OMG it's a tier list

[Florete]

Personally, I don't think it's a good idea to assume we'll go on without units (except in SD), unless there's a very good reason for doing so.

I never assume it happens for sure, I realize the possibility of it. Rafiel is frail as all hell and most likely dead by exposure to even a single enemy. Say he dies after recruiting Oliver in 4-4. The player may just not feel like restarting for him. While saving more turns is better, this isn't a maximum efficiency list.

I'm pretty sure Rafiel is still ORKO'd by even Magic enemies unless he's transformed, since 13-14 Resistance is not very stellar.

Then he was probably transformed.

[Radiant Dragon]

I never assume it happens for sure, I realize the possibility of it. Rafiel is frail as all hell and most likely dead by exposure to even a single enemy. Say he dies after recruiting Oliver in 4-4. The player may just not feel like restarting for him. While saving more turns is better, this isn't a maximum efficiency list.

I understand your point, but since this isn't a maximum efficiency list, why not just take an extra turn in 4-4 so he can recruit Oliver without biting it?

[dondon151]

Notice my post said turn 2. Because you can reach them in 2 turns, the amount of time given to clear the map.

Then you missed the point. You have zero chance at 2 turning 4-E-1 unless you can clear almost the entire middle area on turn 1, and that requires Rafiel.

[Florete]

I understand your point, but since this isn't a maximum efficiency list, why not just take an extra turn in 4-4 so he can recruit Oliver without biting it?

I was referring to a situation where the death was not foreseen.

Then you missed the point. You have zero chance at 2 turning 4-E-1 unless you can clear almost the entire middle area on turn 1, and that requires Rafiel.

Can you be so sure? I've never done it myself, but with what I've tried in the past I can honestly see it being possible.

Edited July 19, 2011 by Red Fox of Fire

[Soren37]

Out of curiosity, why is Zihark (N/T) above Mic? I would that Mic would be above him mainly because of her grand physicing powers, as well Purge and Thani severely lowering the turncount in P1.

And I just remembered that Mic's too squishy to do that, but still, why the gap? Mic provides more utility in the form of Purge nuking and Physic healing.

[I.M. Gei]

She gets no Physic or Purge until Part 3.

[Junkhead]

And she isn't even supposed to be using Purge.

[Anouleth]

She gets no Physic or Purge until Part 3.

And Zihark doesn't even exist until halfway through Part 1.

[Lord Raven]

edit: gdi, delete this

Edited July 19, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Radiant Dragon]

Pelleas, Danved

Can I assume these are your picks for Yet Another Radiant Dawn draft?

[Junkhead]

And he can only pick once, anyway. xD

[Lord Raven]

i was pretty frazzled, i apologize @_@

[Fenrir]

Wrong topic in RD, well done

[Zanarkin]

Boyd T should go above Gatrie.

-Boyd has no problem with speed

-He has more offense than Gatrie

-Has more move

-Has no problems doubling all the way into endgame

-He doesn't need the Crown in 3-3 to remain useful.

[Fenrir]

Boyd T should go above Gatrie.

-Boyd has no problem with speed

-He has more offense than Gatrie

-Has more move

-Has no problems doubling all the way into endgame

-He doesn't need the Crown in 3-3 to remain useful.

I agree.

His 3rd tier is also > gatrie

[aku chi]

Boyd T should go above Gatrie.

-Boyd has no problem with speed

-He has more offense than Gatrie

-Has more move

-Has no problems doubling all the way into endgame

-He doesn't need the Crown in 3-3 to remain useful.

Oh? The only thing Boyd (T) has over Gatrie is +1 mov and better endgame potential (and maybe 4-4, whenever Boyd can exceed Gatrie's caps). Meanwhile, Gatrie kicks his ass throughout Part 3. Gatrie does really want either the 3-3 or 3-6 (through 3-7) Master Crowns to get around his poor caps, but we are rewarded by excellent performance for the rest of Part 3. Let's take a look at their starting stats:

Boyd (T) - 50 HP, 24 Str, 22 Skl, 20 Spd, 13 Lck, 15 Def, 8 Res

Gatrie (N) - 44 HP, 25 Str, 18 Skl, 20 Spd, 15 Lck, 24 Def, 11 Res

Gatrie (T) - 44 HP, 27 Str, 20 Skl, 22 Spd, 15 Lck, 26 Def, 11 Res

Boyd (T) has no leads over Gatrie (N) until Gatrie starts capping stats. And obviously Gatrie dominates in the durability department throughout, making him an excellent rescue-drop candidate. Gatrie (T), who is adjacent to Gatrie (N), has further leads over Boyd (T) (most meaningfully in Spd). While Gatrie (T) hits his caps even sooner, his stronger start is undeniable.

On the topic of Boyd (T) not having any doubling problems, that is a falsehood. He has 1 less Spd than Titania at base, who is generally considered to need a Speedwings to consistently double. It is the same story with Boyd (T): he needs a Speedwings (which he makes great use of, no debate). Boyd gains levels faster than Titania, but she has the slightly higher base Spd and slightly higher growth, making their Spd concerns very similar until promotion (helps Titania before Boyd) and caps (benefits Boyd) come into play.

Now maybe Boyd (T)'s +1 mov and part 4 advantages outweigh Gatrie's stronger start and durability leads, but it is hardly an obvious conclusion, especially when Gatrie (T) is considered.

[Fenrir]

Oh? The only thing Boyd (T) has over Gatrie is +1 mov and better endgame potential (and maybe 4-4, whenever Boyd can exceed Gatrie's caps). Meanwhile, Gatrie kicks his ass throughout Part 3. Gatrie does really want either the 3-3 or 3-6 (through 3-7) Master Crowns to get around his poor caps, but we are rewarded by excellent performance for the rest of Part 3. Let's take a look at their starting stats:

Boyd (T) - 50 HP, 24 Str, 22 Skl, 20 Spd, 13 Lck, 15 Def, 8 Res

Gatrie (N) - 44 HP, 25 Str, 18 Skl, 20 Spd, 15 Lck, 24 Def, 11 Res

Gatrie (T) - 44 HP, 27 Str, 20 Skl, 22 Spd, 15 Lck, 26 Def, 11 Res

Boyd (T) has no leads over Gatrie (N) until Gatrie starts capping stats. And obviously Gatrie dominates in the durability department throughout, making him an excellent rescue-drop candidate. Gatrie (T), who is adjacent to Gatrie (N), has further leads over Boyd (T) (most meaningfully in Spd). While Gatrie (T) hits his caps even sooner, his stronger start is undeniable.

On the topic of Boyd (T) not having any doubling problems, that is a falsehood. He has 1 less Spd than Titania at base, who is generally considered to need a Speedwings to consistently double. It is the same story with Boyd (T): he needs a Speedwings (which he makes great use of, no debate). Boyd gains levels faster than Titania, but she has the slightly higher base Spd and slightly higher growth, making their Spd concerns very similar until promotion (helps Titania before Boyd) and caps (benefits Boyd) come into play.

Now maybe Boyd (T)'s +1 mov and part 4 advantages outweigh Gatrie's stronger start and durability leads, but it is hardly an obvious conclusion, especially when Gatrie (T) is considered.

GATRIE(T) ISN'T IN THE COMPARISON GODDAMN!

So that +4 skill and +6 HP aren't stat leads? & Boyd may not double, but don't even pretend like Gatrie doesn't have problems. 23speed is bad starting at 3-8. His only shot at being useful on 3-4 is being rescue dropped, which i thought Ike was the better candidate for. 3-5 you can almost solo with Haar.

I fail to see any stages Gatrie beats Boyd on.

& nobody try to make a celerity argument for his movement...

[Lord Raven]

but if you use celerity gatrie will have more move!!!!

[Fenrir]

but if you use celerity gatrie will have more move!!!!

Yes he will, but i see no good reason to give it to him. Haar could use it. Boyd could use it if we're just giving it out for the hell of it.

[Zanarkin]

Oh? The only thing Boyd (T) has over Gatrie is +1 mov and better endgame potential (and maybe 4-4, whenever Boyd can exceed Gatrie's caps). Meanwhile, Gatrie kicks his ass throughout Part 3. Gatrie does really want either the 3-3 or 3-6 (through 3-7) Master Crowns to get around his poor caps, but we are rewarded by excellent performance for the rest of Part 3. Let's take a look at their starting stats:

Boyd (T) - 50 HP, 24 Str, 22 Skl, 20 Spd, 13 Lck, 15 Def, 8 Res

Gatrie (N) - 44 HP, 25 Str, 18 Skl, 20 Spd, 15 Lck, 24 Def, 11 Res

Gatrie (T) - 44 HP, 27 Str, 20 Skl, 22 Spd, 15 Lck, 26 Def, 11 Res

I was arguing against Gatrie (N). Guess i should have mentioned that. Gatrie N has excellent perfomance that becomes Average at best in Part 4.

Boyd (T) has no leads over Gatrie (N) until Gatrie starts capping stats. And obviously Gatrie dominates in the durability department throughout, making him an excellent rescue-drop candidate.

Boyd T however grows faster, his speed grows quickly as well, and it has a good chance to grow with BEXP.

On the topic of Boyd (T) not having any doubling problems, that is a falsehood. He has 1 less Spd than Titania at base, who is generally considered to need a Speedwings to consistently double. It is the same story with Boyd (T): he needs a Speedwings (which he makes great use of, no debate).

I meant as in growing his speed, which should grow rather quickly with 45%. I don't really understand what Titania has to do in any of this though...

Now maybe Boyd (T)'s +1 mov and part 4 advantages outweigh Gatrie's stronger start and durability leads, but it is hardly an obvious conclusion, especially when Gatrie (T) is considered.

Again i was speaking more about Gatrie (N). Boyd has more of an adavntage against Gatrie (N). He does not need a crown to be useful. He grows faster. Ends up having more damage output with Hand axes and is more of a help come late part 3. Part 4 and endgame is definately Boyd's as you have stated.

but if you use celerity gatrie will have more move!!!!

Give it to Boyd and we have another horse.

Edited July 20, 2011 by Jhen Mohran

[aku chi]

GATRIE(T) ISN'T IN THE COMPARISON GODDAMN!

Gatrie (T) is currently merged with Gatrie (N), so unless you're suggesting splitting them and putting Boyd (T) between them, Gatrie (T) is relevant...

So that +4 skill and +6 HP aren't stat leads?

That +4 skill is almost entirely offset by Gatrie's superior Lck and lances having higher hit (if he needs it, he can use lances). Because the 1-2 range Axes actually have better accuracy than their Lance counterparts for some reason, Boyd does have a small lead there. The +6 HP doesn't even come close to offsetting Gatrie's huge Def lead and noticeable Res lead.

Boyd may not double, but don't even pretend like Gatrie doesn't have problems. 23speed is bad starting at 3-8.

It's a good thing that we have had 2 opportunities to crown Gatrie at this point. 25 Spd looks a lot better, no?

His only shot at being useful on 3-4 is being rescue dropped, which i thought Ike was the better candidate for. 3-5 you can almost solo with Haar.

I fail to see any stages Gatrie beats Boyd on.

I'm aware that Haar and Ike are better than Gatrie. The present comparison is Boyd (T) vs Gatrie. If you're looking for chapters where Gatrie is more valuable than Boyd (T), you don't have to look far: 3-1 will suffice.

Gatrie has excellent perfomance that becomes Average at best in Part 4.

Gatrie is still very good in part 4 before endgame, arguably as good as Boyd (T).

Boyd T however grows faster, his speed grows quickly as well, and it has a good chance to grow with BEXP.

On the contrary, Gatrie has the generally superior growths:

Str: Boyd - 0.65, Gatrie - 0.6

Spd: Boyd - 0.45, Gatrie - 0.6

Def: Boyd - 0.5, Gatrie - 0.6

I meant as in growing his speed, which should grow rather quickly with 45%. I don't really understand what Titania has to do in any of this though...

Clearly, if Titania, with superior base Spd and Spd growth, requires a Speedwings to double most enemies, so will Boyd (T).

Ends up having more damage output with Hand axes and is more of a help come late part 3.

I'm not so sure about this. I guess it depends on Gatrie's crown timing.

[Fenrir]

Gatrie (T) is currently merged with Gatrie (N), so unless you're suggesting splitting them and putting Boyd (T) between them, Gatrie (T) is relevant...

That +4 skill is almost entirely offset by Gatrie's superior Lck and lances having higher hit (if he needs it, he can use lances). Because the 1-2 range Axes actually have better accuracy than their Lance counterparts for some reason, Boyd does have a small lead there. The +6 HP doesn't even come close to offsetting Gatrie's huge Def lead and noticeable Res lead.

It's a good thing that we have had 2 opportunities to crown Gatrie at this point. 25 Spd looks a lot better, no?

I'm aware that Haar and Ike are better than Gatrie. The present comparison is Boyd (T) vs Gatrie. If you're looking for chapters where Gatrie is more valuable than Boyd (T), you don't have to look far: 3-1 will suffice.

Gatrie is still very good in part 4 before endgame, arguably as good as Boyd (T).

On the contrary, Gatrie has the generally superior growths:

Str: Boyd - 0.65, Gatrie - 0.6

Spd: Boyd - 0.45, Gatrie - 0.6

Def: Boyd - 0.5, Gatrie - 0.6

Clearly, if Titania, with superior base Spd and Spd growth, requires a Speedwings to double most enemies, so will Boyd (T).

I'm not so sure about this. I guess it depends on Gatrie's crown timing.

(t) would have been implyed.

the skill makes their hits comparable, its not useless. the HP does actually come close, he's 3 behind in overall durability. and 3 ahead when it comes to mages.

Couldn't we give the second crown to shinnon?

3-1 isn't much better, but gatrie does have a slight edge. I'll match that with 2 P4 stages and endgame. any other examples?

His growths don't mean shit with horrible caps. Gatrie has better growths, but boyd has more room to grow. Also, aren't there more than 3 skills? Boyds lolHP rapes gatries too.

Yes, there is no argument that boyd is better than titan lol.

Gatrie gets his crown earliest at 3-8, by then Boyd is looking pretty good too.

[Anouleth]

Oh? The only thing Boyd (T) has over Gatrie is +1 mov and better endgame potential (and maybe 4-4, whenever Boyd can exceed Gatrie's caps). Meanwhile, Gatrie kicks his ass throughout Part 3. Gatrie does really want either the 3-3 or 3-6 (through 3-7) Master Crowns to get around his poor caps, but we are rewarded by excellent performance for the rest of Part 3.

In the same way, Boyd does really want a Speedwing to get around his mediocre speed base, but we are rewarded by excellent performance for the rest of Part 3 and 4 on faster legs. Boyd will have a Part 4 speed lead as well, which is important since Gatrie needs to be level 15/6 in order to double in 4-1 (which is in the territory of "never going to happen").

[aku chi]

the HP does actually come close, he's 3 behind in overall durability. and 3 ahead when it comes to mages.

It doesn't work like that unless Boyd or Gatrie are at risk of being OHKO (Hint: they aren't.). While Boyd's HP lead provides similar (but generally inferior) durability against mages, Gatrie's physical durability is leagues above Boyd's. Forever. This is most important early on, where Boyd is at serious risk of being 3 or 4HKO and Gatrie is nigh invincible. Boyd's durability does become solid post-promotion, I'll grant.

Couldn't we give the second crown to shinnon?

We could, but Shinon would generally prefer to Bexp slow-play for Str. IMO, Oscar (T) is probably one of the better early crown candidates.

3-1 isn't much better, but gatrie does have a slight edge. I'll match that with 2 P4 stages and endgame. any other examples?

I'm not terribly familiar with RD's chapters, so I'll defer a chapter-by-chapter analysis to someone else. But I'm not convinced that Boyd (T) is better than Gatrie in 4-1 (the most likely destination, I reckon).

His growths don't mean shit with horrible caps. Gatrie has better growths, but boyd has more room to grow. Also, aren't there more than 3 skills? Boyds lolHP rapes gatries too.

- Boyd loses durability to Gatrie forever, despite his HP leads. But Boyd is serviceably durable post-promotion, so this isn't a big win for Gatrie later on.

- Res, Skl, Lck, and particularly Mag aren't very important, but Boyd's growths don't exceed Gatrie's with the exception of Lck (by .10).

- Gatrie's tier 2 caps are overcome with an early Master Seal (which he is a good candidate for). Gatrie's tier 3 caps aren't relevant until 4-4 at the earliest. Let's examine when Boyd (T) can exceed Gatrie's tier 3 Str and Spd caps:

Str: 20/8

Spd: 20/5 with a Speedwings, 20/10 without.

So, a 20/5 Boyd (T) with Speedwings will be approximately offensively equivalent to a 14/10 Gatrie. I reiterate: Boyd (T) is unlikely to see offensive advantages over Gatrie until 4-4, at the earliest.

Gatrie gets his crown earliest at 3-8, by then Boyd is looking pretty good too.

Gatrie gets his crown, at earliest, in 3-4. But he isn't crippled if he has to wait until 3-8 for a crown. And Gatrie's promotion gives him a boost that Boyd (T) can't catch up with until he promotes himself. Consider a 3-8 Crown scenario:

Boyd (T) - Level 15, Speedwings

53 HP, 27.9 Str, 24.7 Skl, 24.7 Spd, 15.4 Lck, 18 Def, 8.6 Res

Gatrie - Level 15/1

49 HP, 29 Str, 22.25 Skl, 25 Spd, 16.5 Lck, 29 Def, 16.75 Res

A benefit to Gatrie taking a crown in 3-8 is that we don't have to give him any Bexp or kill favoritism. 5 levels in 7 chapters is pretty trivial.

In the same way, Boyd does really want a Speedwing to get around his mediocre speed base, but we are rewarded by excellent performance for the rest of Part 3 and 4 on faster legs. Boyd will have a Part 4 speed lead as well, which is important since Gatrie needs to be level 15/6 in order to double in 4-1 (which is in the territory of "never going to happen").

I don't see Gatrie having any problem reaching 14/7 by 4-1 with a crown in 3-4. He has 7 chapters to gain 6 levels (at a rather slow rate, I'll grant). Reaching 15/6 by 4-1 with a crown in 3-8 does seem more difficult (5 levels in 4 chapters). But is a 20/1 Boyd in 4-1 that much more likely without Bexp (13 levels in 11 chapters, granted, at a faster rate)?

Edited July 20, 2011 by aku chi

[Florete]

Gatrie (T) is currently merged with Gatrie (N), so unless you're suggesting splitting them and putting Boyd (T) between them, Gatrie (T) is relevant...

The only reason for the merge is because there's no one to put between them. If it's proven that Boyd (T) is > Gatrie but not Gatrie (T), the split will happen.