Wasted Smash Bros. Moveset Potential

[Perkilator]

In your opinion, what is wasted potential in Smash Bros. when it comes specifically to a character’s moveset? Not the general gameplay or other content, just a playable character’s moveset.

The first thing that comes to my mind (that people haven’t said already) is Greninja’s Substitute. Greninja’s pretty fun otherwise but Substitute just being another counter is lazy. A more creative way they could’ve implemented Substitute into Greninja’s moveset is to have Greninja throw the Pokémon Doll onto the stage, then pressing down and B again would have Greninja appear where the doll is; think of it like Donatello’s Smoke Bomb is NASB 2.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

It always bugged me that PSI Magnet healed the user, when it's the MP Drain spell in canon. Of course, every one of Ness and Lucas' special moves are breaking canon because they don't learn any of them. Anyway, I don't like healing in fighting games. So if it were up to me, PSI Magnet would power up the next special move. Like Cloud's Limit Break mechanic, each one is the same attack but stronger with extra properties. Implying that the boys are spending more PP than they normally would on a higher tiered version of their spells. PK Fire Beta instead of Alpha could be a wider explosion. Thunder sends them further. You've got the classic cloud conundrum of him needing to burn his limit break to recover even when he didn't need the better version to make it - that rewards the opponent for knocking Cloud offstage and not having to worry about that Limit Break.

You could push the concept further to have Tier 3 Omega versions if you collect more charges, or alternatively turn Magnet into a new move when a charge is already absorbed - like Cloud's finishing Touch. I'd love to see a representation of PSI Rocking and PSI Love, since those are Ness and Lucas' signature moves from their games. We can also make it so that you gain a charge every time you boop the enemy with the magnet hitbox. That way this mechanic is still relevant in a matchup that has nothing to absorb, like against Captain Falcon

Edited November 9, 2023 by Zapp Branniglenn

[Perkilator]

Another one I just thought of was Little Mac; his counter should’ve been a perfect implementation of the Stars from the NES and Wii games. Every successful counter would earn you a Star, which would change your neutral special depending on how many you have

[indigoasis]

This is less what a move could have been and more of a personal gripe, but I never understood why you can't detonate Link's bomb rune when an opponent grabs it. It's probably a balancing thing to keep a fairly strong move from being even stronger, or maybe it's because the game recognizes held items as belonging to the player holding it (like Diddy Kong's banana), but it still bothers me. It's a remote bomb. I should be able to blow it up whenever I want. why is it that someone pressing A halfway across the stage to pick up something they should be avoiding completely negates one of my moves from working, it's dumb

[Fire Emblem Fan]

Ganondorf's entire moveset is walking wasted potential, to be honest.

[Jotari]

Are we talking about the way moves function or the moves characters have at all? If it's the latter then it's a major shame that Zelda has lost her light arrows in the transition to ultimate. She never uses or does anything remotely like Din's Fire, Nayru's Love or Farore's Wind in the games (unless you want to count her vanish as Sheik which is already another Smash move) and the Phantom works very differently in the one game (with a different Zelda) that it's connected to her. By far the most enduring thing about Zelda's combat abilities in the series is the Light Arrows. With her either creating or actively using them in almost every single appearance. And Byleth even provides a basic proof of concept of how they could work that would tie into her moveset very well.

In all games, and in all variations, Link's Spin Attack is wasted as a Special Attack. It's definitely an iconic attack for him, but making him fly up in the air with it is silly. Move it to his (or rather their) down smash and give us something better, or at least more interesting, for a recovery. Hookshot, Sailcloth/Deku Leaf, even Farore's Wind would be more appropriate in terms of lore and more interesting mechanically.

And if Sheik is seriously going to keep sticking around as a character long after Ocarina of Time, for crying out loud, please do something with the harp. Zelda as Sheik does exactly two things in Ocarina of Time, appear/disappear mysteriously and play music. They got that first one down, yet somehow never did anything with the second. It's amazing how little moveset potential a character can have and still miss the mark.

14 hours ago, Perkilator said:

In your opinion, what is wasted potential in Smash Bros. when it comes specifically to a character’s moveset? Not the general gameplay or other content, just a playable character’s moveset.

The first thing that comes to my mind (that people haven’t said already) is Greninja’s Substitute. Greninja’s pretty fun otherwise but Substitute just being another counter is lazy. A more creative way they could’ve implemented Substitute into Greninja’s moveset is to have Greninja throw the Pokémon Doll onto the stage, then pressing down and B again would have Greninja appear where the doll is; think of it like Donatello’s Smoke Bomb is NASB 2.

I could only see that being useful if we have custom specials and it's an alternative to Shadow Sneak, as otherwise it's largely functioning the same way. If we're to be authentic to the games, using Substitute should deal damage to Greninja, but should automatically block the next attack over a certain damage threshold. Which might visibly have issues looking good, but mechanically would be very interesting for Smash.

5 hours ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

Ganondorf's entire moveset is walking wasted potential, to be honest.

Thems be fighting words.

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by Jotari

[FV Belmont]

Toon Link being a clone of Link when Young Link was already a clone of Link. Young Link makes sense because it's literally younger Link, but Toon Link has always felt like a different character, at least to me. And I know he mostly exists in smash to take Young Links place pre-ultimate, but there were plenty of options for specials I was hoping for when I heard he was gonna be in.

DK kinda feels wasted, but idk what else you would be able to do with him. He kinda fills the role he was meant for just fine.

I was thinking they could rework characters like Kirby, Mega Man, Samus, Etc., who have a variety of possible moves, to play more like Shulk, as in, being able to choose from a pool of available moves, like how he changes abilities.

And as I was typing this, I was reminded of Mr. two spindashes and a spring. Yeah, Sonic's moveset definitely sucks.

[Zanarkin]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Thems be fighting words.

 

Is it though? The man has ranged attacks, the use of a small sword, a big sword, a trident, and a similarity with other characters due to being the re-incarnation of demise, why should he have an up-tilt that is 2.5 seconds long, or be a clone of captain falcon in terms of specials and some tilt attacks?

[Jotari]

13 hours ago, Zanarkin said:

Is it though? The man has ranged attacks, the use of a small sword, a big sword, a trident, and a similarity with other characters due to being the re-incarnation of demise, why should he have an up-tilt that is 2.5 seconds long, or be a clone of captain falcon in terms of specials and some tilt attacks?

He actually shares very little with Captain Falcon now after the changes over their years. It's basically just his aerials, throws and dash attack (which both of them also share with Samus). And looked objectively he is more representative of his in game abilities than a pretty hefty part of the cast, including fellow Zelda alumni, uh, Zelda. But more than anything else, because it's a great moveset 👍

if you want to know what I would change, I made a video on the topic

 

[Lightcosmo]

On 11/10/2023 at 6:27 AM, FV Belmont said:

Sonic's moveset definitely sucks.

Do what everyone does and base his moveset off of Sonic Battle. XD

[Perkilator]

You know what should've been Wario's down special instead of farting? The bomb that appears as the microgame timer. If anyone has ever played Darkstalkers or Marvel vs. Capcom 3, a character named Hsien-Ko has a move called Chukudan, where she tosses out a bomb with a set detonation time of 10 seconds, and it can be cartoonishly whacked around before hitting 0 and exploding. I feel like this kind of tool on Wario would drastically change his playstyle, but I love the thought of having a tool like that in Smash that not only applies some interesting stage pressure but also creates a minigame in itself mid-match, where you may find yourself whacking a bomb back and forth before the timer runs out, not unlike a WarioWare microgame where you have to act fast before the timer hits 0.

[Zanarkin]

On 11/10/2023 at 8:14 PM, Jotari said:

He actually shares very little with Captain Falcon now after the changes over their years. It's basically just his aerials, throws and dash attack (which both of them also share with Samus). And looked objectively he is more representative of his in game abilities than a pretty hefty part of the cast, including fellow Zelda alumni, uh, Zelda. But more than anything else, because it's a great moveset 👍

Aren't his specials very close to Falcons specials? I understand they have some differences in their effects, but the animations of down B, Up B, and Neutral B all look very falcon like. Even the side B looks similar, with the exception that Falcon hits instead of grabs. They behave somewhat differently when hitting, but I'd find it hard to agree the moveset of his specials isn't inspired from the captain.
 

I don't really know enough about Smash bros moveset or figthing game in general to be able to say what is a good kit or not. And I don't have too many issues with the particular way ganondorf plays. Creatively though, I do think they could do more to distance him from looking a lot like Captain Falcon. Like some of the stuff you mentioned in your vid (the trident move would be neat)

[Zapp Branniglenn]

On 11/9/2023 at 4:34 PM, indigoasis said:

This is less what a move could have been and more of a personal gripe, but I never understood why you can't detonate Link's bomb rune when an opponent grabs it. It's probably a balancing thing to keep a fairly strong move from being even stronger, or maybe it's because the game recognizes held items as belonging to the player holding it (like Diddy Kong's banana), but it still bothers me. It's a remote bomb. I should be able to blow it up whenever I want. why is it that someone pressing A halfway across the stage to pick up something they should be avoiding completely negates one of my moves from working, it's dumb

Ah. I can definitely envision them making that restriction during play testing. It's because if the opponent were holding it as they got launched offstage, Link could detonate and kill them extremely early. Like Snake's C4, except Link didn't find an opening to stick the opponent.

So you might say "don't pick up Link's bomb then". The problem is that Ultimate changed items so that you pick them up involuntarily whenever you do an A move near them. So here's the common scenario that was probably bothering them during testing: Link pulls a bomb and throws it at his opponent. The opponent is running toward Link and does a dash attack. They have caught the bomb. Link blocks the attack, shield grabs, and tosses them offstage. Detonation, death at 50%. Very frustrating. Even if it didn't kill outright, the bomb could detonate in the middle of someone's double jump and there's no reasonable way to guess when to air dodge the explosion (Ultimate also changed it so you get One Air Dodge per air time).

A good player would know to get rid of a bomb immediately, but Smash is built with players in mind that would fail to notice the bomb in their character's hands. And even a good player has no way of making their character Not pick up a nearby item. It's out of their control.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Zanarkin said:

Aren't his specials very close to Falcons specials? I understand they have some differences in their effects, but the animations of down B, Up B, and Neutral B all look very falcon like. Even the side B looks similar, with the exception that Falcon hits instead of grabs. They behave somewhat differently when hitting, but I'd find it hard to agree the moveset of his specials isn't inspired from the captain.

Genuinely, not really. The legacy is still there in that they're the same types of attacks. A powerful neutral special and burst option down special, but they have altered the animations and the different properties of the moves gives them very different applicabilities. Wizard's Foot is the special I would say is least different, meanwhile Dark Dive is the one I'd say is the most different. Falcon just launches upwards like an additional jump, but Ganondorf actively spins, follows it up with a punch and even if the move does connect he doesn't actively grab them and instead traps them with an electrical attack, which is actually somewhat reminscent of how Link is stunned when hit with an electrical attack in Ocarina of Time.

[indigoasis]

3 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Ah. I can definitely envision them making that restriction during play testing. It's because if the opponent were holding it as they got launched offstage, Link could detonate and kill them extremely early. Like Snake's C4, except Link didn't find an opening to stick the opponent.

So you might say "don't pick up Link's bomb then". The problem is that Ultimate changed items so that you pick them up involuntarily whenever you do an A move near them. So here's the common scenario that was probably bothering them during testing: Link pulls a bomb and throws it at his opponent. The opponent is running toward Link and does a dash attack. They have caught the bomb. Link blocks the attack, shield grabs, and tosses them offstage. Detonation, death at 50%. Very frustrating. Even if it didn't kill outright, the bomb could detonate in the middle of someone's double jump and there's no reasonable way to guess when to air dodge the explosion (Ultimate also changed it so you get One Air Dodge per air time).

A good player would know to get rid of a bomb immediately, but Smash is built with players in mind that would fail to notice the bomb in their character's hands. And even a good player has no way of making their character Not pick up a nearby item. It's out of their control.

Ah, okay. Thank you for the explanation. That always bothered me, but now it bothers me less.

[Perkilator]

I just thought of yet another bit of missed potential regarding Ganondorf; during the Phantom Ganon boss fight in Ocarina of Time, Phantom Ganon enters the paintings through a portal, and of course fights with a trident.

If Ganondorf in Smash wasn’t a clone, I could easily see his down special being one where a portal of darkness moves along the ground when B is held, and letting go opens the portal and Phantom Ganon’s trident pops out of the ground.