OMG it's a tier list

[Caliban of Sycorax]

I'm pretty sure Tibarn doesn't have a whole lot to do with clearing 4-5. I am pretty much agreeing with others here that both Jills should rise.

I'm certainly not against it. Jill(T) should rise to above Nephenee (T) and possibly just below Ulki (T) because I fail to see the contributions of those units being more valuable than Jill. She has sole claim to almost all of Part 1's resources, although with transfer data it's less necessary, and she loses the AS loss that she gets normally. I would like to see a better definition of her contributions before I say yes to Jill (N).

[aku chi]

You name me units that can use the resources she uses and can replicate what she does, and I'll concede.

Satisfactorily explain how this statement is relevant to the opportunity cost of using resources on Jill, and I'll concede that you actually understand what an opportunity cost is.

[Jill] has sole claim to almost all of Part 1's resources

What is this supposed to mean?

Edited November 16, 2011 by aku chi

[Lord Raven]

Satisfactorily explain how this statement is relevant to the opportunity cost of using resources on Jill, and I'll concede that you actually understand what an opportunity cost is.

That essentially means there is no opportunity cost to using her because you aren't losing anything important (let alone anything at all) by investing those resources into Jill. Run through every DB unit and compare how much you'd want to use the resources on them compared to how much Jill makes use of them and then you'd see exactly what he means and exactly how it's relevant to opportunity costs.

Just because everyone else doesn't have an econ minor doesn't give you the right to flaunt your knowledge of opportunity costs (however poorly implemented your logic is) to everyone and automatically assume they don't know the definition.

[dondon151]

That essentially means there is no opportunity cost

Don't say "no opportunity cost;" aku chi will almost certainly jump on this statement and use it to discredit your argument.

But anyway, if we assume that:

Jill is the first best recipient of a certain resource and gets a benefit of x utils

Nolan is the second best recipient of a certain resource and gets a benefit of y utils

x > y, so Jill's net benefit (x - y) is positive while Nolan's net benefit (y - x) is negative.

Edited November 16, 2011 by dondon151

[Anouleth]

That essentially means there is no opportunity cost to using her because you aren't losing anything important (let alone anything at all) by investing those resources into Jill.

Oh, so the Energy Drop, Dracoshield, and Seraph Robe "aren't important". They're just free! They don't do anything on Volug or Nolan.

Just because everyone else doesn't have an econ minor doesn't give you the right to flaunt your knowledge of opportunity costs (however poorly implemented your logic is) to everyone and automatically assume they don't know the definition.

You don't need an econ minor to understand the incredibly basic concept of opportunity costs. By giving the Energy Drop to Jill, you give up the possibility of giving it to Nolan or Volug. Unless you are saying that Nolan and Volug get literally no benefit out of that Drop, then there is an opportunity cost, as there is an opportunity cost associated with basically every resource in the game that more than one character can use.

[Lord Raven]

I know full fucking well what an opportunity cost is, thank you very much Anouleth. You don't need to take the absolute worst and most simplistic interpretation of every post I make.

x > y, so Jill's net benefit (x - y) is positive while Nolan's net benefit (y - x) is negative.

And to add to this, if x is quite a bit greater than y then y is almost negligible is what I am getting at. And in this case, it more or less is considering the amount of terrain she can avoid in 3-6 and 3-12, as well as random flexibility in rescuing/getting across ledges in 1-E, being able to rescue drop and once again fly in general in 1-6-1 and 1-6-2 (the absolute optimal strategies have her being the crux of rescue dropping- she is the only one who can rescue drop Tauroneo over mountain terrain and she still wants the offense to be able to kill things). Nolan's not doing much more than just a boost in offense... a boost in flexibility and offense at the same time is way better than solely a boost in offense.

Enough to make the opportunity cost negligible- ie, "essentially nothing." Essentially being the key word.

Edited November 16, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Colonel M]

Satisfactorily explain how this statement is relevant to the opportunity cost of using resources on Jill, and I'll concede that you actually understand what an opportunity cost is.

It is very relevant. Trained Jill vs. untrained Jill (or not using Jill whatsoever) has a significant impact on low turning the Dawn Brigade chapters. If I have to seriously explain this constantly and do something as elementary school as explaining opportunity cost and basic economic systems, then I don't know what exactly you're seeking here. Here's what we're going to do; first break down on what Jill does for the team UNTRAINED, THEN explain some of the opportunity costs.

First, let's review what Jill does in Parts 1 and 3 untrained:

- Jill can carry Tauroneo over in 1-6-1 over to the RHS, making the map less of a struggle.

- Jill can carry Sothe or Taur over to the boss area in 1-6-2, making this an easy 2 turn clear.

- Jill can maneuver around in 1-7 by ferrying units over to the RHS. Granted, Fiona can also do this, but her and Jill are the only two people that can accomplish this.

- Jill helps ferry units with Vika and Nailah up to clear 1-E, thus helping make the map a 10 Turn clear.

The only time Jill can be replicated is 1-8. She technically has other people sharing her roles in 1-E; however, without her on the team the player struggles to achieve a 10 Turn clear on 1-E without major issues blocking the way.

Jill can also place people, such as Burger King, in the swamp area in 3-6 and can also rescue units from the swamp that are in danger (note that Fiona can't do this and Volug doesn't really want to do it). Jill can ferry people down the cliff, such as Nolan or trained Aran, in 3-12. Then in 3-13, she can Rescue Tauroneo if he does the Daeman Card trick (since we are assuming an untrained Jill). Finally, she can help ferry units around in 4-3 in the desert.

Now, that's just untrained Jill. Notice that in Part 3, she can only be replicated once: 4-3. She technically can be replaced in 4-P, but we're assuming an untrained Jill.

Now let's assume a trained Jill. Now, she comes in possibly requiring the Seraph Robe and the Energy Drop. We could also assume the Dracoshield, but we'll get into that later. Now, her technical competition becomes one other trained unit and Volug. That's it. Unless you're going to harp sending these resources to the Greil Mercenaries, who barely needs any of these items whatsoever (Energy Drop can be found in 3-5). So, let's only assume, at the moment, that we train Nolan. Nolan likely wants just the Dracoshield and one of the Seraph Robes. Now, Volug doesn't really need a Seraph Robe whatsoever, and Jill can also want to use it. However, Nolan with the Dracoshield swallowed early has a pretty big impact on making the earlier chapters of the DB easier, and makes Nolan able to tank a few more hits when trained for 3-6 and 3-12, which are crucial since he has to clear a lot of the backlog. Volug and Jill are likely the only candidates, and the biggest problem is that Volug is a little gimped in Part 4 due to the lack of 2 range and needing to reach Level 30 for a mastery skill. There's also the debate on if he can even get a support built up, since he's often doing things solo. Volug needs to level up 15 times to get the mastery, and then he needs to obtain a certain amount of attacks and kills to get just S Strike, which impends an "opportunity cost" on experience alone, yet we don't see everyone jumping the gun on that. To get SS Strike is even harder for Volug unless he swallows both the Energy Drop and Dracoshield, and that also implies to your simple logic of "opportunity cost".

Why am I explaining this? Because every unit has an opportunity cost. The only "exception", which is debatable to some people such as smash_fanatic and yourself, is likely the best candidate(s). A trained Jill (N), even though it costs some extremes perhaps, yields more positive results in reducing turncount than not using Jill in the team. This is why I kind of liked the idea that Reikken / CATS / GreatEclipse introduced, but of course it was sludged with other useless trash that was debated back in like 2006. Sheesh, people need to get with the times sometimes even if it was a "troll" idea.

Trained Jill likely needs BEXP just like every other trained unit, Seraph Robe, and Energy Drop. Now, Nolan definitely doesn't need two Seraph Robes and I already explained that Volug really doesn't need it either. So of course you're going to ask me to "prove it". So in 3-6, Volug has 56 HP | 18 Def with a Seraph Robe. Now, first Volug is at a 2 turn disadvantage because he has to use Olivi Grass to recover himself. This is also true for 3-12 and 3-13, and 3-13 is important to clear as quickly as possible or you either get gangraped or swarmed by Ikey-poo. The strongest Cats do 13 damage alone, which is like a 4HKO before the Robe and becomes a 5HKO. Then, 41 Atk Tigers 3HKO him either way. Killing Volug would have to take the two strongest Cats and the 41 Atk Tiger before the Seraph Robe, and that only applies if he isn't standing on a Thicket, which allows him to survive that with 3 HP and heal back to nearly-full-health with a Concoction. A Strike Volug doesn't ORKO the strongest of Cats, and obviously it takes two rounds to KO a Tiger. Now, the next issue is that you're going to pull the "now what happens if Volug is about to die?" Well, he would be at death anyway with the Seraph Robe most of the time, and positioned correctly Volug likely only has a dicey (or two) situations. AND, don't forget that you can also turn your allies on just to have the Bishop heal Volug, though the next turn Micaiah and Laura can cover that with Physic (or Mend) while Nolan swallows the Concoction instead.

In other words, Seraph Robe on Volug doesn't really make him any more flexible than what he is. He likely wants the Dracoshield, but that's to fight against Nolan anyway.

So next we have the Energy Drop. I don't think I really need to explain that Nolan really doesn't want the Energy Drop. It has no impact on his 3-6 since he's taking Beastfoe, and in the earlier Part 1 maps it might only teeter a 3HKO to a 2HKO, but it's rare anyway since Nolan isn't helping a whole hell of a lot after 1-6-1 aside from 1-8. 29 Atk vs. 31 Atk for Nolan in 1-8. It only affects one Bandit situation, and that's a rare 17 Def Bandit. Don't bother with the Mages being OHKOed, since IIRC they're out of reach from him anyway. Volug is likely the only other candidate that I can think of who really wants it. It is a difference of having 40 Atk and 36 for S Strike. Well in 3-6, 36 Atk still 2HKOes some of the Cats, but it does help 2HKO some of the tougher Cats. Of course, the other solution is that Volug gains Str, which also allows him to 2HKO the toughest of Cats. It also allows him to 3HKO Tigers in 3-6 instead of 4HKOing.

Still, the next question is if we're seriously training Volug, too, because untrained Volug (and by this I mean using him similar to how I did in my playthrough) won't really yield awesome results. If Jill is being assumed with Nolan, which likely is the plan here, Volug isn't really going to "try hard" to get to S Strike. Why? It allows Volug to pass the kill EXP to Jill instead. Now, the issue is if Volug and Jill are being trained, but I can't say I really know the results here because it creates some issues such as where the most -optimal- resources go, but since you're a big person of arguing what the fuck opportunity cost is, we could go on a hayride all day on what it is.

So, I'm going to give you the tl;dr version: without Jill on the team, the Dawn Brigade suffers. A lot. Not as much as not assuming Sothe and Volug perhaps, but they're two tiers higher than her to begin with. A trained Jill can make certain situations easier, such as clearing Part 4 of Silver Army's situations and 3-13 becomes much less infuriating with Canto + Daemon Card. Then, she's more likely to hit her Spd cap, which means she can hit Endgame. Endgame Jill can take advantage of Canto and either go dent Auras or kill non-cover Auras with two Blood Tides, White Tide, and the Brave Axe, assuming 34 Str, which I guess COULD be dicey to assume. Even without it, she can take Urvan and at least take out half of the Aura's health with Blood and White Tide and 33 Str. Don't forget she can also wield Hammer, which means she helps nuke Generals in 4-E-1 while flying around.

There isn't an easy way to explain Jill, in general, because it's like explaining Sirius in FE12. Though, the only exception is that either Sirius or Minerva is almost necessary to be trained, as otherwise it makes clearing Endgame very difficult to do.

[aku chi]

Because every unit has an opportunity cost. The only "exception", which is debatable to some people such as smash_fanatic and yourself, is likely the best candidate(s).

It's not debatable. No exception exists. The opportunity cost of using the 1-2 Energy Drop on Jill is using it on Volug or Nolan (whichever is the next best option). Likewise with the 1-4 and/or Rafiel's Seraph Robe (as you point out, Volug isn't the second best candidate) and Leonardo's Dracoshield (if we choose to give it to Jill). While we're accounting opportunity costs for Jill's resources, let's not forget a Master Seal (which could go to Ilyana and Nolan), Paragon in at least 3-6 (and possibly 1-E and 3-12), a Master Crown (high demand), and any Bexp we choose to give her (if we don't give her any, Jill has an unspectacular Part 4). All of those resources could go to other units. The value of those resources when given to the next best option is the opportunity cost that Jill suffers.

BTW, the Black Knight has no real opportunity costs - he mostly cannot even be given any resources.

[Lord Raven]

All of those resources could go to other units. The value of those resources when given to the next best option is the opportunity cost that Jill suffers.

And the value of that resource given to other units is tiny. What's your point? You don't just go and counter one line in his post without making a new point.

Do *not* ignore me when I am countering you. I assure you I damn well know what I'm talking about contrary to what you believe based on the FE9 thread. Finally, Colonel M expressed the point a little poorly, but they aren't so much exceptions as what happens when the best option is actually a significantly better option than the next best. In this case, it's Jill with her resources as compared to Volug or Nolan (for example) with the same resources.

Edited November 17, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[I.M. Gei]

It's not debatable. No exception exists. The opportunity cost of using the 1-2 Energy Drop on Jill is using it on Volug or Nolan (whichever is the next best option). Likewise with the 1-4 and/or Rafiel's Seraph Robe (as you point out, Volug isn't the second best candidate) and Leonardo's Dracoshield (if we choose to give it to Jill). While we're accounting opportunity costs for Jill's resources, let's not forget a Master Seal (which could go to Ilyana and Nolan), Paragon in at least 3-6 (and possibly 1-E and 3-12), a Master Crown (high demand), and any Bexp we choose to give her (if we don't give her any, Jill has an unspectacular Part 4). All of those resources could go to other units. The value of those resources when given to the next best option is the opportunity cost that Jill suffers.

BTW, the Black Knight has no real opportunity costs - he mostly cannot even be given any resources.

Jill's use of Paragon is, by far, the most efficient of any of the DB in 3-6. Flight and Canto allow her to easily pick up kills on weakened enemies by other DB members, quickly growing in offense and durability; we have play logs where she's gained 16 levels in 3-6 alone. She can then proceed to wreck 3-12 (where her flying and Canto come in handy) and put down Ike like a rabid dog (once Crowned) for a quick clear in 3-13.

Who in the DB can even come close to this level of performance with Paragon? Pretty much every other unit has to wait for enemy laguz to come to them in 3-6; they can't Canto after attacks, so you have to be careful not to overextend them.

Edited November 17, 2011 by Black★Rock Shooter

[aku chi]

Jill's use of Paragon is, by far, the most efficient of any of the DB in 3-6.

No debate. I haven't argued to the contrary.

[Anouleth]

It is very relevant. Trained Jill vs. untrained Jill (or not using Jill whatsoever) has a significant impact on low turning the Dawn Brigade chapters. If I have to seriously explain this constantly and do something as elementary school as explaining opportunity cost and basic economic systems, then I don't know what exactly you're seeking here. Here's what we're going to do; first break down on what Jill does for the team UNTRAINED, THEN explain some of the opportunity costs.

First, let's review what Jill does in Parts 1 and 3 untrained:

- Jill can carry Tauroneo over in 1-6-1 over to the RHS, making the map less of a struggle.

That's only really applicable if you give her an early Seal, in which case you should probably disregard her long-term performance.

- Jill can maneuver around in 1-7 by ferrying units over to the RHS. Granted, Fiona can also do this, but her and Jill are the only two people that can accomplish this.

- Jill helps ferry units with Vika and Nailah up to clear 1-E, thus helping make the map a 10 Turn clear.

You mean a six turn. 10 turns is very 2007, Colonel.

Jill can also place people, such as Burger King, in the swamp area in 3-6 and can also rescue units from the swamp that are in danger (note that Fiona can't do this and Volug doesn't really want to do it). Jill can ferry people down the cliff, such as Nolan or trained Aran, in 3-12. Then in 3-13, she can Rescue Tauroneo if he does the Daeman Card trick (since we are assuming an untrained Jill). Finally, she can help ferry units around in 4-3 in the desert.

Now, that's just untrained Jill. Notice that in Part 3, she can only be replicated once: 4-3. She technically can be replaced in 4-P, but we're assuming an untrained Jill.

I doubt untrained Jill would do anything of note in 3-12 or 3-13 since those strategies you mentioned require her to expose herself to enemies. Untrained Jill (with only her promotion bonuses) gets OHKOed in 3-13 by Tigers, for instance. Cats merely double and 2HKO her.

Why am I explaining this? Because every unit has an opportunity cost. The only "exception", which is debatable to some people such as smash_fanatic and yourself, is likely the best candidate(s).

So what? Now, opportunity costs don't exist if you're the best canditate? Well fine. But while we're at it, we should probably figure out what the best canditate is for each resource so we don't waste time dealing with messy suboptimal resource distributions.

[Dark Sage]

I have a question.

What is Mia (T) doing above Sothe and Volug, let alone in Top tier?

[dondon151]

That's only really applicable if you give her an early Seal, in which case you should probably disregard her long-term performance.

I don't know. How much EXP can you actually give her when she's in tier 1 between 1-6-1 and 3-6? If she's responsible for a lot of carrying, then it's not much. I can really only think of 1-7 as a good training ground for her because you can use Fiona to carry Micaiah and Jill can deal with some enemies elsewhere. And if you give her the Energy Drop and Seraph Robe, she might be able to get by without extra tier 1 levels anyway.

Also consider that an early promoted Jill has the capacity for Paragon, which somewhat makes up for her reduced EXP gain. In exchange, it makes it easier for her to gain EXP in the first place through increased movement and slightly improved parameters.

[Colonel M]

You mean a six turn. 10 turns is very 2007, Colonel.

I got six turns. I was just too lazy to research it and took a guessed.

I doubt untrained Jill would do anything of note in 3-12 or 3-13 since those strategies you mentioned require her to expose herself to enemies. Untrained Jill (with only her promotion bonuses) gets OHKOed in 3-13 by Tigers, for instance. Cats merely double and 2HKO her.

I am not 100% sure on some of the strategies merely because I haven't had an untrained Jill; however, she can take some units from 3-12. Not all of the cliffs take up her entire 8 Mov.

So what? Now, opportunity costs don't exist if you're the best canditate? Well fine. But while we're at it, we should probably figure out what the best canditate is for each resource so we don't waste time dealing with messy suboptimal resource distributions.

*doesn't exist.

Also, that is pretty much what I have been attempting to imply, but tier lists are always a two-dimensional archaic shell of what's really happening. Yes, the best unit still has an opportunity cost that exists, as opportunity cost cannot be completely ignored; HOWEVER, this does not mean that a character can maintain a positive net result which can deter the opportunity cost. Hence, the cost is actually debatable and likely falls under something that cannot really be compared (personal preference).

Random example: Titania uses a Speedwing, which has an opportunity cost; however, she is able to do more for the team than any other units that could use the item. Therefore, it can be seen as a net profit.

Finally:

It's not debatable. No exception exists.

No debate. I haven't argued to the contrary.

Technically, you did argue the contrary, dear aku chi.

Edited November 17, 2011 by Colonel M

[I.M. Gei]

I have a question.

What is Mia (T) doing above Sothe and Volug, let alone in Top tier?

I'd assume she has higher BEXP potential and that ever-so-sweet +2 STR for earlygame over Mia (N) now, she's an even better user of Adept and the Ike support, and an offensive powerhouse for the GM chapters.

[Anouleth]

I got six turns. I was just too lazy to research it and took a guessed.

I am not 100% sure on some of the strategies merely because I haven't had an untrained Jill; however, she can take some units from 3-12. Not all of the cliffs take up her entire 8 Mov.

9 move, not 8 move. But all that needs to happen is for two enemies to attack her and she dies, basically. While the cliffs don't take up her entire movement, they take up enough that she can't canto into safety.

Not that there's really a problem with that. If she's untrained then 3-12 is really Jill's last useful chapter. Sacrificing her life in order to get Nolan into a position where he can kill things seems like a fair trade, given that her life is not really worth anything by that point.

Also, that is pretty much what I have been attempting to imply, but tier lists are always a two-dimensional archaic shell of what's really happening. Yes, the best unit still has an opportunity cost that exists, as opportunity cost cannot be completely ignored; HOWEVER, this does not mean that a character can maintain a positive net result which can deter the opportunity cost. Hence, the cost is actually debatable and likely falls under something that cannot really be compared (personal preference).

Lots of things "can't be compared". Like healers, and thieves, and Herons, and the relative merits of being very good in one chapter against being okay in many chapters, and the relative merits of being good with resources and being okay without resources, and ultimately those all come down to personal preference, but we can still take a crack at it.

Well in any case, as long as we're not getting into any optimal distribution "we will always give Jill X Y and Z and the costs don't matter" bullshit, I don't really care.

[RNG Princess]

I don't know. How much EXP can you actually give her when she's in tier 1 between 1-6-1 and 3-6? If she's responsible for a lot of carrying, then it's not much. I can really only think of 1-7 as a good training ground for her because you can use Fiona to carry Micaiah and Jill can deal with some enemies elsewhere. And if you give her the Energy Drop and Seraph Robe, she might be able to get by without extra tier 1 levels anyway.

Also consider that an early promoted Jill has the capacity for Paragon, which somewhat makes up for her reduced EXP gain. In exchange, it makes it easier for her to gain EXP in the first place through increased movement and slightly improved parameters.

dondon Just wanted to say in a current run I managed to finish 1-E in 6 turns. Jill did not miss combat for any Player phase except turn 2 (where she ferried Miccy up). Muarim, Nailah, Sothe, and Vika did all the ferrying (especially Vika, and she managed to get parity because of the chest key) the speedwing was also collected. ^^'

I can post a vid if you like.

Edited November 17, 2011 by Queen_Kittylincia

[dondon151]

Fair enough, I'll take your word for it.

[aku chi]

Technically, you did argue the contrary, dear aku chi.

When debating, it is important to actually understand your opponent's position.

What I have not argued: Jill should not be given an Energy Drop, a Seraph Robe, Paragon, a Master Seal, a Master Crown, and whatever other resources provide us with more benefits than costs.

What I have argued: Every resource Jill takes has an opportunity cost, which must be taken into account when measuring Jill's worth. When used optimally, Jill takes a lot of contested resources that have a substantial cost.

[Lord Raven]

No, they have a very small cost. Which has been shown repeatedly.

[Narga_Rocks]

What I have argued: Every resource Jill takes has an opportunity cost, which must be taken into account when measuring Jill's worth. When used optimally, Jill takes a lot of contested resources that have a substantial cost.

I think some people disagree with the word "substantial", there. And even if it is "substantial", you have to remember that the gains are phenomenal. Substantial doesn't sound so big now, eh?

[aku chi]

I think some people disagree with the word "substantial", there. And even if it is "substantial", you have to remember that the gains are phenomenal. Substantial doesn't sound so big now, eh?

But the gains (with whichever adjective you describe them) are visible. People give these resources to Jill and see all of the contributions she can make. The costs are hidden. One has to consciously consider what Volug can gain from an Energy Drop, what Nolan can gain from a Dracoshield and/or Seraph Robe, etc... It's easy to observe that Jill can contribute more in a playthrough than Zihark. It is natural to conclude from that: Jill > Zihark. But to measure Jill's true value to a playthrough, we must discount the opportunity costs of the resources given to Jill (that allow her to make more contributions than Zihark). This additional step doesn't seem to occur to some tier list denizens. But it is a crucial step with a unit like Jill (N), who needs a buffet of valuable resources to deliver her best contributions.

Edited November 17, 2011 by aku chi

[Anouleth]

The gains aren't really "phenomenal". Jill is pretty meh in 3-6 (she gains lots of levels but as killing enemies go she doesn't have much on Nolan or Volug or even Edward). She's great in 3-12. She's okay in 3-13. And of course, she's good in Part 4. That's not "phenomenal". That's nothing you couldn't get from dumping a similar quantity of resources into say, Tanith (a unit good for one chapter in Part 3 and the whole of Part 4).

And besides, why is the Energy Drop so important for her anyway? As I recall vaguely, the draw was that it let her ORKO Pegasi or something. However, it's merely +2ATK on a unit that doesn't double a whole lot in the first place, and if she's rescue-dropping in 1-6-1 she won't be fighting that much anyway.

[PKL]

Her 3-12 is more than amazing. She can beat the map in 2 turns and she can 3 turn 3-13 without boots and 2 turn it with the boots (but in an efficient playthrough I guess Haar has dibs on the boots). Her part 3 is really amazing. And then, her part 4 is awesome.