Why PoR is better than RD

[samthedigital]

37 minutes ago, Uscari said:

I mean building the team with the strongest stats/skills/supports by the endgame. PoR rewards you much more for training growth units because there are very noticeable differences in their endgame potential compared to most prepromoted units. In PoR, Harr is way worse than Jill. Titania is way worse than Oscar. Bastian is way worse than Soren. The prepromoted units you get in this game are largely there to save you resources that you otherwise needed to invest in growth units.

41 minutes ago, Uscari said:

Different options is fun but you only take advantage of different options when there is a real trade-off to choosing them. It's not as fun if you aren't making a strategic decision by choosing a different option.

What about Soren compared to Tormod or Ilyana or comparing the individual Cavaliers? That's what I'm getting at. Unless I'm doing a speedrun or something (where Titania and Marcia are the best units in the game and Bastian is actually useful lol) the choice barely matters; the reward for picking the "best" option is likely just taking a little less time to kill enemies.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Uscari said:

It's clever that RD's story structure lends itself to using everyone in some capacity, and I like that about the game. But there's virtually no incentive to actually train most units that don't start out excellent. Why bother training any of the armor knights when you can just use Harr? Why bother training Rolf if you can just use Shinon? Why bother training Edward if you can just use Zihark? Again and again this dynamic plays out throughout the game. Yes you technically use what is in front of you, but any unit that isn't good at the start is relegated to being largely for utility, and training them confers no noticeable long-term benefit for a much longer time/resource investment.

Why use them? Because you want to (or the other unit's been killed). It's not like Path of Radiance lacks this either. Why use Lucia when you can use Stefan? He literally joins half a game earlier with every relevant stat being higher. Geoffrey will probably be on par with any paladin you've trained throughout the game. On the opposite side Bastian and Callil will suck compared to mage you've trained throughout the game because they had the genius idea to give Sages knives. Why use any of these unit? The answer is because you want to. Every Fire Emblem game has a disparity between characters and I don't see that as a bad thing.  And insofar as this can be considered a problem, it's one where Path of Radiance has it just as bad if not worse than Radiant Dawn (refer back to horses).

Edited April 14 by Jotari

[Uscari]

46 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

What about Soren compared to Tormod or Ilyana or comparing the individual Cavaliers? That's what I'm getting at. Unless I'm doing a speedrun or something (where Titania and Marcia are the best units in the game and Bastian is actually useful lol) the choice barely matters; the reward for picking the "best" option is likely just taking a little less time to kill enemies.

Tormod has celerity, a decent strength growth (allows for potentially doubling with siege tomes), and a double fire support with Reyson, which makes him a beast with investment. Illyana is the weakest of the non-prepromote mages, but even she comes with shade and has pretty good supports with Gatrie and Mordecai, two units that actually can be decent in Maniac Mode. The non-prepromote cavalies in PoR pretty much are all better statistically than the prepromoted ones you get when trained.

You might think these advantages don't matter, but I'm coming from the perspective of someone who played PoR Maniac Mode in an Ironman, and I found that the differences did matter. They probably don't matter in NA PoR in Hard Mode, but I found them pretty noticeable in Maniac.

42 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Why use them? Because you want to (or the other unit's been killed). It's not like Path of Radiance lacks this either. Why use Lucia when you can use Stefan? He literally joins half a game earlier with every relevant stat being higher. Geoffrey will probably be on par with any paladin you've trained throughout the game. On the opposite side Bastian and Callil will suck compared to mage you've trained throughout the game because they had the genius idea to give Sages knives. Why use any of these unit? The answer is because you want to. Every Fire Emblem game has a disparity between characters and I don't see that as a bad thing.  And insofar as this can be considered a problem, it's one where Path of Radiance has it just as bad if not worse than Radiant Dawn (refer back to horses).

Lucia and Stefan are both prepromoted units and not growth units so for me it's not that relevant which one is better in this discussion. I agree Stefan is better but I will point out that his abysmal luck is a liability in any playthrough without Ashera Icons. Geoffrey is absolutely NOT on par with the other paladins you train in the game. He's got good defense but that's about it, his speed, damage output, accuracy, and weapons are sub-par compared to the growth paladins. His biggest utility is plugging a chokepoint and 1-rounding Wyvern Lords in player phase with a forged silver bow, which is pretty nice, but nothing like what Oscar, Kieran, Makalov, or even Astrid can accomplish. Callil actually does not suck in PoR, and I think is actually the strongest prepromote you get in the game. Her stats are very comparable to Tormod when trained and comes with far better bases. The trade-off though is no celerity, worse supports, and no staff. Bastian (and Lucia) is hot garbage but that's more of an issue specifically with him than the game as a whole.

But even with their worse endgame potential, these prepromoted do have a strategic reason to be used, which is they cost less to invest in, and you still get serviceable alternatives without syphoning experience for other archetypes you want to train. They also are straight up there if you are doing an Ironman run and lost one of the better units earlier on.

I can't say the same about RD, because the high level units that join your group generally have the same endgame potential as the ones that needed to grow, because everyone hits their caps. There are some exceptions, like how Fiona and Astrid when trained are better than most of the other paladins, but it doesn't even matter because you get royals and you don't need them to be better than your other paladins, you just need 1-2 range canto units that can take a hit from magic spirits on enemy phase while you get your royals in position.

[samthedigital]

10 minutes ago, Uscari said:

The non-prepromote cavalies in PoR pretty much are all better statistically than the prepromoted ones you get when trained.

I'm not talking about the prepromotes here; just the statistical differences between the unpromoted cavaliers and mages.

11 minutes ago, Uscari said:

You might think these advantages don't matter, but I'm coming from the perspective of someone who played PoR Maniac Mode in an Ironman, and I found that the differences did matter. They probably don't matter in NA PoR in Hard Mode, but I found them pretty noticeable in Maniac.

Remember that I have also played and finished MM. I don't have the same experience as you. I definitely have not done an ironman of the game (PoR EP is too slow for me to have any interest in that sort of thing personally), but it's only one of many ways that the game can be played, and my guess is that someone else could do an ironman in a completely different fashion from you and still have similar success.

[Jotari]

41 minutes ago, Uscari said:

Tormod has celerity, a decent strength growth (allows for potentially doubling with siege tomes), and a double fire support with Reyson, which makes him a beast with investment. Illyana is the weakest of the non-prepromote mages, but even she comes with shade and has pretty good supports with Gatrie and Mordecai, two units that actually can be decent in Maniac Mode. The non-prepromote cavalies in PoR pretty much are all better statistically than the prepromoted ones you get when trained.

You might think these advantages don't matter, but I'm coming from the perspective of someone who played PoR Maniac Mode in an Ironman, and I found that the differences did matter. They probably don't matter in NA PoR in Hard Mode, but I found them pretty noticeable in Maniac.

Lucia and Stefan are both prepromoted units and not growth units so for me it's not that relevant which one is better in this discussion. I agree Stefan is better but I will point out that his abysmal luck is a liability in any playthrough without Ashera Icons. Geoffrey is absolutely NOT on par with the other paladins you train in the game. He's got good defense but that's about it, his speed, damage output, accuracy, and weapons are sub-par compared to the growth paladins. His biggest utility is plugging a chokepoint and 1-rounding Wyvern Lords in player phase with a forged silver bow, which is pretty nice, but nothing like what Oscar, Kieran, Makalov, or even Astrid can accomplish. Callil actually does not suck in PoR, and I think is actually the strongest prepromote you get in the game. Her stats are very comparable to Tormod when trained and comes with far better bases. The trade-off though is no celerity, worse supports, and no staff. Bastian (and Lucia) is hot garbage but that's more of an issue specifically with him than the game as a whole.

But even with their worse endgame potential, these prepromoted do have a strategic reason to be used, which is they cost less to invest in, and you still get serviceable alternatives without syphoning experience for other archetypes you want to train. They also are straight up there if you are doing an Ironman run and lost one of the better units earlier on.

I can't say the same about RD, because the high level units that join your group generally have the same endgame potential as the ones that needed to grow, because everyone hits their caps. There are some exceptions, like how Fiona and Astrid when trained are better than most of the other paladins, but it doesn't even matter because you get royals and you don't need them to be better than your other paladins, you just need 1-2 range canto units that can take a hit from magic spirits on enemy phase while you get your royals in position.

I don't see that difference as a meaningful difference. If the growth units turned out bad after training them then sure, there's an argument that there's no reason to invest in Leonardo or Rolf. But the result of investing in them is a genuinely good unit you can feel acomplished turning from a zero to a hero. So where's the issue? Use Shinon if you want. Use Rolf if you want, it'll be a little harder, but if you enjoy doing it then go for it. The game has 70 characters for you to choose that are different in their own unique ways.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 4/12/2024 at 8:00 PM, Uscari said:

Meanwhile there's no doubt in my mind that you could clear RD Hard Mode in a 0% growths Ironman, which is statistically impossible in PoR Maniac.

Another example of beating Maniac Mode in 0% growths. Of course, this one's an LTC, so it comes with certain risky strats. Still, that doesn't mean doing so as an Ironman is "statistically impossible". It just means a different, more reliable strategy would need to be found - even at a cost to turns.

On 4/10/2024 at 11:19 PM, Uscari said:

The Black Knight's character was also ruined when it was revealed that he killed a man in cold blood just because he wanted to beat his master.

What? The Black Knight was already "ruined" in PoR, when he threatened to Greil that he would torture his children. He's been ruthless from his first appearance. If anything, RD tried to make him more sympathetic.

On 4/10/2024 at 11:19 PM, Uscari said:

RD has a pattern of punishing the player for trying to invest in any unit that isn't good from the very start.

How so? Let's say I'm trying to raise Brad, and then Chad shows up. Chad is better than Brad in every way. Is this the game "punishing me" for training up Brad? Chad would've been just as strong regardless of whether I'd invested in Brad. So it's not like, by doing so, I've put myself in any worse a position.

The counter-argument is "the investment I gave Brad, I could've given to Tad instead". Maybe Tad, while not necessarily better than Chad, provides something that he's missing. Sure, I can see this being the case. But it's hardly unique to RD, and is almost certainly the case in PoR - and other titles - as well. Some units do more with the investment you provide them than others.

On 4/10/2024 at 11:19 PM, Uscari said:

1. No Fixed Mode

Strong agree with this one. It's a damn shame that Fixed Mode has never made a proper reappearance.

[ping]

8 hours ago, Uscari said:

But more fundamentally, sure in a large roster it doesn't hurt your experience that you have no incentive to train them, but if the developers bothered to add a unit into the game, wouldn't it have helped your experience if they made them worth using? From what I can tell from my limited experience in Fire Emblem, this franchise is character-oriented, so if you're going to add a character with their own story, motivations, and abilities, why tease the player with the option to train them but make them totally inaccessible in terms of training? Sure I guess it's a feature for challenge runs, but surely the player can come up with any variety of ways to do a challenge run without ruining the basic viability of the units. I'll never get the charm of funny-bad units.

I reject the premise that there is "no incentive" to train a bad unit. If your only goal is to beat the game, then sure - but I can offer the following counterpoint:

Beating this final boss with the pink armour knight wouldn't have been nearly as satisfying if she hadn't joined as a Lv.1 General, as one of the latest recruits in the game, with godawful base stats. Her base Str is the same as DOGA's, the Knight who joins in the very first chapter. There is one ch.1 unit that doesn't have better Skl than the Pink General - and that's the healer. The only good stat that matters for this fight is her Weapon Level, allowing her to use the legendary Gradivus - but with her base stats, she's four points of Str shy of dealing a single point of damage to the final boss. Her Def is genuinely great, sure, but the final boss just ignores that.

That was my incentive to use this awful unit: The challenge to set up the final boss kill for her, and a funny screenshot. PoR just doesn't offer the same thing - Ashnard has his magic plot armour, for starters, but PoR's bad units are all perfectly capable and easily trainable with BEXP (so there's not as big a "look at this cool thing I did" factor for a 20/20 Rolf), while still being "objectively" worse to field than somebody with wings, or at least hooves, and with an axe access, or at least lances.

 

[FRZNHeir]

I agree with the statement but not the reasons.

Spoiler

You think PoR is better than RD for mechanical/story reasons
I think PoR is better than RD bc Ike is a twink in PoR

we are not the same /j

But fr, I do think that Radiant Dawn suffers from scale. I feel like I didn't get enough time to actually care about the Dawn Brigade, outside of Sothe and Micaiah, but I will admit that is probably due to having spent an entire game with the Greil Mercenaries, and being excited to see how they had progressed as people. I think if the game was longer (and it's already long), it would have suffered from a player fatigue issue. It's a really weird spot to be in.


Also I agree with the support conversations take. I like them a lot and wish we had proper ones.
 

[Uscari]

On 4/15/2024 at 12:04 AM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Another example of beating Maniac Mode in 0% growths. Of course, this one's an LTC, so it comes with certain risky strats. Still, that doesn't mean doing so as an Ironman is "statistically impossible". It just means a different, more reliable strategy would need to be found - even at a cost to turns.

That example was actually shared earlier in the thread and they use the forge crit underflow glitch, so I don't take much stock in this example.

On 4/15/2024 at 12:04 AM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

How so? Let's say I'm trying to raise Brad, and then Chad shows up. Chad is better than Brad in every way. Is this the game "punishing me" for training up Brad? Chad would've been just as strong regardless of whether I'd invested in Brad. So it's not like, by doing so, I've put myself in any worse a position.

The counter-argument is "the investment I gave Brad, I could've given to Tad instead". Maybe Tad, while not necessarily better than Chad, provides something that he's missing. Sure, I can see this being the case. But it's hardly unique to RD, and is almost certainly the case in PoR - and other titles - as well. Some units do more with the investment you provide them than others.

That is pretty much the argument I am making. Both games do to some extent have this problem, but RD is almost built on this design while in PoR it is the exception, not the rule. The vast majority of trainee units in PoR do turn out noticeably better than their pre-promoted counterparts when trained. In RD there is either an insignificant difference, no real difference, or even in some cases actually turn out worse than the non-trainees.

On 4/15/2024 at 2:53 AM, ping said:

I reject the premise that there is "no incentive" to train a bad unit. If your only goal is to beat the game, then sure - but I can offer the following counterpoint:

Beating this final boss with the pink armour knight wouldn't have been nearly as satisfying if she hadn't joined as a Lv.1 General, as one of the latest recruits in the game, with godawful base stats. Her base Str is the same as DOGA's, the Knight who joins in the very first chapter. There is one ch.1 unit that doesn't have better Skl than the Pink General - and that's the healer. The only good stat that matters for this fight is her Weapon Level, allowing her to use the legendary Gradivus - but with her base stats, she's four points of Str shy of dealing a single point of damage to the final boss. Her Def is genuinely great, sure, but the final boss just ignores that.

That was my incentive to use this awful unit: The challenge to set up the final boss kill for her, and a funny screenshot. PoR just doesn't offer the same thing - Ashnard has his magic plot armour, for starters, but PoR's bad units are all perfectly capable and easily trainable with BEXP (so there's not as big a "look at this cool thing I did" factor for a 20/20 Rolf), while still being "objectively" worse to field than somebody with wings, or at least hooves, and with an axe access, or at least lances.

 

I guess this becomes a matter of preference. I don't want to take anything away from the joy you felt in raising a meme-tier unit to accomplish something outlandish, but I just prefer balanced units over this particular type of accomplishment.