Jedah end goal and curing Dragon degeneration

[Nodeo-Franvier]

Shadow of Valentia introduced a pretty interesting plot point that is curing of Dragon degeneration,Throughout the game Jedah the high priest of Dumah faithful tried(and briefly succeed) in either capturing Celica to sacrifice her brand bearer soul to Dumah(purportedly to cure him,But there some lines of dialogue that muddled his true motivation)

 

Jedah: Cease your lamentations and come along, girl. I’ll send the boy to you shortly. That I can promise.

 

Celica: No! Not Alm! You swore to leave him alone!

 

Jedah: Keh heh heh… How hopeless a fool can you be? Rejoice, Lord Duma! I have brought the Brand-bearer who threatens your order. Take her soul unto you and feast!

 

Ultimately I still think Jedah true intention is curing Duma and securing the future of Rigel and Valencia however.

 

Aside from that the part about offering brand bearer to cure Duma degeneration doesn't seem that unsound considering how Loptous an inferior earth dragon can circumvent degeneration entirely using blood pact,It's hardly a strecht to think that Duma(and Mila) who's possibly the second strongest divine Dragon could employ a similar method.

 

A healed Duma(and maybe Mila) would do wonders for Valentia/Valm too considering the fact that Grima would popped out later(The combined power of Duma and Mila was able to check Naga AND her army for nine days straight)

 

Anyway that my take on the whole thing.

 

PS.It's a bit of a shame that we don't have Celiac sacrifice route in echoes

[Acacia Sgt]

Oh, hey, I remember this from the reddit. Well, just to have it on record here too:

I still stand on finding merit on Jedah being like the first one to actually try to see if dragon degeneration could be reversed. Even if his intentions aren't all that noble (he wants Duma to be the sole god of Valentia, so he's more than willing to throw Mila and her faithful to the wolves), his desire to see Duma cured is genuine. He does have a scene where he laments seeing Duma in his current condition, and there's no one else around so you can't say it's an act.

[Palasid]

Yeah Jedah definitely wanted to, at the very least, halt the degeneration of Duma (Whether he believes it can be cured? Maybe, he's crazy.). However, I think it would have simply been delaying the inevitable. By the time Grima comes around, Duma and Mila would have degenerated again too. Not to mention Naga did beat both of them, and she beat Grima too.

[Acacia Sgt]

Well, who knows. There's so little talked about it. It could be a permanent cure, could be a temporary one, could've not worked at all. At this point still anything goes, and I doubt we'll ever get an answer.

[Jotari]

Unfortunately, I think a line in the final battle tears down the idea that Jedah cared about degeneration.

Celica: Open your eyes, Jedah. No matter how it pains you, you must see the truth. Duma’s gone mad—he brings only suffering to his people now. This is the divine dragons’ fate.

Jedah: Silence, girl! You know nothing of what you speak. And if suffering is the gods’ will, what of it? Without their strength at its foundation, Valentia cannot sustain life.

Coupled with how Jedah makes no mention about curing Degeration to Duma when offering up Celica's soul and is kind of cackling over deceiving her, it suggests to me that he is so dedicated to Duma that it literally doesn't matter if Duma is mad. Duma's will is all that matters and if Duma goes mad that is because it's what Duma wants and thus it is good. He's falling very much on the "Good because god wills it" side of the Euthyphro dilemma. But overall it's a pretty dang muddled plot point that I'm not even sure the writers knew what they were doing with it. Like, did Duma taking Celica's soul have any effect on healing him? Was that effect reversed when Mila took Celica's soul back (or did Mila create a new soul for Celica?)? Why does Duma speak so rationale after he's killed (other than because there's no degeneration in Gaiden and they're taking the text from there)? Does death heal degeneration? Does any of the workings of this have anything to do with Nuibaba's belief she can get eternal life from Alm's soul? There's loads of good ideas in there, but all of them were sort of tried to be executed at once leaving a contradictory and unclear mess of motivations and mechanics. I think with a bit more order to it they could have turned Jedah into a character who genuinely does believe in curing degeneration, but when Alm and Celica take even the faintest hope of it out of his hand by choosing to support human agency, he snaps and ends up at the point in the quote above.

Edited December 17, 2023 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

7 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Unfortunately, I think a line in the final battle tears down the idea that Jedah cared about degeneration.

Celica: Open your eyes, Jedah. No matter how it pains you, you must see the truth. Duma’s gone mad—he brings only suffering to his people now. This is the divine dragons’ fate.

Jedah: Silence, girl! You know nothing of what you speak. And if suffering is the gods’ will, what of it? Without their strength at its foundation, Valentia cannot sustain life.

Coupled with how Jedah makes no mention about curing Degeration to Duma when offering up Celica's soul and is kind of cackling over deceiving her, it suggests to me that he is so dedicated to Duma that it literally doesn't matter if Duma is mad. Duma's will is all that matters and if Duma goes mad that is because it's what Duma wants and thus it is good. He's falling very much on the "Good because god wills it" side of the Euthyphro dilemma. But overall it's a pretty dang muddled plot point that I'm not even sure the writers knew what they were doing with it. Like, did Duma taking Celica's soul have any effect on healing him? Was that effect reversed when Mila took Celica's soul back (or did Mila create a new soul for Celica?)? Why does Duma speak so rationale after he's killed (other than because there's no degeneration in Gaiden and they're taking the text from there)? Does death heal degeneration? Does any of the workings of this have anything to do with Nuibaba's belief she can get eternal life from Alm's soul? There's loads of good ideas in there, but all of them were sort of tried to be executed at once leaving a contradictory and unclear mess of motivations and mechanics. I think with a bit more order to it they could have turned Jedah into a character who genuinely does believe in curing degeneration, but when Alm and Celica take even the faintest hope of it out of his hand by choosing to support human agency, he snaps and ends up at the point in the quote above.

I mean, he just had his plan stopped. When all his hard work is ruined, I would think he would snap. It reflects his dedication to serving Duma, for him to declare better a mad god than no god at all.

Also, I have a feeling that Duma's own madness may have been affected his Faithful in turn.

[Jotari]

19 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I mean, he just had his plan stopped. When all his hard work is ruined, I would think he would snap. It reflects his dedication to serving Duma, for him to declare better a mad god than no god at all.

Also, I have a feeling that Duma's own madness may have been affected his Faithful in turn.

Well as I said, if the story was better laid out that would have been the arc we'd have for Jedah. But the result of what we have just makes that an interpretation, and not one that is actually backed up all that much by the text. When Jedah actually does give Celica's soul to Duma he isn't reassuring Duma that things are going to get better or displaying any kind of concern for Duma's well being at all. He's just talking about Duma feasting on the soul and focusing on the power and pleasure it gives Duma.

Course on the other hand there is that one Chapter 2 scene just after Celica meets Saber where they show Jedah actually caring for Duma's well being and promising to deliver Celica to her. Which is honestly a bit of a pointless scene if he isn't sincere about healing Duma. So, yeah, I say it's a pretty damn muddled plot point.

[Acacia Sgt]

31 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well as I said, if the story was better laid out that would have been the arc we'd have for Jedah. But the result of what we have just makes that an interpretation, and not one that is actually backed up all that much by the text. When Jedah actually does give Celica's soul to Duma he isn't reassuring Duma that things are going to get better or displaying any kind of concern for Duma's well being at all. He's just talking about Duma feasting on the soul and focusing on the power and pleasure it gives Duma.

Course on the other hand there is that one Chapter 2 scene just after Celica meets Saber where they show Jedah actually caring for Duma's well being and promising to deliver Celica to her. Which is honestly a bit of a pointless scene if he isn't sincere about healing Duma. So, yeah, I say it's a pretty damn muddled plot point.

Yeah, that would've been a better way to do the whole thing. Specially since Jedah was meant to come off as a foil to Celica. Would also make Celica's decision to sacrifice herself to heal Duma/Mila come off as more plausible to happen, since SoV removed the Dracozombie trap Alm was in. In a way, it's why I think the Duma Faithful were being affected, since it would explain the actions/attitudes of... just about all of them. Those grayish to blueish skin tones they have can't just not be natural either, I'd think.

[Nodeo-Franvier]

My head canon is that degeneration is linked to the body of the Dragon(hence why Mila and Duma are lucid after death/on the verge of death) and Loptous escape degeneration by becoming a book

Perhaps if Duma was restored by Celica soul he could become Duma spear and take over Alm body,It's even easier for Mila since she's already a skull.

[Armchair General]

Yeah, to me, it sounds like it's something that's related to neurological decay, like Alzheimer's, for instance. Except that it consistently  forces dragons to start killing everyone as opposed to making them forget where did they leave the keys to their favorite temple or something like that. And the only other consistent trait of "dragon god madness" is that it happens to them after they've lived well beyond what their peers would consider "retirement age"

[Acacia Sgt]

3 minutes ago, Armchair General said:

Yeah, to me, it sounds like it's something that's related to neurological decay, like Alzheimer's, for instance. Except that it consistently  forces dragons to start killing everyone as opposed to making them forget where did they leave the keys to their favorite temple or something like that. And the only other consistent trait of "dragon god madness" is that it happens to them after they've lived well beyond what their peers would consider "retirement age"

A loss of fertility was also stated to be a consequence. In fact, it was the first symptom that something was wrong.

As it stands, I doubt it was something natural occurring. Or at least, that it was simply a sign of dragons becoming too old. Since it was affecting everyone regardless of age, and it came out of nowhere, despite the fact dragonkind had already been existing for thousands of years. The fact that severing themselves from their power (creating dragonstones) ended up being a solution to avoid degeneration points that it was their own power damaging their bodies (loss of fertility) and minds (mental degeneration). Why their own power turned against them... is what remains a mystery.

[Etrurian emperor]

I think Jedah trying to cure his god daddy is a pretty interesting take on Dragon degeneration. That's why I was kinda annoyed the game forgets that at the end and makes him go ''MUAHAHAH! NOW DUMA CAN RULE A LAND OF EEEEEVIL AND DOOM! MUUUHAHAHAHAAH!'' 

Even if we go with the interpretation that Jedah is corrupted by his faith then it still doesn't work because being a cackling villain was never exactly a core philosophy of Duma. 

[Acacia Sgt]

38 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I think Jedah trying to cure his god daddy is a pretty interesting take on Dragon degeneration. That's why I was kinda annoyed the game forgets that at the end and makes him go ''MUAHAHAH! NOW DUMA CAN RULE A LAND OF EEEEEVIL AND DOOM! MUUUHAHAHAHAAH!'' 

Even if we go with the interpretation that Jedah is corrupted by his faith then it still doesn't work because being a cackling villain was never exactly a core philosophy of Duma. 

True, it's not... but Duma is going mad through the degeneration. There's no evidence of it, but an argument could be made that it's literally being shared/transferred from Duma to his Faithful as well.

Edited December 17, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

20 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Yeah, that would've been a better way to do the whole thing. Specially since Jedah was meant to come off as a foil to Celica. Would also make Celica's decision to sacrifice herself to heal Duma/Mila come off as more plausible to happen, since SoV removed the Dracozombie trap Alm was in. In a way, it's why I think the Duma Faithful were being affected, since it would explain the actions/attitudes of... just about all of them. Those grayish to blueish skin tones they have can't just not be natural either, I'd think.

Jedah is pushing 150 years old, and we can probably safely assume the other faithful aren't entirely different. So the weird skin tones might have more to do with that. Though now that I think about it Sonya's sisters have the same skin tone and they're approximately her age. So it's certainly a process of some sort...unless it's just makeup. That feels like it might be startlingly possible.

5 hours ago, Armchair General said:

Yeah, to me, it sounds like it's something that's related to neurological decay, like Alzheimer's, for instance. Except that it consistently  forces dragons to start killing everyone as opposed to making them forget where did they leave the keys to their favorite temple or something like that. And the only other consistent trait of "dragon god madness" is that it happens to them after they've lived well beyond what their peers would consider "retirement age"

There's no evidence degeneration only hit old dragons. In fact, there's evidence to the contrary, as Naga and Gotoh were very afraid of Tiki degenerating even though she's already a manakete. In fact, given how most of the Manaketes we see our old men with beards, it seems that degeneration actually disproportionately effected the younger generation and the women. Tiki is literally the only child and the only female Manakete we see in any of the Archanean games. Well actually I suppose there's Nagi, but she came from a different world or something and may or may not be Naga, point is we see no female or remotely youthful looking Fire or Mage dragons. That's probably no an intentional plot point and more comes down from the combination of good ol' we're-not-quite-there-yet 90s sexism combined with the fact that the Manaketes are the bad guys and we only really see their military face.

Edited December 17, 2023 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Jedah is pushing 150 years old, and we can probably safely assume the other faithful aren't entirely different. So the weird skin tones might have more to do with that.

Well, the witches definitely aren't all that old. Only Nuibaba is. Yet they too have the unusual skin tones. So it's clear being tied to Duma changes you.

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

There's no evidence degeneration only hit old dragons. In fact, there's evidence to the contrary, as Naga and Gotoh were very afraid of Tiki degenerating even though she's already a manakete. In fact, given how most of the Manaketes we see our old men with beards, it seems that degeneration actually disproportionately effected the younger generation and the women. Tiki is literally the only child and the only female Manakete we see in any of the Archanean games. Well actually I suppose there's Nagi, but she came from a different world or something and may or may not be Naga, point is we see no female or remotely youthful looking Fire or Mage dragons. That's probably no an intentional plot point and more comes down from the combination of good ol' we're-not-quite-there-yet 90s sexism combined with the fact that the Manaketes are the bad guys and we only really see their military face.

I think this ends up being more a case of who listened to Naga's warnings. We know Medeus was the only Earth Dragon that did, so everyone else, even their old men, also succumbed to degeneration. Xane, a young man by dragon standards, listened to Naga as he was a fellow Divine Dragon so what she says, goes. That we mostly only see older-looking Manaketes could be chalked to this, perhaps.

Although, looking at the enemy Manaketes, they don't all look like old men. Khozen looks more middle-aged, but perhaps it's simply the lack of facial hair. Morzas looked old in his Mystery art, but the DS remakes made him younger-looking, complete with non-white hair. But yeah, they don't all represent the Manakete demographics, since there's likely many more we don't get to see.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Well, the witches definitely aren't all that old. Only Nuibaba is. Yet they too have the unusual skin tones. So it's clear being tied to Duma changes you.

I think this ends up being more a case of who listened to Naga's warnings. We know Medeus was the only Earth Dragon that did, so everyone else, even their old men, also succumbed to degeneration. Xane, a young man by dragon standards, listened to Naga as he was a fellow Divine Dragon so what she says, goes. That we mostly only see older-looking Manaketes could be chalked to this, perhaps.

Although, looking at the enemy Manaketes, they don't all look like old men. Khozen looks more middle-aged, but perhaps it's simply the lack of facial hair. Morzas looked old in his Mystery art, but the DS remakes made him younger-looking, complete with non-white hair. But yeah, they don't all represent the Manakete demographics, since there's likely many more we don't get to see.

Well, as I said, the reason all the enemy Manaketes are older men is not a result of degeneration. It's a result of sexism and seeing the military face of manakete society. Degeneration does however serve a nice in universe explanation for it if one wants to go looking, but it wasn't even a plot point when any of the manakete characters (except Brzark) were created. But when it did become a plot point it was specific mentioned to be a worry for the very young Tiki even as a manakete. So it's clear that degeneration must have either affected everyone, or disproportionately affected the young. There's no basis to conclude that it disproportionately affected the old.

Also given the nature of Xane, I don't think we could confidently conclude that his ginger twink default appearance is actually a true representation of his age. There's also Bantu as an example of another Fire Dragon who is no spring chicken. Our full sample of Manaketes seen in the games include

Bantu: Old man

Mannu: Old man

Khozen: barely looks human to begin with

Morzas: originally old man but made to look more middle aged (maybe 40s)

Xane: Shape shifter, but we can say younger man/teenaged boy

Tiki: Young girl

Gotoh: Old man

Medeus: Late middle aged at best maybe 50s.

Brzark: Same as Medeus, late middle ages at best.

So among the resident Manaketes of Archanea (so not counting Mila/Duma/Naga/Nagi), we have seven middle aged or elderly men and just two (coincidentally playable characters /sarcasm) younger Manaketes and only one female. If we do count Mila/Duma/Naga/Nagi then the ratios are a bit better (though I'll note Mila as an obvious manakete, Naga as an obvious woman and Nagi as a character at all are all post 90s ideas), but rather amusingly it would still give us cause to count another Old Man as counting the posthumous Naga would also give us reason to count Salamander as an old man as mentioned in Genealogy. We also know that Mila and Naga are probably older than they actually appear to be relative to other dragons.

Course another possibility is that degeneration did disproportionately hit the elderly and all the older male manaketes we see is just a simple result of the fact that it's been over a thousand years since degeneration started and they've simply aged into older men in that time, being children and youths when it first became a problem. We don't really have a full grasp on how they age relative to humans. Tiki's appearance in Awakening suggests something on the order of 100 years = 1 human year, but of course she's a Divine Dragon, its possible the other dragons age faster. Hell it's possible none of the manakete forms reflect their actual age and they all have Xanes ability to shape shift and fully choose to look how they appear. For all we know Brzark could be younger than Wendell. Overall I think the concerns about Tiki degenerating as a child still show that the youth we're not spared and that it was, at best, a universal problem for dragons of any age range.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

So among the resident Manaketes of Archanea (so not counting Mila/Duma/Naga/Nagi), we have seven middle aged or elderly men and just two (coincidentally playable characters /sarcasm) younger Manaketes and only one female. If we do count Mila/Duma/Naga/Nagi then the ratios are a bit better (though I'll note Mila as an obvious manakete, Naga as an obvious woman and Nagi as a character at all are all post 90s ideas), but rather amusingly it would still give us cause to count another Old Man as counting the posthumous Naga would also give us reason to count Salamander as an old man as mentioned in Genealogy. We also know that Mila and Naga are probably older than they actually appear to be relative to other dragons.

Duma and Mila aren't Manaketes. They left before the whole mess began. They wouldn't know they had to sever themselves from their power. The fact they still have human form shows shapeshifting is a power dragons have in general. So can we even trust the human forms they chose do reflect their age? Tiki seems to be an outlier in this, however.

Also, Forseti is described in supplemental material as being a young dragon. Don't know how young, but I feel it would indeed be Xane-age, so to speak.

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

Course another possibility is that degeneration did disproportionately hit the elderly and all the older male manaketes we see is just a simple result of the fact that it's been over a thousand years since degeneration started and they've simply aged into older men in that time, being children and youths when it first became a problem. We don't really have a full grasp on how they age relative to humans. Tiki's appearance in Awakening suggests something on the order of 100 years = 1 human year, but of course she's a Divine Dragon, its possible the other dragons age faster. Hell it's possible none of the manakete forms reflect their actual age and they all have Xanes ability to shape shift and fully choose to look how they appear. For all we know Brzark could be younger than Wendell. Overall I think the concerns about Tiki degenerating as a child still show that the youth we're not spared and that it was, at best, a universal problem for dragons of any age range.

Naga lived to 5000 and still could have the appearance of a "young maiden" as described in Genealogy. Or, again, it could just be the ability to shapeshift, but that still brings the other Manakete appearances suspect. She also had a premature death... and came back to life anyway. I have a feeling Archanean dragons, or at least just Divine Dragons... or at least just Naga and maybe anyone blood related to her, are simply immortal. And as Awakening shows, even death seems to be a minor nuisance as Naga just hangs out as a spirit on Mt. Prism.

Tiki's condition has always been presented as unique, from what I recall. Likely since she's Naga's daughter. Was it truly a threat of degeneration, or simply being overwhelmed by her power? Since she's already a Manakete, so there should be no threat of degeneration... yet there was. Yet it was possible to stave it off with the fully powered Fire Emblem, yet it seems to be a solution that only works on her. So I can't say we can use her to gauge how it was for other dragon children.

[Jotari]

8 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Duma and Mila aren't Manaketes. They left before the whole mess began. They wouldn't know they had to sever themselves from their power. The fact they still have human form shows shapeshifting is a power dragons have in general. So can we even trust the human forms they chose do reflect their age? Tiki seems to be an outlier in this, however.

Also, Forseti is described in supplemental material as being a young dragon. Don't know how young, but I feel it would indeed be Xane-age, so to speak.

Naga lived to 5000 and still could have the appearance of a "young maiden" as described in Genealogy. Or, again, it could just be the ability to shapeshift, but that still brings the other Manakete appearances suspect. She also had a premature death... and came back to life anyway. I have a feeling Archanean dragons, or at least just Divine Dragons... or at least just Naga and maybe anyone blood related to her, are simply immortal. And as Awakening shows, even death seems to be a minor nuisance as Naga just hangs out as a spirit on Mt. Prism.

Tiki's condition has always been presented as unique, from what I recall. Likely since she's Naga's daughter. Was it truly a threat of degeneration, or simply being overwhelmed by her power? Since she's already a Manakete, so there should be no threat of degeneration... yet there was. Yet it was possible to stave it off with the fully powered Fire Emblem, yet it seems to be a solution that only works on her. So I can't say we can use her to gauge how it was for other dragon children.

Gotoh specifically says she will degenerate and attack humans without the Shield of Seals.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

Just now, Jotari said:

Gato specifically says she will degenerate and attack humans without the Shield of Seals.

When she's already a Manakete. So that's already a contradiction. Hence why I think her situation is unique and not the norm.

[Jotari]

29 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

When she's already a Manakete. So that's already a contradiction. Hence why I think her situation is unique and not the norm.

Unique to our knowledge. The fact that they're concerned about it despite it never actually happening means they are either

A)Just very paranoid (understandable given Tiki's potential power, but drastic considering the remedy is taking away her childhood entirely).

B)They have other case studies that did go feral despite being Manaketes due to youth or specific tribe (and this might actually be the case for Duma-Mila, we actually don't know one way or another their status, and it is curious that Xane and Gotoh felt the need to outright throw away their divinestones)

C)They actually understand Degeneration pretty well by now and have enough info to make a predictive theory that Tiki specifically could degenerate.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Unique to our knowledge. The fact that they're concerned about it despite it never actually happening means they are either

A)Just very paranoid

B)They have other case studies that did go feral despite being Manaketes due to youth or specific tribe (and this might actually be the case for Duma-Mila, we actually don't know one way or another their status, and it is curious that Xane and Gotoh felt the need to outright throw away their divinestones)

C)They actually understand Degeneration pretty well by now and have enough info to make a predictive theory that Tiki specifically could degenerate.

If anyone actually researched into Degeneration, it was Naga, since she's the one who came up with the Manakete solution. Naga put Tiki to sleep precisely due to the danger. It doesn't change the fact the Shield solution is still Tiki-specific. No other Manakete is in danger. In fact, there's no other mention of Manaketes degenerating outside Tiki being in danger of it happening to her, and only her. So Duma and Mila degenerating is a sign they, in fact, aren't Manaketes.

And again, Tiki is no common Manakete. She's Naga's daughter. She's unique.

[Jotari]

14 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

If anyone actually researched into Degeneration, it was Naga, since she's the one who came up with the Manakete solution. Naga put Tiki to sleep precisely due to the danger. It doesn't change the fact the Shield solution is still Tiki-specific. No other Manakete is in danger. In fact, there's no other mention of Manaketes degenerating outside Tiki being in danger of it happening to her, and only her. So Duma and Mila degenerating is a sign they, in fact, aren't Manaketes.

And again, Tiki is no common Manakete. She's Naga's daughter. She's unique.

I feel like you've just repeated yourself there. My three points still stand. They're either paranoid, actual other Manaketes we don't hear of are at risk or there is some scientific method predictive reasoning for them to fear Tiki specifically.

16 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

So Duma and Mila degenerating is a sign they, in fact, aren't Manaketes.

Or it's a sign that Divine Dragons are at risk even if they are Manaketes, which is precisely why Gotoh and Xane threw away their stones.

[Acacia Sgt]

16 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I feel like you've just repeated yourself there. My three points still stand. They're either paranoid, actual other Manaketes we don't hear of are at risk or there is some scientific method predictive reasoning for them to fear Tiki specifically.

It's worth pointing out Gotoh talks about Tiki still being a child as a reason. Awakening seems to corroborate this as the Shield became orb-less again, but the now adult Tiki doesn't have to go into a deep sleep again. Even if she still sleeps a lot, she can be awake without much fuzz, even after she goes to pick up her power again in that Paralogue chapter.

The most you can get out of this is that it's only a threat for child Manakete, yet it's still being talked as being a Tiki-problem, not a child Manakete problem. The Shield is only ever talked to be for Tiki. It bears repeating since you seem incline to ignore it.

16 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Or it's a sign that Divine Dragons are at risk even if they are Manaketes, which is precisely why Gotoh and Xane threw away their stones.

Still no evidence Duma and Mila are Manaketes. If they threw their stones for that reason, then they would've just thrown Tiki's stone too, and not put her to sleep.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

It's worth pointing out Gotoh talks about Tiki still being a child as a reason. Awakening seems to corroborate this as the Shield became orb-less again, but the now adult Tiki doesn't have to go into a deep sleep again. Even if she still sleeps a lot, she can be awake without much fuzz, even after she goes to pick up her power again in that Paralogue chapter.

 

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

The most you can get out of this is that it's only a threat for child Manakete, yet it's still being talked as being a Tiki-problem, not a child Manakete problem. The Shield is only ever talked to be for Tiki. It bears repeating since you seem incline to ignore it.

It could be a Tiki specific problem by virtue of Tiki being literally the only child manakete they have left. Xane says the dragons face extinction even with the Manakete process being a seeming cure to Degeneration.

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Still no evidence Duma and Mila are Manaketes. If they threw their stones for that reason, then they would've just thrown Tiki's stone too, and not put her to sleep.

There is evidence Duma and Mila are Manaketes. For one, they haven't degenerated yet. They've only just started to instead of having done so a millenea and a half ago. We see no other even potential dragons-but-not-manaketes in the setting. As far as the Archanean games go it's either dragon or feral. The counter point there is that they don't live on Archanea and that the physical distance has allowed the degeneration to hit them at a different rate.

We also see Mila using an orb that very well could be her dragon stone when she fights Rudolf. Though it's red instead of white as all other art of divinestones are, still it's clearly something she's using in connection to channeling her powers.

Lastly, Duma might even be able to reproduce as there are White Dragons in his layer which don't fit into any other known Dragons of the setting. Them begin degenerated children of Duma is one explanation and suggests that the degeneration is influencing them differently as result of becoming Manaketes as sterility is typically the first sign.

Of course none of this is a smoking gun saying their Manaketes (though Mila's orb comes pretty close), but they are never expressly identified as non Manaketes either. Their status as such is simply left ambiguous.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

36 minutes ago, Jotari said:

It could be a Tiki specific problem by virtue of Tiki being literally the only child manakete they have left.

We only know she's the only Divine Dragon child left.

36 minutes ago, Jotari said:

There is evidence Duma and Mila are Manaketes. For one, they haven't degenerated yet. They've only just started to instead of having done so a millenea and a half ago. We see no other even potential dragons-but-not-manaketes in the setting. As far as the Archanean games go it's either dragon or feral. We also see Mila using an orb that very well could be her dragon stone when she fights Rudolf. Though it's red instead of white as all other art of divinestones are, still it's clearly something she's using in connection to channeling her powers. Lastly, Duma might even be able to reproduce as there are White Dragons in his layer which don't fit into any other known Dragons of the setting. Them begin degenerated children of Duma is one explanation and suggests that the degeneration is influencing them differently as result of becoming Manaketes as sterility is typically the first sign.

That's not really evidence. Since degeneration didn't hit all dragons at once. The way Xane explains it, some dragons had already gone mad when the rest had to choose between becoming Manaketes or join them.

"But suddenly, outta nowhere, their day of destruction came. At first, they couldn't bear children. Then they began to lose their minds, goin' berserk one after the next. The elders warned that the end of dragons as a species was approachin'. There was no longer any way to prevent it. However, there was one way they could survive: to discard their identities as dragons and live on as humans."

There's other ways that can potentially explain why it took too long for Duma and Mila. They being Divine Dragons, they being isolated from other dragons, etc.

That orb is certainly a mystery.

Please tell me Mila isn't the mother since as the only female dragon around...

It's worth pointing out the Artbook says White Dragons inhabit the coastal waters of Archanea, so they're not exclusively found in Valentia. In fact, Valentia only has the Necrodragons. White Dragons are very limited in number in the final dungeon. There are, in fact, more numerous in Thebes.

As for them not fitting... actually, there might be an explanation for that. As Xane explains, dragons actually are not native to Archanea. They arrived there tens of thousands of years ago.

"If you really wanna know... Tens of thousands of years ago, the dragon tribe settled down on this continent, and created a civilization. They possessed intellect and abilities far exceedin' those of humans."

So... where do they come from? Maybe from the place that has a lot of undead dragons roaming around. It's not a bad theory. Dragons used to live in Valentia, for long enough that enough of them died there. They then leave Valentia for Archanea. The corpses left behind would then become Terrors. Thus the Necrodragons and White Dragons that we see, since the White Dragon is simply a stronger Necrodragon. In Gaiden, and their SoV 3D models, they're simply recolored Necrodragons. So they're undead, not degenerated. They're even stated to be undead in their in-game description: Powerful dragon corpses reanimated by sorcery. The only actual degenerated dragons we fight are the Dagons and the Fire Dragons at Thebes. The Necrodragons, White Dragons, and Fafnirs are undead instead.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Acacia Sgt