OMG it's a tier list

[RNG Princess]

I was about to say Heather > Marcia and Mist because she's finding/stealing items and being around someone with disarm but I forgot disarm isn't reliable.

Also what about Kyza?

Edited June 6, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Shadow Mir]

I was about to say Heather > Marcia and Mist because she's finding/stealing items and being around someone with disarm but I forgot disarm isn't reliable.

Also what about Kyza?

Not replying to the Kyza stuff, but can we really give Heather brownie points when most of what there is to find is coins? I think not. And as for stealing, don't most enemies use steel blades/greatlances/poleaxes (AKA, stuff she can't steal)?

EDIT: Gah! Forgot about the White Gem and Ashera Icon in 3-3 and the 3-5 Energy Drop.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[RNG Princess]

Not replying to the Kyza stuff, but can we really give Heather brownie points when most of what there is to find is coins? I think not. And as for stealing, don't most enemies use steel blades/greatlances/poleaxes (AKA, stuff she can't steal)?

and that too I always chase around the enemies with physic staves but thats playing very inefficiently because I wait as many turns as possible for disarm to activate.

Ettard is the best item she can find

Edited June 6, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Shadow Mir]

and that too I always chase around the enemies with physic staves but thats playing very inefficiently because I wait as many turns as possible for disarm to activate.

Ettard is the best item she can find

Bold: Hence why I said she isn't earning brownie points when most hidden items are coins.

As for the rest: Just how common are Physic staves anyway?

[RNG Princess]

Bold: Hence why I said she isn't earning brownie points when most hidden items are coins.

As for the rest: Just how common are Physic staves anyway?

I know I stole a few I just don't remember how many, but they're not very common. :(

Before I used to like getting many of them in case I brought a noob like Oliver to endgame and Micaiah would use them as well.

Fortify + Hammerne is very good though, too bad I never thought of that before.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[grandjackal]

Since the question was asked about physic staffs, I just went through 3-7 and there are two healers that hold a physic, so theres at least 2 on that map.

Not sure about others though.

[Shadow Mir]

Since the question was asked about physic staffs, I just went through 3-7 and there are two healers that hold a physic, so theres at least 2 on that map.

Not sure about others though.

I know that 3-10 and 3-11 also have bishops with physic staves, but unlike the 3-7 bishops, they have tomes as well. At any rate, they aren't very common in part 3, it seems.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[Peachy]

I say Meg and Astrid considered for low and Fiona, Lyre, and Oliver for bottom

I agree with Queen Elincia on Meg and Astrid. But Oliver outclasses Pelleas in chip damage, healing, and maybe durability (Nosferatu). So, IMO, if Oliver goes to bottom, Pelleas should join him.

Maybe make Fiona bottom of bottom and have Lyre join Septimus, Hetzel and Lekain in Phail tier.

[Anouleth]

There's one in 3-10 and one in 3-11 according to the enemy stats, as well as more in Part 4, two buyable in DB Part 3, and one that Rhys starts with.

Heather can get us the following items:

2-2

Secret Book (steal)

Discipline

2-E

Dracoshield (steal)

Arms Scroll

3-2

Reaper Card (steal)

Statue Frag (steal)

Storm Sword (pain to get, steal)

3-3

250 BEXP from not killing the Senators (That gives base level Ilyana a whole quarter of a level!)

3-4

Ettard

3-5

Energy Drop (steal)

3-7

Master Crown (steal)

Silver weapons (steal)

Tier 2 ranged weapons (steal)

We need to buy the weapons and put them on a DB guy first, obviously.

3-11

Rescue (steal)

3-E

Rescue

4-1

Arms Scroll

Satori Sign

4-4

Statue Frag

Fortify

Blue Gem

Red Gem

Arbalest

Blizzard

Maelstrom

Not including Coins and Vulneraries because they may as well grow on trees.

I agree with Queen Elincia on Meg and Astrid. But Oliver outclasses Pelleas in chip damage, healing, and maybe durability (Nosferatu). So, IMO, if Oliver goes to bottom, Pelleas should join him.

Maybe make Fiona bottom of bottom and have Lyre join Septimus, Hetzel and Lekain in Phail tier.

Pelleas exists in 4-2 and 4-5. He can at least chip in 4-2 and use Fenrir in 4-5 to kill stuff. I highly doubt Oliver can be used to chip anything in 4-4, since he's at the very end of the level and we need to expose Rafiel to get him.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Anouleth

[Shadow Mir]

There are three in 3-7, two in 3-10, and two in 3-11 according to the enemy stats, as well as more in Part 4, two buyable in DB Part 3, and one that Rhys starts with.

In other words, enough to last forever and a week.

Heather can get us the following items:

2-2

Secret Book (steal)

Discipline

2-E

Dracoshield (steal)

Arms Scroll

3-2

Reaper Card (steal)

Statue Frag (steal)

Storm Sword (pain to get, steal)

3-3

250 BEXP from not killing the Senators (That gives base level Ilyana a whole quarter of a level!)

3-4

Ettard

Storm Sword (steal)

3-5

Energy Drop (steal)

3-7

Master Crown (steal)

Physic (steal)

Silver weapons (steal)

Tier 2 ranged weapons (steal)

We need to buy the weapons and put them on a DB guy first, obviously.

3-11

Rescue (steal)

3-E

Rescue

4-1

Arms Scroll

Satori Sign

4-4

Statue Frag

Fortify

Blue Gem

Red Gem

Arbalest

Blizzard

Maelstrom

Not including Coins and Vulneraries because they may as well grow on trees.

Actually... The Rescue staff in 3-11 is locked, and even if it could, it'd likely be broken before you could get to the guy with it. Also, the Storm Sword in 3-4 is locked to the boss, which means no stealing. As for the Physic staves in 3-7, those are equipped, and unless you're using Flourish, you're likely eliminating the bishops with them in one round, so I wouldn't count them. Rhys doesn't start with a Physic. And last I checked, there's only one physic in 3-10. While 3-11 does have two physic staves, one of the bishops with them has nothing else.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[Anouleth]

Oh, ok. I'll remove them then.

[Fenrir]

I think I've mentioned this before, but I'm not quite sure, so I'll say it anyway.

I'm very wary of having Jill leapfrog half of Upper Mid just because of one playthrough, no offense to Int intended. I had the same qualms with other games as well.

i'm not saying this becuase of int. int opened my eyes a bit to just how dominant she can be, but she really reduces turns. i think she should move up higher in upper mid and zihark should be taken down to upper mid.

I was about to say Heather > Marcia and Mist because she's finding/stealing items and being around someone with disarm but I forgot disarm isn't reliable.

Also what about Kyza?

even if disarm was reliable, marcia has triangle attacks heather has some nice stealing spots but that doesnt reduce turns and this is an efficiency tier list. but you could say, an energy drop makes someone kill something (with increased atk) so it reduces turns.

[Soren37]

So looking over the tier list, Nolan is below Janaff, Ulki, and Transfer STR!Ulki. Nolan is very useful in any mode you get him in. You get him in 1-1, and is a god send as he can actually take a hit without dying.

Base Nolan Level 9 Steel Axe

HP-29 Atk-23 AS-7 Hit-104 Avo-21 DEF-9 RES-3 Crit-6 Ddg-7

5x Fighter lvl 5 (Bronze Axe)

HP 25, Atk 17, AS 9, Hit 107, Avo 24, DEF 6, RES 1, Crit 0, Ddg 6

1x Soldier lvl 5 (Iron Lance, west)

HP 22, Atk 17, AS 9, Hit 109, Avo 24, DEF 8, RES 3, Crit 4, Ddg 6

1x Isaiya lvl 7 (Myrmidon boss, droppable Steel Sword)

HP 25, Atk 16, AS 10, Hit 119, Avo 26, DEF 6, RES 3, Crit 12, Ddg 6

1x Fighter lvl 6 (Hand Axe, Arrive square)

HP 26, Atk 21, AS 10, Hit 92, Avo 26, DEF 7, RES 1, Crit 4, Ddg 6

He's not doubling, or being doubled, but look at that Atk. He's doing no less than 15 damage, with a max damage of 17 against the listed enemies. He's taking 8 damage from the generics, 12 damage from Hand-axe guy, and a whopping 7 damage from Isaiya. His hit doesn't drop below 90.1 true hit, and the enemies will have 82.89-99.9 (Isaiya) Hit on him. He can't crit, but his tanking abilities are nice for early game. If you also killed the javelin guy, then you have access to hand axes, which allow Nolan to guard a doorway with a two-range weapon that can counter people without harming his offense too much and granting an AS bonus.

When you get him back in Part 3, and we'll assume 20/2, he'll have the following.

HP-38.2 STR-18.4 MAG-4.4 SKL-20.4 SPD-18.2 LCK-14.2 DEF-14.2 RES-9.8

With Tarvos

HP-38.2 Atk-36(108 with Beastfoe) AS-18 Hit-140 Avo-50 DEF-14+4(18) RES-9(10) Crit-15 Ddg-14

Cat lvl 14

HP 41, Atk 22, AS 20, Hit 136, Avo 46, DEF 12, RES 10, Crit 10, Ddg 6

Cat lvl 17

HP 43, Atk 31, AS 22, Hit 142, Avo 52, DEF 16, RES 10, Crit 11, Ddg 8

Tiger lvl 14

HP 48, Atk 32, AS 16, Hit 132, Avo 38, DEF 18, RES 4, Crit 9, Ddg 6

Tiger lvl 17

HP 51-52, Atk 41, AS 18, Hit 141, Avo 43, DEF 20, RES 6, Crit 11, Ddg 7

He's only doubled by the higher leveled cats, but if we slapped Beastfoe on him, he has a whopping 108 Atk, and with an average hit of 99.34, he's rarely missing, and dealing 96, 94, 92 and 90 damage, respectively. In other words, ORKO. He also has a 9, 8, and 7 percent chance of a critical, meaning a ORKO where body parts explode. If you stick Paragon on him, he's going to go up by about 5 levels or more. And then you can swap it out in 3-13 to help Jill level.

By Endgame, he's better than Boyd, due to a better offense, and having a better durability. While in the early level it may seem that Boyd wins out due to a higher STR, but Nolan can cap MAG, SKL, SPD, LCK and RES by level 13, and BEXP abuse can cap his STR, DEF, and his HP will be one point off. Boyd can cap HP, STR, and DEF, but all of his other stats aren't that great, and he can't double in Endgame.

Now, compare that to Ulki, Janaff, and Transfer!Ulki. Janaff and Ulki are Hawks, who are hard and fast hitters, and have fairly decent durability due to their high HP. Their mastery skill is also amazing to due to it tripling their STR and halving the enemies speed for a turn, making it twice as easier to hit. However, it takes them 3 turns to get to that form (23+8), and then they lose it 10 turns of pure combat or 8 turns of flying around doing nothing. Also, bows and wind magic play an issue, as both have worrisome defense, which makes you panicky every time you see a cross bow, and Wind magic'll tear through Janaff. Ulki does have the better avoid, so he might not be as panicky, but it still makes you worried as the RNG is likely to screw you over once or twice and he'll be hit. Also, Janaff and Ulki provide no durability support in the chapters they join, as you have the GM to help you out, and they can destroy everything on their own, if anything, they can shove, or take opportunity attacks against stragglers that get too close to your healer or Reyson. You also get Tibarn for Endgame, who can fly around in Hawk form all the time, has Tear, and has better durability and offense than his aids.

So...arguments?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Those are Nolan's good times, but his performance is questionable almost immediately after 1-1 until 1-E. Nolan vs hawks is a very subjective debate, as they play entirely different roles, but I think the hawks not having a bad period gives them the edge over Nolan.

[Soren37]

Those are Nolan's good times, but his performance is questionable almost immediately after 1-1 until 1-E. Nolan vs hawks is a very subjective debate, as they play entirely different roles, but I think the hawks not having a bad period gives them the edge over Nolan.

Yes he does have an excellent start, yet he's still a very handy character for the rest of Part 1. Yet with the hawks, when you hit the bridge chapter, 3-E, and Part 4 (if you keep them in Elincia's group), they have to deal with Ballistas, archers, and crossbows, which seriously hampers their performance, making it difficult to level them, while Nolan plows right through with a +4 DEF bonus from Tarvos. The hawks are also overshadowed in Part 4 by Tibarn, who is everything they are plus. He can take a crossbow hit (at least 1), and can kill harder, better, faster, and stronger than the hawks.

[grandjackal]

Yet with the hawks, when you hit the bridge chapter, 3-E, and Part 4 (if you keep them in Elincia's group), they have to deal with Ballistas, archers, and crossbows, which seriously hampers their performance, making it difficult to level them, while Nolan plows right through with a +4 DEF bonus from Tarvos.

Today's underestimation.

Ulki's got 117 avoid just at base, +15 from Ike's 3 stars. Just to give you an idea of how good that is...

1x Warrior lvl 12 (*Crossbow)

HP 42, Atk 28, AS 21, Hit 158, Avo 58, DEF 17, RES 10, Crit 10, Ddg 16

He reduces this guy to 26 displayed. An example in the next chapter he exists. Normal bows and magic might as well not even exist as a problem to him. Hell, you might as well swipe at air if you're chosing to attack him.

Furthermore...

Transformed Ulki: 59 HP, 28 Str, 34 Skl, 36 Spd, 25 Lck, 22 Def, 20 Res

36 might, 179 Acc, 97 avoid, 17 crit

What does this guy give a damn about being trained? He's already insane. These are tier 3 stats when most of the team is a good amount of levels from actually being tier 3. Could even give him an Energy Drop, suddenly he's flying with nearly Ike's might with a max forge (42 to Ulki's 40). Or, you could BEXP him a level then toss him a Satori Sign, we then got Tear. Can stack this with things like Adept.

He's also great at something most of your team has trouble with, ORKOing swordmasters. Not only is his avoid sky high, not only does he ORKO them, but even if they DO manage to him him, being crit'd is the last thing he has to worry about since he's gt 45 crit evade thanks to Vigilance.

Did I mention he flies and has 9 move?

Seriously, stop me if it's not becoming obvious enough just how much ass can be kicked with Ulki.

Janaff is basically similar, just with an energy drop he can ORKO all but generals on a regular basis, so he doesn't need aid from Adept or Tear.

True that Nolan is somewhat clutch before Sothe shows up, but there's a bigger gap between him, Sothe, Zihark and the LEA then let's say Ulki/Janaff with Titania, Haar and Ike.

The hawks are also overshadowed in Part 4 by Tibarn, who is everything they are plus. He can take a crossbow hit (at least 1), and can kill harder, better, faster, and stronger than the hawks.

Tibarn cannot be everywhere at once. While he takes care of business in one area of the map, Janaff and The Ulks can be in the south taking care of reinforcements (the first portion of Tibarn's route). He also can't be in other routes, like the desert, where Ulki and Janaff's flight and hax combat parameters would be greatly appreciated.

[Fenrir]

so if the hawks are such H4X why is zihark ahead of them? and nolan better than zihark. that sounds right on to me. for reasons soren37 stated nolan is good;however, the hawks just own everything, does zihark do this? no because of reasons stated by other tauroneo/LEA/nailah/volug/sothe overshadow him, do the hawks get overshadowed in P3 and 4, not by anyone, even ike in part 3 and part 4 they make the desert stage easier, tons easier. and the best part is you never have to worry about them getting RNG screwed because their base stats just rape everyone.

to me they're like laguz kings they just need laguz stones/grass. which is a drawback but they still rock.

[Florete]

The hawks are also overshadowed in Part 4 by Tibarn, who is everything they are plus. He can take a crossbow hit (at least 1), and can kill harder, better, faster, and stronger than the hawks.

Guess who else is "overshadowed" by Tibarn? Nolan. Only real advantage Nolan has is 2 range, but I'll take Tibarn's 3 move and flight (and everything else, naturally) over that any day. Remember, this isn't a battle of classes, so Tibarn isn't really relevant here.

[grandjackal]

so if the hawks are such H4X why is zihark ahead of them? and nolan better than zihark. that sounds right on to me.

This is not a notion that Nolan is rightfully placed, but rather Zihark is being vastly overrated here. Zihark could drop, it doesn't change the fact that Nolan vs the Hawks is in debate.

To be honest, I would still lean towards Nolan, despite having just argued a bit for the hawks. This is because the hawks were being understated in their comparison. I'll get to why in the next segment, I just wanted a fair comparison.

for reasons soren37 stated nolan is good;however, the hawks just own everything, does zihark do this? no because of reasons stated by other tauroneo/LEA/nailah/volug/sothe overshadow him, do the hawks get overshadowed in P3 and 4, not by anyone, even ike in part 3 and part 4 they make the desert stage easier, tons easier. and the best part is you never have to worry about them getting RNG screwed because their base stats just rape everyone.

The hawks DO get overshadowed. Ulki can't ORKO without resources, something Ike doesn't have to deal with, and when Haar is given resources we get a guy who can attack at range and doesn't have to deal with transformation. Nolan however has several periods where he's flat out the best guy on your team (before Sothe shows up and even still, he's second best, where even the hawks are debateable as third and fourth, Once more in Part 3 where his asskicking power is simply without parallel to the point where I would even say it should never be questioned.). Great as the hawks are, Nolan can be something they'll never be: Being clutch.

to me they're like laguz kings they just need laguz stones/grass. which is a drawback but they still rock.

The hawks are nowhere near Royal levels of power, even with the time they join in part 3. They show up, and while great, still have flaws that keep them from being the best, titles that go to Haar and Ike. Unlike Nolan who starts the #1 guy then is in hte top two, and though later a bunch of units show up that could outclass him, all he has to do is wait till part 3 where he once again returns to #1 position.

[dondon151]

The hawks are nowhere near Royal levels of power, even with the time they join in part 3.

Janaff is 1 str and a strike level away from base level Naesala. That's pretty damn close.

[grandjackal]

Janaff is 1 str and a strike level away from base level Naesala. That's pretty damn close.

I have noticed that with a mere Energy Drop, Janaff can reign some terroy on anything btu generals (even then, I think the only thing seperating him is Adept). Maybe it's just Ulki, who is noticeably weaker. While Ulki has more avoid, I just feel Janaff is far easier to set up, where Ulki would need a crapload of BEXP for the satori sign, then Adept on top of that, and having to rely on activations where Janaff is garunteed to kill something outside of generals.

Maybe Janaff is the exception. Janaff seems to be a lot cheaper to get something more effective when compared to Ulki.

[Anouleth]

Any comparison between GMs and DB members is doomed to failure. How can you really compare Nolan and the Hawks when they're never together?

Nolan vs Zihark is a much more feasible comparison to make.

I have noticed that with a mere Energy Drop, Janaff can reign some terroy on anything btu generals (even then, I think the only thing seperating him is Adept). Maybe it's just Ulki, who is noticeably weaker. While Ulki has more avoid, I just feel Janaff is far easier to set up, where Ulki would need a crapload of BEXP for the satori sign, then Adept on top of that, and having to rely on activations where Janaff is garunteed to kill something outside of generals.

Maybe Janaff is the exception. Janaff seems to be a lot cheaper to get something more effective when compared to Ulki.

But once he has Adept/Tear, his activation rate is through the roof. 59% Adept and Tear? 62 or 64% if he procs Speed on his levels up? That's verging on a 87% proc rate.

[Interceptor]

The hawks may be pushing it. They are good, but they have a limited impact on their world due to availability.

They have really nice stats and don't need any training at all be to useful, which helps for focusing your resources on a smaller cast of characters. Janaff is considerably better than Ulki because of STR and his proximity to Tear, but since Adepts exist in sufficient quantity, Ulki is alright even up to just before Endgame.

The issue is that they are probably not going to Endgame (can't compete with royals or the good beorcs), so there's only about seven chapters where they are being used, five of which actually matter (3-7 and 3-E are essentially self-improvement for them, no serious impact on counts). I consider them to be very good in 3-8, 3-10, and Part 4 in Silver/Greil (so 4-P/4-3 or 4-1/4-4); basically anywhere that there is a Rout objective. I am not so hot on them in 3-11, mostly because it's Seize (and Haar is better at the quick clear, because of gauge), 1-2 range is very useful here, and the beorcs in the army are largely tier 3 at this point. But flying + Canto remains good, so they are doing something, at any rate.

Point is, Nolan's doing more for you than they are. He's got a whopping fourteen chapters where he's of various levels of usefulness (one of your best units overall at first, overshadowed until Part 3, where he's amongst the best again). And that doesn't count Endgame, where he's almost surely taking a slot unless he got RNG-screwed to hell (Reavers are really nice in both E-1 and E-5).

Yeah, cross-army comparisons are a fool's game, but this one seems pretty easy to me.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Interceptor

[-Cynthia-]

Also something no one brings up with when talking about the hawks is gauge. It takes them several turns to get going (unless we're using Laguz Stones, which are limited), and they do have to stop to grass fairly frequently. No, it's not as bad as cat gauge, but it still costs them Player Phases.

[RNG Princess]

what level do the herons get that skill that fills up laguz gauge? I remember that being helpful to save laguz gems, and I had brought Vika to endgame so it was very helpful. I'm just wondering if its possible for Reyson to get it when the hawks are around.