What would the GBA games look like if Kaga remained in charge?

[Revier]

Obviously a very speculatory topic, given how the split went down, but I think there's enough material to guess.

First off, I'm sure FE6 wouldn't have been made with the same concept in mind. Not only had FE1 already gotten its own remake and reprise in FE3, but there wouldn't be a need for a "fresh reset" game if Kaga was still in charge. That said, I would certainly think he would attempt to tackle a new setting, FE5 was intentionally kept very low profile, implying that he didn't think Jugdral had much more to offer. It is fairly possible that he would go back to Valencia and flesh it out some more, after all he was clearly not satisfied by how the NES constrained his designs and, as far as I know, there was a lot of things left on the table during the creation of its game.

FE7 gets considerably trickier to pin down. We know that IS made it to both introduce Elibe to a broader audience as well as create a prequel to FE6. However, it obviously doesn't follow that Kaga would do the same thing. That said, we do know that this was the game that was made for international audiences, so I assume he would keep that in mind and either start anew with some ties to his older games, or attempt to create a game of greater scope, with the focus no longer on one continent alone but on an entire world.

For FE8, I do not have the slightest clue. I know that its current incarnation is partly an attempt to explore a darker setting, while also being a big callback to FE2. But ofc, in my current scenario, I assume he could consider doing it already.

But this is just me babbling a bunch. What do you think Kaga's vision of the GBA games would've been?

[Acacia Sgt]

I feel we would've instead gotten pretty much TearRing Saga but on the GameCube, and with the FE tie-ins intact (Kaga wanted Xane to show up in TearRing, if I recall). Would he had made a game for the GBA? Maybe, but I think he would've stick to consoles considering just how big were his projects post-FE.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Well for one thing, the series probably would have stayed on N64DD for FE6, and have far less odds of getting localized compared to our dimension's FE6 because we didn't even have that hardware outside of Japan.

I strongly believe that shifting to handhelds is a big part of the reason why Fire Emblem even exists in the current year. But in a late 90s context, handheld game development was a much lower prestige realm usually assigned to the most junior of staff. You would be handed a five year old NES game and be told "Make a version of this on Game Boy". Kaga may not have been amenable to the idea of downscaling his next entry. As of his time at Nintendo, the current handheld was still the stock Game Boy. And its successor the GBA struggled to run SNES games without concessions. AND getting delayed indefinitely to make room for this next set of Pocket Monster games.

Edited May 14 by Zapp Branniglenn

[Hrothgar777]

Wasn't FE6 based on that one canceled N64 title? So the story would've been pretty similar I'm guessing. Of course, the maps would be huge and I don't know if the GBA would be able to take that.

[Jotari]

I was going to say that Kaga left Nintendo because of the death Gunpei Yakoi, the creator of the Gameboy, and that relationship probably meant he wouldn't have seen a Gameboy Advance game as less prestigious, so we'd probably have seen Tear Ring Saga on Gameboy. But then I checked my dates and Gunpei Yakoi died in 97, two years before Thracia was released. So maybe I was entirely wrong about why he left Nintendo. Why did they part ways before the court case burned the bridge entirely?

[Acacia Sgt]

10 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I was going to say that Kaga left Nintendo because of the death Gunpei Yakoi, the creator of the Gameboy, and that relationship probably meant he wouldn't have seen a Gameboy Advance game as less prestigious, so we'd probably have seen Tear Ring Saga on Gameboy.

I still think it's a matter of scope. After all, Kaga never went for creating a FE game for the Gameboy (not that the GB couldn't house a decently-sized enough SRPG; just ask SRW 2G). Consoles have more space to work with, as it were.

10 minutes ago, Jotari said:

But then I checked my dates and Gunpei Yakoi died in 97, two years before Thracia was released. So maybe I was entirely wrong about why he left Nintendo. Why did they part ways before the court case burned the bridge entirely?

I think that is still largely unknown to the general public. However, it is possible that whatever caused it, began during Thracia's development. So it could indeed have been as early as 97-98 that it began.

[Shaky Jones]

FE6 Kaga Edition:

• All FoW maps are pitch black or white. You cannot see the rest of the map itself.
• Instead of Marcus, you'd have a different type of Jeigan new to the series at its time, like Sniper or Sage
• Bolting would have 33 uses
• Chapter 20 of Sacae would have twice as many ballistae
• Galle would be more reinforced throughout the story as the Camus archetype and Narcian would be a cuck.
• Endgame will feature brainwashed Guinevere. 
• Gaiden Chapter Reqs:
  • Chapter 8x: Defeat Legance using the armor triangle attack
  • Chapter 12x: Recruit Cath and clear in under 20 turns (she becomes green and Roy has to "rescue" her. You are not told to do this.)
  • Chapter 14x: Finding the Guiding Ring as Sophia is mandatory. 
  • Chapter 16x: Recruit Douglas (There will be an option to talk to him as Roy. This will not recruit him. He will blow himself up.)
    • Chapter 16x is FoW and has warp tiles
  • Chapter 20x Sacae: Have Roy get his A support with Sue on this specific chapter
  • Chapter 20x Ilia: Don't let any green unit die. Chapter 20 has twice as many ballistaes and 5 cavaliers spawn 3 times consecutively at the top right when the green units get near the destination point
  • Chapter 21x: Nobody Knows. Kaga Didn't Tell Us.
• If you try resetting, your save file is automatically deleted.
• 1RN
• Merlinus is actually a character
• Roy is still shit
• Iduun is still shit

 

FE7 Kaga Edition:

• Nergal brainwashes Lyn
• Nergal brainwashes Ninian (human)
• Nergal brainwashes Nino
• Eilwood's dad is replaced with Eliwood's mom
• Nergal brainwashes Eliwood's mom
• Chapter 19xx is actually easier to obtain

 

FE8 Kaga Edition:

• Tear Ring Saga

 

 

[Jotari]

40 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I still think it's a matter of scope. After all, Kaga never went for creating a FE game for the Gameboy (not that the GB couldn't house a decently-sized enough SRPG; just ask SRW 2G). Consoles have more space to work with, as it were.

I think that is still largely unknown to the general public. However, it is possible that whatever caused it, began during Thracia's development. So it could indeed have been as early as 97-98 that it began.

Sure he never created one for the original Gameboy, bit the Gameboy advance is a different matter. As I understand it, aside from some sound chip stuff, the Gameboy Advance is more powerful than the SNES. I see no indication that he's such a console purist that he would have ignored it just because it was a handheld. This is the guy (and the company) that stuck with the SNES long after the Nintendo 64 had been released. And even with Tear Ring they easily could have released in on the shiny new Play Station 2, but they stuck with the PS1, as Kaga seems to have the view of whatever works is sufficient.

One of the more internet things to see if could visit that timeline would be the potential for Binding Blade characters in Tear Ring. For as much as we laude the idea of an auteur, these corporate games are not the visions of individual people. The work of many goes into them. If the Binding Blade team were set to make Tear Ring then we could have got the likes of Sophia and Wolt showing up in that setting.

17 minutes ago, Shaky Jones said:

• Nergal brainwashes Lyn

Honestly, that would give Lyn some actual story presence, so a new positive in my book.

Edited May 14 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

25 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Sure he never created one for the original Gameboy, bit the Gameboy advance is a different matter. As I understand it, aside from some sound chip stuff, the Gameboy Advance is more powerful than the SNES. I see no indication that he's such a console purist that he would have ignored it just because it was a handheld. This is the guy (and the company) that stuck with the SNES long after the Nintendo 64 had been released. And even with Tear Ring they easily could have released in on the shiny new Play Station 2, but they stuck with the PS1, as Kaga seems to have the view of whatever works is sufficient.

According to this:

ＮＯＭ独占インタビュー!! (archive.org)

Last section. DeepL gives me this:

"I started working on "Thrace 776" around the beginning of last year. At first, I did not intend to make such a large work. It was supposed to be an offshoot of "Seisen no Keifu" and smaller in size. The production period was also supposed to be shorter. But as I was making it, I wanted to include more and more things.
　If it had to be like this, it would have been easier to make a new story from scratch. The reason is that it was very difficult to make the story consistent with the previous one. We had to make sure that people who had played the previous game would not feel any discomfort, and at the same time, we had to make it work as a stand-alone game.
　Well, I have various plans for the next installment in the series and for making software for the Nintendo-64, but next time, I really want to make an easier game (laughs). (Laughs) I want to make a game that is easy to play, even for players. Someday, I'm sure I'll be able to deliver such a game to the world."

The fact Thracia was meant to be a small work (akin to Archanea Chronicles?) and be complementary to Genealogy, it makes sense it'd still be made on the SNES despite how late in its lifespan was. Same platform as Genealogy, plus the N64 already had its own full-fledged project at the time (eventually cancelled, yes, but it was there).

Again, it's not about being a handheld. It's about how large any game made for it could be. Could TearRing have fit in a GBA cartridge? Maybe, but it's much easier for it to fit in a CD. Whether a PSX or NGC one. Or even a N64 Cartridge can hold more than a GBA one. As you said, IF it's sufficient. And if it's not?

[Jotari]

26 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

According to this:

ＮＯＭ独占インタビュー!! (archive.org)

Last section. DeepL gives me this:

"I started working on "Thrace 776" around the beginning of last year. At first, I did not intend to make such a large work. It was supposed to be an offshoot of "Seisen no Keifu" and smaller in size. The production period was also supposed to be shorter. But as I was making it, I wanted to include more and more things.
　If it had to be like this, it would have been easier to make a new story from scratch. The reason is that it was very difficult to make the story consistent with the previous one. We had to make sure that people who had played the previous game would not feel any discomfort, and at the same time, we had to make it work as a stand-alone game.
　Well, I have various plans for the next installment in the series and for making software for the Nintendo-64, but next time, I really want to make an easier game (laughs). (Laughs) I want to make a game that is easy to play, even for players. Someday, I'm sure I'll be able to deliver such a game to the world."

The fact Thracia was meant to be a small work (akin to Archanea Chronicles?) and be complementary to Genealogy, it makes sense it'd still be made on the SNES despite how late in its lifespan was. Same platform as Genealogy, plus the N64 already had its own full-fledged project at the time (eventually cancelled, yes, but it was there).

Again, it's not about being a handheld. It's about how large any game made for it could be. Could TearRing have fit in a GBA cartridge? Maybe, but it's much easier for it to fit in a CD. Whether a PSX or NGC one. Or even a N64 Cartridge can hold more than a GBA one. As you said, IF it's sufficient. And if it's not?

The last sentence of the quoted section is him outright expressing a desire to make an easier game. As for cartridge limitations, I don't see anything other than graphical limitations (and that should be in quotes because, as we all know, GBA Fire Emblem Sprites=Awesome) holding back the Gameboy Fire Emblem game. Compared to most series, Fire Emblem is not very technically demanding in its gameplay. It's all fixed turn based stuff. And the GBA games we did get are already pretty expansive full games with many chapters and even a world map in Sacred Stones (and that game was likely made by a junior team while most people were working on Path of Radiance). I don't see anything in that interview to suggest he'd have gone down a different avenue or had much of a different opinion compared to the Fire Emblem who did remain and continued the series on the Game Boy Advance.

Edited May 15 by Jotari

[Revier]

LOL pretty funny stuff @Shaky Jones.

As for series getting international releases, I doubt that had much to do with Kaga. It seems like with stuff like putting Roy and Marth in Smash that IS/Nintendo were planning to make the franchise more accessible regardless, and if Kaga's wishes had been the factor behind the games not getting international releases, I doubt they would have stuck to making FE6 Japan only even after he left.

Edited May 15 by Revier

[Jotari]

53 minutes ago, Revier said:

LOL pretty funny stuff @Shaky Jones.

As for series getting international releases, I doubt that had much to do with Kaga. It seems like with stuff like putting Roy and Marth with Smash that IS/Nintendo were planning to make the franchise more accessible regardless, and if Kaga's wishes had been the factor behind the games not getting international releases, I doubt they would have stuck to making FE6 Japan only even after he left.

Do we have any offical word on why Binding Blade was Japan only? Like, it does seem a bit strange. Unlike New Mystery, or even Genealogy and Thracia, it was released pretty early in the GBA's life cycle. They had enough time to make and translate two more games before the Gameboy Advance stopped being marketable. I'm sure if they translated and released it early in 2004 it could have been profitable. Maybe they were afraid of saturating their market with Fire Emblem titles being released so close together. Or maybe they just thought Binding Blade too difficult?

[Acacia Sgt]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Do we have any offical word on why Binding Blade was Japan only? Like, it does seem a bit strange. Unlike New Mystery, or even Genealogy and Thracia, it was released pretty early in the GBA's life cycle. They had enough time to make and translate two more games before the Gameboy Advance stopped being marketable. I'm sure if they translated and released it early in 2004 it could have been profitable. Maybe they were afraid of saturating their market with Fire Emblem titles being released so close together. Or maybe they just thought Binding Blade too difficult?

I would assume Nintendo was still in their "these games won't sell in the West" mindset, at least at first. It took Advance Wars being a success to help convince them, after all.

https://web.archive.org/web/20120426182037/http://www.edge-online.com/features/making-advance-wars?page=2

Quote

“When I joined Nintendo,” says Nishimura, “I was told that these kinds of games would never be successful abroad, because they were turn-based games, and turn-based games weren’t appreciated outside Japan. But we decided it was because these kind of games were too complicated. People are used to action games and shooting games, and in those all you have to do is press the A button and the B button and you’ll soon understand how to play.

"But for SRPGs, you’ve got to know the rules before you start. So, with Advance Wars, even though there wasn’t a plan to release it outside Japan, we made it really easy to play. We put a really good tutorial in, so people didn’t need to read the manual. And when the US marketing people played it they came to us and said: ‘But this is great! Why can’t we sell it over here?’ And it seems that Advance Wars’ success shifted Nintendo’s attitude over western tastes.” Nishimura, who also worked as director on Fire Emblem, makes it clear that game would never have been released in the west had AW not paved the way.

Now, AW was released in late 2001 in the US (early 2002 for Europe), and Binding Blade was released March 2002. How long it took before they realized FE could also sell well? Perhaps by then Blazing was already in development and decided to start there instead of translating the already released Binding. Maybe they thought a thorough tutorial was needed, and while Binding does have a tutorial map, they thought it wasn't enough? In the end, who knows. But yeah, it's curious they never thought to translate and rerelease. They could've pulled a Trials of Mana when Binding was added to the eShop. Or Nintendo Online.

Edited May 15 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I would assume Nintendo was still in their "these games won't sell in the West" mindset. It took Advance Wars being a success to help convince them.

https://web.archive.org/web/20120426182037/http://www.edge-online.com/features/making-advance-wars?page=2

Now, AW was released in late 2001 in the US (early 2002 for Europe), and Binding Blade was released March 2002. How long it took before they realized FE could also sell well? Perhaps by then Blazing was already in development and decided to start there instead of translating the already released Binding. Maybe they thought a thorough tutorial was needed, and while Binding does have a tutorial map, they thought it wasn't enough? In the end, who knows.

I mean after Blazing Blade was already released, they could have translated it and released it as a sequel. There was about a year and a half gap between Blazing Blade and Sacred Stones where it could have been released. Wouldn't have taken that much time to translate.