OMG it's a tier list

[General Banzai]

How do you suggest we rank characters, then? What would your ideal terms be?

Not that it will matter. If you didn't notice, we've been doing things our preferred way for 20 months and 6,000 posts. Don't think you can come in here and tell us we aren't doing it right.

Ironically, that was specifically what I intended to do, but I should have realized it wouldn't work.

[Narga_Rocks]

As for the discussions at hand, I doubt Pelleas can even hit 15 by 4-5. Moreover, I don't know why I'd throw a crown at him. He's going at basically base. This is a problem as even with 26 MAG and Dragonfoe, he's only got 53MT effective on a dragon w/ Fenrir. 53MT - 18RES = 35 damage a pop. Dragon's float right around 70 HP. He's got chances of missing a ORKO if he's unlucky and a dragon procs 71 HP. He misses 26 MAG and his chances of being able to ORKO are pretty much as good as gone. I'm doubting the chances of a 68 HP dragon coming around. 24 MAG Pelleas can't do anything, that's all there is to it. 66 HP dragon ain't happening.

Actually, no idea what is going on with those stats listed on the site, but my base Pelleas was able to ORKO all but 1, and yet the only reason for that was because the guy had 12 AS instead of 10 AS. Everything else had small enough hp/def and 10 AS and got ORKOd.

Ironically, that was specifically what I intended to do, but I should have realized it wouldn't work.

Um, tier list has premise: turns matter to a certain extent. You want to change that to what? You might as well make another list. What's the point in trying to change the premise of the list?

[Colonel M]

@ the General guy who isn't General Spoon...

I'm going to step in and comment, and in particular the point of my play through was to sort of "copy" what dondon did, turn count wise, with a little more flexibility room in some instances (if example I was a turn or two off, I wasn't going to kick myself too much in the ass for it). Many of the strategies, which I even went as far as to use, have had high success rates, with only minor issues that involves:

- Hit connections, but this is always something that is variable, and chances are there are other units that can "cover" it up.

- Finding some of the items (i.e. Beastfoe, Arms Scroll in 2-3). The Arms Scroll in 2-3 I point out primarily because it was one of my big reasons for resetting since I wanted to get it on the first turn Geoffrey landed on it. You are given 2 other chances, I believe, to get it. If you were pinned to take a 6 Turn to find it, I wouldn't skin you alive.

Aside from that, keep in mind that for the most part I would only glance at the turn counts, then I would go try to find the strategy myself. Once in a while I'd take a peek for a hint with dondon's videos (this I will admit), but usually it's to figure out what he might've done the first turn or what he fielded (what he fielded was regard to Asstrid). While some of the strats did involve something similar to what he did, I did also go look for instances where chances of success were a bit higher. I point to 2-1 in this example where he had used Nephenee to Wrath crit. While it involves barging through the AK with Brom and "minor" resetting to cut the #HKO against the AK, the chances of success with it should at least be a bit higher than that. I also took an extra turn on 2-E, and while I did take an extra turn, I also nabbed Nullify. I would've taken the extra Turn in 2-2 to get the Skill Book, and maybe I should've considered it at least.

Remember: I have growths on my side on my play through, and while I may take the extra turn (or turns) because I left Jill unpromoted in 1-6-1, for example, it is also possible that I will obtain the reward in a lower turncount (or, possibly, a safer alternative) later in the play through. For example, my Nolan will be able to survive Tigers and Cats and Bears, oh my! in this play through. I will at least glance at what happens in regards to other units later on, but I am willing to point out that not everything he does is completely RNG-manipulative, and also remember that with no growths on his side he has a handicap in many situations while I had situations that were more favorable for me. For example, because Sothe proc'd Str (he gained 2 levels I think?) Sothe was able to ORKO the Chapter 1-8 boss with his Knife forge.

As for other notes, I'm going to stay out of the healer debacle since usually I would say that they both are about in the same vicinity of use: healbots. As for units like Sothe and Volug and co... I'll weigh in later.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Colonel M

[RNG Princess]

"Efficient". You say it as though this game has a tactics rank. Since it doesn't I see no need to beat chapters at speedrun-like speeds. I mean, if you gain more experience taking more time on chapters, then why not do that?

Efficient as in completing it the easiest way, while not wasting too many resources/funds, and finishing in needed turns while keeping everyone alive (and whatever else efficient stands for).

Some benefits Ike has over Haar is that he's much more affordable with free weapons, bonds, supports, and he doesn't need a crown and sometimes won't need a speedwing or another stat booster and certainly not a forge. As for Haar he's a little more costly by needing a speedwing, forges, and skills to be packed on him to improve his performance, (Haar without Saviour isn't as useful). Those are some reasons I think Ike > Haar. However I'm more on the boat that Haar's contributions are better than Ike's.

Also if the player takes more time on chapters to gain experience then they're playing casually. If that logic was applied then Fiona > Titania etc.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Fenrir]

As an aside: WTF @ this guy who rolls into a 20-month old, 6000+ post thread, and proceeds to lay down a bunch of crazy shit, with no preamble whatsoever. I hereby proclaim you the August 2010 winner of the Giant Brass Balls Medal, in recognition of your willingness to stroll naked up to a beehive, and then hit it with a baseball bat. Congratulations are in order, as this accolade is generally awarded posthumously.

aw that was fucking funny dude, the rest of this arguement is dumb, but that shit made it worth it.

@general, basically what rfof said, if u dont like being effecient make your own list.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Fenrir

[dondon151]

As for Haar he's a little more costly by needing a speedwing and skills to be packed on him to improve his performance, (Haar without Saviour isn't as useful). Those are some reasons I think Ike > Haar. However I'm more on the boat that Haar's contributions are better than Ike's.

Savior pretty much has Haar's name written all over it. He doesn't really need the Speedwings either (I wasn't really ever hampered by him not doubling), but it's just icing on the cake.

[-Cynthia-]

@ Colonel M With regards to your playthrough, I noticed you used Laura...almost not at all past 1-4. Well either that, or you didn't bother updating your level. Anyone else think she might be a little overrated? Healing is useful when there are chokepoints to protect Laura, but a lot of the DB chapters don't have that.

I personally found myself not using Laura past a certain point either, she has to be proteced a lot and tends not to keep up anyway. Physic appears in 3-6 and beyond, but Micaiah's Mag should be much better, so might as well use her instead. Micaiah existing doesn't completely overrule Laura's Physic utility, but Laura's Physic range isn't very good due to low Mag (Laura probably doesn't gain many levels) and it won't heal that fully regardless.

I don't think Laura's as useful as Jill, but she's probably better than Aran/Tauroneo, so she should go somewhere in there.

Edited August 13, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[RNG Princess]

Savior pretty much has Haar's name written all over it. He doesn't really need the Speedwings either (I wasn't really ever hampered by him not doubling), but it's just icing on the cake.

I was trying to list an advantage Ike has over Haar since General_Banzai seems to think Ike has nothing on Haar. (and I think I got one right, I still like Haar better)

Speedwing certainly helps Haar stay up there and those hand axe forges help but they cost.

I don't think Laura's as useful as Jill, but she's probably better than Aran/Tauroneo, so she should go somewhere in there.

I think Laura should go below Jill too.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Colonel M]

Laura's usefulness likely will stem in Part 3, but the general problem is that Vulneraries pretty much replicate what healing does. She still has minor uses with healing, so I wouldn't call her useless by any means since she still allows a Player Phase. I would think she is a little high maybe, but I'd like to wait until I get to 3-6 before I completely weigh on her lowering on the tier list.

EDIT: Nvm I guess I did write down her levels.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Colonel M

[Soren37]

I agree with Laura dropping below Jill. While healing's helpful for the DB, she's almost impossible to gain levels with unless you Staff Abuse, give her Discipline, or BEXP her levels, which you want to save for later chapters. This means that you can't put her amazing 70% growths to use. Healing's useful, but she doesn't have a late game what-so-ever, especially once Miccy promotes.

Jill has a tiny bit of a shaky start, but you can give her a forge and Saviour or Paragon, and then she's set for gaining levels. Flying utility, while not extremely useful in Part 1 except for a few parts (1-6-1 and 1-6-2), is especially useful later on (3-6).

If we were on Easy or Normal, then she would stay fairly high. However, we're on Hard. Her only saving grace is the fact that she's not affected by the EXP losses of HM, but even then, it's negligible when compared to Jill.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Soren37

[Interceptor]

Ironically, that was specifically what I intended to do, but I should have realized it wouldn't work.

That is not even close to being ironic. This word has a specific meaning, one that's not merely synonymous with "funny coincidence".

Laura's usefulness likely will stem in Part 3, but the general problem is that Vulneraries pretty much replicate what healing does. She still has minor uses with healing, so I wouldn't call her useless by any means since she still allows a Player Phase. I would think she is a little high maybe, but I'd like to wait until I get to 3-6 before I completely weigh on her lowering on the tier list.

Player Phase is pretty important in both 3-6 and 3-13, so I wouldn't characterize it as "minor". Micaiah is a better healer than Laura, but she's only one unit, and sometimes you need to use Micaiah's offense (via critThani or Purge). This is particularly the case in 3-6, as units like Nolan, Volug, and Jill really cannot afford to give up their attacks to pop Concoctions/Vulneraries except in emergencies. Nolan's offense is part of his durability (something he OHKOs on Player Phase cannot attack him on Enemy Phase), Jill needs as many kills as she can get to prep for 3-12 and beyond, and Volug has a whole lot of grassing to do. On the subject of Volug in particular, Laura is just as good with Recover on him as Micaiah is.

[Colonel M]

Keep in mind I am not saying that Laura is useless, since her task like Rhys and Mist's do not require levels. The only thing they really need are the resources and the weapon ranks, which all of them pretty much have. Laura and Micaiah pretty much contribute near-equally to Rhys and Mist. Which speaking of, I still see that glaring gap between the latter two.

By the way Int, I'm speaking more along the lines of Part 1, where your durable badasses usually can survive a beating or just need the Vulnerary to carry on their task on the Enemy Phase. Units like Nolan and Zihark will need some recovery of course, but then you have units like Sothe who does decently durability wise, same with Volug until about 1-E where he's a bit iffier offensively (but then again Volug only does some gruntwork with offense and will barely be hit with the 6 Turn strat), etc. To expand on this, I had Laura do the following:

1-3: Kind of keep Nolan up to health while he held the chokepoint. This is where the Vulnerary doesn't always replicate the results since Nolan will likely have to kill on the Player Phase.

1-4: Again, followed Nolan around as well as Aran.

1-5: I remember her not doing much here. I think she was supposed to heal Nolan one turn and I forgot, though thankfully I survived the Soldier + the Boss (he had the durability to do so).

1-6-1: She healed Jill and I believe she healed Micaiah, who was able to reach a bit further and use Sacrifice to "replicate" Heal.

1-6-2: Thumbs up her ass.

1-7: Followed Nolan up to the north.

1-8: Pretty much helped Zihark and stay afloat, but IIRC not very necessary to do so either.

1-E: Nothing. Not worth fielding at all.

Part 3 will likely have more use for her of course like you said. But I guess I'm in the boat of healers being roughly equivalent to each other most of the time if there is nothing completely "unique" about them (and I'm talking about instances like Lena having Hammerne).

Edited August 13, 2010 by Colonel M

[General Banzai]

That is not even close to being ironic. This word has a specific meaning, one that's not merely synonymous with "funny coincidence".

But if you think I'm going to sit around here and argue about irony with you... then you are sorely mistaken.

Efficient as in completing it the easiest way, while not wasting too many resources/funds, and finishing in needed turns while keeping everyone alive (and whatever else efficient stands for).

Some benefits Ike has over Haar is that he's much more affordable with free weapons, bonds, supports, and he doesn't need a crown and sometimes won't need a speedwing or another stat booster and certainly not a forge. As for Haar he's a little more costly by needing a speedwing, forges, and skills to be packed on him to improve his performance, (Haar without Saviour isn't as useful). Those are some reasons I think Ike > Haar. However I'm more on the boat that Haar's contributions are better than Ike's.

Also if the player takes more time on chapters to gain experience then they're playing casually. If that logic was applied then Fiona > Titania etc.

Much more affordable? There's no point in this game where you can't afford weapons. >.>

Haar doesn't need a Crown either, unless you guys are only playing the Japanese version which would make no sense because I don't think any of you are Japanese. Haar doesn't need a Speedwing, he needs two levels of Bexp. Haar also doesn't need Savior because he can go off and do basically anything in Part 3 all by himself, and not with any weaker or less useful buddies.

And no, Fiona would not be better than Titania, because babying is not the same as spending an extra three turns per chapter to rout most of the enemy units.

And seriously, if you think there's a "casual" way to play FERD HM, you yourself have played the game far too much.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Narga_Rocks
merged two posts

[Interceptor]

But if you think I'm going to sit around here and argue about irony with you... then you are sorely mistaken.

I'd never do such an absurd thing. The word "irony" has a specific meaning, one that's not subject to your approval. There is nothing to argue about. The only reason that I even replied to your mewling noises in the first place was to partially undo the damage done to the English language by a certain Canadian singer-songwriter.

Haar doesn't need a Crown either, unless you guys are only playing the Japanese version which would make no sense because I don't think any of you are Japanese. Haar doesn't need a Speedwing, he needs two levels of Bexp. Haar also doesn't need Savior because he can go off and do basically anything in Part 3 all by himself, and not with any weaker or less useful buddies.

Haar does not "need" a crown, or a Speedwing, but those things are the only reasonable way to get him to doubling in Part 3, and then to keep him that way. BEXP levels are UN-reasonable, seeing as how BEXP level-ups prioritize higher growths (SPD is tied for 5th place), and full BEXP levels in Hard Mode are pretty expensive. He does have some limited ability to slow=play BEXP at around level 16 or so, but that's about it.

Now, you could argue that Haar doesn't really need to run around and ORKO everything he touches, but that's a bit of a heavy lift in my estimation.

[Colonel M]

Much more affordable? There's no point in this game where you can't afford weapons. >.>

See the link in Interceptor's sig? Go click on the one that says "The Greil Mercenaries Are Not Poor".

That is if you're saying that you "can't afford weapons". I dunno what you were implying so I took a stab in the air.

Haar doesn't need a Crown either, unless you guys are only playing the Japanese version which would make no sense because I don't think any of you are Japanese.

Haar promoting means that he obtains a boost in his stats. Given that most of his stats are either capped or near to cap and his growths barely make a difference anyhow, promoting him early does deter him all that much. Stun is a minor note too.

Haar doesn't need a Speedwing, he needs two levels of Bexp. Haar also doesn't need Savior because he can go off and do basically anything in Part 3 all by himself, and not with any weaker or less useful buddies.

Riight, clearly you have been playing Easy Mode or Normal Mode because there are these things that Haar hates called Sages and the ones with Thunder tomes are worse for Haar than most units.

Let's also recall that after Def and Skill cap, Spd only beats lolMag and Res in growth, while tying HP. Str and Luck are the next highest growths, and Spd still has to likely compete with a possible HP proc instead or the Res / Mag, though the chances of that are slightly lower. Combine that Haar is 2 off from capping Skill and 3 off from capping Def, chances are getting Spd in a level up from BEXP, especially 2, is rather low.

And no, Fiona would not be better than Titania, because babying is not the same as spending an extra three turns per chapter to rout most of the enemy units.

It's borderline favoritism I'm afraid. It's also inefficient. No, speed running is not the equivalent of efficient, so get that fact out of your head.

And seriously, if you think there's a "casual" way to play FERD HM, you yourself have played the game far too much.

I played this game twice, this being only my 3rd run through. I can assure you that if playing this game 3 times is too much, I hate to think how you feel about playing FE7 too much.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Colonel M

[Anouleth]

Much more affordable? There's no point in this game where you can't afford weapons. >.>

Haar doesn't need a Crown either, unless you guys are only playing the Japanese version which would make no sense because I don't think any of you are Japanese. Haar doesn't need a Speedwing, he needs two levels of Bexp. Haar also doesn't need Savior because he can go off and do basically anything in Part 3 all by himself, and not with any weaker or less useful buddies.

And no, Fiona would not be better than Titania, because babying is not the same as spending an extra three turns per chapter to rout most of the enemy units.

And seriously, if you think there's a "casual" way to play FERD HM, you yourself have played the game far too much.

We have two characters. One needs to be fed kills in order to be good, another does not. It is obvious that the second character is better.

The fact is, that you do not need characters to be at 20/20/20 in order to trivialise Endgame. There is no inherent advantage to having high levelled units, and if the amount of time we spend training a unit early on is not made up for later in the game, we have no reason to do so. Why should we sit around and farm reinforcements in 4-3 just so Haar can gain a few levels? Is he going to make up for it later on? No. Is he going to be able to do anything at all later on with his extra levels? Probably not.

( The funny part is, that if we wanted to play the training game and get someone up to 20/20/20, we wouldn't even do it with Haar. Ike, for a start, is a far better choice since he's important in 4-E-2, can double more bosses in later Endgame sections, and is forced into good deployment slots, so we want him to be able to make the most of it. )

[nflchamp]

And no, Fiona would not be better than Titania, because babying is not the same as spending an extra three turns per chapter to rout most of the enemy units.

You're on a steep slope, you realize. 'It's okay to take a couple extra turns to rout the map.' -> 'It's getting that much needed level by spending a couple of turns boss abusing.' -> 'Promoted by 1-5 is the norm, isn't it?'

And seriously, if you think there's a "casual" way to play FERD HM, you yourself have played the game far too much.

Which means you still don't understand the premise of this list.

[Fenrir]

See the link in Interceptor's sig? Go click on the one that says "The Greil Mercenaries Are Not Poor".

That is if you're saying that you "can't afford weapons". I dunno what you were implying so I took a stab in the air.

no, he meant that your never poor in this game, he did phrase it oddly tho.

Do we have to argue over the two best characters in the game? edward still isnt out of lower mid...

[Colonel M]

no, he meant that your never poor in this game, he did phrase it oddly tho.

That's it, I need a personal Clippy to help me out. Fml.

[dondon151]

By the way Int, I'm speaking more along the lines of Part 1, where your durable badasses usually can survive a beating or just need the Vulnerary to carry on their task on the Enemy Phase. Units like Nolan and Zihark will need some recovery of course, but then you have units like Sothe who does decently durability wise, same with Volug until about 1-E where he's a bit iffier offensively (but then again Volug only does some gruntwork with offense and will barely be hit with the 6 Turn strat), etc. To expand on this, I had Laura do the following:

I agree, Laura is rather underwhelming in part 1. Most of the times when I deployed her, I just had her heal to get her staff rank up (since Laura starts with D and you need C for Physic - Recover is B, so she probably can't use it, but she heals at least 28 HP with Mend, which is good enough).

As for part 3, you do have ally bishops in 3-6, 3-12, and 3-13, but you can't rely on them. In 3-6, you want to set ally AI on target and halt to create a chokepoint block, so the bishop won't do anything for around 2 turns. After that, you don't really want to set them to roam because they'll charge ahead and steal more productive enemy phases. In 3-12, the bishops like to get ORKO'd by the FKs on like turn 2, and you have 2 fronts to keep healthy. In 3-13, you want to set ally AI on halt for chokepoints and Micaiah can't move beyond the defense line.

Then in part 4, you have 5 healers to split among 3 armies. I'm not sure about how durable we claim our units to be, but Laura has use as secondary healer and Restore user. That's worth something, at least.

Now that we have that out of the way, Laura does need to drop to around Mist and Rhys level.

[RNG Princess]

Much more affordable? There's no point in this game where you can't afford weapons. >.>

Haar doesn't need a Crown either, unless you guys are only playing the Japanese version which would make no sense because I don't think any of you are Japanese. Haar doesn't need a Speedwing, he needs two levels of Bexp. Haar also doesn't need Savior because he can go off and do basically anything in Part 3 all by himself, and not with any weaker or less useful buddies.

And no, Fiona would not be better than Titania, because babying is not the same as spending an extra three turns per chapter to rout most of the enemy units.

And seriously, if you think there's a "casual" way to play FERD HM, you yourself have played the game far too much.

Sum up all the forges Haar could use to keep up with ranged attacks

Add the crown

Add the speedwing

= He costs more than a speedwinged Ike that comes with free swords (and a unlimited ranged one).

Thats what I mean about Ike being much more affordable than Haar. Certainly Haar doesn't need the speedwing or the crown but they definitely help him that much in hard mode, the hand axe forges are probably necessary though.

Also you should watch dondon's videos at least take a peek at 3-3 and 3-4, notice how Haar with saviour helps complete things faster ;).

I've played the game three times and I've used that "extra three turns to rout out most of the enemy units" tactic and Fiona turned out better than Titania. According to your post Haar ends up better than Ike around lategame so...

Edited August 13, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[General Banzai]

I'd never do such an absurd thing. The word "irony" has a specific meaning, one that's not subject to your approval. There is nothing to argue about. The only reason that I even replied to your mewling noises in the first place was to partially undo the damage done to the English language by a certain Canadian singer-songwriter.

Haar does not "need" a crown, or a Speedwing, but those things are the only reasonable way to get him to doubling in Part 3, and then to keep him that way. BEXP levels are UN-reasonable, seeing as how BEXP level-ups prioritize higher growths (SPD is tied for 5th place), and full BEXP levels in Hard Mode are pretty expensive. He does have some limited ability to slow=play BEXP at around level 16 or so, but that's about it.

Now, you could argue that Haar doesn't really need to run around and ORKO everything he touches, but that's a bit of a heavy lift in my estimation.

What IS subjective is the interpretation of the post to which I was saying was ironic. But I'm not going to argue about irony with you.

Durrrrrr don't think I don't know how Bexp levels work. Haar's capped str, skl, and def by level 19, which gives you a good level up there for spd, and he's capped skl and def far earlier than that, so it's quite likely to get spd bexp level ups as early as --/16.

Of course, nobody seems to realize this and instead says 'HEY GUYS LET'S GO AND USE A MASTER CROWN ON HIM RIGHT AWAY !!!!!" and then say "Damn that Haar! He wastes a Master Crown AND has no speed!" If the speed issue is such a big deal, DON'T PROMOTE HIM EARLY. If the Master Crown issue is such a big deal, DON'T PROMOTE HIM EARLY. You can't complain that both of those are points against Haar when they're completely avoidable. And don't start with the whole "But he gets promotion bonuses!" because Haar does not immediately need more str, skl, or def than he already has, and not promoting him and using one or two levels of bexp gets him EVEN MORE speed than he'd get regularly.

And furthermore, boss abuse =/= taking the time to kill most enemies. You can easily draw a line where the so-called "abuse" stops, it doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing "EFFICIENCY EFFICIENCY EFFICIENCY" kind of deal.

Edited August 13, 2010 by General Banzai

[Colonel M]

Before I answer your post, allow me to ask when we ever complained about Haar's Spd late game?

[Florete]

Before I answer your post, allow me to ask when we ever complained about Haar's Spd late game?

Aside from the fact that lategame Haar certainly has Spd issues, let me also ask when we complained that he "takes" a Master Crown.

[Colonel M]

Aside from the fact that lategame Haar certainly has Spd issues, let me also ask when we complained that he "takes" a Master Crown.

Er, let me rephrase that.

"How big of a difference does it make anyhow?" Remember we still likely have Brave Weapons sitting around and there's always Horseslaying Paladins in 4-P. He's likely not fielded in 4-E which isn't a big deal.