(Mafia Sucks) SF Mafia: The Revival - GAME OVER, Town Wins! - Post Game is up!

[Makaze]

2 minutes ago, BBM said:

I'll be honest this distinction doesn't make a lot of sense to me, I use scummy and scum sort of interchangeably in the sense that if I say someone is scummy I think they're scum.

Actually @Shinori one thing that Percy reminded me, you'd made some post like you weren't feeling the wagons. At the time I thought maybe some of your reads had changed but if your three main scumreads are still sb/weapons/rapier, then two of those are wagons? Maybe rapier wasn't quite there at the time but weapons definitely was

It's the "could be" that seems like a perspective scumslip, and it fits with how they've been arguing, just put it more succinctly in that one instance

"X could fit the archetype" vs "X feels like mafia"

[Shinori]

1 minute ago, BBM said:

I'll be honest this distinction doesn't make a lot of sense to me, I use scummy and scum sort of interchangeably in the sense that if I say someone is scummy I think they're scum.

Actually @Shinori one thing that Percy reminded me, you'd made some post like you weren't feeling the wagons. At the time I thought maybe some of your reads had changed but if your three main scumreads are still sb/weapons/rapier, then two of those are wagons? Maybe rapier wasn't quite there at the time but weapons definitely was

If this was a thing based on my wording of scummy vs scum, I use them interchangeably.  If I say someone is scummy, I'm reading them as scum.  Is that actually what this was supposed to be about?

In response to you BBM: I believe at the time I posted that, the wagons were like Boron, marth, and refa building up.  I have to go back and check, but I remember all 3 of those people being wagon'd at some point in time throught out the day, and I think at one point in time, multiple at once, I believe that was the time I said I didn't like the wagons.

[Shinori]

5 hours ago, Shinori said:

WRT bold I commented on the fact that the emotion felt town but the reaction could be Scum!Via cracking, and which that was I wasn't sure. 

This is the only part I said could be along side:

Quote

This could be conf-bias speaking though.

I never once said "Rapier could be scummy" or "Rapier could be scum"

I deliberately said "I think Rapier is scummy or I think Rapier is scum.

[Bluedoom]

2 minutes ago, Makaze said:

I was actually asking because I wanted to know who would lead the town when I'm gone, but I do like where this is going.

It feels like you are setting up possible arguments against these people. Do you see what I'm saying? This is exactly the moves-instead-of-reads that I see as scum leaning

What kind of a dumb question is this? You asked me how you flipping town would influence me and so I answered,no shit I would have arguments because...I have new information????

Why would I think about town leadership when SF doesn't even play like that?

[Shinori]

Considering "Could be" means "Able to be or become, possible"

When I stated it 'could be' scum!Via cracking or when I stated it 'could be' conf bias affecting the fact that I have locked onto a rapier scum read.

That basically just says "I think that it could maybe have been possible it was scum!Via cracking" and "I think maybe It could be possible that I have conf-biased myself into a scum read"

But the fact that my scum read hasn't changed is still there.  I still think rapier is scum and I haven't changed from that PoV for a bit.

[Makaze]

30 minutes ago, Shinori said:

38 minutes ago, Makaze said:

Which possibilitt do you believe is rhe reality and how would you test if it isnthe case?

The possibility is that I think Rapier is still scummy and their wording and thought process leaves them open to follow multiple different paths which is not something I favor.

Quote

you seem to have started reading with an agenda and upon finding things that could be used to justify other lines of reasoning, you have mentioned other things that you could be justifying, but I'm not getting the feeling that you are actually finding out what you believe more than you are finding out what you can justify reasonably

What do you mean by I am reading with an agenda?  Your current wording is making it hard for me to understand what you're saying.

If you are saying that I'm scum and that I 'decided' I would view certain people as scum and that I'm just looking for reasonings to fit the bill and trying to hammer those home, then why would I do this in a reactionary manner?

My view and thoughts towards Rapier, SB, and Via, all came after seeing their posts and replying to them after they made them, two of which were focused more towards me and one was not.  If I was scum aiming to push an agenda that I made, wouldn't I just actively be aiming to push my agenda first instead of having to wait to be adressed or wait for someone to post?

 

4 hours ago, Shinori said:

I still think boron/Bluedoom is very v/v

Votals are really weird. I'm still on page 16 so I'm not caught up (I went to play a video game for a bit)

But if votals as of a few hours ago posted by Iris are to be accurate.

Refa - 4
Rapier - 3
Weapons - 3

Two of my scum reads are here and I'm definitely closer to town reading Refa and the way his wagon is building up is pinging me.  His wagon consist of BT, J00, bluedoom, makaze.
Rapier is currently being voted by SB who is one of my scum reads which kind of makes this awkward as I don't think these two would be buddies together with SB bussing rapier.
I haven't fully read BT/J00's cases on refa so I will need to do that, if some of this stuff is what happened between pages 26 and now then I just haven't got to it yet.

The reason this is pinging me is because I feel like this means I'm 100% wrong on one of SB, rapier, and weapons.  I HIGHLY doubt that all 3 of those are scum, rapier is voting weapons, sb is voting rapier, and weapons is completely off the leading wagons(last i remember they had actually voted refa but now they are on prims).  Initially I thought Refa might be a counter wagon to a scum wagon, but at the very least it's not currently being fueled by either of the people who are currently up to bat(rapier and weapons).

I do think there is one scum amongst refa rapier and weapons at the moment, at least.  I just wanted to state some of my updated thoughts upon glancing at the votals posted by iris.

I'm gonna go back to reading the game probably.

This is where I got the "could be"

I did magically think you said those words exactly but I still feel like this is a thing

[Shinori]

1 minute ago, Makaze said:

 

This is where I got the "could be"

I did magically think you said those words exactly but I still feel like this is a thing

Wait so you mean to be saying that you think that:

"I think this person is scummy"

IS BAD?

You mean to say that:
ME VIEWING THE FACT THAT I HAVE A SCUM READ ON TWO OF THE THREE TOP WAGONS AND ME STATING THAT I BELIEVE ONE OF THE THREE WAGONS IS SCUM AT LEAST

IS BAD?

I'm sorry then what should I be saying oh master Makaze? Oh please enlighten me towards how I should play and react because we all have seen how oh so great it's been for you this game where no one understands you for over half the game.

Pull your head out of your ass please and read what you are saying.

You are saying that me stating "I think X is scummy" is a fucking bad statement.

Okay then should I take your PoE in the same manner?  Should I take your scum reads in a similiar manner?  Because nothing is KNOWN. ZERO information has been given or gained that can DRASTICALLY affect stuff and NOTHING is solid at the moment.  You give me the vibe of someone who got all this work, they made their fucking concrete drive way all fresh and nice, and then noticed the fucking drive way wasn't your fucking house.

ANYTHING at this point in time of the game should be accompanied with a "Think" or "possibly" outside of your own fucking role PM. Because none of it can be sure and none of it can be concrete.

[j00]

Haven't been following the thread today because of work and stuff, but I'll be back and catch up around 5 hours before end of phase. I won't be there at deadline tho since it's around 2 AM my timezone.

[Shinori]

I wish to re-iterate this because I feel I need to.

I do not want to lynch Makaze at the moment, and I am NOT scum reading them, but I feel I HAVE to involve myself in this backwards logic so that Makaze can come to some sort of solving in their own head to progress the game from their view point.

[Makaze]

1 minute ago, Shinori said:

Wait so you mean to be saying that you think that:

"I think this person is scummy"

IS BAD?

You mean to say that:
ME VIEWING THE FACT THAT I HAVE A SCUM READ ON TWO OF THE THREE TOP WAGONS AND ME STATING THAT I BELIEVE ONE OF THE THREE WAGONS IS SCUM AT LEAST

IS BAD?

I'm sorry then what should I be saying oh master Makaze? Oh please enlighten me towards how I should play and react because we all have seen how oh so great it's been for you this game where no one understands you for over half the game.

Pull your head out of your ass please and read what you are saying.

You are saying that me stating "I think X is scummy" is a fucking bad statement.

Okay then should I take your PoE in the same manner?  Should I take your scum reads in a similiar manner?  Because nothing is KNOWN. ZERO information has been given or gained that can DRASTICALLY affect stuff and NOTHING is solid at the moment.  You give me the vibe of someone who got all this work, they made their fucking concrete drive way all fresh and nice, and then noticed the fucking drive way wasn't your fucking house.

ANYTHING at this point in time of the game should be accompanied with a "Think" or "possibly" outside of your own fucking role PM. Because none of it can be sure and none of it can be concrete.

This reaction feels like caught for the wrong reasons.

[Bluedoom]

Makaze it occurs to me that you think that SF is going to play like how MU games play because you've spectated MU games for 5 years.

But SF doesn't fuckin' play like MU because SF meta is completely different from MU meta, people don't think about "town leadership" consciously nor do they think about forming a town core(and as a response to an earlier post of me not forming town core, I'd play like that in a meta environment where that's what people are used to, I tried doing this in smogon once and there was way too much backlash for an environment where people should have been more used to it). Most of your reads and ideas of the game are applying a different paradigm to what goes on in SF and I'm baffled by this.

[Shinori]

Okay. I'm going to officially stop trying to help makaze, they probably have their read on me and now I can move along to not caring about their always has been warped thought process.

[Makaze]

 

3 minutes ago, Bluedoom said:

What kind of a dumb question is this? You asked me how you flipping town would influence me and so I answered,no shit I would have arguments because...I have new information????

Why would I think about town leadership when SF doesn't even play like that?

They read like moves you could make instead of worlds.

I'll try again: If I am out of the game, not taking up the thread, what is the best town strategy to win the game?

[Rapier]

11 hours ago, WeaponsofMassConstruction said:

Oh I'm not a top wagon anymore, alright back to being lazy

##Vote: @Prims

I think this speaks for itself and how it solidifies my read that Weapons' vote was just opportunistic after all.

11 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

I ... um.

Sigh.

I know I just posted about voting and shit, but the switch to Refa kinda rubs me the wrong way, since he just put Refa at deadline lynch when we still have almost a day left in the game.

Also, it's just so damn weird that despite replying to BBM defending his stance on votes, he immediately switches over after my post. Like how he tabled going after BBM after I told him he looked like he was tunneling.

I feel like I'm tunneling now, but I just don't feel better about Makaze. His behavior doesn't really make sense for either town or scum, but considering that people are kinda letting him get away with it I could still see this as coming from scum.

I agree. His Refa vote seemingly came out of nowhere (I know he has been saying "Refa seems scum" but not really elaborating further) and the convenience for it seems pretty clear. 6 players voting for Refa at the same helps consolidate his lynch and save his bacon from the 3 other votes he had at the time.

Still not sure we should risk having another D2 without flips and new reads. imo we vote on someone who's more plausible to getting lynched, to be scum and to reveal new reads, then get back to Makaze on D2. Or vig him, if there's one.

11 hours ago, Prims said:

idk I'm not posting content right now

what kind of reason for voting someone is this

11 hours ago, Refa said:

My Rapier townread was based on his early D1 content and gradually faded over time. His reads in general have felt lacking to me and while I can respect not having the energy to reread me/the thread, it kind of bothers that he didn't get any impressions from what he did read. If it was just me he had no opinion on it'd be fair but it feels like half of the game is wagoning me and he should have an opinion there.

I think I have the information I need.

##Vote @Rapier

You're right that I should've had the energy and disposition to read the players wagoning on you and take a stance, but I honestly don't see how any of your reasons have to do with me being potentially scum. Instead, you seem to be (rightfully) complaining about my play instead, and I don't see how this alone justifies a lynch? If we had more hours and there was still time to vote someone for the sake of pressing them, I'd agree with the vote, but this seems like you want to consolidate a lynch based on lack of information, not scummy actions or intent.

[Makaze]

3 minutes ago, Bluedoom said:

Makaze it occurs to me that you think that SF is going to play like how MU games play because you've spectated MU games for 5 years.

But SF doesn't fuckin' play like MU because SF meta is completely different from MU meta, people don't think about "town leadership" consciously nor do they think about forming a town core(and as a response to an earlier post of me not forming town core, I'd play like that in a meta environment where that's what people are used to, I tried doing this in smogon once and there was way too much backlash for an environment where people should have been more used to it). Most of your reads and ideas of the game are applying a different paradigm to what goes on in SF and I'm baffled by this.

It doesn't matter if I am wrong as long as I can figure out how what someone is doing does make sense for them to solve the game, and you're going to have to explain the SF solving meta if I'm not able to see it.

[Iris]

 Iris™ Votals: Day 1.6 (~11.75 hours left)

Refa (4): BT., j00, Bluedoom, Makaze
Rapier (4): charlie, BBM, Refa, Shinori
WeaponsofMassConstruction (3): Rapier, CT075, Prims
Makaze (2): Elieson, Sunwoo
Bluedoom (1): Snike
Prims (1): WeaponsofMassConstruction
Not Voting (1): Percivale

The player with the most votes at the end of the Day phase will be Eliminated! With 16 alive, it takes 6 votes minimum to Eliminate a player and 10 votes to Hammer the phase early! Day 1 ends at 8:00 PM EDT on May 28th.

 

VOTING HISTORY - Day 1

Page 2:
Rapier votes for Prims
Snike votes for Rapier
Sunwoo votes for Snike
Shinori votes for Elieson
Prims votes for Snike
Refa votes for Makaze
Prims votes for Shinori

Page 3:
BBM votes for Makaze
Makaze votes for BBM

Page 4:
WeaponsofMassConstruction votes for Prims
Shinori votes for WeaponsofMassConstruction
Rapier votes for Makaze
Sunwoo votes for WeaponsofMassConstruction

Page 5:
Shinori votes for Elieson
Bluedoom votes for Refa
Rapier votes for BBM

Page 6:
WeaponsofMassConstruction votes for Sunwoo
Rapier votes for Bluedoom

Page 7:
Refa votes for Sunwoo
Bluedoom votes for Sunwoo
Sunwoo votes for Refa

Page 8:
BBM votes for Prims

Page 9:
Makaze votes for Bluedoom
Shinori votes for Prims

Page 10:
Snike votes for Bluedoom
charlie votes for Shinori
Prims votes for Snike
BBM votes for Snike
Shinori votes for WeaponsofMassConstruction

Page 11:
Percivale votes for Bluedoom
j00 votes for Refa

Page 12:
Elieson votes for Makaze

Page 13:

Sunwoo votes for Makaze
Bluedoom unvotes

Page 14:
charlie votes for Rapier

Page 15:
BT. votes for Refa
j00 votes for WeaponsofMassConstruction

Page 16:
WeaponsofMassConstruction votes Rapier
Prims votes Makaze

Page 17:
BBM votes WeaponsofMassConstruction

Page 18:
Bluedoom votes charlie
Refa votes Makaze

Page 19:
WeaponsofMassConstruction votes Elieson
Prims votes for Refa

Page 20:
j00 votes for Refa
Percivale unvotes

Page 21:
Bluedoom votes for Refa

Page 22:
Rapier votes for WeaponsofMassConstruction
Shinori votes for Percivale
CT075 votes for WeaponsofMassConstruction

Page 23:
Refa unvotes

Page 24:
Makaze votes for Refa
WeaponsofMassConstruction votes for Prims
Prims votes for WeaponsofMassConstruction

Page 25:
Refa votes for Rapier
 

Edited May 28 by Iris

[BT.]

2 minutes ago, Rapier said:

I think this speaks for itself and how it solidifies my read that Weapons' vote was just opportunistic after all.

11 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

That's not opportunistic, it's survival-istic? That's not a word, but you get me. What's wrong with consolidating on the opposing wagon and then re-voting someone else when there's less danger? This seems like a throwaway line that you added "and that's why it solidifies my read" to.

[Shinori]

2 minutes ago, Makaze said:

 

They read like moves you could make instead of worlds.

I'll try again: If I am out of the game, not taking up the thread, what is the best town strategy to win the game?

To find mafia DUH.

Just now, Makaze said:

It doesn't matter if I am wrong as long as I can figure out how what someone is doing does make sense for them to solve the game, and you're going to have to explain the SF solving meta if I'm not able to see it.

I'm sorry I think you lost credibility to almost anything you said when you stated someone saying "I think X is scum" is bad.

I do wanna state something here because I think this matters to an extent.  Last time we played. 4 years ago(According to makaze they haven't played really and have just spectated games) was on MU.  WE played a game there where I NAILED Makaze as scum on the head along side paperblade, during that game, no one really agreed with me and makaze's gameplay was different enough from this current game.  I'm ACTIVELY trying to not use Meta in this game, because it's mostly outdated, people drastically change over a 4-6 year time span.  However Makaze's thought process and thread position and how they HOLD themself in thread, has always been similiar to how they are playing in this game with a few distinct differences.  And this game is largely much more similar to how they acted in town games.  But ASIDE FROM THAT.

Their thought process and viewpoint largely seems to read to me as "Spectator chat finally got in bois" and is just overly hype to fuckin play the game.  The way they talk and they way they seem to be wording their thoughts and process heavily seems like how Spec chat talks in the MU discord, which largely is why as they stated, their play and reasonings maybe hard to understand and follow.

It's the equivalent of trying to reason with TWITCH CHAT.

[BT.]

Fellas can you please take a break, it's obfuscating the thread at this point and making it even more intimidating for catch-up andies.

[Makaze]

2 minutes ago, Rapier said:

I agree. His Refa vote seemingly came out of nowhere (I know he has been saying "Refa seems scum" but not really elaborating further) and the convenience for it seems pretty clear. 6 players voting for Refa at the same helps consolidate his lynch and save his bacon from the 3 other votes he had at the time.

Still not sure we should risk having another D2 without flips and new reads. imo we vote on someone who's more plausible to getting lynched, to be scum and to reveal new reads, then get back to Makaze on D2. Or vig him, if there's one.

Take a moment to read my ISO and how I have been treating Refa, and it should be obvious (If only it worked that way)

Refa has been a top scumread from the beginning of the game and he has making safe plays that have not pushed him out of the PoE, on top of scum reading almost everyone that I have as out of my PoE. There is nothing Refa is doing that is vibing with me, and he has a tendency to say things are "fine" and bulldoze entire lines of reasoning, all to push his cases on someone in my top town if not me directly later in the game.

Putting him at the minimum to lim was a happy accident. I thought that the highest votes would be eliminated period, and the minimum to lim means that none of these votes matter until the end of the phase, and I don't get why people are mad that votes suddenly mean something

[BT.]

My headspace right now, btw, is that I'm fine with any of Refa/Charlie/Rapier being voted (in that order) but don't think they're all scum together. I'd happily take 2/3 though. I know I said I'd rather wait for Rapier tomorrow but I've had enough issues with their posts now and think the wagon is valid.

[Makaze]

@Shinori I maintain that what you said was not that someone is scum, but that it is "possible they are still scummy" (exact quote this time)

I am going to let that case speak for itself instead of harping on it, but I stand by my claim, and I think this means something

1 minute ago, BT. said:

Fellas can you please take a break, it's obfuscating the thread at this point and making it even more intimidating for catch-up andies.

Wish granted

[Shinori]

Just now, BT. said:

Fellas can you please take a break, it's obfuscating the thread at this point and making it even more intimidating for catch-up andies.

I have actively been like not posting that much for the past like 36 hours, also interacting in real time is a lot better for me to read people.  People can easily just skip over me and Makaze if they so choose to.  I already stopped posting intentionally and disliked it, I'm not going to just do it again.  I will ATTEMPT to stop talking and responding towards Makaze in a manner that clutters the thread but some things should be said because it matters to game state and people's want for knowledge and reads.

Out of curiosity, how do you read me and makaze at the moment? Both individually before we have had our back and forth and POST that, does it affect your reads on either of us? Does it feel like one of us is scum by any chance? And if so, who? And why?  And if not, if you seem to be trying to stop the argument because you feel it's T/T then that's something that should be stated because if you think two town are in-fightning and it clutters the thread, that's good knowledge and let's people in on your reads there.

I'm not going to actively just stop posting so that people who haven't been reading the game in the past 72 hours won't be intimidated. 

[Shinori]

2 minutes ago, Makaze said:

@Shinori I maintain that what you said was not that someone is scum, but that it is "possible they are still scummy" (exact quote this time)

Ctrl + f that exact quote IN QUOTATIONS

"possible they are still scummy"

No results in the past like 5 pages except you.

[BT.]

Yeah, I respect trying to play that and that's why I let it happen until I couldn't even respond to Rapier immediately so I thought OK that's a lot, most people aren't used to this style of posting and will see 32 pages and etc. etc. you know what I'm getting at. Respectfully I've been rereading other people while you two were at it because I'm townleaning on you both and trying to focus my effort in the right places. So yeah I think that answers your question.