OMG it's a tier list

[Silith]

Want me to drink some Mathorangejuice on the Rolf(T) vs Shinon topic?

[aku chi]

But the point with Rolf's position was in comparison to Shinon. Having only 2 or 3 chapters worse than Shinon made it seem like a tier below him was worthwhile.

!?

Shinon just rocks Rolf (T) throughout Part 3. Shinon's Spd lead is most important. You mention Rolf with 22 AS, but that only doubles Sages and Generals (who he tinks). Even assuming a generous one level per chapter, Rolf just can't get enough Speed to double Snipers, Halberdiers, and Warriors until the very end of Part 3. Shinon is effortlessly doubling them forever. Rolf's doubling woes don't end in Part 3. Assuming we crown Rolf before Part 4 when he caps Spd, just as Shinon naturally promotes, Shinon still has the better Spd growth and so has a better chance to double the faster Warriors in 4-1 and 4-4 and an easier time reaching 34 AS before 4-E-3.

With respect to Str, Rolf starts off only slightly behind and catches up pretty quickly thanks to his excellent growth. But if we Bexp slowplay Shinon (as we should), Shinon will come very close to maxing Str in tier 2 anyway, so Rolf has no Str leads until Part 4.

And then there's durability. Unlike Rolf (T), Shinon actually has some. So he can have a decent enemy phase with crossbows. Even 12/1 Rolf has a pitiful 19 Def, lower than Shinon's base (Shinon will have 25-26 Def and more HP at this point).

Most importantly, Shinon is valuable to us in Part 3 even with 0 resources. Rolf (T) needs resources to be valuable at all (beyond 3-1). They aren't in the same ballpark.

[Shadow Mir]

Crossbows are blah for enemy phase, and I don't even want to see the "but Shinon can ORKO Sages" card played, because to be blunt, I'm not impressed. Mainly because I'm trying to think of a map where sages are much of a threat, and drawing a blank.

Edited October 10, 2011 by Metal King Slime

[Narga_Rocks]

!?

Shinon just rocks Rolf (T) throughout Part 3. Shinon's Spd lead is most important. You mention Rolf with 22 AS, but that only doubles Sages and Generals (who he tinks). Even assuming a generous one level per chapter, Rolf just can't get enough Speed to double Snipers, Halberdiers, and Warriors until the very end of Part 3. Shinon is effortlessly doubling them forever. Rolf's doubling woes don't end in Part 3. Assuming we crown Rolf before Part 4 when he caps Spd, just as Shinon naturally promotes, Shinon still has the better Spd growth and so has a better chance to double the faster Warriors in 4-1 and 4-4 and an easier time reaching 34 AS before 4-E-3.

With respect to Str, Rolf starts off only slightly behind and catches up pretty quickly thanks to his excellent growth. But if we Bexp slowplay Shinon (as we should), Shinon will come very close to maxing Str in tier 2 anyway, so Rolf has no Str leads until Part 4.

And then there's durability. Unlike Rolf (T), Shinon actually has some. So he can have a decent enemy phase with crossbows. Even 12/1 Rolf has a pitiful 19 Def, lower than Shinon's base (Shinon will have 25-26 Def and more HP at this point).

Most importantly, Shinon is valuable to us in Part 3 even with 0 resources. Rolf (T) needs resources to be valuable at all (beyond 3-1). They aren't in the same ballpark.

Okay, now try responding to the post I linked and we'll see.

[aku chi]

He starts with 19str and 21spd. By level 10, he has 25.75 str and 25 spd. At level 1 to begin, he gets to fight level 7s to 9s mostly in the first few chapters. On a hit, he gets 8 to 9 exp. On a kill, he gets 29 to 32 exp. It shouldn't take him too long to reach.

To reach what? Rolf (T) is pretty much stuck to player phase offense. Rolf (T) starts out by ORKOing nothing except Sages (against which he is borderline before 3-2). Rolf (T) takes serious damage from Sages, so it might not even be wise for him to be our Sage-killer. Concerning the enemies that Rolf cannot ORKO (everything except Sages), if we're playing intelligently, Rolf won't be the one to get the kill, because he can avoid counterattacks via 2-range. But even if we occasionally give Rolf kill favoritism for his growth, 1 level per chapter is still optimistic.

Also, he has a 56% chance of at least 24 AS by level 7. 6 levels could easily happen by chapter 3-4, at which point 24 AS is good enough for most of our doubling needs (except 2 warriors, 5 swordmasters, 1 boss).

6 levels in those 4 chapters for a unit is not realistic, especially when said unit has no enemy phase and cannot ORKO anything except Sages. Rolf will have ~23 Spd going into 3-4, which fails to double all of the Warriors, Halberdiers, and Snipers. With our level-a-chapter metric, Rolf (T) will reach 24 AS by 3-7 or 3-8. By 3-8, all of the Warriors, Halberdiers, and Snipers have at least 21 AS, so that's no help. Rolf (T) might be able to double almost half the units in 3-7. While that doesn't help us complete the game, it does help him grab a bit more Cexp.

25 AS may not happen for 3-5, since level 9 only sees a 52% chance of having 25 AS, and level 10 gives him 64% (and 25.05 on average). But 24 AS is mostly good enough again in 3-7, since there is just 1 warrior with 21 AS and 5 swordmasters and any DB units with >20 AS to start. Also, 2 swordmaster reinforcements and 3 warrior reinforcements, but by turn 7 he should easily have level 10, considering that is 9 levels in 6 and a half chapters while being rather underleveled. So now he has 41 or 42 mt with the silencer (40 or 41 with steel forge) and doubles everything Shinon does and depending on who Shinon supports, Shinon(N) may actually be missing one or two ORKOs that Rolf can pull.

Rolf (T) isn't likely to reach 25 AS until ~level 10. With out one level a chapter metric, Rolf (T) will reach that level around 3-11. To Rolf (T)'s dismay, Halberdiers and Warriors once again elude his doubling by having at least 22 AS. Rolf (T) can ORKO all of the Paladins in this chapter, so it isn't all bad.

From this point on, since we don't generally want either one of these attacked on enemy phase and Rolf's 39hp/16def is enough to keep him alive if we need to put him in danger once or twice, Rolf isn't really any worse than Shinon until Shinon promotes.

Surely you jest.

Base Rolf (T) - 32 HP, 13 Def, 9 Res

Base Shinon - 43 HP, 20 Def, 14 Res

Level 12 Rolf (T) - 41 HP, 17 Def, 11 Res

Level 20 (with Bexp) Shinon - 45 HP, 24 Def, 15-16 Res

Rolf's durability is a problem, because the only enemies he can ORKO (except the occasional Paladin) are Sages, which he must take a counter from. Rolf is 2-3HKO from Sages throughout Part 3 and faces crit from some! Shinon is 4-5HKO. Crossbow enemy phase isn't terrible, especially early in Part 3, so physical durability is far from irrelevant. Shinon's major leads in durability make him much more suitable with Crossbows than Rolf (T).

Rolf caps str and spd by level 12 (60% for spd to cap by level 12, 71% for str to cap by level 12). He has a 51% chance of having 41 hp or less and 49% chance of having 42 hp or more. Bexp basically goes into hp and skl, then def or lck. HP will cap pretty quickly at this point, as just one shot of bexp by level 16 means hp is capped. At this point, Rolf could either early crown or continue to try for some bexp levels to get skl/def/lck.

Bexping for something other than Spd or Str is undoubtedly a waste. Rolf (T) will need to be crowned anyway, we might as well do it when he caps Str and Spd (around level 12).

Also, Rolf can be at lower levels than Shinon to ORKO Generals. 51hp/31def needs 57mt to ORKO. Rolf has this at 20/5. Even if Shinon had enough bexp to go from 23.8 to 26 in tier 2, that's only 28 str and he needs 20/11 just to hit 32 str (20/10 would be 31.6, so it could happen then, too). And there are also 52hp/32def Generals that require 33 str, something Rolf hits pretty easily and Shinon needs 20/13 (20/12 is only 32.4).

Rolf (T) does have a Str advantage over Shinon in Part 4. Shinon has a much harder time getting the Atk to 2HKO non-Cover Generals in 4-E-1. On the other hand, Rolf (T) has a harder time with Spd. If Rolf (T) heads with the Greil Army, he may find Halberdiers and Warriors once again escape from his doubling. And while getting 30 AS for 4-E-1 is pretty much guaranteed, Rolf (T) has a much harder time getting 34 AS by 4-E-3 to contribute against Dheginsea (and later the Auras). Rolf (T) will need to cap Str before he can reliably Bexp for Spd. But Shinon can just as easily Bexp for Str after capping Spd, if we like. So Rolf (T) has no clear lead over Shinon even in Part 4.

Now, obviously having little enemy phase ability hurts him, just like Shinon. But Shinon is in high tier because of his ability to ORKO when others can't. Rolf can do the same job about 80% of the time Shinon can do it. If Shinon is high tier for that, then Rolf should be able to be upper mid for doing the same job just as well throughout a lot of the game (or almost as well) and not hurting us at all when he isn't.

This is our chief disagreement. Rolf (T) just doesn't have enough Speed to do what Shinon does. Unless we give him a Speedwings - but that's a huge cost.

[RNG Princess]

OK now I understand the placing of certain characters ^^'

It takes Meg many chapters of training (I think I was fair and I didn't have her solid enough until late Part 4) to become good enough while it takes a lot less for someone like Mia. I've been blinded by my fangirlism all this time QQ

Same case with Astrid using Para-blossom and BEXP and i'm sure Fiona is on the same boat

Edited October 12, 2011 by Queen_Kittylincia

[Dark Sage]

So how do people feel about Mia (N) moving below Nailah?

Nailah is deployed in 1-8 and 1-E. This is extremely useful because in 1-8, she is likely the only character who can ORKO brigands and she has very high move, so she can help out elsewhere other than the left side if necessary. In 1-E, she can help ferry the Black Knight up if she's given Pass and 1RKO's everything in sight. This is obviously a tremendous boon because other than BK, nobody can ORKO anything but mages.

She then has a great Part 4, where she ORKO's literally everything except the 4-4 and 4-E generals, where she is dependent on Savage activating. However, base Nailah has 46 skill. Since she always doubles, whenever she attacks an enemy, she has a 70.8% chance of activating Savage. Considering that Mia is also dependent on Adept/crits for anything she doesn't ORKO, this isn't really a big deal for Nailah.

Of course Mia does have an availability advantage over Nailah and she does have rather good offense, but I'm not sure if that's enough. If it is proven she shouldn't drop below Nailah, I suggest she drop below the Herons then.

[aku chi]

So how do people feel about Mia (N) moving below Nailah?

I'm open to the idea of Mia (N) moving as far down as right below Oscar (T) or Nolan, TBH.

In 1-E, she can help ferry the Black Knight up if she's given Pass and 1RKO's everything in sight. This is obviously a tremendous boon because other than BK, nobody can ORKO anything but mages.

Transformed Muarim can ORKO everything on the map except Jarod. He does need to spend most player phases eating Olivi Grass and can't ORKO everything when ferrying (like Nailah), but he's otherwise like a second Nailah in 1-E.

Of course Mia does have an availability advantage over Nailah and she does have rather good offense, but I'm not sure if that's enough. If it is proven she shouldn't drop below Nailah, I suggest she drop below the Herons then.

Mia < Reyson, in particular, makes a lot of sense to me.

Edited October 20, 2011 by aku chi

[Ether]

In 4-4 with A Ike and being shipped the VK from the desert ORKO's everything but the generals at --/20/8. She also isn't dying anytime soon with 49HP/27Def/135Avo. Between Astra and crits her proc rates should be similar to Nailah's savage against generals. Their part 4 is effectively identical. It's the same thing I said when I argued her over Nailah the first time. What is more important, Nailah's part 1, or Mia's part 3? Though, I don't know how this list operates anymore, so who knows if any of that matters anymore.

EDIT: Switching to Tempest Blade only causes her to miss two warriors, aside from that, she still keeps her ORKOs, and now does it at 2-range.

Edited October 20, 2011 by Ether

[Anouleth]

In 4-4 with A Ike and being shipped the VK from the desert ORKO's everything but the generals at --/20/8.

It's actually quite difficult to ship the VK from the desert in the course of a low turn, since not only do you have to recruit Stefan (some playthroughs won't), but you have to trade the VK to Sothe and have him pick up an item.

She also isn't dying anytime soon with 49HP/27Def/135Avo.

Seems a bit optimistic when her average is 24DEF at that level.

Between Astra and crits her proc rates should be similar to Nailah's savage against generals.

Well, they aren't.

Their part 4 is effectively identical.

Except for the bit where Nailah has more movement, and more durability, and higher proc rates, and doesn't need to be shipped the VK and be at a somewhat optimistic level to ORKO and even then Nailah ORKOes 4-1 Generals cleanly and Mia doesn't. So if you ignore that Nailah wins everywhere, then they are identical.

Nailah is deployed in 1-8 and 1-E. This is extremely useful because in 1-8, she is likely the only character who can ORKO brigands and she has very high move, so she can help out elsewhere other than the left side if necessary. In 1-E, she can help ferry the Black Knight up if she's given Pass and 1RKO's everything in sight. This is obviously a tremendous boon because other than BK, nobody can ORKO anything but mages.

Sothe ORKOes Archers, Nolan (I think) can OHKO Armours with Hammer, Tormod ORKOes with a Forge. 20/1 Jill with a Steel Forge ORKOes even Soldiers (probably too optimistic for her though), Energy Drop Volug 2HKOes non-Armours and doubles a respectable amount; some players like to give him BEXP for a speed proc, which would let him double everything but Myrms. Promoted Edward is probably the best off here: he has about 32ATK/21AS, so he ORKOes everything but Armours and Myrms, and he can 3HKO so he can always take Adept. Zihark is even better off. Both Zihark and Edward can use the Brave Sword or the Killing Edge, and Edward always has Wrath for high chances to crit with the Killing Edge.

And of course, Muarim.

Edited October 20, 2011 by Anouleth

[aku chi]

Seems a bit optimistic when her average is 24DEF at that level.

+3 Def from Vague Katti was assumed, it seems.

Except for the bit where Nailah has more movement, and more durability, and higher proc rates, and doesn't need to be shipped the VK and be at a somewhat optimistic level to ORKO and even then Nailah ORKOes 4-1 Generals cleanly and Mia doesn't. So if you ignore that Nailah wins everywhere, then they are identical.

Mia does have pretty good 1-2 range combat with a Tempest Blade which Nailah cannot match.

[Ether]

It's actually quite difficult to ship the VK from the desert in the course of a low turn, since not only do you have to recruit Stefan (some playthroughs won't), but you have to trade the VK to Sothe and have him pick up an item.

Seems a bit optimistic when her average is 24DEF at that level.

Well, they aren't.

Except for the bit where Nailah has more movement, and more durability, and higher proc rates, and doesn't need to be shipped the VK and be at a somewhat optimistic level to ORKO and even then Nailah ORKOes 4-1 Generals cleanly and Mia doesn't. So if you ignore that Nailah wins everywhere, then they are identical.

The 27 Def was with the VK's def bonus. Even with Tempest or a Silver Forge, she only misses a few enemies from the VK, so it isn't necessary, though it is the preferred weapon if you can manage to get it to her.

Even without the VK, her durability is more than sufficient. At 4-4 against Halbs, she is generally 4HKO'd, with hit rates between 3% and 9.9% true. 2 manage to 3hko at hit rates of 4.06% true.

Warriors mostly 3HKO, but only get up to 0.55% true. SM's and Snipers 4HKO with slightly more hit than Halbs. Nailah's durability may be 'better', but not to the extent that it matters. And while Nailah has a Mov advantage, Mia can attack from 1-2 range. The only wins she has is 2 Mov and better offense against a single enemy type.

[Anouleth]

+3 Def from Vague Katti was assumed, it seems.

Mia does have pretty good 1-2 range combat with a Tempest Blade which Nailah cannot match.

The Tempest Blade is likely more suitable to set up a 1-turn clear of 4-5. Certainly, that's how I prefer to use it.

[Ether]

The Tempest Blade is likely more suitable to set up a 1-turn clear of 4-5. Certainly, that's how I prefer to use it.

A Tempest Blade is also dropped by a Swordmaster in 4-4 if you don't want to use the one from 3-13. Either way, IIRC Volke can be used to kill Izuka, so both should be available anyway.

[incognit0]

The Tempest Blade is likely more suitable to set up a 1-turn clear of 4-5. Certainly, that's how I prefer to use it.

Really? You can easily 1 turn 4-5 with Elincia using Rescue and Volke. Seems like a waste of resources, especially since it is so easy to ship rescue over from 4-4. I personally rescue Titania up the ledge turn 1, rescue whoever kills the near treasure room towards the stairs turn 2, Hammerne it, and have Heather send it over for use in 4-5.

[dondon151]

Yeah, Tempest Blade is a huge point in Mia's favor. It's surprisingly really strong. Relegating it to use in 4-5 is just a waste.

Edited October 21, 2011 by dondon151

[Ercdouken]

Haar and Lyre seriously need to swap places in the tier list.

[Dark Sage]

Why is Heather near the top of Mid tier?

[Anouleth]

Why is Heather near the top of Mid tier?

Because fuck tiering Thieves.

[Dark Sage]

But this is different than in other FEs. Heather has very little use in any of her Part 3 maps since there's little worth stealing.

[Anouleth]

But this is different than in other FEs. Heather has very little use in any of her Part 3 maps since there's little worth stealing.

Energy Drop, Rescue, Master Crown.

How is that any different to Chad, or Astohl, or Cath, or Matthew, or Legault, or Colm, or any of the many thieves in FE who don't have anything to do in most of their chapters? The reality is that it's judging the value of a certain group of items, some of which may not be acquired based on the player or the phases of the moon or whatever, versus an actual character, which is never easy.

[Dark Sage]

Oh right. I forgot she could get us the Rescue staff and the Energy Drop.

I guess that's pretty useful, though I'm not sure if that should make her near the top of Mid tier. But I give up on this I guess.

[PKL]

She also gets us a Dracoshield in 2-E.

[Anouleth]

She also gets us a Dracoshield in 2-E.

He specifically mentioned her Part 3 maps. And there's also a Secret Book in 2-2 that can be stolen.

[Colonel M]

So I think after what happened in this topic, we should put Meg above Aran and Edward, or at the worst within the same tier. Whoever disagrees can suck it because I'm right and I want the arguing to stop.

More serious note: have we discussed Jill (N) moving up yet?