an average of just over 3 non-Heroes Mythic Heroes each year.

Roland, Durban, Athos, Dheginhansea, Lehran, Ashunera, and Sombron are already enough to get us through another 2 years, and by then, there will probably be another new console game that they can get at least another 2 or 3 new characters from to last another year before ever needing to touch the remaining crusaders or the generals that don't appear in the games themselves, though they'll probably give us at least one of the crusaders somewhere in between to have some more diversity in source game along with Anri. That gets us through most of 2027. We're not running out of candidates anytime soon.

That's what I said earlier. 20 viable units at about 3 new ones a year could last six or seven years. The weird thing, as I said, is that only a handful of them are actually characters we see in the games, and that the legacy characters probably should have been spaced out a bit more before now.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Jotari

[Florete]

Though I wasn't super confident, I was previously thinking Veyle would not be a mythic and would instead be a normal new hero and eventual legendary. With the benefit of hindsight, though, I think I've reasoned out why they took this path with her:

1. They likely wanted to get her in the game sooner rather than later, but they probably have Solm and Elusia banners lined up next, where Veyle wouldn't slot in well.
2. There aren't very many mythic candidates in Engage if you don't count the Emblems. Sombron and...who else? Lumera maybe could have been one, but she's already a GHB. While Veyle feels more akin to Tiki, Ninian, and Myrrh, she still technically fits the bill for a mythic.
3. On the other hand, there are a LOT of legendary candidates. F!Alear is already here, and the next immediate options are M!Alear, Alfred, Diamant, Ivy, and Timerra. Then Celine, Alcryst, Hortensia, and Fogado could also fill in.

I didn't play Engage DLC so I don't know how those characters fit in all this.

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

We really do not know if that's true at all. Duma and Mila also had human designs from a manga which they didn't utilize at all when they remade Shadows of Valentia. Which also redesigned a bunch of characters that had already been in an actual video game before. How much they care about the manga designs, or even the mangas at all, is not something we can determine until they either use a manga designs or pointedly ignore one.

That has nothing to do with their designs being from a manga format. They redesigned L.I.T.E.R.A.L.L.Y. E.V.E.R.Y.O.N.E. from Gaiden for Echoes, including all of the characters that had official art (which was all of the playable characters), and that includes Alm and Celica.

You're also ignoring the reason why they redesigned everyone from Gaiden, and that's because they all had dated designs, and almost everyone other than Alm and Celica looked extremely generic. The Elibe games are not even close to being in a similar situation as Gaiden.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Ice Dragon

[Jotari]

39 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

That has nothing to do with their designs being from a manga format. They redesigned L.I.T.E.R.A.L.L.Y. E.V.E.R.Y.O.N.E. from Gaiden for Echoes, including all of the characters that had official art (which was all of the playable characters), and that includes Alm and Celica.

You're also ignoring the reason why they redesigned everyone from Gaiden, and that's because they all had dated designs, and almost everyone other than Alm and Celica looked extremely generic. The Elibe games are not even close to being in a similar situation as Gaiden.

And they could have redesigned everyone to their manga designs, which are actually pretty decent, but didn't. That's my point. How much IS or Nintendo's care about their licensed mangas is an unknown. Until it's something they have done, we can't say it's something they will do; only something they might do.

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

decent

That's certainly an odd way to spell "dated". The character designs that I've seen look like they're from a shojo manga from the 90's, and that makes sense because the manga is in fact from 1992 and very much looks the part.

Hasha ran from 2001 to 2005, and while the art in the earlier chapters still looks dated (though 90% of that is Gant's face), the art in the later chapters is virtually indistinguishable from Yamada Kotaro's current art style and could easily pass for something drawn today.

 

It's pretty clear that the reason the manga designs for Gaiden were discarded (along with the original official art) is because they're outdated and not because they're from a manga.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Ice Dragon

[Jotari]

46 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

That's certainly an odd way to spell "dated". The character designs that I've seen look like they're from a shojo manga from the 90's, and that makes sense because the manga is in fact from 1992 and very much looks the part.

Hasha ran from 2001 to 2005, and while the art in the earlier chapters still looks dated (though 90% of that is Gant's face), the art in the later chapters is virtually indistinguishable from Yamada Kotaro's current art style and could easily pass for something drawn today.

 

It's pretty clear that the reason the manga designs for Gaiden were discarded (along with the original official art) is because they're outdated and not because they're from a manga.

Well that's your subjective opinion. I guess we shouldn't expect any more Jugdral characters at all since their designs are almost thirty years old now.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Jotari

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Well that's your subjective opinion. I guess we shouldn't expect any more Jugdral characters at all since their designs are almost thirty years old now.

Mystery is where the character designs actually start becoming stable. However, the modern designs for Akaneia and Genealogy come from series 2-5 of the old trading card game, so that's objectively where the line is drawn for what counts as being "too old".

[Jotari]

12 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Mystery is where the character designs actually start becoming stable. However, the modern designs for Akaneia and Genealogy come from series 2-5 of the old trading card game, so that's objectively where the line is drawn for what counts as being "too old".

A)That's acceptable to you personally.

B)It's the same design whether it's updated artwork or not (well for plenty of characters if not literally all).

C)So is this going to move forward and become too old as the original art from the trading card game becomes too old? If Heroes runs for another twenty five years will the first year units have to be exercised from the game because they're too old? This bias, is, quite frantically, ridiculous.

D)But this is the really important one...why do you care and what are you even trying to say? You really like to drag these things into some kind of conflict, don't you? All I'm trying to say is that precedent doesn't exist until it exists. And for Heroes, using designs or characters from any of the various mangas is not a precedent that exists. That is objectively true. Like, I am not wrong in saying that. It's a true statement. And I'm not taking a hardlined stance saying it can't happen in the future, only that it can't be treated as an inevitability. Why are you so eager to shout down such an incredibly centrist and moderate opinion? Are you even taking the radical stance that "Yes, Hartmut will definitely get into the game and he will definitely look like this", or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing because that's what you enjoy doing?

[Ice Dragon]

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

A)That's acceptable to you personally.

My opinion doesn't change the fact that IS is still using the designs from the TCG and onward and has discarded the designs from the NES era.

 

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

C)So is this going to move forward and become too old as the original art from the trading card game becomes too old? If Heroes runs for another twenty five years will the first year units have to be exercised from the game because they're too old? This bias, is, quite frantically, ridiculous.

Why would the current designs ever be considered in need of a complete redesign like the characters in Gaiden?

All of the games from Mystery and onwards have had their character designs reinforced by the fact that they've been in continuous circulation in other official media after the original releases of their games through the TCG, Cipher, and Heroes. They don't have the liberty to significantly change the character designs in the future because the characters have been continuously identified with these designs this entire time. Even if the original designs from the TCG are eventually considered "too old" in the future, there would still be the designs in Cipher, which are the same designs. When the Cipher designs become too old, there's still Heroes, which again uses the same designs. When the Heroes designs become too old, there's whatever comes after Heroes, which would use the same designs because it would've had Heroes and Cipher and maybe still even the TCG to base its designs off of, which would still be the same designs. There might be progressive refinement, but the designs won't be thrown away and redone completely because they have a history of use and reuse.

Gaiden, on the other hand, had virtually no representation in any other official media until it was remade as Echoes, having no representation in the TCG, no representation in Cipher until after the release of Echoes, and no representation in Heroes until after the release of Echoes (technically a few days before, but it was still tied to the release of Echoes and used the designs from Echoes). The only representation it saw was Alm and Celica getting new art in Awakening's DLC and the game having a SpotPass team in Awakening using 10 of its characters with their original official art.

 

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

D)But this is the really important one...why do you care

I care because someone is wrong on the interwebs.

 

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

You really like to drag these things into some kind of conflict, don't you?

Conflict? No, I'm just refuting the things you say because I think you are wrong, and each time you reply, you say something new, and I think the new thing is also wrong.

And doing additional research to support my arguments is fun, and it would be waste not to use it.

 

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

All I'm trying to say is that precedent doesn't exist until it exists.

"They can't release a Mythic Hero from Engage because we haven't gotten a Mythic Hero from Engage yet."

"But they've released Mythic Heroes from every other source console game."

"But not Engage yet. There's no precedent."

 

Engage is obviously not different enough from any other source game to warrant excluding it. TMS and Warriors obviously have potential licensing issues to deal with, but not Engage.

Why should a manga be considered different from any other format of official publication to warrant excluding it? (They may or may not own the rights to Hasha's original characters, but they clearly own the rights to Hartmut, so that's certainly not an issue.)

 

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

and what are you even trying to say?

I'm saying that your interpretation of what counts as precedent is too narrow.

[Etrurian emperor]

Veyle being a mythic Hero further shows the labels are kinda pointless now. Usually the female deuteragonist becomes a legendary Hero, probably because standing at the side of the main lord makes them legendary by association. Still Veyle's as solid a pick as they could have gone for. Given she's the female deuteragonist as well as ''moe'' her placement in such a monthly banner was inevitable and kinda deserved. 

[Tybrosion]

18 hours ago, Florete said:

I didn't play Engage DLC so I don't know how those characters fit in all this.

Nel and Nil are also Fell Dragon children of Sombron, so based on that alone they could also end up as Mythics if IS doesn't want to make a Fell Xenologue banner.

The other three (Zelestia, Gregory and Madeline), if their designs and similar names didn't already give it away, are simply good counterparts of Zephia, Griss and Marni (all of the Four Hounds) respectively. Since Zephia was made a GHB, I doubt they'll make Zelestia a Mythic. As for Gergory and Madeline, they're just humans with nothing mythical about them.

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

My opinion doesn't change the fact that IS is still using the designs from the TCG and onward and has discarded the designs from the NES era.

 

Why would the current designs ever be considered in need of a complete redesign like the characters in Gaiden?

All of the games from Mystery and onwards have had their character designs reinforced by the fact that they've been in continuous circulation in other official media after the original releases of their games through the TCG, Cipher, and Heroes. They don't have the liberty to significantly change the character designs in the future because the characters have been continuously identified with these designs this entire time. Even if the original designs from the TCG are eventually considered "too old" in the future, there would still be the designs in Cipher, which are the same designs. When the Cipher designs become too old, there's still Heroes, which again uses the same designs. When the Heroes designs become too old, there's whatever comes after Heroes, which would use the same designs because it would've had Heroes and Cipher and maybe still even the TCG to base its designs off of, which would still be the same designs. There might be progressive refinement, but the designs won't be thrown away and redone completely because they have a history of use and reuse.

Gaiden, on the other hand, had virtually no representation in any other official media until it was remade as Echoes, having no representation in the TCG, no representation in Cipher until after the release of Echoes, and no representation in Heroes until after the release of Echoes (technically a few days before, but it was still tied to the release of Echoes and used the designs from Echoes). The only representation it saw was Alm and Celica getting new art in Awakening's DLC and the game having a SpotPass team in Awakening using 10 of its characters with their original official art.

 

I care because someone is wrong on the interwebs.

 

Conflict? No, I'm just refuting the things you say because I think you are wrong, and each time you reply, you say something new, and I think the new thing is also wrong.

And doing additional research to support my arguments is fun, and it would be waste not to use it.

 

"They can't release a Mythic Hero from Engage because we haven't gotten a Mythic Hero from Engage yet."

"But they've released Mythic Heroes from every other source console game."

"But not Engage yet. There's no precedent."

I haven't said they wouldn't release any Engage Mythics because they haven't yet. That's twisting my words into a very obvious strawman.

5 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Engage is obviously not different enough from any other source game to warrant excluding it. TMS and Warriors obviously have potential licensing issues to deal with, but not Engage.

Why should a manga be considered different from any other format of official publication to warrant excluding it? (They may or may not own the rights to Hasha's original characters, but they clearly own the rights to Hartmut, so that's certainly not an issue.)

 

I'm saying that your interpretation of what counts as precedent is too narrow.

But I'm not wrong. Nothing from the manga has been used yet. That is a fact. And in a conversation like this it's a relevant fact.

I ask you again, are you saying that Hartmut will definitely get into the game and that he will definitely use his manga design? Or are you of the opinion it's possible he will get in and he will possibly use his manga design?

4 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Veyle being a mythic Hero further shows the labels are kinda pointless now. Usually the female deuteragonist becomes a legendary Hero, probably because standing at the side of the main lord makes them legendary by association. Still Veyle's as solid a pick as they could have gone for. Given she's the female deuteragonist as well as ''moe'' her placement in such a monthly banner was inevitable and kinda deserved. 

Legendary characters having to be in the game already kind of forced their hand on the Mythic option. As someone pointed out earlier, the next Engage banners will likely cover the other two nations leaving Veyle nowhere to actually fit on a new heroes banner. Their only other option would have been to toss her as an underwhelming unit as a Grand Hero Battle just so they could give her a legendary version later. But that making Sombron literally the only Mythic for Engage would sort of suck.

Speaking of Grand Hero Battle, we all feel like Lumeria was wasted there but no one's suggested an alternate to her. So I'm going to toss out an opinion, they should have made Nelucce the first Engage GHB. He's early enough in the game to be relevant on release, he's the only minor boss with even a modicum of personality, but, more importantly, he's actually a somewhat significant boss for the history of the series, being the first human boss to have revival crystals. Which I feel is going to be a big shift in how bosses are handled (of course Miklan was the very first with his beast form, and I do hope we see Miklan some day). 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Jotari

[Ice Dragon]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

I haven't said they wouldn't release any Engage Mythics because they haven't yet. That's twisting my words into a very obvious strawman.

That's not a strawman. That's an analogy. Replace "Engage" and "console game" with "manga" and "official publication" and you have your exact argument.

 

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

But I'm not wrong. Nothing from the manga has been used yet. That is a fact. And in a conversation like this it's a relevant fact.

And I haven't said otherwise. The problem is that you haven't made any arguments as to why the manga should be treated any differently than any other official publication in the same way that Engage shouldn't be treated any differently than any other main-series game. You've asserted "it's not the same" with no justification.

You asked this question:

17 hours ago, Jotari said:

and what are you even trying to say?

And I answered:

8 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

I'm saying that your interpretation of what counts as precedent is too narrow.

I am literally telling you exactly what I'm arguing, and you've been dodging it the entire time.

 

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

I ask you again, are you saying that Hartmut will definitely get into the game and that he will definitely use his manga design? Or are you of the opinion it's possible he will get in and he will possibly use his manga design?

Hartmut should be counted in the same category as the crusaders, and if he gets in, he is most likely going to use his manga design.

I don't use absolutes because I'm not a Sith. And also because using absolutes is the easiest way to be wrong.

 

And as an aside, Roland and Durban should be counted as less likely than Athos, but more likely than Hartmut and the crusaders.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Ice Dragon

[Acacia Sgt]

I'd say, reading all this reminds me how I wish they did made a Hasha no Tsurugi banner. They did got Cipher cards, at least...

Edited November 1, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

That's not a strawman. That's an analogy. Replace "Engage" and "console game" with "manga" and "official publication" and you have your exact argument.

Even assuming we can equate Manga and Games in a 1:1 basis, I never said we can't get characters from the manga. If you're not intentionally misrepresenting me here it means you're not listening to me.

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

And I haven't said otherwise. The problem is that you haven't made any arguments as to why the manga should be treated any differently than any other official publication in the same way that Engage shouldn't be treated any differently than any other main-series game. You've asserted "it's not the same" with no justification.

Because they've used designs and characters from the games before but they haven't used characters or designs from the manga before.

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Hartmut should be counted in the same category as the crusaders, and if he gets in, he is most likely going to use his manga design.

When they show a willingness to use manga designs, then yes,

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

I don't use absolutes because I'm not a Sith. And also because using absolutes is the easiest way to be wrong.

Well then we're in agreement.

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

And as an aside, Roland and Durban should be counted as less likely than Athos, but more likely than Hartmut and the crusaders.

And that's why I put Athos in the most likely category and Hartmut as less likely than Roland and Hartmut.

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I'd say, reading all this reminds me how I wish they did made a Hasha no Tsurugi banner. They did got Cipher cards, at least...

We've had Cipher concepts, but we haven't actually quite got Cipher characters yet. Even Fallen Chrom's design, while it references Cipher with his crown, actually looks rather different (he dresses in white in Cipher with a different armour design). The fact that the Cipher Valentian units aren't on CYL is a bit puzzling. Does it mean they never plan to give us the Cipher original characters even though they're in a game? Or does it mean they want to divorce Cipher from SOV because they actually want to give us all eight cipher units under their own branding?

And while we're on these questions, if we do get Cornelius, Marth's father, would he look like he does in the anime where he actually appears, or will they use the vague shadowy artwork from Shadow Dragon where his features seem obscured but still quite visible?

Edited November 1, 2023 by Jotari