OMG it's a tier list

[Colonel M]

I meant, aside from Sages, I don't know many 2 range enemies that start near Mordy that aren't... Killed.

[Anouleth]

Well, I think that Kysha should definitely be higher. Maybe over Ilyana? Ilyana's chip is pretty underwhelming even in the DB chapters and her GM chapters are not worth talking about. Kysha takes resources (primarily BEXP but possibly the Energy Drop) but can provide some contributions.

That is, unless people think that Kysha just isn't worth it. I don't think that training Kysha is so inefficient that it's not worthy of consideration by the tier list, personally. But I'd like to see what other people think?

So uh, any response to this?

[Zanarkin]

Personally i think he should just stay where he is. I find the effort that one must put on him for a mediocre performance just not worth it...I mean IIRC we are talking about actually giving hims stuff and such but even with them Kyza just isn't very worth it really. And to go above Illyana, thats a rather lot of people you are going over really all of which can have their very good merits and should be looked at before even considering such a jump...

[grandjackal]

Personally i think he should just stay where he is. I find the effort that one must put on him for a mediocre performance just not worth it...I mean IIRC we are talking about actually giving hims stuff and such but even with them Kyza just isn't very worth it really. And to go above Illyana, thats a rather lot of people you are going over really all of which can have their very good merits and should be looked at before even considering such a jump...

Slapping Resolve on him, and we have one of the few units capable of ORKOing Swordmasters while still killing Mages outside of Resolve state, and in Resolve state he does substantial damage to everything else, all with generally fantastic avoid. It took duct tape, but everyone above him is either an inferior version of him at that point, have like 0 time to contribute much of anything, or are general not actually all that great (like Danved).

I gave him A skill, and he became good. I'd say at lowest he should be below or above Lethe. At best, above or below Illyana.

[incognit0]

Haar should have his own tier. Seriously, even with transfers, Ike can't touch him. Haar can just do things that Ike will never be able to challenge. I've played with transfers on Ike; it makes him better than he is. But Haar is already above him not due to their combat, but due to Haar's flight and axe usage. Ike is good but not worthy of being in the same tier as Haar; an analogous situation would be Metaknight's position on top of the Brawl tier list.

[Anouleth]

And to go above Illyana, thats a rather lot of people you are going over really all of which can have their very good merits and should be looked at before even considering such a jump...

Most of the people in the lower tiers do very little. Kysha is performing pretty adequately over late Part 3 and Part 4, on the other hand, consistently 2RKOing and sometimes ORKOing, not dying, having great movement. I mean, what the hell does Ilyana do? Some early Part 1 chipping. Colour me unimpressed.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Anouleth

[Zanarkin]

Most of the people in the lower tiers do very little. Kysha is performing pretty adequately over late Part 3 and Part 4, on the other hand, consistently 2RKOing and sometimes ORKOing, not dying, having great movement. I mean, what the hell does Ilyana do? Some early Part 1 chipping. Colour me unimpressed.

Yes i get it, but if ilyana's chip isn't as useful why is she above ena or vika? (I mention vika because 1-8 and 1-E utility).

[incognit0]

Come to think of it, why is Leonardo over Ilyana? There isn't a good chipping chapter till 1-4 maybe, and Ilyana is far better than him there. I don't see what he has going for him at all.

[Anouleth]

Come to think of it, why is Leonardo over Ilyana? There isn't a good chipping chapter till 1-4 maybe, and Ilyana is far better than him there. I don't see what he has going for him at all.

That chipping in those chapters before 1-4. I'm not really sure how much it helps in 1-1 and 1-2, but it's something.

In addition, he can use a 3-13 Ballista and OHKO 3-12 Falcoknights. Those are both useful tasks.

[grandjackal]

Yes i get it, but if ilyana's chip isn't as useful why is she above ena or vika? (I mention vika because 1-8 and 1-E utility).

Cause Illyana to a point is sort of necessary at points like 1-4 and 1-5, a reason why I'm rather hesitant to have Kyza go above her.

Come to think of it, why is Leonardo over Ilyana? There isn't a good chipping chapter till 1-4 maybe, and Ilyana is far better than him there. I don't see what he has going for him at all.

Something about Lughnasahd and being able to kill untransformed laguz for free in part 3 along with his forced utility, it's a bit blurry to me...Been a while.

[Anouleth]

I doubt she's really necessary in 1-5. It's a defend chapter, after all. She helps with the mess at the beginning, I guess.

And to be honest, I think that Kysha being "okay" over 7 chapters is better than Ilyana being "okay but we don't have anyone better" in 1 chapter.

[Zanarkin]

Lower Middle (16) (T-1)

Brom (N/T - HP, Str, Skl, Spd, Def)

Geoffrey (N/T - Spd)

Lucia (N/T)

Rolf

Ilyana (T - Mag, Skl, Res)

Leonardo

Nealuchi

Nasir

Ilyana

Ena

Sigrun

Makalov

Volke (N/T - Str, Skl, Spd)

Stefan (N/T - Str, Skl, Spd)

Renning

Danved (N/T - Str)

Vika

Low (7) (T-1)

Lethe (N/T)

Gareth

Sanaki

Bastian (N/T - Str)

Lehran

Bolded, its people i have trouble with when considering Kyza above ilyana.

Ilyana, I'm biased towards her :P

Sgrun and makalov, both could definately be better than kyza i beleive, just give them a similar treatment.

Lethe, because i'm PEMNING yes i know, won't get me anywhere but just felt like saying it. I find lethe so much easier to use than kyza.

Might be others... except i'm not to sure on their impact...

[Anouleth]

I really wonder what kind of treatment you'd have to give Makalov to put him on par with Kysha after you BEXP/Blossom him to 26AS. Makalov doesn't have 26AS until he promotes.

[Zanarkin]

Kyza needs 7600 BEXP IIRC like someone calculated to do that though. Kyza isn't the only unit around, how realistic is it that he'll be getting most BEXP?

[incognit0]

One thing that is still hard to take is Jill (T) below the Hawks. They are locked to 1-range, don't have a turn 1 PP or EP (except in part 4; you only have so many stones), and come on a team that is already comparatively loaded. With transfers, Jill goes over a lot of thresholds for doubling and has an easier time 1RKOing. Give Jill all the stat boosters and she can solo part 3 essentially (that's what I did in my PT) and is also incredible on Micaiah's route. The thing that is holding Jill (N) back, the slow start, doesn't exist for Jill (T); with a seal and the stat boosters, Jill can actually take on the west in 1-6-1 with some minor help from Sothe. No Tauroneo drop. With that kind of start and considering she is with the DB, I just don't see the Hawks over her. Jill uses those resources the best, and it isn't like there is too much competition except for the energy drop, but Volug does admirably without it. Nolan is simply not worth the risk of getting screwed when you have Jill (T). If he gets screwed in Str, Spd, or Def it is hard to make it up; Jill's better bases and flight help her shine.

[Anouleth]

Kyza needs 7600 BEXP IIRC like someone calculated to do that though. Kyza isn't the only unit around, how realistic is it that he'll be getting most BEXP?

As I said, that's less than half of the 17000 BEXP available. And Kyza takes the BEXP late.

It's not about being "realistic". I don't care what a "real" player does. But the opportunity cost of that BEXP isn't overwhelming. It's what, two levels for Titania or Haar? Obviously, it has a cost, but it's not a large one.

[grandjackal]

Sgrun and makalov, both could definately be better than kyza i beleive, just give them a similar treatment.

I have issues with this here. 1. After Resolve, both are not as durable as Kyza. Kyza at base has 20 Def and 27 "Resolve HP". In comparison, we have 18 HP and 17 Def on Mak and 17 HP and 20 Def on Sig. Mak also needs something the strength of a Silver Sword to match Kyza's mt. Mak also has to deal with terrain issues whenever they rear their ugly heads, such as in part 4, the most unkind of maps to paladins. Kyza has more time to contribute, and even when Mak is forced, he doesn't even need to be used to complete anything in those part 2 maps, so technically Kyza's got a track record on him as well. Mak's only real advantage is that he doesn't have gauge. Also, only 74 avoid after Resolve ain't quite cutting it. Also, Kyza could have a support built up. Yeah, how about that? Why didn't we think of that, who would like to be Kyza's best friend? I'm sure some people wouldn't mind some extra Def. Kyza gets away with this argument because he has time.

Sigrun has less health and time, but you raise an interesting issue. After Resolve, she has an astounding 100 avoid, 110 with Ike's leadership. Acc around the time she arrives is around 120s to 140s, so it would be similar avoid to Kyza earlier in part 3. However, she's 2RKOd (aside from Swordmasters), so the risk is more noticeable than with Kyza's +10 HP lead (ignoring if Kyza's gained levels by now). Hell, let's slap a crown on her, or just BEXP her up to promotion. Suddenly that's 116 avoid under Resolve along with a 37% chance to land a Stun. Flight also helps with mobility and utility, no meter....Here's my question though.

If I'mma pass Resolve off Kyza to someone else, why her over Tanith? Tanith has 2 more Str and Earth affinity vs 7 avoid.

Lethe, because i'm PEMNING yes i know, won't get me anywhere but just felt like saying it. I find lethe so much easier to use than kyza.

Well to me, it just seems that Kyza's a better version of Lethe.

[incognit0]

As I said, that's less than half of the 17000 BEXP available. And Kyza takes the BEXP late.

It's not about being "realistic". I don't care what a "real" player does. But the opportunity cost of that BEXP isn't overwhelming. It's what, two levels for Titania or Haar? Obviously, it has a cost, but it's not a large one.

Titania and Haar aren't getting BEXP from 0 to 100. It is wasteful to BEXP from 0 to 100 unless you are doing it all on one unit; I think you are underestimating the value of the BEXP. Topping off several levels at .70 and higher is more realistic. Edited October 6, 2011 by incognit0

[Anouleth]

Jesus christ on a pogo stick, that has to be the stupidest post I've ever seen from you. Resolve on Sigrun. Seriously. Just because you noticed she hits 100 avoid with it on, when even the anointed king of shitty speed and luck, Soren, can reach 100 avoid with Resolve.

If I'mma pass Resolve off Kyza to someone else, why her over Tanith? Tanith has 2 more Str and Earth affinity vs 7 avoid.

What the hell does Tanith have to do with anything? When did anyone mention Tanith? The argument that you are clumsily trying to address is that Sigrun is better than Kysha. To the best of my knowledge, neither of these characters are called Tanith. This argument is already going on enough pointless tangents, between Mordecai and Ilyana without dragging yet another character into it so you can slap Resolve on yet another unwitting scrub and jerk it to a high avoid score.

Titania and Haar aren't getting BEXP from 0 to 100. It is wasteful to BEXP from 0 to 100 unless you are doing it all on one unit; I think you are underestimating the value of the BEXP. Topping off several levels at .70 and higher is more realistic.

Right, and you have 10,000 BEXP over chapters 3-1 to 3-8 with which to slowplay and leave room for Kysha to take 7k.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Anouleth

[Dark Sage]

Sigrun has less health and time, but you raise an interesting issue. After Resolve, she has an astounding 100 avoid, 110 with Ike's leadership. Acc around the time she arrives is around 120s to 140s, so it would be similar avoid to Kyza earlier in part 3. However, she's 2RKOd (aside from Swordmasters), so the risk is more noticeable than with Kyza's +10 HP lead (ignoring if Kyza's gained levels by now). Hell, let's slap a crown on her, or just BEXP her up to promotion. Suddenly that's 116 avoid under Resolve along with a 37% chance to land a Stun. Flight also helps with mobility and utility, no meter....Here's my question though.

If I'mma pass Resolve off Kyza to someone else, why her over Tanith? Tanith has 2 more Str and Earth affinity vs 7 avoid.

Wait a second.

You go into a diatribe which hypes up how Sigrun is oh so good with Resolve, and then you go "we should give it to Tanith instead lol!" This is ignoring that Tanith isn't likely to be in play, giving Resolve to Sigrun is idiotic in the first place, and I don't see the point in hyping something up only to suddenly jerk it down.

I think some brain cells died.

And let's add Resolve to the words GJ is not allowed to use from now on.

[Shadow Mir]

Wait a second.

You go into a diatribe which hypes up how Sigrun is oh so good with Resolve, and then you go "we should give it to Tanith instead lol!" This is ignoring that Tanith isn't likely to be in play, giving Resolve to Sigrun is idiotic in the first place, and I don't see the point in hyping something up only to suddenly jerk it down.

I think some brain cells died.

And let's add Resolve to the words GJ is not allowed to use from now on.

Bold:

What are the rest? I think I need a reminder.

On a serious note... I woulda brought up Transfer Brom needing to be merged with Normal Brom, but that's taken care of.

[grandjackal]

Jesus christ on a pogo stick-blahblahblah

Then there raises a problem with Kya getting Resolve in the first place, something you seemed to be agreeing with me on. I only addressed Sigrun because the person I replied to had brought it up, analyzed her results, then noticed that Tanith was basically the same. I brought up Tanith to show there could be a better Resolver than Sigrun, thus keeping Sigrun in her place, IF people thought that Sigrun with Resolve had any merit at all. Clearly, none of us do, therefore eliminating Sigrun and Tanith from the argument, thus showing SlayerX's questioning of Kyza being better than Sigrun answered. It sounded like random-ass hype, but there was a method to my madness this time.

However, does this not only shine a light on Kyza getting Resolve as well? I believe Anouleth was the one that started amping on Kyza, and I know I'm the one who brought up Resolve, and that with it he could have a considerable leap in performance. Is his durability really so solid that it's less silly to give it to him? If so, then...Basically all of Anouleth's fighting points fall apart, as all we're left with is Kyza killing a dude on a ledge in 3-4, and generally being mediocre as we've always seen him, along with that Energy Drop Anouleth so badly wanted on Kyza to be silly as this 4-8 extra damage would not make a significant difference in his normal performance.

Sorry about that runaround Anouleth, but please. Just a few questions I have for ya Anouleth about that BEXP slowplaying you're suggesting. I see a bit of viability to it. At most, we top off other characters with BEXP, and a whole well of it left sitting around not doing much, and things sitting around doing nothing's no good. If we're slowplaying Kyza, how much we giving him a chapter? Basically with slowplay 'm asking you, how fast you thinking he'll be leveling on a per chapter basis? Cause the assumption with laguz tends to be that they never level. Show us some numbers and effects leveling has for him based on his leveling speed. Otherwise, this Kyza hype that actually started with YOU seems to be going nowhere.

Again, sorry for this whole runaround. You know I tend to be a lunatic who pays too much attention to numbers rather than the weight of them.

[Anouleth]

Sorry about that runaround Anouleth, but please. Just a few questions I have for ya Anouleth about that BEXP slowplaying you're suggesting. I see a bit of viability to it. At most, we top off other characters with BEXP, and a whole well of it left sitting around not doing much, and things sitting around doing nothing's no good. If we're slowplaying Kyza, how much we giving him a chapter? Basically with slowplay 'm asking you, how fast you thinking he'll be leveling on a per chapter basis? Cause the assumption with laguz tends to be that they never level. Show us some numbers and effects leveling has for him based on his leveling speed. Otherwise, this Kyza hype that actually started with YOU seems to be going nowhere.

I have already mentioned these numbers. Kysha takes 99 BEXP initially, then in the 3-7 base, he takes maybe 80EXP (since he gained some CEXP in 3-4), then you do the same in the 3-8 base. The total cost is somewhere in between 7000 and 8000 varying on how much CEXP he gets. That puts him on 26AS, also known as "fine for the rest of Part 3". 34ATK is a little bit below Ulki, so he's a reasonable canditate for a Drop: Ulki's not in urgent need because he has much more reliable Adept proc rates, but he sees more combat in general.

Now, for Kysha to have 28AS for Part 4, he needs more Blossom. Two more levels, to be accurate. That seems like a lot given how much we gave him already, but it comes after you have access to a huge amount of BEXP from the CRKs and taking that BEXP isn't so bad because it comes just before a huge windfall at the end of Part 3. Moreover, all that CEXP he gains between 3-8, 3-10, and 3-11 (a non-negligible amount) cuts the amount we need to give him. I specify doing this before Part 4 starts, because even though you can give him a Blossom level in 4-2, it means he's stuck with Blossom for the rest of the chapter, and as I've discussed Blossom is bad if you gain good CEXP as Kysha does in Part 4. Kysha almost certainly has S Strike as well; over his six Part 3 chapters, he would only need to enter combat 6 times per chapter when he doubles. That is easily manageable. So at the start of Part 4, he's sitting on 41ATK/28AS... which is pretty good, all things considered. He can go to the desert, or to 4-2 as he pleases: he can feasibly reach 30AS for 4-3. But his attack is still an issue. 41ATK doesn't 2HKO much. Sadly he's still in the position of only ORKOing Sages and Bishops reliably. A Drop fixes that to some extent but even with the Drop he's short on Halberdiers and Generals. Alternatively, you could try Adept, since his speed isn't so bad and he perpetually 3HKOes. Now that I consider it, Resolve isn't such a bad idea just to buff his proc rate with Adept. I found that I wasn't really using Resolve much myself in Part 4 and just using it as an easy durability fix for frailer units.

So really, Kysha's speed is pretty fixable with Blossom and BEXP, but his strength remains an issue. He's perpetually short of ORKOing. The question is, is that so much worse than certain low tier units? Makalov is never reliably going to 2HKO and has movement issues. He's much harder to dig out of his hole since it's just as expensive to BEXP him, you have to do it for more levels, and you can't even Blossom slowplay. Sigrun makes Kysha's strength and speed look good. She is not going to double in 4-3 full stop. Even with a max mt silver forge she struggles to match Kysha's attack. And her durability is miles behind Kysha. She also lacks the option of switching to Hawk Army.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Anouleth

[Colonel M]

What are the rest? I think I need a reminder.

from now on Grandjackal is banned from using the following words:

- meat(y)

- fuck

- mainland

- chip

- slowplay

He also forgot "valley".

[dondon151]

I like how incognit0 has been ignored.

For the record, I agree with what he says about Jill (T).