OMG it's a tier list

[Interceptor]

What's the damn difference when it's crappy damage? I know, it's "He at least damages", whatever, point is, it's very unreliable, it's potshotting, he is doing about 9-10 Dmg to Halberdiers, again, it's unreliable.

By the power vested in me by myself, I hereby excommunicate you from the Church of the English Language. Rolf's piddly damage is anything but unreliable: you can rely on him to deal crappy damage to a General. That is what the word MEANS. If you want to talk about something unreliable from Rolf, talk about his crit chances.

Regardless, crappy damage is not useless. If Rolf's mosquito bite is the difference between a clean kill and a RNG-reliant one, he did something useful. This is not really something that can be argued.

[Fenrir]

At any rate, 6 damage != no damage.

Bold: Soul made the mistake of assuming Heather has no competition for the Energy Drop. I countered by bringing up Ulki.

Yes, there is other competition, nephenee, Mia and the hawks probably are your best arguements.

6 damage isn't much, rhys does more to armours, he hits like 15, so even the one rolf doubles(23 mage + w/e ellight is, on 12 res) rhys does more to. Armor guys are the ones who need most chip damage too, so rhys is better offensively unless you count the ballista, but for 3-1 rhys wins. So let's move up rhys on this arguement of chip damage.

[Junkhead]

By the power vested in me by myself, I hereby excommunicate you from the Church of the English Language. Rolf's piddly damage is anything but unreliable: you can rely on him to deal crappy damage to a General. That is what the word MEANS. If you want to talk about something unreliable from Rolf, talk about his crit chances.

Regardless, crappy damage is not useless. If Rolf's mosquito bite is the difference between a clean kill and a RNG-reliant one, he did something useful. This is not really something that can be argued.

And the point of all this is: Unreliable combat > Actual utility?

He is still failing to see Enemy Phases often, which makes his uses somewhat limited, that's another reason why I consider it unreliable.

[Shadow Mir]

What's the damn difference when it's crappy damage? I know, it's "He at least damages", whatever, point is, it's very unreliable, it's potshotting, he is doing about 9-10 Dmg to Halberdiers, again, it's unreliable. I interpreted that as if he made crappy damage, which is true. He has no actual better utility, and raising him isn't really worth it when you already have Shinon, who joins with 12 levels of advantage and has much better offense, so what's the point? He's not even good at weakening enemies.

Heather does have crappy combat and concrete durability, but it is much better than being an unnecesary filler that fails to see Enemy Phases at an actual decent rate.

As for the Energy Drop to Ulki arguement: He doesn't need it, he has excellent offense until Part 4, and even by then, his offense is actually good, it may have him fail to 1RKO enemies like Warrior and Generals, but he actually gets to double SMs, something not everyone is doing unless they're 20/1 TBs or a 20/2 Nephenee, I even doubt the latter. With the constant doubling he can build up his strike, it's not garanteed to go at a decent speed, but once he does reach an S rank, he doesn't even need the Drop. He can as well fix his Atk problems by supports. So yeah, why would you go wasting it on someone who's already 1RKO'ing for a long time over someone who actually has avaibility and needs it? Not to mention Heather can support Nephenee, which is actually viable.

This is NOT Shinon vs Rolf.

Bold: Again, where's the proof? Conjecture without evidence is just meaningless blather. Also, I'm in the camp that says giving Heather an Energy Drop is a waste, because even with it, her offense stinks.

[Junkhead]

This is NOT Shinon vs Rolf.

Bold: Again, where's the proof? Conjecture without evidence is just meaningless blather. Also, I'm in the camp that says giving Heather an Energy Drop is a waste, because even with it, her offense stinks.

And this is not Ulki vs Heather either, yet, you bother being ironic as that.

I don't need proof, we who have played HM know what we're talking about, also, KS posted actual proof, so did Interceptor even though very specific not specific. Ulki doesn't need it either, Heather's offense just turns out fixable through doubling.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Soul

[nflchamp]

What's the damn difference when it's crappy damage? I know, it's "He at least damages", whatever, point is, it's very unreliable, it's potshotting, he is doing about 9-10 Dmg to Halberdiers, again, it's unreliable. I interpreted that as if he made crappy damage, which is true. He has no actual better utility, and raising him isn't really worth it when you already have Shinon, who joins with 12 levels of advantage and has much better offense, so what's the point? He's not even good at weakening enemies.

Shinon's existence means absolutely nothing when it comes to Rolf(T) vs. Heather. Shinon > Rolf(T) is something that's already reflected in the list.

Heather does have crappy combat and concrete durability, but it is much better than being an unnecesary filler that fails to see Enemy Phases at an actual decent rate.

Sure, when she's stealing stuff. Rolf is better if she's not. Small damage is better than nothing. This is also ignoring the fact that Rolf(T) may become a good unit later who is better than Heather even when she's doing stuff.

As for the Energy Drop to Ulki arguement: He doesn't need it, he has excellent offense until Part 4, and even by then, his offense is actually good, it may have him fail to 1RKO enemies like Warrior and Generals, but he actually gets to double SMs, something not everyone is doing unless they're 20/1 TBs or a 20/2 Nephenee, I even doubt the latter. With the constant doubling he can build up his strike, it's not garanteed to go at a decent speed, but once he does reach an S rank, he doesn't even need the Drop. He can as well fix his Atk problems by supports. So yeah, why would you go wasting it on someone who's already 1RKO'ing for a long time over someone who actually has avaibility and needs it? Not to mention Heather can support Nephenee, which is actually viable.

Ulki starts out with 36MT. That ORKOs pretty much nothing in 3-7. It does leave him within 8 damage on a lot of enemies though. Then go to 3-8 and the enemies suddenly stop sucking again. Even with a Janaff support for +1MT, he's whiffing nearly everything. Hell, 37MT whiffs at 3-10 Paladins. He'll also need at least +1 STR, an A support, and S strike to ORKO in Part 4 outside of Silver Army. His 25% growth and level 28 status don't make that scenario very likely. Ulki is a perfectly good (read: better than Heather) candidate for an Energy drop.

[Shadow Mir]

And this is not Ulki vs Heather either, yet, you bother being ironic as that.

I don't need proof, we who have played HM know what we're talking about, also, KS posted actual proof, so did Interceptor even though very specific not specific. Ulki doesn't need it either, Heather's offense just turns out fixable through doubling.

True. But you're the one who bothered to bring up Shinon first. Not me.

For someone who's playing through hard mode, you sure look more like you *don't* know what you're talking about, Soul. I mean, Heather for an Energy Drop? Really???

[Junkhead]

Sure, when she's stealing stuff. Rolf is better if she's not. Small damage is better than nothing. This is also ignoring the fact that Rolf(T) may become a good unit later who is better than Heather even when she's doing stuff.

The fact I added Shinon was because it's inefficient to be training a unit who starts out underleveled, fails to see Enemy Phases (Something I get tired of bringing up), really, Exp gain on HM isn't as abundant as it used to be in NM, so you might as well be using it on characters who will actually repay you. (i.e: Mia, Gatrie, Oscar, Ike)

Rolf shouldn't be promoting until late Part 3 or early Part 4 by going effeciently, and by then, his damage is unreliable. So why would you even be training him in the first place? He's only of some use when it comes to 3-1 weakening on some 3-1 enemies. That's about it, that shouldn't even be considered utility when it isn't needed. You could do the same with Titania and get high-Def enemies to low HP, so characters like Mia get kills.

Ulki starts out with 36MT. That ORKOs pretty much nothing in 3-7. It does leave him within 8 damage on a lot of enemies though. Then go to 3-8 and the enemies suddenly stop sucking again. Even with a Janaff support for +1MT, he's whiffing nearly everything. Hell, 37MT whiffs at 3-10 Paladins. He'll also need at least +1 STR, an A support, and S strike to ORKO in Part 4 outside of Silver Army. His 25% growth and level 28 status don't make that scenario very likely. Ulki is a perfectly good (read: better than Heather) candidate for an Energy drop.

Either way, Ulki's getting 1 Exp per kill, so you might as well just let him fail to 1RKO and leave enemies on low HP, similiar to Elincia's Mercy, except this is actually intended.

For someone who's playing through hard mode, you sure look more like you *don't* know what you're talking about, Soul. I mean, Heather for an Energy Drop? Really???

I know, I can agree myself how silly and favoristic it sounds. It's just an actualy way of making her offense competent to Rolf's, as she actually gets to double. I just consider her thieving utility an up while having similiar combat with the inclusion of a drop.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Soul

[dondon151]

Either way, Ulki's getting 1 Exp per kill, so you might as well just let him fail to 1RKO and leave enemies on low HP, similiar to Elincia's Mercy, except this is actually intended.

The problem is that a missed kill is a missed kill. Unless you have enough units to mop up everything that Ulki attacks on enemy phase, you are outright losing efficiency by doing so. Additionally, if Ulki absolutely needs to score enemy phase kills for a certain strategy to work, then you can't simply have him as your designated weakening battery.

[RNG Princess]

does disarm only activate on good and best biorhythym?

[Interceptor]

It activates whenever, but since the thing is (SKL/2)%, it's not really reliable unless it has a biorhythm boost.

[RNG Princess]

well thats interesting :3

My tactics usually involve Ike with bronze sword and flourish against priests carrying physic staves or anyone with shiny weapons. Thats too unefficient though isn't it?

[Shadow Mir]

Either way, Ulki's getting 1 Exp per kill, so you might as well just let him fail to 1RKO and leave enemies on low HP, similiar to Elincia's Mercy, except this is actually intended.

I know, I can agree myself how silly and favoristic it sounds. It's just an actualy way of making her offense competent to Rolf's, as she actually gets to double. I just consider her thieving utility an up while having similiar combat with the inclusion of a drop.

What you're recommending is grossly inefficient, because no matter what, a missed kill is still a missed kill. And if an enemy is left critically wounded and Enemy Phase comes, they're likely running for a healer or to get a healing item, which is going to end up costing you turns.

Except for the part where it doesn't, because doubling doesn't magically give you better offense. And it'll take a lot to bring Heather's offense to anything remotely competing with Rolf's.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[Junkhead]

What you're recommending is grossly inefficient, because no matter what, a missed kill is still a missed kill. And if an enemy is left critically wounded and Enemy Phase comes, they're likely running for a healer or to get a healing item, which is going to end up costing you turns.

Except for the part where it doesn't, because doubling doesn't magically give you better offense. And it'll take a lot to bring Heather's offense to anything remotely competing with Rolf's.

You're stating the exact same thing Dondon did. Why? I've already been proved wrong. Also, you're exagerating on, you're missing at least a turn. Players aren't going to let that happen, first of all, when Ulki arrives, he starts untransformed and at the start of the map, so having characters in range of enemies to kill isn't unlikely.

"Grossly effecient" seems pretty heavy, just to think you're even letting Rolf get actual kills. And not to mention lack of Enemy Phase. Like I said, you might as well distribute Exp well among characters who will actually pay off in the end without the requirement of favoritism, and Rolf does need favoritism to reach 20/20 by late Part 3 or Part 4, but by then, his offense will still suck, and he is again, stuck to chip damage utility. Heather getting to steal some staves saves you gold at least. Rolf doesn't bring anything new to the table.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Soul

[Shadow Mir]

"Grossly effecient" seems pretty heavy, just to think you're even letting Rolf get actual kills. Like I said, you might as well distribute Exp well among characters who will actually pay off in the end without the requirement of favoritism, and Rolf does need favoritism to reach 20/20 by late Part 3 or Part 4, but by then, his offense will still suck, and he is again, stuck to chip damage utility. Heather getting to steal some staves saves you gold at least. Rolf doesn't bring anything new to the table.

The issue is if she can steal the staves without slowing me down. And again, you're overemphasizing thief utility since it's all Heather has over Rolf. And as for the lack of enemy phase, what is Heather doing on enemy phase? Doing piddle damage to some halb? Tinking a general? If that's all, she might as well not even have an enemy phase either.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[Junkhead]

The issue is if she can steal the staves without slowing me down. And again, you're overemphasizing thief utility since it's all Heather has over Rolf.

And Rolf isn't? He needs to be fed kills for quite a while, and you're actually needing to reduce enemies to one digit HP until his Str grows. Rolf (T) needs at least five levels before getting to double 3-2 Generals, and assuming he's getting that much levels in one or two chapters is favoritism.

So again, how is he better when the only use he has is chip damage when it isn't even necesary to make things faster? He's irrelevant to effeciency, Heather at least provides some thieving throughout Part 3 & 4. Some, not much saying, but it is actually of some use, it isn't slowing you down with her high Mov, she just snatches an item and let another character have the kill. Easy as that.

[RNG Princess]

There is also a lot of enemies carrying vulenaries, she can make more use of her stealing ability on that.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Junkhead]

And I actually count that in, you might as well sell the lot of them you get. Which actually comes in handy when you want to buy expensive items at the Shop and save for the next chapter.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Soul

[Shadow Mir]

There is also a lot of enemies carrying vulenaries, she can make more use of her stealing ability on that.

Vulneraries? You mean the stuff that's so common they might as well grow on trees? You're really getting desperate if you think that she deserves credit for THAT.

[Junkhead]

Somebody should really give a better reason on why constant, unnecesary chip damage > Gold effeciency utility.

[RNG Princess]

Vulneraries? You mean the stuff that's so common they might as well grow on trees? You're really getting desperate if you think that she deserves credit for THAT.

Yes it could be sold for free gold and buy a good forge ;)

I also enjoy having free javelins and tomes iirc Heather can steal a bunch of those.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Shadow Mir]

Yes it could be sold for free gold and buy a good forge ;)

I also enjoy having free javelins and tomes iirc Heather can steal a bunch of those.

400 gold would get me something like a bag of chips. AKA, it's a drop in the bucket.

Disarm is unreliable. That is all.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[RNG Princess]

400 gold would get me something like a bag of chips. AKA, it's a drop in the bucket.

Disarm is unreliable. That is all.

She can also find coins, ettard, spirit dust, rescue staff.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Shadow Mir]

She can also find coins, ettard, spirit dust, rescue staff.

And only the Ettard and Rescue staff are worth mentioning, because coins go under the category of "crap that's so common they might as well grow on trees" and Heather is not in 3-9.

[Fenrir]

Has anyone taken into account that heather steals an energy drop and draco shield, either a lot of money or adds to people's weak spots, and who has a weakness of def and str? well heather could fall under that category and these items make her or her team better, rolf helps with the mighty 5-6 damage an energy drops adds 4 damage to heather or mia's total attack(2 attacks with 2 higher might) so shouldn't heather get some credit for this?(not to mention it can help janaff, ulki, and ranulf ORKO more enemies. I fail to see where rolf is helpful anywhere past 3-1 and i see heather stealing all kinds of stuff

Also, Queen Elincia said she steals vulneries, if an enemy has been hit down to like 10hp and you have rolf OR heather out there rolf hit his 9 or w/e heather can hit like double 3s yes but if he has a vulnery she can steal it and make it easier kill for someone else on the next turn. another thing it does, while one is only worth 400 gold if you steal a couple and a jav or something she starts actually making you money for your forges. heather is an interesting character with nice utility, rolf gets his mossy head ripped off and can't do anything about it on enemy phase.

EDIT: what about 4-3? you have sothe but with heather you can get all of the treasure much faster, which leads to better efficiency.

Edited June 22, 2010 by King Soren