OMG it's a tier list

[Anouleth]

HELLO ALFREDO

I think Pelleas should be above Lehran. Granted, he's a pain to take to endgame, but you also have to do a lot of stuff in order for Lehran to be recruited, and even if you recruit him you have to bless a weapon for him or give him anything decent in order for him to work, and you probably didn't even count on him when choosing your endgame team, so you don't really need him; he can do some damage if you give him the correct weapon, all right, but it usually means leaving Sanaki one of your mages without a weapon. He can staff, but it isn't like Micaiah does much else in that chapter, and it's probalbe that you have another healer there too. Pelleas can at least do a couple of pot shots in his chapters with Tibarn, use thunder on the dragons on 4-E-3, and IIRC he can use staves as well upon promotion.

Lehran takes very little work to be recruited. We have to deploy BK in 1-E, but we are almost certainly going to do that anyway. Ike needs to fight the BK in 3-7, but really since it's a defend chapter we don't have anything better to do with him. I suppose that he does so little in 4-E-5 that even Pelleas' chip with Fenrir is probably better. And we are supposed to be assuming deployment now...

I'd also say Fiona over Meg, or maybe even Astrid. They both suck, but at least you can give Fiona a forge and she can eventually become the best knight possible for endgame, have the Wishblade, has earth support, and has innate Imbue and Savior.

Saviour is too good a skill to be left on someone who can't make effective use of it. Even assuming that we're always deploying Fiona, there's no chance we're going to train her because it takes her so long to get anywhere good.

Meg cannot even hope to be decent in Part 3 because her growths are terrible for her class and she's stuck with her awful caps most of the time, and she can't hope to get neither a Seal or a Crown because they are rare in the DB and she's just not worth it.

I would much rather be limited by bad caps then be limited by bad stats. Meg caps her speed at 22, true, which is a pain, but Fiona needs to be level 20/10 in order to beat 22 speed. And her speed advantage is only 2 at best (24 versus 22).

While Meg has more than her share of problems when being trained, Fiona needs a Seal far, far more. She simply has no chance of survival in Part 3 without being promoted (although even a 20/1 Fiona which requires her to gain 12 levels in two chapters will get 1-rounded by Cats), and her level situation is much worse than Meg's.

If anything she becomes decent, but between training Fiona and Meg I'd pick Fiona anytime. Ditto with Astrid, although to a lesser extent.

Neither Meg or Fiona become "decent". Maybe in the alternate universe where your worst unit can gain 12 levels in two chapters.

I think there are valid reasons to claim Fiona > Meg, because Fiona can assist in some cute rescue-dropping and laguz gauge manipulation strategies since she is one of your two mounted units. But to claim that Fiona is better "because she has better caps" is not a valid reason. Stat caps are as irrelevant to their situation as Nasir's affinity is to his.

Edward over Kieran, Kieran is useful for like, one chapter, maybe 3-9(?).

Geoffrey is not going to solo 3-9 any time soon. Their stats are quite similar; Kieran is a little bit more durable iirc, but Geoffrey has higher strength and access to the Brave Lance.

Edward has at least some use until and even after Zihark comes around (1-7 I think). I'd even argue Skrimir or Muarim due to avalability, but that's another case.

Edward's use is extremely minor in 1-6 if you're not training him. He won't even be deployed in 1-7 if not being trained.

And I'm really not speaking with strong bases here, but I think Boyd(T) should drop with his non-transfered equal. I don't think the boosted stats really save him much, or make him more useful than the characters he's above to.

Having used Boyd (T), I can tell you that he is very good, possibly even the match of Mia (not that he'll ever go above her). He has amazing strength combined with Axes and Fire affinity, which allows him to pull off ridiculous shit in the middle of Part 3 like ORKOing Generals with Hand Axes. His durability is decent, going up to "indestructible" when supported with Ike (which is fast). His only issue is his speed, but neither Haar or Titania are guaranteed to be used, so in some cases he may have access to one of the two speedwings, and any further issues can be corrected with BEXP as early as level 12 when he caps HP.

As for Boyd N, I can't really see him being in the same tier as Soren T. Boyd has pernicious leads in durability and movement which Soren can never erode and only a minor speed deficit (which doesn't get you so far when you have a low cap). Soren T can be good in late Part 3 but he really struggles in early Part 3 (before he gets his supports and his forges) and in Part 4 (where it just becomes too difficult for him to double). For example, the benchmark for doubling in 4-1 is 28AS, and it's 30AS in 4-4. In order to hit that 4-1 benchmark, Soren would need BEXP to cap his speed early, a Crown to promote early, a Wing to get up to 27AS and then three third tier levels (which are not easy to get). That's not so impossible. I've given similar resources to Boyd (T). Then 4-4 hits and Soren would need to have six or seven levels under his belt to continue to double. And he still has bad move.

Or, compare Boyd to someone who's above him, like Mordecai. Mordecai has 38ATK and 18AS. That's similar to Boyd at base level with a forged Steel Axe. So Boyd is going to win offense pretty handily. Mordecai has more durability and movement but he also needs to transform and will always lack 1-2 range while Boyd's 1-2 range is very competitive. There's other stuff, too, but I can't really say that Boyd "deserves" to be a tier below Mordecai, or in the same tier as Soren T. And he certainly doesn't deserve to be below a shitstain like Rolf (T).

[alfredo094]

Lehran takes very little work to be recruited. We have to deploy BK in 1-E, but we are almost certainly going to do that anyway. Ike needs to fight the BK in 3-7, but really since it's a defend chapter we don't have anything better to do with him. I suppose that he does so little in 4-E-5 that even Pelleas' chip with Fenrir is probably better. And we are supposed to be assuming deployment now...<br style="color: rgb(7, 55, 2); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(239, 255, 240); "><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">

Well, I know that since 3-7 is a defend chapter you could see the whole point of it to be attacking the BK with Ike, but I do think it's a bit of a problem, but I also think that that is a little irrelevant.

I do think, however, that Pelleas's chip is better than anything Lehran could do in 4-E-5. Pelleas can 2-round red dragons by himself with Fenrir significantly weaken the red dragons in 4-E-3 and he doesn't even have to come close to them. He can use thunder magic, a Bolting if you bother to have one, and I don't remember this well but I think he can use staves too. Not saying he's very good, but still that > Lehran, as cool as he is.

Saviour is too good a skill to be left on someone who can't make effective use of it. Even assuming that we're always deploying Fiona, there's no chance we're going to train her because it takes her so long to get anywhere good.

Savior isn't that good, but Fiona doesn't care how good it is because it's innate on her, she kind of like it because she has Canto (I can't talk movement here, this game hates her movement).

Neither Meg or Fiona become "decent". Maybe in the alternate universe where your worst unit can gain 12 levels in two chapters.<br style="color: rgb(7, 55, 2); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(239, 255, 240); ">

I think there are valid reasons to claim Fiona > Meg, because Fiona can assist in some cute rescue-dropping and laguz gauge manipulation strategies since she is one of your two mounted units. But to claim that Fiona is better "because she has better caps" is not a valid reason. Stat caps are as irrelevant to their situation as Nasir's affinity is to his.

With good work, I bet you that Fiona does a really good work at Part 4-Endgame. I'd say she's the best Endgame paladin (ignoring the pain that it is to get her there). She has the magic 34 speed cap which she reaches with she should reach, and she has great defence too, and has Earth support, so she should dodge a lot, and even if she was hit at 20/20/1 she has 16.5 magic, so she should heal right back up.

My argument isn't "Fiona has better caps"; that's just part of it. The point is that both do practically nothing in a normal PT, but at least Fiona can hope for a better day, while Meg is stuck with her awful caps. Fiona doesn't want a Crown anyway, it would just hurt her since her bases are so awful she needs every level she can get.

I'll grant you Boyd, though. You seem right about him, I was only assuming.

[Anouleth]

Savior isn't that good, but Fiona doesn't care how good it is because it's innate on her, she kind of like it because she has Canto (I can't talk movement here, this game hates her movement).

Maybe Fiona doesn't care, but I do, and I think that Savior would be much better on Haar. Or Titania. Or Jill. Or anyone. So no, she's not keeping it. Plus, even if she rescues someone, what is she going to do? Realise her stats are so bad she can't fight even without the penalties?

With good work, I bet you that Fiona does a really good work at Part 4-Endgame. I'd say she's the best Endgame paladin (ignoring the pain that it is to get her there).

Why should we ignore the pain that it is to get her there? I think it's very relevant that it's basically impossible to train Fiona with even the slightest nod towards efficiency.

She has the magic 34 speed cap which she reaches with she should reach, and she has great defence too, and has Earth support, so she should dodge a lot, and even if she was hit at 20/20/1 she has 16.5 magic, so she should heal right back up.

All irrelevant. Fiona will not hit 20/20/1, or 20/1, or level 10 first tier.

My argument isn't "Fiona has better caps"; that's just part of it. The point is that both do practically nothing in a normal PT, but at least Fiona can hope for a better day, while Meg is stuck with her awful caps.

And my point is that their caps and stats are both irrelevant since they're unusably bad. Both are "stuck". If Fiona had 200 in every cap, I STILL wouldn't care because her stats are so horrifically bad.

[Colonel M]

Haha, Saviour isn't "that good".

Hey Haar, Titania - how do you feel about AS / Skl loss when you're carrying someone and you can't rambo?

[alfredo094]

And my point is that their caps and stats are both irrelevant since they're unusably bad. Both are "stuck". If Fiona had 200 in every cap, I STILL wouldn't care because her stats are so horrifically bad.

I'm not debating whether Fiona is a good unit or not, I'm just saying that Fiona should be over Meg.

HELLO ALFREDO

Sorry, didn't see this. HELLO ANOULETH.

Geoffrey is not going to solo 3-9 any time soon. Their stats are quite similar; Kieran is a little bit more durable iirc, but Geoffrey has higher strength and access to the Brave Lance.

Geoffrey can do most of 3-9 by himself. You also have lots of yellow units and some blue ones to help you. Kieran may be second best on this map, but Edward is more important in Part I than Kieran is in Part II. Ditto on Part 3, where they both get 3 chapters (IIRC), but Edward gets a deployment slot and Kieran has to compete with the rest of the GMs.

Edward's use is extremely minor in 1-6 if you're not training him. He won't even be deployed in 1-7 if not being trained.

But up to that point Edward is guaranteed to be doing something, and after 2-3 Kieran doesn't do anything until 3-9 and then starts doing nothing again.

Edited May 1, 2012 by alfredo094

[Anouleth]

I'm not debating whether Fiona is a good unit or not, I'm just saying that Fiona should be over Meg.

No, you're not. You're saying that Fiona should be over Meg because her combat is potentially better. Which I don't see as a valid argument in the slightest.

[alfredo094]

No, you're not. You're saying that Fiona should be over Meg because her combat is potentially better. Which I don't see as a valid argument in the slightest.

Well, between two units who do close to nothing in a normal game, I believe the potentially better one is better, isn't it?

[Anouleth]

Well, between two units who do close to nothing in a normal game, I believe the potentially better one is better, isn't it?

Except that the two units do not actually do nothing. Even the tiny amounts of support utility that Meg and Fiona provide, whether through supports, shoving, rescue-dropping, or throwing javelins to miss deliberately, are far more important and relevant to the tier list than 2 points of speed in 4-E-5 on a character we are never ever going to train.

Or, to take another example, smash is fond of claiming that Lyre is better than Astrid when you give both of them a Speedwing and two Energy Drops (or whatever ridiculous amount of resources it was). While that might be true, it's not relevant to the tier list because we're not going to give them all that. In the same way, we are not going to train Fiona, so how good she is when trained is irrelevant. It is completely outside the scope of an efficient playthrough.

[aku chi]

Well, between two units who do close to nothing in a normal game, I believe the potentially better one is better, isn't it?

When a unit is impossible to train in an efficient playthrough, we can only consider what contributions they can make when not trained: Chip, shove, rescue/drop, and trade/swap utility, namely. Under this criteria, Fiona does potentially have a case over Meg, due to canto and the ability to rescue. Meg does have the better availability, though.

[Titamon]

Wait why is Lyre in a tier all by herself at the bottom of the list?

Is she really that much worse than the Unholy Trinity(Astrid, Meg, Fiona)?

[Gryz]

Meg blocks ledges.

Fiona manipulates Laguz gauges with Javelins.

Astrid... well, has free deployment.

I believe the logic goes something like this.

[NinjaMonkey]

Is she really that much worse than the Unholy Trinity(Astrid, Meg, Fiona)?

I thought the Unholy Trinity was Meg, Fiona and Lyre...

Astrid... well, has free deployment.

I guess that Astrid could do some chip damage in the CRK chapters, but that's all...

Edited May 7, 2012 by NinjaMonkey

[Gryz]

Oh, Astrid can also put out fires in 3-9, right? Or at least some of them. I think the houses on the upper most ledges require Marcia. Been awhile since I played Radiant Dawn.

[Lord Raven]

all deployment is free

did anyone miss this discussion

[NinjaMonkey]

If I deploy Lyre over Haar, the effectiveness of the team suffers as a result. Therefore, you could say that there is a cost of deploying one unit over another.

[Colonel M]

Lyre's issue is that she's purely a combatant before anything else. Astrid, Meg, and Fiona:

- Astrid has minor use in some areas of her CRK chapters.

- Meg at least helps a bit in the 1-5 Route and can bust a couple of walls.

- Fiona can Rescue-drop, which the only other unit that can do that really is Jill.

Lyre's issue is that she brings nothing to the table. Her Con is pitiful and her base stats combine puke and diarrhea with a hint of piss. 7 Str | 11 Spd -> 14 Str | 22 Spd is pretty poor offensively, and 47 HP | 14 Def | 16 Res is "okay" at best. Claw also has a pitiful Mt of 8, which means her Atk is... 22. Wow.

The tl;dr version is this - while in theory you can argue Lyre "better" because she can be salvaged, the major issue boils down to how stupidly inefficient it is to give Lyre stat-boosters in the first place to even be "decent".

[PKL]

Lyre is definetely awful at base. I was able to salvage her in a NM draft with blossom and BEXP, but its so stupidly inefficient :/. She does like 3 damage at base to halberdiers in 3-4 and doesnt double. WHY Intelligent Systems? WHY? I bet she tinks those same halberdiers in HM...

[Shadow Mir]

Lyre is definetely awful at base. I was able to salvage her in a NM draft with blossom and BEXP, but its so stupidly inefficient :/. She does like 3 damage at base to halberdiers in 3-4 and doesnt double. WHY Intelligent Systems? WHY? I bet she tinks those same halberdiers in HM...

And the fact she's a cat, which has to be the worst laguz class, doesn't help.

[PKL]

Yeah :/. Shes definetely deserving of the spot shes in. Hmm, why is gatrie T in the same spot as gatrie N and below boyd T? Even Boyd T has doubling issues for quite a while. Gatrie shitstomps all over him in durability and offense until boyd catches up. EDIT: And eddie > Kieran imo. Eddie is invaluable in early part 1 (good luck doing 1-P without him) while kieran is unnecessary in 2-3 and not that much help in 3-9 because geo and marcia are doing everything.

Edited May 7, 2012 by PKL

[Colonel M]

Boyd (T) nearly fixes Boyd's biggest problem (Spd). If you're willing to give Boyd a Speedwing as well, chances are the enemies are dropping like flies. He also can support with Ike for some Avoid durability, and to boot it's not really a slow support either (00 01).

[aku chi]

If I deploy Lyre over Haar, the effectiveness of the team suffers as a result. Therefore, you could say that there is a cost of deploying one unit over another.

Not on this tier list. It was decided that units would not be penalized in any way for their deployment. When we consider Lyre's position on this tier list, we are to consider what she can contribute in every chapter she is available to be deployed. We are to assume there is no cost to her deployment. There is still the appropriate cost to every other resource she hypothetically uses.

[Florete]

Lyre is definetely awful at base. I was able to salvage her in a NM draft with blossom and BEXP, but its so stupidly inefficient :/. She does like 3 damage at base to halberdiers in 3-4 and doesnt double. WHY Intelligent Systems? WHY? I bet she tinks those same halberdiers in HM...

Lyre

Oh dear. Oh dear, sweet Jesus. Intelligent Systems, what have you done?

Lyre is what every unit doesn't want to be. Lyre has absolutely nothing going for her. I daresay Lyre cannot even be fixed as a unit.

So what is it that makes Lyre so awful? Well, do you remember how bad Mist was as a combat unit with her base 22 atk? Lyre's base atk is also 22. Only Lyre doesn't have 1-2 range and hasn't gotten a chance to level or build support like Mist, so she loses to Mist in raw damage output by 3-4 points per hit. To put into perspective, in her joining map she:

7 hit kills Warriors.

13-19 hit kills Halberdiers.

6 hit kills the weaker Swordmasters.

Is 3-4 atk short of even hurting Generals.

8 hit kills Snipers.

3-4 hit kills Sages. (Luckily for her, she doubles the slow ones)

Deals 1 damage to the Dragonmasters' 40-42 HP.

And Lyre is a combat unit!

See, even an Energy Drop and a level of BEXP for Speed won't do much for her. She'll now be 5 hit killing the Warriors with a double (luckily enough), 6 hit killing the Halberdiers with a double, 4 hit killing the Swordmasters with no double, 1-2 damage to Generals....I think you get the picture. Lyre with resources is still a pile of failure.

And then there's durability. 47 HP, 14 Defense, and 16 Resistance always taking counters. Warriors, Halberdiers, and Snipers get her in 3, Swordmasters in 4, Generals in 3 again but the stronger ones leave her with 1 HP (or 2 if you gave her BEXP and she got HP) after 2 hits, Elfire Sages in 2. Yeah, she sucks on this end as well.

It does not end there. That level of BEXP I just fed her stops doubling as soon as 3-8, so she may need another for there, only now we're seeing that these BEXP levels are preventing her from getting the Strength she needs since Strength is her 5th highest growth 15% behind the 4th and only 5% above the 6th. Lyre also has her terrible Cat gauge limiting the kills she can be fed every map, she never has free deployment, none of the units joining around her want Defense or Avoid...What the hell happened here?

I can't do an accurate part 4 review because I can't imagine what level and stats would be reasonable. Are all her levels BEXP'd and getting only her higher growths? Is she being fed 15 kills per map so she can get to Rend asap? Is borderline doubling enough to get to S Strike in 6 maps? I don't know. However, given her bad growths, gauge, and lack of 2 range attacking, I cannot imagine she will be anything resembling a good unit ever without tons of attention. Worst unit in the game by far.

0/10

Lyre's position (more having her own tier than being below anyone) has been debated in the past and I mostly chalk it up to a joke. She doesn't need to be in her own tier, but she's so hilariously horrible that it really isn't inaccurate either way.

[Titamon]

Ok I see

but what does Kurthnaga do then? I can't imagine that he's better than Lyre with his inferior availability (and showing up to endgame under leveled no less!)

[Gryz]

Having more chapters doesn't mean much if the unit is a complete failure in them.

Kurth has... Night Tide. Eh, but it's at least something he can do without needing resources. Oh, and I guess he can block some 4-F-3 dragons if you're not super-blitzing the Dheg. Whee.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Gryz

[Paperblade]

If I deploy Lyre over Haar, the effectiveness of the team suffers as a result. Therefore, you could say that there is a cost of deploying one unit over another.

No sorry it's been years since we've actually used logic