OMG it's a tier list

[RNG Princess]

Exactly. Rafiel has 1-8 and 1-E in which he doesn't do a lot. 4-1 he still doesn't do much. Outside 4-E, his best chapter is 4-4. I suppose he cuts turns there, but how much does he really do in the other ones? Leanne is much more important for her pre-4-E chapters. Ignoring transfer units, the gap is only 7 characters.

Perhaps Leanne could drop below Nailah and Rafiel could rise above the hawks, but I still see Leanne > Rafiel.

I agree

I was looking at Rafiel's pros having the ability to refresh 4 units with no need of items like Reyson does, but I ignored his cons. He has no canto and has less availability and so his placing makes perfect sense at least that Leanne > him.

Edited June 28, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Shadow Mir]

Regarding Rafiel, it's the fact that he can't really do much prior to endgame. 1-8, he starts in the top left with Volug and Nailah. 1-E.... uhhh... I dunno. It can get cramped at times? 4-1, blahblahblah fog of war. He might help in 4-4, but his contribution in the other maps is questionable.

EDIT: And 1-E has longbow archers, too. Makes using him effectively in that chapter even harder.

Edited June 28, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[RNG Princess]

Regarding Rafiel, it's the fact that he can't really do much prior to endgame. 1-8, he starts in the top left with Volug and Nailah. 1-E.... uhhh... I dunno. It can get cramped at times? 4-1, blahblahblah fog of war. He might help in 4-4, but his contribution in the other maps is questionable.

EDIT: And 1-E has longbow archers, too. Makes using him effectively in that chapter even harder.

For 1-E the longbow archer is on the third layer, I'm more worried of risking him against the mages and the archer on second layer so I rather walk him the safe way up through the stairs on the right side instead of the ledges.

Edited June 28, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Shadow Mir]

For 1-E the longbow archer is on the third layer, I'm more worried of risking him against the mages and the archer on second layer so I rather walk him the safe way up through the stairs on the right side instead of the ledges.

There are two of them - an iron longbow archer near a killing edge myrmidon and a steel longbow archer not too far from Jarod's position.

[nflchamp]

There are two of them - an iron longbow archer near a killing edge myrmidon and a steel longbow archer not too far from Jarod's position.

Doesn't really matter, both are going to be dead before Rafiel makes it to them.

[Fenrir]

Exactly. Rafiel has 1-8 and 1-E in which he doesn't do a lot. 4-1 he still doesn't do much. Outside 4-E, his best chapter is 4-4. I suppose he cuts turns there, but how much does he really do in the other ones? Leanne is much more important for her pre-4-E chapters. Ignoring transfer units, the gap is only 7 characters.

Perhaps Leanne could drop below Nailah and Rafiel could rise above the hawks, but I still see Leanne > Rafiel.

I think the herons are in just the right spot. This is one thing that shouldn't be argued about.

Also, @Queen Elincia, Oliver shouldn't be dropping into bottom, he should be at the bottom of low, he's not as useless as Fiona or Lyre, those two should probably never be deployed.

[dondon151]

Are you Soul's alt? The same vein of poor, unsubstantiated arguments, the ceaseless use of run-on sentences... It has to be that.

[RNG Princess]

I think the herons are in just the right spot. This is one thing that shouldn't be argued about.

Also, @Queen Elincia, Oliver shouldn't be dropping into bottom, he should be at the bottom of low, he's not as useless as Fiona or Lyre, those two should probably never be deployed.

I agree with Lyre but not Fiona she has her uses in Part 3. In Part 3 Fiona could javelin throw at the cats or tiger to reduce their transformation gauge and chipping to untransformed laguz so someone takes the kill and even use of torch items, blocking ledges with no cost of deployment.

Edited June 28, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Fenrir]

Are you Soul's alt? The same vein of poor, unsubstantiated arguments, the ceaseless use of run-on sentences... It has to be that.

fucking summer time and i still get shit about run on sentences goddamnit

I agree with Lyre but not Fiona she has her uses in Part 3. In Part 3 Fiona could javelin throw at the cats or tiger to reduce their transformation gauge and chipping to untransformed laguz so someone takes the kill and even use of torch items, blocking ledges with no cost of deployment.

that's hardly a reason that someone is good, oliver can use purge and heal, more useful than chipping with a jav imo.

[RNG Princess]

fucking summer time and i still get shit about run on sentences goddamnit

that's hardly a reason that someone is good, oliver can use purge and heal, more useful than chipping with a jav imo.

imo Oliver's deployment could go to somebody better and I already have a destined healer named Micaiah.

[dondon151]

fucking summer time and i still get shit about run on sentences goddamnit

Well, you are on a forum with a high volume of debating. Expect to not get taken seriously if you consistently use improper grammar and spelling.

[Fenrir]

Well, you are on a forum with a high volume of debating. Expect to not get taken seriously if you consistently use improper grammar and spelling.

your not to be taken seiriusly with all of this off topic BS.

@queen elincia, if miccy is your pre-destined healer, i have pre-destined units to deal with P3, Nolan, in your current PT you saw how good he is.

Jill, one of the only units who can kill Ike on 3-13. Aran, can take attacks well. Eddy and Zihark, well they're at least better than Fiona. Lastly, Tauroneo.

with all of these people i dont want fiona hitting untransformed laguz, they hurt exp making it harder on your units late-game and possibly harder to KO ike. And Fiona will probably be ORKO'd, just like she is on her first stage.

[Narga_Rocks]

your not to be taken seiriusly with all of this off topic BS.

Are you Soul's alt? The same vein of poor, unsubstantiated arguments, the ceaseless use of run-on sentences... It has to be that.

That's not actually off-topic, you know. And his other post was a response to you complaining about his point about the run-on sentences.

@queen elincia, if miccy is your pre-destined healer, i have pre-destined units to deal with P3, Nolan, in your current PT you saw how good he is.

Jill, one of the only units who can kill Ike on 3-13. Aran, can take attacks well. Eddy and Zihark, well they're at least better than Fiona. Lastly, Tauroneo.

Okay, but Fiona is free deployment? That's the problem with Oliver. You could use somebody better. You can't say that with Fiona. It's Fiona or nobody, because if you don't use her you are down one unit. Anything that she can do to pinch in while your other units are doing the tough jobs is more than Oliver is doing.

with all of these people i dont want fiona hitting untransformed laguz, they hurt exp making it harder on your units late-game and possibly harder to KO ike. And Fiona will probably be ORKO'd, just like she is on her first stage.

a: how is she getting ORKO'd when using a javelin on enemies with no 2 range?

b: while it's cool to kill most of the laguz transformed for exp, killing a couple untransformed in the name of speed isn't exactly a bad thing.

But I'm not a huge fan of optimal deployment only. I think Oliver should be hurt by it which makes sanaki > Oliver easy to see, but you can't just treat it like he's never doing anything and thus Oliver < Fiona/Meg/Astrid due to their forced chapters.

[Fenrir]

oh yes, i forgot the DB is basically always free deployment. So i guess i can agree with that.

Also, how is it not off topic to talk about someone's inept grammer? i was told by speedwagon to Pm people about this kind of stuff, a complaint about someone, comment on their pic/sig, anything like that.

[Narga_Rocks]

oh yes, i forgot the DB is basically always free deployment. So i guess i can agree with that.

Also, how is it not off topic to talk about someone's inept grammer? i was told by speedwagon to Pm people about this kind of stuff, a complaint about someone, comment on their pic/sig, anything like that.

I didn't bold the part about grammar. I bolded the part about "unsubstantiated arguments". Considering this is a tier list topic in which arguments happen, it is arguably on topic.

Granted, it's very borderline. At least, considering the post also contains a question about whether you are soul's alt and the thing about run-on sentences. But it does have some arguably on-topic content, and thus it is not completely off-topic. In other words, good enough, since it's also a statement about the quality of your pro Oliver argument: "Also, @Queen Elincia, Oliver shouldn't be dropping into bottom, he should be at the bottom of low, he's not as useless as Fiona or Lyre, those two should probably never be deployed."

[RNG Princess]

That's not actually off-topic, you know. And his other post was a response to you complaining about his point about the run-on sentences.

Okay, but Fiona is free deployment? That's the problem with Oliver. You could use somebody better. You can't say that with Fiona. It's Fiona or nobody, because if you don't use her you are down one unit. Anything that she can do to pinch in while your other units are doing the tough jobs is more than Oliver is doing.

a: how is she getting ORKO'd when using a javelin on enemies with no 2 range?

b: while it's cool to kill most of the laguz transformed for exp, killing a couple untransformed in the name of speed isn't exactly a bad thing.

But I'm not a huge fan of optimal deployment only. I think Oliver should be hurt by it which makes sanaki > Oliver easy to see, but you can't just treat it like he's never doing anything and thus Oliver < Fiona/Meg/Astrid due to their forced chapters.

I say Pelleas/Astrid/Meg/Fiona > Oliver

His healing is nice but his fighting is pretty bad, I do think he can replace Micaiah as a healer for 4-E-1 so she can Thani bomb generals. However he's likely to get in the way for 4-E-4 and 4-E-5 because Micaiah sucks at dealing damage to spirits and auras and he does too (i'm not considering 4-E-2 and 4-E-3 since they can be finished in 1 turn iirc but he would probably need as much shielding as Sanaki). 4-E-1 is a rout chapter and his combat is less than decent unless he lands coronas, his problem is that there are better deployment options.

Pelleas/Astrid/Meg/Fiona don't suffer from that problem and although they have issues as well they are not costing anyone else the opportunity to perform better than they are.

Edited June 29, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[nflchamp]

I say Pelleas/Astrid/Meg/Fiona > Oliver

His healing is nice but his fighting is pretty bad, I do think he can replace Micaiah as a healer for 4-E-1 so she can Thani bomb generals. However he's likely to get in the way for 4-E-4 and 4-E-5 because Micaiah sucks at dealing damage to spirits and auras and he does too (i'm not considering 4-E-2 and 4-E-3 since they can be finished in 1 turn iirc but he would probably need as much shielding as Sanaki). 4-E-1 is a rout chapter and his combat is less than decent unless he lands coronas, his problem is that there are better deployment options.

Pelleas/Astrid/Meg/Fiona don't suffer from that problem and although they have issues as well they are not costing anyone else the opportunity to perform better than they are.

I will never support Oliver below Astrid/Meg/Fiona. Unless, of course, you want to drop Stefan/Volke/Renning/Kyza down there, too. They're always outclassed by somebody for their entire existences. Sure, they're better than Oliver, but they'll still fall to the same logic that is being applied to Oliver.

[RNG Princess]

I will never support Oliver below Astrid/Meg/Fiona. Unless, of course, you want to drop Stefan/Volke/Renning/Kyza down there, too. They're always outclassed by somebody for their entire existences. Sure, they're better than Oliver, but they'll still fall to the same logic that is being applied to Oliver.

I support Kyza dropping as well, I'm not sure about Renning or Stefan but at least their combat looks promising for endgame reducing me some turns, and I know it doesn't count but I need that Vague Katti and Stefan can use it nicely in the desert chapter. Volke gets a free chapter of combat similar to BK or you could just ignore him. Using them is free for their recruiting chapters and you can't pick anyone better for at least that one chapter. My logic is that a character who offers small portions that no one else can do while not hurting someone better to have the chance to contribute more is better than someone okay who is getting in the way of someone even better.

Edited June 29, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[nflchamp]

I support Kyza dropping as well, I'm not sure about Renning or Stefan but at least their combat looks promising for endgame reducing me some turns, and I know it doesn't count but I need that Vague Katti and Stefan can use it nicely in the desert chapter. Volke gets a free chapter of combat similar to BK or you could just ignore him. Using them is free for their recruiting chapters and you can't pick anyone better for at least that one chapter. My logic is that a character who offers small portions that no one else can do while not hurting someone better to have the chance to contribute more is better than someone okay who is getting in the way of someone even better.

Sure, Renning, Stefan, and Volke can do fine in Endgame, but there are better choices. Therefore, by the same logic you're saying Oliver is under Fiona/Astrid/Meg, they are too.

As for Stefan in 4-3, the chapter is basically over by the time you recruit him; and I doubt his superb movement in the desert will even let him reach any enemies.

Volke in 4-5 is as good as any other scrub who's around while Tibarn wins the chapter. Big deal, that's basically nothing.

[RNG Princess]

Sure, Renning, Stefan, and Volke can do fine in Endgame, but there are better choices. Therefore, by the same logic you're saying Oliver is under Fiona/Astrid/Meg, they are too.

As for Stefan in 4-3, the chapter is basically over by the time you recruit him; and I doubt his superb movement in the desert will even let him reach any enemies.

Volke in 4-5 is as good as any other scrub who's around while Tibarn wins the chapter. Big deal, that's basically nothing.

Well they are pretty much substitute characters, if they have to move down then I have no objection.

At least they are decent back up and offer combat and durability which is much appreciated during endgame.

However I say Astrid/Meg/Fiona's contributions are more than Oliver can offer.

[Fenrir]

Sure, Renning, Stefan, and Volke can do fine in Endgame, but there are better choices. Therefore, by the same logic you're saying Oliver is under Fiona/Astrid/Meg, they are too.

As for Stefan in 4-3, the chapter is basically over by the time you recruit him; and I doubt his superb movement in the desert will even let him reach any enemies.

Volke in 4-5 is as good as any other scrub who's around while Tibarn wins the chapter. Big deal, that's basically nothing.

lol 4-3 stefan is useless, the most enemies he's ever killed is like 2, Lucia is better than him in P4. Volke is better, but as you said virtually useless.

Well they are pretty much substitute characters, if they have to move down then I have no objection.

At least they are decent back up and offer combat and durability which is much appreciated during endgame.

However I say Astrid/Meg/Fiona's contributions are more than Oliver can offer.

you do realise you just contridicted yourself. I think your saying astrid/meg/fiona are > oliver, but fiona/meg/astrid < renning/stefan/volke(you said, "At least they are decent back up and offer combat and durability which is much appreciated during endgame." implying that "they" are volke/renning/stefan, and that "they" are better than oliver) but, all 4 of these characters must be on the same tier for reasons stated by nflchamp.

Or am i totally missing the point?

[-Cynthia-]

The point is that Renning/Stefan/Volke are still inferior deploylment (esp. Renning) and thus should be in the same position as Oliver under Astrid/Meg/Fiona. Well not Volke so much since he has 4-5, 4-3 isn't a big + for Stefan (though it is a rout map, so Stefan killing 2 might save a turn somehow.)

Basically, Renning isn't anywhere close to the top 10, neither is Oliver and that's all they have. However, tiering them on the basis of if they are deployed means that they aren't terrible enough to be totally useless during 4-E and thus are probably better than Astrid/Fiona/Meg. If you drop Oliver, drop Renning right above him.

Edited June 29, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Anouleth]

Renning is not as awful as people make out. He can pick up a Hammer and smash Generals in 4-E-1 (he doubles the slowest ones, and can double more depending on whether you're willing to give him statboosters and BEXP). Then he can bless a Wyrmslayer in 4-E-3, or more likely just take the Brave Axe. Brave Axe Renning with Parity can easily 1-round spirits, for example. Admittedly he's pretty awful in 4-E-5, but he at least has canto so he doesn't get in the way.

Oliver is in a different situation to Renning because no matter who you've trained or how screwed they've been, he is still 12th or 13th in line for an Endgame slot, while Renning is arguably 10th. I can easily see dondon deploying Renning in his 0% growths run, but not Oliver.

Edited June 29, 2010 by Slowking

[nflchamp]

Renning is not as awful as people make out. He can pick up a Hammer and smash Generals in 4-E-1 (he doubles the slowest ones, and can double more depending on whether you're willing to give him statboosters and BEXP). Then he can bless a Wyrmslayer in 4-E-3, or more likely just take the Brave Axe. Brave Axe Renning with Parity can easily 1-round spirits, for example. Admittedly he's pretty awful in 4-E-5, but he at least has canto so he doesn't get in the way.

Oliver is in a different situation to Renning because no matter who you've trained or how screwed they've been, he is still 12th or 13th in line for an Endgame slot, while Renning is arguably 10th. I can easily see dondon deploying Renning in his 0% growths run, but not Oliver.

The point is, under normal circumstances, Renning is never going to be deployed and Stefan and Volke are useless. Renning/Volke/Stefan/Oliver are already ranked solely on their endgame contributions now. If we're going to drop Oliver under the pathetic people because he's not optimal, then we obviously need to send the rest of our non-optimals down there too.

[Renall]

On the other hand, DB is free deployment, so doesn't that kind of come down to how we're valuing contribution and deployment generally? This seems to be creeping toward the same argument going on in the FE6 Tier List about optimal deployment or assumed use.