OMG it's a tier list

[dondon151]

Discipline is for beorc only.

Players seem to have problems with Volug because they don't like to use him. The biggest obstacle that gets in the way of Volug getting strike is the mentality that DB characters deserve to be fed EXP. As long as you cut his chains (and give him a support), he'll turn out amazing.

[RNG Princess]

My problem is characters that gain no exp I have no patience for them and yet I use Meg and Fiona.

[Narga_Rocks]

My problem is characters that gain no exp I have no patience for them and yet I use Meg and Fiona.

Then stop thinking of it in terms of just exp. Volug gains wexp, which is all he needs. Remove halfshift when you get to part 3 and keep him transformed. He's the most durable unit on the team and he's the guy with the most mt (assuming S strike). How does he even need xp in part 1? All he needs is 70 attacks, and since he doubles most things (nearly everything until 1-8) that's generally around 40 combats or so, which is about 7 combats per map. Not really a huge problem. Best part for those that don't like "wasting" exp is that on HM he doesn't actually even KO all that much. 25 mt stops KOing pretty quickly. Of course, if you are like Interceptor and promote the idea of giving Volug the energy drop he'll have 28 mt and probably kill more, but it's not as if there are very many units in the DB that are actually worth the effort.

[nflchamp]

What skill are we giving Volug that we need to take wildheart off of him? I know half-shifting is going to be useless the majority of the time, but if there's nothing else...

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

VolugxZihark, amazing stuff right there.

People need to get out of the growth-player mindset to realize how amazing Volug is along with learning how to balance out kills between him and the rest of the DB. In my current HM semi-efficient PT I'm currently at 1-E base and Volug is about 3 strikes away from ranking up to S with Nolan and Jill decently leveled, hell I'm even trying to use Edward this run and even he's level 12 atm and I'm doing pretty decent on turncounts(Although 1-9 RAPED my total turncount as doing that chapter with a level 11 Micaiah on HM even with Resolve is like wanting to point a gun to your head). Getting him to SS by part 4 is very probable.

[RNG Princess]

what happens if he doesnt have SS by part 4 is he still useful? I dont use laguz for extended periods of time. I'm in part 1 endgame and idk volugs rank but if i start using him and he still doesnt have SS by part 4 is he still worth keeping?

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

what happens if he doesnt have SS by part 4 is he still useful? I dont use laguz for extended periods of time. I'm in part 1 endgame and idk volugs rank but if i start using him and he still doesnt have SS by part 4 is he still worth keeping?

He's still okay as long as he's S-rank. A-Rank and he's gimp.

[dondon151]

What skill are we giving Volug that we need to take wildheart off of him? I know half-shifting is going to be useless the majority of the time, but if there's nothing else...

Savior (free Earth support), Resolve are good choices. Volug might have amazing defensive parameters, but he's very much killable in 3-6, so Savior and Resolve buffer his avo.

[Narga_Rocks]

Savior (free Earth support), Resolve are good choices. Volug might have amazing defensive parameters, but he's very much killable in 3-6, so Savior and Resolve buffer his avo.

I wasn't really thinking about giving him anything else, to be honest. Just focusing on the idea that halfshifting is a good way to get him killed in 3-6 HM and figured "remove halfshift" was the best way to get the point across.

But yeah, if you kept either of those skills they work for him. You could give him both resolve and saviour, actually. In fact, you could give him Resolve and Wrath/Adept, I just wouldn't recommend it. Ditto Resolve + Beastfoe. Volug gets 35 capacity and only uses 5 with shove so he has 30 remaining. Efficient play makes it nearly impossible to get him to an A support with Zihark/Nolan so Volug will always be killable (and thus we don't necessarily want to turn him into a killing machine). He's just the least killable of all the units you have in 3-6 (unless you do what Int did and channel nearly all the kills into Jill and Nolan). Well, Aran can perhaps become more durable than Volug (though a robe would come highly recommended), there's just little point in having him get a ton of kills considering of the 4 mentioned he's easily the worst in part 4 if they are all trained.

[dondon151]

If you give Volug Savior with a B Earth and Resolve, he has 121 avo at base against the most accurate cats and tigers who have 142 and 141 avo, respectively. Go on a thicket and he'll be facing 10 hit assuming both parties are at neutral bio.

Also, Volug with an Energy Drop and S strike cleanly ORKOs all cats and 3HKOs all tigers (which means he can kill on player phase without a chance for counter).

[Ether]

It's too bad to see you going,Red Fox.Your reign was a good time,and I wish you the best.Feel free to come back.

Well,I suppose several subjective matchups may come out differently now,so may as well bring them up.

Ike vs. Haar vs. Reyson(We all know this one already,XD)

Mia vs. Sothe

Okay,well for Mia vs. Sothe,we have another one of those GM vs. DB matchups,so I can;t really pull stats or anything to directly compare the two,since this is a pretty subjective match up.

I'll try to break it up into easy comparisons,aka,when they are at their worst,and at their best,etc,and try to show how they match up.

Worst:

Sothe - Part 4 - In part 4,Sothe definitely slows down. He doesn;t double the Paladin bombs in 4-P until level 14/15,and he's probably not there yet,and with low Str and knives,he's not worth much offensively here,since these guys average 44Hp/20 Def,so he's only managing to 3HKO these guys with a Silver Dagger and an Att support,so he'd better hope Micaiah didn't move on up,else he's 4HKOing.As for the other side of the map...generals.And with the weakest pulling 43Hp/25Def, Sothe is 4/5HKOing with Silver,and half of these generals have 22 AS,like the Paladin swarms.Anyone who can pull 36 < Mt is outdoing him here,and that's not difficult,and if they double,no contest.

In 4-3,he promotes,let's say he got to 17/1.

He has 24 Str/29 AS. With a Silver Dagger he has 36/38 mt. This is 2 rounding weak halbs,and 4/5 rounding stronger ones.The only things Sothe manages to double here is low level halbs,low level snipers,Dracoknights,sages,and generals.He 3HKO's sages,and 5/6HKOing Draco's,so 3 rounds.His saving grace here is having +1 move to regular foot units,and the ability to pick up some treasure,although other than Dragonfoe/Baselard,it's just more cash,and we're nearing the end of the game,unless you need a second Laguz gem.

Enemies get even tougher in 4-E,and he can;t even use Baselard to counter for the latter half,and with only one chest in 4-E...yeah.Atleast he doesn;t take a slot.

Mia's worst period is 3-P and 3-1,but here,she is one of 3 people who can consistently double(and Ike is iffy,so it's more like 2,while Shinon is PP only)

While she has low Mt,Adept/Crit and doubling give her better offense than most of the team,aside from Generals,as she has 28% adept and 26/46 Crit.Durability wise,she isn't doing as bad as you might think,due to her Avo,even though it hasn't matured yet.She has 99 avo in a thicket,and thickets are everywhere in 3-P,which nets her around 15% true on average,which isn't too bad.

In 3-1,her offense remains the same,and she is likely going along the northern path to take advantage of the thickets,which keeps her durability intact.

As for their best periods,Sothe has 1-2,1-3,and 1-4, while Mia has 4-1,4-4,and 4-E(3-E as well if she manages to promote by then)

Sothe is notable before Z/Volug join because he is easily the most durable unit on the team,and has the best offense.

Mia is notable in part 4 because she is an unstoppable war goddess,to but it simply. An average enemy has ~150 hit in 4-4,and a 20/7 Mia has 134 Avo with A Ike. This is a measly 5.95% true hit,while getting 3-4HKO'd,she basically doesn;t know the meaniing of the word Death.

As for Offense,if she Procs Str (28.55),she can get Halbs/Warriors with a Silver Blade,if not,she needs to pull out a Silver Forge/Vague Katti/Tempest Blade to get a clean kill.However,with the VK,she ORKO's everything but the Generals anyway,and we just got the thing,so it has most,if not all of it's uses intact. +3 Def doesn't hurt either.All in all,being = to goddamn Nailah against all but lower level generals(Nailah can;t get the high levels without a proc either) means that Mia is pretty WTF here.

Now for the rest. Sothe has 1-5,1-6,1-7,1-8,and 1-E,where,while still being good,he is outclassed by a good amount of people,such as Volug,Nailah,Muarim,Tauroneo,potentially Zihark/Tormod.

In part 3,Sothe is simply average.he has troubles doubling and his offensive power is mediocre unless he's wielding Beastkiller,which kills his durability.It doesn't take much to be > Sothe in part 3,as even scrubs like Edward,if raised,manage to pull the same amount of durability,and superior offense due to stronger weapons.

Mia has 3-2 to 3-5, 3-7,3-8,3-10,and 3-11.

During this time,she pulls offense above the rest of the team due to doubling and procs.Speedwing!Titania and Crown!Gatrie outdo her for a little while,but only by the % chance she doesn't kill,which isn;t all that high,until she starts ORKOing on her own.Her durability is steadily getting better and better,and by the time her support matures,she generally doesn't need to fear exposure.being able to run off with Ike and leave a swath of dead/injured enemies in her wake is very good,considering most GM's would like to pick off weakened enemies,so even when she doesn't proc,she's being productive.

Well,that's my Shpheal.Like I said,DB vs. GM is subjective,and while i believe she contributes more overall,you may disagree.Enjoy.

[-Cynthia-]

Unfortunately, Mia really has no answer to Sothe's 1-2 through 1-4 performance. If we compare Sothe to the next lowest DB member (Zihark), Sothe is absolutely crushing Zihark in those chapters (1-5 also weighs heavily in Sothe's favor). Being by far the best unit available >>> not existing.

Mia doesn't have any situations like this. She has some leads here and there over Titania and Gatrie, but overall it's minor (and some have argued Titania>Mia, though I doubt that will ever happen while Narga runs the list. Yes, Mia's good in Part 4...but we have a lot of good units in Part 4, all our trained GM units/laguz royals etc., she's not even our best unit (best unit overall in Part 4 would have to be Tibarn). Sothe, on the other hand is competing with a whole bunch of characters who are KOd in less rounds than they take to kill enemies, get doubled sometimes, etc etc, the team situation is very different.

Basically Mia would have to significantly better than Gatrie and Titania to overtake Sothe, and I don't think that's really the case.

On that note, what about the Volug moving a tier down idea from earlier? Sothe has 1-2 through 1-4, they are approximately equal the rest of Part 1 (Sothe is better in 4-E). Volug is better for Part 3 and 4-P, then they probably tie 4-3 since Sothe finds items. Sothe is worse statistically than VOlug for 4-E, but he doesn't take a slot while Volug does (and is pretty bad here), so yeah.

Edited May 24, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Ether]

Sothe's early part 1 is the only reason why this is even a contest.

In 1-2,he is the best unit.Nolan might give him a bit of a hard time due to being there for the whole thing,and the map isn't huge,but he is likely the best here.

In 1-3 and 1-4,he is our best unit.

And then,we get swarmed by units who outdo him.Tauro is better for 1-6-1 and 1-6-2,Zihark has more Mt and AS,and Wind Edges > Iron Knives,and his durability is similar,so he's likely better when he is around.Jill needs a little investment,but she flies,and if she can get to doubling,she beats him offensively due to axes and other goodies.Volug is a lot more durable,with more Atk and good enough AS for most of part 1.Tormod has similar durability with constant 1-2 range,Muarim,Nailah,and BK are lolwut.

Then,part 3.Sothe is average at best,likely worse,as he pulls similar durability to a raised Edward.Anyone with Earth or a chance at getting 3HKO's by tigers is instantly better than him,he won't double cats,and does terrible damage without beastslayer,which he doesn't want to be stuck with on EP.

Part 4 is even worse for him,as I have shown,as he is now a low durability unit that can't kill anything...how useful is that.

Mia may not have anything quite like his 1-2 to 1-4,but she is consistently one of your best units,and never needs to deal with this

"Oh I suck now" bullshit.While she is not the best unit in part 4 overall,she is close,and is likely the best unit in Ike's group,atleast,beating Nailah due to 1-2 range,and Ike due to somewhat shaky doubling prospects.

[Rewjeo]

How can this be "subjective?" This is an efficiency tier list, so it's basically whoever saves us the most turns.

Sothe may be bad in part 4, he's forced, so he literally can't be negative. So even if he saves 0 turns in part 4, we can still just look at his part 1 and 3.

Also, I think this might be a record for the longest time someone's been in charge of a tier list. 18 months. I'd say that I'm gonna miss you, RFoF, but it's not like you're really leaving or anything, so....

Edited May 24, 2010 by Slize

[Ether]

This isn't a max efficiency tier list,so it isn't just "Finish in exact minimum turns,nothing else matters"

The reason it is subjective is because GM vs. DB has a lot of interpretation of worth to it.

As for his part 4,he may not be outright negative,but he has so little positive it's negligible,so he may as well not exist.When you look at how amazing Mia is in part 4,it's a massive advantage.

[nflchamp]

Sothe is (still) ridiculously overrated. He only carries the (garbage) team for a few chapters, remains good for a few more, and has (rather minor) thieving utility. It's high tier material, but I'd really only give him better than Nailah.

[-Cynthia-]

Zihark has more Mt and AS,and Wind Edges > Iron Knives,and his durability is similar,so he's likely better when he is around.

The AS lead is largely irrelevant, since Sothe doubles most of the enemies in Part 1 (1-E is shaky, but pretty much everyone other than Nialah and the BK have a large drop here).

Iron Knives> Wind Edges. Why? They can be forged. This gives Sothe crit, more Mt, and more Hit. Since Zihark has less Str than Sothe, Sothe is generating much better offense, and at 1-2 range no less. Zihark can't ORKO anyhting but mages/priests with the Wind Edge, so he's going to have to take counters and be able to counter less.

Jill needs a little investment,but she flies,and if she can get to doubling,she beats him offensively due to axes and other goodies.

She still won't beat him offensively. First off, getting Jill to double reliably just isn't going to happen in Part 1. We can't BEXP her much, we can't put Paragon on her, and we can't waste time feeding her too many kills because her durability is shaky and her offense isn't that great.

A forged Iron Axe has 6 more Mt than a forged knife, but /2 Sothe has 8 more Str than Jill, plus a possible +2 from Micaiah. Not to mention that Sothe is going to be able to avoid counters and counter more enemies.

Volug is a lot more durable,with more Atk and good enough AS for most of part 1.

Volug takes a lot more damage from fire mages, can't counter, and has to take counters while attacking. Their concrete durability is pretty similar (Sothe has 5 more Res, Volug has ~14 more HP and Sothe's Avo is better).

Volug has 25 Atk at base, Sothe has 26 with a forged Iron knife. With Micaiah around, Sothe wins Atk by even more, plus has more Crit. I guess Volug has more Atk if Sothe is wielding a Bronze Knife supportless, but with efficient resource distribution, Sothe is better in many ways.

Tormod has similar durability with constant 1-2 range,Muarim,Nailah,and BK are lolwut.

Sothe isn't the best unit in the DB from 1-6 to 1-E certainly, but Mia isn't the best unit on her team either. Sothe is clearly well above average.

Then,part 3.Sothe is average at best,likely worse,as he pulls similar durability to a raised Edward.Anyone with Earth or a chance at getting 3HKO's by tigers is instantly better than him,he won't double cats,and does terrible damage without beastslayer,which he doesn't want to be stuck with on EP.

Earth doesn't help much when you're facing laguz, sometimes with authority stars, and the list of units 3HKOd is rather small. Beastkiller can be traded away.

Part 4 is even worse for him,as I have shown,as he is now a low durability unit that can't kill anything...how useful is that.

Yes, Sothe isn't good in Part 4. It doesn't really matter though, since we have enough good units that having a better unit (Mia) as opposed to a worse unit (Sothe) really doesn't affect much. Sothe is stil pretty useful in 4-3 (for item finding). for the 4-E maps, would fielding Mia over a somewhat inferior unit (like Stefan) have much of an effect? Probbly not, fielding Mia here instead of Stefan might save us one turn tops.

Mia may not have anything quite like his 1-2 to 1-4,but she is consistently one of your best units,and never needs to deal with this

"Oh I suck now" bullshit.While she is not the best unit in part 4 overall,she is close,and is likely the best unit in Ike's group,atleast,beating Nailah due to 1-2 range,and Ike due to somewhat shaky doubling prospects.

Debatable, since Ike and Nailah have enough Mt to reliably ORKO (Mia with 1-2 range weapons has issues with this). Yes,Mia's better than Sothe in Part 4, but Part 4 victories are minimized due to competition.

@nflchamp Being nearly essential for a few chapters then good the rest of Part 1 is pretty good IMO. Mia/Titania/Gatrie are solid, but easily replacable, especially since the resources they used will make their replacements better.

Edited May 24, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[RNG Princess]

Does data transfered Jill count? She has been doubling everything.

BTW why is Volug higher than Sothe? Sothe steals skills and stuff and he's not replaceable (until 4-E4/5) shouldnt that count against volug.

[-Cynthia-]

I assumed Ether was talking about non-transfer Jill. Transfer Jill is much better.

Volug has a better Part 3 and 4 and they're roughly equal for 1-5 through 1-E. I could see Sothe about Volug (due to 1-2 to 1-4), or vice versa, but different tiers seems wrong.

[Ether]

The only thing Nailah has an advantage against is low level generals,and Ike is much in the same boat,except he can have Spd issues.Mia has Tempest Blades for 1-2 range,so her Mt isn't an issue.

As for Forged Iron Knives,1 costs twice as much as Zihark's Wind Edges,so he only pulls a win when he has a forged one,which is likely not all of the time.

Fire Mages do cause a bit of an issue for Volug,but they aren't horribly common,and his HP lead makes him clearly more durable.

As for Earth in part 3,while Sothe is 2HKO's like most of the team,anyone with Earth has a chance to dodge a hit from a Tiger,making them superior to him durably,and his offense is still mediocre.As for Trading the Beastslayer,isn't that terribly inefficient? I would rather have someone be sealed and chip,or whatever,than be Sothe's trade buddy.

[-Cynthia-]

The only thing Nailah has an advantage against is low level generals,and Ike is much in the same boat,except he can have Spd issues.Mia has Tempest Blades for 1-2 range,so her Mt isn't an issue.

She can *maybe* have one (any other SMs we're training want this weapon as well, so significant opportunity cost). It only has 20 uses, so it's either going to break or she'll switch to the Storm Sword (these may also be broken/in use by others). Another one appears midway through 4-4

As for Forged Iron Knives,1 costs twice as much as Zihark's Wind Edges,so he only pulls a win when he has a forged one,which is likely not all of the time.

Sothe can use weaker 1 range weapons when he doesn't need the forge I suppose. Money isn't considered a big deal for the DB, considering we're shipping over gema to the GMs.

Fire Mages do cause a bit of an issue for Volug,but they aren't horribly common,and his HP lead makes him clearly more durable.

7 in 1-5, 4 in 1-6(2), 5 in 1-7 etc. Not the most common enemies necessarily, but not insignificant.

As for Earth in part 3,while Sothe is 2HKO's like most of the team,anyone with Earth has a chance to dodge a hit from a Tiger,making them superior to him durably,and his offense is still mediocre.As for Trading the Beastslayer,isn't that terribly inefficient? I would rather have someone be sealed and chip,or whatever,than be Sothe's trade buddy.

We have enough unit slots (12, which I think covers everyone) that we can field some loser like Fiona to do it. Yes, obviously having more Avo and RKOd at the same rates is better, but it's not Zihark's pulling reliable enough Avo to expose himself to more enemies.

[Ether]

She can *maybe* have one (any other SMs we're training want this weapon as well, so significant opportunity cost). It only has 20 uses, so it's either going to break or she'll switch to the Storm Sword (these may also be broken/in use by others). Another one appears midway through 4-4

Stefan doesn't have the chance to use one before 4-E,Lucia is likely not fielded past part 2,and Zihark is as high as he is for earlygame,while he can do alright in part 4,his strength is lagging,and he isn't that good when the Tempest Blade is around.While they may be fielded,they aren't terribly strong competition for it.

Sothe can use weaker 1 range weapons when he doesn't need the forge I suppose. Money isn't considered a big deal for the DB, considering we're shipping over gem to the GMs.

I just wonder about how many forges Sothe can use while still having the ability to keep the GM's healthy for funds.

We have enough unit slots (12, which I think covers everyone) that we can field some loser like Fiona to do it. Yes, obviously having more Avo and RKOd at the same rates is better, but it's not Zihark's pulling reliable enough Avo to expose himself to more enemies.

Having someone specifically to trade with Sothe seems like a mix of troubles,either way.They needs to be right next to or directly behind Sothe in order to trade with him,and they are likely to be hit,and die without countering or dealing significant damage.And as long as Sothe is traded out,he has no real purpose to his Enemy Phase,since he deals stupidly low damage.Maybe I'm missing something,but trading out weapons that close to the frontline seems like a horrible idea,especially since if they are strong enough to survive or be worth fielding,they should be doing something else anyway.

[Interceptor]

Unfortunately, Mia really has no answer to Sothe's 1-2 through 1-4 performance.

Her answer to Sothe's 1-2 to 1-4 is her generally solid performance all throughout her career. There is not a single chapter where Mia is not giving you dividends on training. Even doing something as ostensibly benign as favored access to kills in 3-P will enable her to cleanly kill things immediately afterwards in 3-1, where offense is so tight that even Rhys can be decisive.

It's an impossible standard to demand parity between cross-army performances. When people say things like what I just quoted from you, my gut reaction is to ignore everything that they said thereafter, and then demand that they explain Eddie's position in Lower Mid. Full stop. Do not pass Go, do not collect two hundred dollars.

If performance in forced earlygane chapters where you have no control over deployment is of paramount importance, surely the eleventy billion turns that Eddie saves you is worth whatever redundant bullshit that some douchebag like Ulki gives you. Without Eddie, Micaiah is up shit's creek without a paddle, having to chain-heal herself with items, and needing the Dracoshield if she wants the accomplish the amazing feat of "taking two hits from the weakest enemy on the map without dying". She needs that plus 2 HP procs just to not get OHKO'ed by the boss. And it doesn't get much better in 1-1, where a straightforward romp to the Arrive tile turns into Hamburger-fucking-Hill, since you now lack the ability to block a two-wide choke, your offense got nerfed, and now Nolan has to beast the chapter almost entirely by himself. Even 1-2 would goddamn hilarious, as Nolan is still your only tanky-enough unit until Sothe decides to show up; a day late, a dollar short, and on the other side of the map. Your Turn 1 strategy would involve hilarious shit like blocking the bottom of the ledge with warm bodies so that the guy at the top doesn't come down and OHKO either Laura or Micaiah.

I don't think that anyone actually thinks that Eddie should be going into High tier for this stuff, so [No, thanks] at any argument that suggests Sothe is DB Jesus for something that's altogether similar. Sothe fails in the clutch, also known as Part 3, which is a strictly player's-choice-deployment set of chapters that separates the men from the boys.

and some have argued Titania>Mia, though I doubt that will ever happen while Narga runs the list.

I think that Titania > Mia is at least arguable. It's just a sticky wicket since when you drill down their individual performances, you notice that they have very little overlap in duties, which is unexpected for a direct combat comparison. This has nothing at all to do with Sothe. Mia and Titania are both pillars of the army, you excise them at your own peril. Replace Titania with Oscar, or Mia with Nephenee, for example, and see what kind of damage that you will do to your performance and resource distribution as a result.

[_____]

Mia with Nephenee, for example, and see what kind of damage that you will do to your performance and resource distribution as a result.

Just chiming in here to say that I really don't think this would be anywhere near as bad as replacing Titania with Oscar. In fact, I think the difference between Nephenee and Mia, given that Nephenee gets a Forge, Vantage (not like Mia's using it anymore), and whatever the hell else we give Mia, is almost negligible.

[Interceptor]

Just chiming in here to say that I really don't think this would be anywhere near as bad as replacing Titania with Oscar. In fact, I think the difference between Nephenee and Mia, given that Nephenee gets a Forge, Vantage (not like Mia's using it anymore), and whatever the hell else we give Mia, is almost negligible.

I make analogies with the unit comparisons that I have, not the ones that I want. You're right that the difference between Neph and Mia is a good deal smaller than that of Oscar and Titania, even with resources. But Nephenee is the only unit that's even on the same planet as Mia as far as specific contributions to the army, aka someone who doubles reliably with decent listed crit.

It doesn't really change my essential point, although I guess someone could argue that it makes Mia somewhat easier to replace.