(Mafia Sucks) SF Mafia: The Revival - GAME OVER, Town Wins!

[Shinori]

I just woke up and I now have 5 pages to read so I'll catch up on that.

[Shinori]

7 hours ago, BBM said:

i don't love shinori's via vote and the whole exchange. it feels like cherrypicking only a certain part of the post without a holistic sense of via's play. also i just don't get the point of admitting as you're voting via that his play actually reminds you more of town but you want to see how he'll react under the pressure. a) admitting it's just a pressure-vote without a lot of feeling defeats the point and b) why use your pressure-vote on via to begin with instead of someone you find scummier? who do you even find scummy at the moment? what happened to your sb read?

If you are saying I'm cherrypicking the one POST out of all of via's total posts, then sure yeh maybe I am. The one post in a vacuum was something I disliked.  I read the one post, and it pinged me.  He stated that he said the same thing previously in the day phase and if they did, I probably missed it, but I'd probably say the same thing IF the wording was the same.

I do not agree with "I town read this person but I'm down to watch them flip so I can really look into the people on their wagon."

WRT bold I commented on the fact that the emotion felt town but the reaction could be Scum!Via cracking, and which that was I wasn't sure.  Admitting the vote was 'originally' a pressure vote was AFTER our exchange where the pressure already triggered a reaction and already gave me a response.  That means that being said, the pressure vote DID it's job and worked.  Admitting it's a pressure vote AFTER I gained info from it is fairly normal, so no it doesn't defeat the point.  Why use my pressure vote on via to begin with instead of someone I found scummy? BECAUSE THE POST WAS SCUMMY.  Now it feels like YOU are cherry picking the reaction between us because you deliberately left out parts of my replies and conversation with Via(my comment on scum!via, the fact that I only admitted it being a somewhat pressure vote after the entire conversation was already over and done with, the fact that I did find the post in question scummy.).

Who do I find scummy? I'll most likely answer this after I've the 5 pages I'm missing, but as of the time when you made this post my scum reads were:

SB = rapier > Weapons > Via > Prims

But that's largely subject to change, because I plan to get caught up on the thread and then go back and do some rereading.

Can't wait for this to be called a wall.

[Shinori]

For now I want to do this:

##Unvote:

Dunno if that requires a ping, I forgot what the unvote way was for the bot but, I think I'm probably dropping my perci scum read.

[Shinori]

7 hours ago, Makaze said:

I am struggling to see Shinori's agenda or plan for winning this game, and nothing they've done that actually improved their ability to read any players. They are commenting on facts that others have uncovered, but not coming to any conclusions. They are not getting closer to solving the game. What is their strategy?

You struggle to see my reasoning for how I'm getting my reads, just like other people seem to struggle to get your way of you getting your reads.

What's the difference?

Why is it okay for you and bad for me?  Could you expand upon this?  I have had plenty of interactions WITH players that I feel are giving me information in this game. Stuff that has lead to back and forth conversations and helped my ability to solve people repeatedly.  ME vs rapier, me vs perci, me vs SB are three examples of which two of those people are scum reads.  Commenting on "Facts others have uncovered" isn't bad, why is it bad to talk about what other people in the thread have talked about?  Mind you I have also talked about stuff that others haven't mentioned of which you can DELIBERATELY see that in my responses to SB, Perci, and Rapier, and this is proven by the fact that a lot of people talked about my reaction to each person individually, most of the specifically referencing my first post in the interaction towards each player.  This would be me bringing new information and pressing something that pings me to other's view.

7 hours ago, Makaze said:

Everything that Bluedoom does feels fake, or at least fakeable, and they have not mindmelded with me about anything. Their reads list makes no sense and contradicts my own opinions. Like most of my scum reads, he is not pushing a town agenda like forming a town core or making sure a specific scum is eliminated. Their actions are calculated and "fine", and that's the extent of it.

I am also looking at his associatives. Their Refa vote is extremely weird and I am entirely convinced Bluedoom is mafia if Refa flips red.

Someone doesn't need to mindmeld with you to be town, even if you are town.  There's a lot of fakable stuff in this game, but I think something that should be thought on is the fact that this is 4-6 years since some people have played a game so some people could just be rusty.  How do you read rust vs fake?  Also forming a town core has NEVER been an SF thing if you don't remember that, so holding that against them is kind of bad.

6 hours ago, j00 said:

"Would SFmafia really bus a buddy?" I mean

I am not on the scum team, so it loses some of it's chance for happening.

[Shinori]

6 hours ago, Makaze said:

I haven't read their reads on SB and via, and I think I'm tuning out reads about charlie because I have not slept in almost two days

Really?  A blatant ignoring of two of the biggest interactions I've had with players; "Haven't read them" "GAWD SHINORI ISNT DOING ANYTHING"  Followed by this vomit.

Also the makaze v rapier back and forth kind of feels like w/w or w/t to me.  I am scum reading rapier so I might be conf-biased in this, but the interaction between the two didn't seem normal.

Spoiler

6 hours ago, Makaze said:

I went ahead and read the Shinori-pervicale case, and I'm not seeing what Shinori is saying

10 hours ago, Shinori said:

10 hours ago, Percivalé said:

I'm not sure I want to elim weapons anymore However I'd be interested in seeing his alignment flip for the sake of analyzing his wagon because like I said earlier if he's town I think scum was on his case early in the game.

I'm not particularly fine with this train of thought.  I don't like it.  If you think Weapons is town why would you want them flipped any for any reason?  You could probably just break apart the people that voted them with a proper enough ISO and gain traction off of that.  Hell my vote is weak as a lot of people said.

Bolded also implies you were down to elim them previously, but then the second bolded part implies you thought this wagon was scum-fueled or had scum-intent behind it which is kind of backwards.  If you thought they were scum previously, then why would you think scum was pushing their wagon up to be voted?  And if there was scum doing that, then who exactly is the person that did?

This post kind of reads TMI to me, as if they feel they know Weapons flips town and wants to try and set up lynches based on it in the future.

##Vote: @Percivalé

Expand  

Shinori has assumed that Weapons must be town, so it seems like Shinori is acting with TMI instead of via. This assumes that the goal was attacking via and not convincing everyone that Weapons is town by proxy, which I am thinking might be the actual reason for this reaction.

10 hours ago, Shinori said:

Everyone's iffy on me, it's great.

10 hours ago, Percivalé said:

please shinori can you wait you're being really gung ho and I need a minute

Take your time, I was just posting things as stuff popped in my head.  I thought I was done, I sent the reply, then something else popped into my head so I typed again.  Don't feel rushed you got time.

 

10 hours ago, Percivalé said:

what does TMI mean in this context, too much information? 

Yeah, too much information.  As in it comes off with a vibe that you are accidentally kind of playing in a way that reveals you know how certain things will end up.  Seeing as it SEEMED like you PREVIOUSLY may have scum read weapons, but then hard swapped away from it as other people focused there and weapons gained traction.  You then, as you stated, didn't want to lynch weapons anymore, but were supposedly fine with it so you could analyze the votes on it, especially the earlier ones.

tldr;

"I think weapons is scum" - you
"Oh yeah maybe!" - other people
"Oh shit that worked, uh, nah!"
I don't wanna be early on that wagon, it's town.
But maybe I could push people who did proactively push this wagon...

Expand  

I really don't feel like this is coming from the mindset of believing that via is town, and it tonally feels like they are treating them as town.

10 hours ago, Shinori said:

10 hours ago, Percivalé said:

with how you've followed up your responses to me this feels like you're confirmation biasing. you latched on really hard and fast based on that one post but I'm wondering what you think about the other stuff I've posted? I know it's not a lot but I'm trying

I don't particularly think I'm going on super hard, I only posted a couple of sentences. Fast being it was split across three different posts in a manner that I was having new information pop into my head as I posted I could kind of understand.

I don't really like that you're pushing it off as me conf-biasing because of an interaction that so far went:
You post
Me question
You respond - not answering my question
Me respond
You respond - saying you will answer my question
Me respond

There isn't a whole lot there and my read on you has really just begun so kind of sliding it under the bed as conf bias is questionable at best.

The overall emotion in the posts read to me as town but I really dislike this train of thought and positioning.  I'll most likely move my vote elsewhere shortly.

Expand  

@Shinori What kind of reaction were you expecting to these interactions? When did you start to see via as town?

While reading this convo I noticed another habit of yours where you argue "would they really do that as X" to WIFOM your own decision. Why don't you decide to believe one of the options and propose that instead? What are you gaining by talking about both worlds?

Hopefully that is properly spoilered because It's supposed to be.  If it's not spoilered then I'm sorry and rip.

I'm not assuming weapons is town, but if weapons does flip town then this interaction with via has more meaning.  Idk how I can assume weapons is town when I've been actively voting them and had them listed as a scum read most of the game.

I already argued what my reasoning for the via vote was for and I think you should re-read my first post towards them if this was how you took it.
Perci stated with a specific wording that they did not CURRENTLY want to lynch weapons but implied that they did want to PREVIOUSLY.
Perci also stated that even though they currently did NOT want to lynch weapons implied they felt kind of fine with keeping them around(Maybe like a town lean)
Perci also stated that he was totally fine with Weapons being lynched though solely so they could investigate the wagon.
Perci stated specifically they thought scum would be on the earlier parts of the wagon.

This looks like a scum starting to vote someone they don't think would gain traction, then backing off as it does because they know it would flip town, and then lining up suspicion ahead of time on people already on that wagon earlier.

In a vacuum, this looks bad.  I've moved on from this mostly but it's possibly something I will revisit, and hopefully this is the last time I do any sort of explanation on myself and via's exchange.

[Bluedoom]

11 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

Sort of back, but I'll be less active today because I have some things I need to work on IRL. I'll still be checking the thread every once in a while, so feel free to ask me things.

I just feel very meh overall about Marth's slot. I don't really get a town lean from him but I'm not feeling scum the same way I do for other players. The SB-to-Refa vote is ... well, if I understand it correctly it's because he misattributed something Refa said to SB. But is SB still a scum read in anyway or no?

My biggest issue is his tunneling on me. It's just gives me the feeling of someone who's made up their minds and instead of actively trying to reevaluate their reads is just coming up with reasons as to why this thing I did is still scummy. That said, I actually don't really see it as scummy but it reads like a Marth thing. If I recall correctly, kirsche also played like this often. I do find it annoying even if not scummy though, so it's hard for me to form an objective read here. I wouldn't vote him personally and he's not my top D1 lynch choice, but I also wouldn't be upset if people consolidated on him.

 

 

 

I'm not tunneling on you though? My response to BT is because he questioned me on why I wasn't voting you; I explicitly stated that I was focusing on other players because I wasn't interested in having tunnel vision on you; I left the thread at page 13 and came to that response on page 22, and between those two pages I've seen what, 4 posts with your thoughts on the game? One of them even admits that it feels like you have the same reads because the same people keep talking at each other(and a point to you tbh, that's a townie thing to say) Most of them are about Makaze or explaining your read on makaze(I'm looking at the stretch from page 13-17), at best I'm changing it to a null but why would I flip it to a town read? You weren't even around for most of the time I was on(I don't blame you for this, we have different timezones) so its not like I'm also having interactions with you where I fell like I need to change my mind. In any case that entire response and sequence of posts was me arguing why Weapons changing his scumread on you to a townread looked off anyway, he's not even using the Refa's reasoning of "why would she vote Makaze as scum", he's using the reasoning of you seemingly behaving the way you did ED1 as a metric which is vague and doesn't really tell me anything about what changed in your play to change his mind. You do realise that I wouldn't have even brought you up otherwise right?

I will admit that I haven't read much into your makaze case(and that's more because at that point in time I also thought prims' lead into makaze's behaviour was good and thought talking about his meta with him or charlie would be better at figuring makaze out) but that just means that I've been devoting my time and energy elsewhere and not tunneling on you.

[Bluedoom]

SF ate up part of my response but wrt SB: I didn't feel like SB's scumreads of  Rapier and Elieson made sense when they had me/prims/snike/weapons/(j00 but I thought they had you as their other townread) as town especially because Elie is the most easy scumread to have here definitely weird to have  that as your strongest lead after rapier. That said I'm...comfortable? with the way they articulated their makaze read but unsure how I feel about their rapier read. Like. its there. As I said the rapier cases are logically sound but I dunno. I've been feeling very dicey about makaze/rapier/weapons here and don't feel so good about where this is heading but gun to head I vote makaze here

[Sunwoo]

18 minutes ago, Bluedoom said:

I'm not tunneling on you though? My response to BT is because he questioned me on why I wasn't voting you; I explicitly stated that I was focusing on other players because I wasn't interested in having tunnel vision on you; I left the thread at page 13 and came to that response on page 22, and between those two pages I've seen what, 4 posts with your thoughts on the game? One of them even admits that it feels like you have the same reads because the same people keep talking at each other(and a point to you tbh, that's a townie thing to say) Most of them are about Makaze or explaining your read on makaze(I'm looking at the stretch from page 13-17), at best I'm changing it to a null but why would I flip it to a town read? You weren't even around for most of the time I was on(I don't blame you for this, we have different timezones) so its not like I'm also having interactions with you where I fell like I need to change my mind. In any case that entire response and sequence of posts was me arguing why Weapons changing his scumread on you to a townread looked off anyway, he's not even using the Refa's reasoning of "why would she vote Makaze as scum", he's using the reasoning of you seemingly behaving the way you did ED1 as a metric which is vague and doesn't really tell me anything about what changed in your play to change his mind. You do realise that I wouldn't have even brought you up otherwise right?

I have literally said in this thread that I never expected your read on me to become a town read

Stop putting words in my mouth

Also, the reason I called you out was because the way you phrased things in these posts looked like you were leaving yourself open to jump back on a hypothetical future wagon on me while not actively committing to it anymore because the early votes on me stopped going anywhere, which felt off to me.

[Shinori]

I still think boron/Bluedoom is very v/v

Votals are really weird. I'm still on page 16 so I'm not caught up (I went to play a video game for a bit)

But if votals as of a few hours ago posted by Iris are to be accurate.

Refa - 4
Rapier - 3
Weapons - 3

Two of my scum reads are here and I'm definitely closer to town reading Refa and the way his wagon is building up is pinging me.  His wagon consist of BT, J00, bluedoom, makaze.
Rapier is currently being voted by SB who is one of my scum reads which kind of makes this awkward as I don't think these two would be buddies together with SB bussing rapier.
I haven't fully read BT/J00's cases on refa so I will need to do that, if some of this stuff is what happened between pages 26 and now then I just haven't got to it yet.

The reason this is pinging me is because I feel like this means I'm 100% wrong on one of SB, rapier, and weapons.  I HIGHLY doubt that all 3 of those are scum, rapier is voting weapons, sb is voting rapier, and weapons is completely off the leading wagons(last i remember they had actually voted refa but now they are on prims).  Initially I thought Refa might be a counter wagon to a scum wagon, but at the very least it's not currently being fueled by either of the people who are currently up to bat(rapier and weapons).

I do think there is one scum amongst refa rapier and weapons at the moment, at least.  I just wanted to state some of my updated thoughts upon glancing at the votals posted by iris.

I'm gonna go back to reading the game probably.

[Sunwoo]

I'm going to sleep now. I work tomorrow so I won't be around for some time, but I will be back before deadline by a comfortable margin.

I reread Rapier's posts (which might be a mistake doing it now because I'm tired), and ... realtalk, in general I have a hard time reading Rapier. I never really did learn to read Rapier because he subbed out often, and if he didn't he stopped posting for long periods of time, and if he didn't his logic was always a bit on the questionable side regardless of alignment and forgets things a lot.

Fuckit, there's nothing in his posts that I really have an issue with, even if I don't always agree with his presented logic. I can kind of see why he would think what he does (I would like to add that I'm reading through his post history/ISO, so I'm not quite seeing the rest of the posts around his).

Honestly, I'm not interested in Rapier today. I guess he's not as strong of a townread as certain other players, but he's still leaning town for me right now.

[Makaze]

48 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

I'm going to sleep now. I work tomorrow so I won't be around for some time, but I will be back before deadline by a comfortable margin.

I reread Rapier's posts (which might be a mistake doing it now because I'm tired), and ... realtalk, in general I have a hard time reading Rapier. I never really did learn to read Rapier because he subbed out often, and if he didn't he stopped posting for long periods of time, and if he didn't his logic was always a bit on the questionable side regardless of alignment and forgets things a lot.

Fuckit, there's nothing in his posts that I really have an issue with, even if I don't always agree with his presented logic. I can kind of see why he would think what he does (I would like to add that I'm reading through his post history/ISO, so I'm not quite seeing the rest of the posts around his).

Honestly, I'm not interested in Rapier today. I guess he's not as strong of a townread as certain other players, but he's still leaning town for me right now.

how would a vig and my town flip affect how you see the game

[Makaze]

1 hour ago, Bluedoom said:

SF ate up part of my response but wrt SB: I didn't feel like SB's scumreads of  Rapier and Elieson made sense when they had me/prims/snike/weapons/(j00 but I thought they had you as their other townread) as town especially because Elie is the most easy scumread to have here definitely weird to have  that as your strongest lead after rapier. That said I'm...comfortable? with the way they articulated their makaze read but unsure how I feel about their rapier read. Like. its there. As I said the rapier cases are logically sound but I dunno. I've been feeling very dicey about makaze/rapier/weapons here and don't feel so good about where this is heading but gun to head I vote makaze here

same question for you I just asked to boron

[Shinori]

A vig and a town flip affecting someone's view on the game largely depends on WHO it was that flipped Makaze.

For example: If someone I am town reading flipped town due to a lynch then I'm likely to investigate who pushed for that.  If someone I was scum reading flipped town, I'm likely to re-evaluate their posts and try to see who may have hard poor reasonings or helped push that up

Just a blanket statement of "How would things change if a random person flipped town or got vig shot?" is not gonna get an answer I think you want because it's largely dependent on other variables.

[Bluedoom]

12 minutes ago, Makaze said:

same question for you I just asked to boron

well unfortunately most people who talk about you say they'd like to consolidate on you but haven't voted you so I'm unsure if picking people from the wagon would help

I was going to answer this and realised that it'd probably be worse because that's kinda prepping mafia up for something if I'm right about certain reads. Are you fine w/ me listing people I'd look into without stating the reason or no?

 

[Bluedoom]

fwiw I think Prims has handled his read on you the best regardless of your alignment and that's the one thing I'm confident on atm

[Shinori]

I'll state I don't really wanna lynch makaze.

[Percivalé]

god i'm so mad i fell asleep AGAIN but i'm so determined to not sub out of this game it's unreal

I'll provide my own posts im referring to for people to look at, here's my first content post and here's the first time I make that remark about weapons

Quote

if weapons is town he's a very easy early vote for scum, so put a pin on this for when we have flips later

here's the second time I attempted to make content but my cat was screaming and distracting me so I went to bed with her and fell asleep again

@Sunwoo I mention shinori in that post and also in this post

[Shinori]

10 hours ago, Rapier said:

Ok, but why aren't you asking him directly instead of commenting on the thread that Shinori is Muskposting and leaving it at that? You could pressure him on those facts he's been commenting and not coming to any conclusions, but instead you just threw it to the air and that's ok? You pursued BBM for far less until you found reasons to back up your feelings.

This kind of feels weird to me from rapier > Makaze.  Earlier on Rapier kind of just said some things about me that painted me in a negative light while not reading interactions or seemingly reading posts from me.  I don't quite know where their read on me has progressed to but this feels weird because it's like Rapier is attacking makaze for their thoughts on me because makaze isn't pressuring me.  It partially seems like rapier is defending me, but at the same time partially agreeing with the thought process against me so not defending me, and I don't vibe with it.  This could be conf-bias speaking though.

[Makaze]

1 hour ago, Bluedoom said:

well unfortunately most people who talk about you say they'd like to consolidate on you but haven't voted you so I'm unsure if picking people from the wagon would help

I was going to answer this and realised that it'd probably be worse because that's kinda prepping mafia up for something if I'm right about certain reads. Are you fine w/ me listing people I'd look into without stating the reason or no?

 

I am more interested in seeing if I believe your thought process is town minded and if you are thinking in terms of possibilities or... just about how you will move because you already know the only possibility

[Makaze]

On 5/27/2024 at 6:26 AM, Prims said:

FWIW there is literally a reply from me in my role PM saying "I can't say this in thread but if Makaze isn't scum he's probably a PR unfortunately". I will say that if this turns out to be a lynchproof/gov type situation I will be insanely suspicious though because in the context of him opening the game with SK spec that would scream to me informed non-town with a powerful defensive role to make up for low numbers.

I am removing Prims from the PoE

[Makaze]

12 minutes ago, Shinori said:

This kind of feels weird to me from rapier > Makaze.  Earlier on Rapier kind of just said some things about me that painted me in a negative light while not reading interactions or seemingly reading posts from me.  I don't quite know where their read on me has progressed to but this feels weird because it's like Rapier is attacking makaze for their thoughts on me because makaze isn't pressuring me.  It partially seems like rapier is defending me, but at the same time partially agreeing with the thought process against me so not defending me, and I don't vibe with it.  This could be conf-bias speaking though.

there are twelve waffles in these 5 sentences??

[Shinori]

Whatchu mean 12 waffles?

It looks like rapier is attacking makaze for sussing me but not pushing me(aka potentially egging on makaze to pressure me directly)
At the same time rapier sussed me early on, then seemed to have backed off of that sus, and if they are defending me by attacking you, it reads that they would be closer to town leaning me but this doesn't actually make too much sense because part of their wording seems to imply the logic against me is something they believe.
Thus I don't get or know where rapiers progression on me has ended up at and I do not know their read on me.
It feels like they are both defending me, and sussing me, while attacking someone else WHO IS ACTIVELY sus of me but not directly engaging me.

[Makaze]

I'm not seeing anything other intellectual arguing from Shinori. Itt seems like the more that they looking for what they should believe based on the evidence instead of figuring out what world he's seeing

[Shinori]

Makaze hit me up if you got things to ask by the way. You mentioned earlier that you asked me questions and I responded in basically weird ways or whatever but I don't remember most of these interactions, and supposedly I'm in your PoE.  I also don't wanna constantly have this back and forth with you because last time this happened it ended up a terrible situation.

I believe I have my read on you and at the moment I'm leaving it as is and I want to help you solve me better so that we can move past this and all work together as a big family.

[Shinori]

Just now, Makaze said:

I'm not seeing anything other intellectual arguing from Shinori. Itt seems like the more that they looking for what they should believe based on the evidence instead of figuring out what world he's seeing

You are gonna have to retype this sentence for me because I do not understand what you said.