OMG it's a tier list

[dondon151]

Yes, Renning does get Brave Axe, which lets him 2HKO pretty much all spirits with like, a str proc.

[Colonel M]

So what do you make of Queen Elincia saying "if he caps speed his 33 speed cap might get in the way," or Ninji saying "Trueblades are the second best endgame class, losing out to Marksmen just because of the double bow," or RF saying "Dragonlord (F) and Silver Knight (F) (both of them) are easily better than Trueblabe and Marksmen for having more move and Canto on top of good SS weapons (more so in the Silver Knights case)?" Does Queen Elincia simply not like numbers divisible by 11? Did Ninji and RF conveniently forget that other beorc classes exist?

First off, wrt Silver Knight (F), remember that two of the shittiest characters are within that territory and, yes, it does make it arguably easier to clear 4-E-5 especially when you consider one has a 1-2 range weapon and the other has a 1-3 range weapon that increases Str. Their Spd cap makes a chapter easier. It is not necessarily a requirement either. Ninji has also not shown his head on the boards for a while. Or at least has been posting here. I can't even recall his recent post from here.

Regardless, in a void, anyone can make part of a structure toward Endgame, but their contributions will likely be marginal in comparison to the royals, in general. The only time that it matters is 4-E-1 where there are relevant 2 range enemies, and that's about it. Assuming that we're crashing through Endgame like a crazy train.

[Interceptor]

So what do you make of Queen Elincia saying "if he caps speed his 33 speed cap might get in the way," or Ninji saying "Trueblades are the second best endgame class, losing out to Marksmen just because of the double bow," or RF saying "Dragonlord (F) and Silver Knight (F) (both of them) are easily better than Trueblabe and Marksmen for having more move and Canto on top of good SS weapons (more so in the Silver Knights case)?" Does Queen Elincia simply not like numbers divisible by 11? Did Ninji and RF conveniently forget that other beorc classes exist?

While I'd love to respond to the particulars here, you've whiffed the point so badly that it looks like I'm going to have to speak slowly, use small words, and keep this reply short.

It's one thing to correct an individual for making an argument that's not relevant. It's something else entirely to take that, and make a blanket statement about everyone else. Don't do the second thing.

[dondon151]

First off, wrt Silver Knight (F), remember that two of the shittiest characters are within that territory and, yes, it does make it arguably easier to clear 4-E-5 especially when you consider one has a 1-2 range weapon and the other has a 1-3 range weapon that increases Str. Their Spd cap makes a chapter easier. It is not necessarily a requirement either.

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. A 34 spd cap does not make it easier to clear 4-E-5 with any significant results. It most certainly does not reduce a 2 turn clear to a 1 turn clear, and it won't improve the chances of success when the royals all have 90-100 hit on the auras.

[RNG Princess]

I agree that Renning, Volke, and Stefan should be closer but you have to keep in mind that Renning's deployment costs a slot. Stefan can at least help kill an enemy or two on 4-3. I know Volke costs money and idk of what he can do.

Renning costing a slot doesn't necessarily make him worthless but the only reason that I would pick him in an efficient playthrough is if he stands out better than Titania, Haar, and all the other characters that have similar performance.

[Zkirsche]

Trueblades are the second best endgame class, losing out to Marksmen just because of the double bow,

Actually, this was me, I think. :/

Although Marksmen being better has nothing to do with their speed, but their 25 atk weapon with 1-3 range. (which already makes them pretty flexible as it is, I think Smash referred to it as "canto without the horse" or something along those lines.)

And I conceded TB's, so w/e.

A 34 spd cap does not make it easier to clear 4-E-5 with any significant results.

I could say Renning does not make it any easier to clear 4-E-1 with any significant results, too.

Edited January 4, 2011 by Kevin

[Tormod]

I could say Renning does not make it any easier to clear 4-E-5 with any significant results, too.

I'm probably a little too inexperienced to chime in on this, but I don't think there's very many characters at all who would have the ability to really impact the final turncount for 4-E-5, or at least certainly not by themselves (Even Boyd's 1RKO'ing auras requires the assistance of at least one dragon if I remember right). Renning's Canto at least gives him more freedom to benefit from your heron and/or Tide effects by not needing to remain next to the auras after attacking, though.

[Zkirsche]

I meant 4-E-1 >_>

[dondon151]

I could say Renning does not make it any easier to clear 4-E-1 with any significant results, too.

I'm not just saying. There are units that are a big deal with clearing 4-E-1. My team did it in 4 turns, with a miniscule chance at 3. A team with 2 fliers (dragonlords or seraph knights) can clear in 3 turns a lot more easily. I think that a team with 2 gold knights and 2 fliers has a good chance at 2 turns.

[Anouleth]

I'm not just saying. There are units that are a big deal with clearing 4-E-1. My team did it in 4 turns, with a miniscule chance at 3. A team with 2 fliers (dragonlords or seraph knights) can clear in 3 turns a lot more easily. I think that a team with 2 gold knights and 2 fliers has a good chance at 2 turns.

Well, that can only mean two things - a team of Renning/Tanith/Titania/Haar/Jill in some combination, since the alternatives (Makalov, Kieran, Sigrun, and Marcia) are thoroughly awful in the long term. Oh, and Elincia as well, but I don't know how many levels it's reasonable for her to gain in 4-2. She needs to be like, level 13 just to double all the Sages and she has accuracy issues with the Tempest Blade.

[Colonel M]

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. A 34 spd cap does not make it easier to clear 4-E-5 with any significant results. It most certainly does not reduce a 2 turn clear to a 1 turn clear, and it won't improve the chances of success when the royals all have 90-100 hit on the auras.

I said "arguably" because you have different ways to deal with the barries and, with Silver Knight's case, they can at least Canto from Nasir to somewhere else. That's all I was getting at. Nevermind that, once again, we're talking about the shittiest of the shit pile to begin with.

Simply put, merely stating that after 4-E-1 team structure is almost irrelevant, which was the main point I was getting at to begin with. All I pointed out was it makes the chapter easier. No, it does not save turns specifically.

Edited January 5, 2011 by Tyranel M

[Anouleth]

Marcia (T) should go up or Zihark should go down.

Zihark has about 7 chapters before Part 4, in which he's quite good in Part 1 but pretty underwhelming in 3-6 and 3-13. Marcia has five chapters before Part 4, but she is very good in all of them because of flight. She is useful to eliminate the horseslayer Paladin in 2-3 and can help clear the path to the boss and get the Speedwing. She has flight/Canto in 2-E and can help clear out enemies to get the valuable items like Energy Drop and Dracoshield and clear a path to Ludveck. The same advantages apply in 3-9 where she can immediately eliminate the soldier to protect the villages and then help Geoffrey or someone kill Roark. Finally, she can be of great value in 3-11 where fliers are in high demand to accompany Leanne. So before Part 4, both Zihark and Marcia accumulate roughly the same amount of utility.

I had Marcia at level 11.99 at the end of 3-9:

38.9HP 20.1STR 7.4MAG 21.8SKL 26.55SPD 15.5LUK 18.45DEF 17.45RES

She is fast enough to double just about everything other than Swordmasters. Furthermore, she has some chance of capping speed, meaning we can start bexping her. In fact, just capping off this level will probably cap HP and SPD, and we can then give her a Secret Book for Skill. This ability to use BEXP means we can roughly expect her to reach 23 strength before we crown her for Part 4.

Comparing Marcia and Zihark in Part 4:

Marcia

44HP 26STR 12MAG 26SKL 29SPD 20LUK 25DEF 23RES

Zihark at level 20/1 (I put him at this level because while he probably won't reach it, he will probably use BEXP in tier 2 instead to reach a similiar level of ability - I don't expect he'd be significantly weaker or stronger than this).

43HP 25STR 12MAG 32SKL 32SPD 18LUK 19DEF 19RES

Marcia is fast enough to double everything in Part 4 except Swordmasters, and she not only has superior strength to Zihark, but a more powerful weapon type (translating into about +1 attack in general) and an attack boosting affinity (admittedly, it's not likely to come into play until 4-3). The only enemy type Zihark wins against are SMs, but on Greil Army, his likely destination, they are sometimes too fast even for him to double - the enemy stats list SMs as having 29 speed there. She also has Horseslayer access in 4-P, flight in 4-2, 4-3 and 4-E-1, and generally superior concrete durability. I think that it should be clear that Marcia is superior in Part 4 to Zihark.

So if both Marcia and Zihark contribute a similar amount in Part 1/2/3 and Marcia is superior in Part 4, why is she below him? I think Marcia needs to move above Zihark.

[RNG Princess]

I agree with what he said, Marcia (T) is definetly more useful than Zihark.

[Zkirsche]

Marcia (T) should go up or Zihark should go down.

Marcia (T) should probably go up. Brom/Boyd/Oscar don't really do much more than her.

Zihark has about 7 chapters before Part 4, in which he's quite good in Part 1 but pretty underwhelming in 3-6 and 3-13. Marcia has five chapters before Part 4, but she is very good in all of them because of flight. She is useful to eliminate the horseslayer Paladin in 2-3 and can help clear the path to the boss and get the Speedwing. She has flight/Canto in 2-E and can help clear out enemies to get the valuable items like Energy Drop and Dracoshield and clear a path to Ludveck. The same advantages apply in 3-9 where she can immediately eliminate the soldier to protect the villages and then help Geoffrey or someone kill Roark. Finally, she can be of great value in 3-11 where fliers are in high demand to accompany Leanne.

So before Part 4, both Zihark and Marcia accumulate roughly the same amount of utility.

I have to disagree with this, clearing out 1-2 enemies in 2-E (which doesn't save turns or really protect anyone.) and 2-3 and being the 4th string flier (and 5th string 9 mov unit) in 3-11 doesn't equate to what Zihark does in part 1, IMO.

She completely dominates part 4, however, which I think is what gets the win. 9 mov is so useful IMO. I'd even consider the Hawks > Mia just for 9 mov and flight.

I mean, her contributions pre- 3-7 are minimul anyway (3-5, 3-2 and 3-3 are Haar blitzed, 3-P is skrimir blitzed and 3-1 she's not amazing, by any standard.) But with the hawks we get 4 great 9 mov units (Haar, Titania, Janaff, Ulki), all ready to be used in combo in Reyson to quick clear chapters. I haven't found gauge to be a major issue (a hawks gauge is fairly good anyway) either.

[Psych]

.I mean, her contributions pre- 3-7 are minimul anyway (3-5, 3-2 and 3-3 are Haar blitzed, 3-P is skrimir blitzed and 3-1 she's not amazing, by any standard.) But with the hawks we get 4 great 9 mov units (Haar, Titania, Janaff, Ulki), all ready to be used in combo in Reyson to quick clear chapters. I haven't found gauge to be a major issue (a hawks gauge is fairly good anyway) either.

Man, I love using Marcia without having her....

[-Cynthia-]

Man, I love using Marcia without having her....

That was talking about Mia, not Marcia.

[Psych]

He quoted Marcia and Zihark.

Mia isn't in this at all. I don't see her relevance.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

2nd to last paragraph, last sentence of referenced post.

[Anouleth]

Marcia (T) should probably go up. Brom/Boyd/Oscar don't really do much more than her.

Oscar I think is fairly underrated. While he does take effort to get there, the potential to be a second Titania is undeniably attractive. Probably just needs a Robe, BEXP and a Crown.

I have to disagree with this, clearing out 1-2 enemies in 2-E (which doesn't save turns or really protect anyone.) and 2-3 and being the 4th string flier (and 5th string 9 mov unit) in 3-11 doesn't equate to what Zihark does in part 1, IMO.

What exactly is Zihark doing in Part 1? He has serious movement problems in 1-6, 1-8 and 1-E (especially 1-E where he is lagging behind half the team and isn't noteworthy enough to be rescued forward). Marcia probably won't save you turns in 2-E, but Zihark is probably not saving you turns in 1-E either, and we can probably lump 1-6 and 3-12 in with that as well. As cute as it is to just say 'it doesn't save turns', it is such a broad category that we could put anything in there. Putting +accuracy on our forges doesn't save turns but that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.

I mean, her contributions pre- 3-7 are minimul anyway (3-5, 3-2 and 3-3 are Haar blitzed, 3-P is skrimir blitzed and 3-1 she's not amazing, by any standard.) But with the hawks we get 4 great 9 mov units (Haar, Titania, Janaff, Ulki), all ready to be used in combo in Reyson to quick clear chapters. I haven't found gauge to be a major issue (a hawks gauge is fairly good anyway) either.

Titania and Haar have 7 movement in 3-8, Reyson doesn't exist in 3-11 and Titania has mobility issues. So really it only applies for 3-10.

He quoted Marcia and Zihark.

Mia isn't in this at all. I don't see her relevance.

I admit it's quite confusing when he starts talking about a different person in the middle of a paragraph.

[dondon151]

Zihark is capable of doing a couple of unique things in part 1. That's what being promoted with high AS and Brave Sword access does for you.

[Anouleth]

Zihark is capable of doing a couple of unique things in part 1. That's what being promoted with high AS and Brave Sword access does for you.

Marcia has some unique utility of her own as well, and I think it adds up to at least as much as what Zihark is giving us. Possibly more.

[dondon151]

Yeah, I think Marcia (T) can actually be good in part 4. Probably not good enough for 4-E where Jill and Haar are typically better, but good for either 4-P and 4-3 or 4-2.

[RNG Princess]

I like giving her Brave lance and fetching the speedwing on her own becuase that annoying halb never comes down no matter what I do :P.

[dondon151]

He'll always come down if you put a unit in a certain position. Regardless, Marcia is usually going to end up tag teaming the halb anyway on a 5 turn clear because Geoffrey is busy and no one else can ORKO (actually, Geoffrey won't ORKO either, so...).

Edited January 10, 2011 by dondon151

[RNG Princess]

I give her the brave lance though she always kills him ^_^, I'm talking about Marcia(T) btw.