OMG it's a tier list

[-Cynthia-]

Tauroneo is in a different position. You do not have to use him in 1-6, even though you almost certainly will because he's very good. You do have to use Nephenee in 2-1, not because she's good (she's a pain in the ass more than anything) but because you have no choice but to use her. Similarly, you have practically no choice but to use the Black Knight in 1-8. I don't think it would be meaningful to say these characters are good because the player is for all purposes, forced to use them.

Also, having 2 or 3 good chapters and ending up in Mid seems typical enough. Kieran is in Mid, with two good chapters, and Giffca is in Mid, with only a good Endgame performance.

Tauroneo's forced in 1-6 so you do have to deploy him. You can stuff Nephenee in a corner in 2-1 if you really want to and have her vuln herself. People don't do this though, because using Nephenee makes 2-1 faster and more reliable when used appropriately.

Yeah, Nephenee's only really good in 2-1 because of a lack of other available player units, but it seems rather arbitrary to deny her credit because of this- units are judged based on the circumstances that they're in.

[Florete]

Yeah well Interceptor is not here so tough shit huh?

I was merely commenting on how he always defended Nephenee. Geez.

Btw, you can complete 2-E in 3 turns and get everything that matters, you really don't need to spend 8-9 turns there at all. And I also love how we used to give credit to Marcia for the Speedwing Halberdier but conveniently don't now.

It's nice that she's there and can double him with transfer (and even ORKO him with the Brave Lance), but I played the game and realized 1) there are like three Snipers up there that will murder Marcia and her positioning has to be pretty precise to avoid them and 2) it's easy to position a unit like Kieran on the ground floor to force him down. I don't think we ever attributed it to her alone, so it's not like things have changed much.

[Anouleth]

Tauroneo's forced in 1-6 so you do have to deploy him. You can stuff Nephenee in a corner in 2-1 if you really want to and have her vuln herself. People don't do this though, because using Nephenee makes 2-1 faster and more reliable when used appropriately.

Don't be facetious. You know what I mean. Nephenee saves [some ridiculous number] of turns in 2-1, to the point where you are practically forced to use her, in the same way as Edward, Brom, the Black Knight and Lyn.

Yeah, Nephenee's only really good in 2-1 because of a lack of other available player units, but it seems rather arbitrary to deny her credit because of this- units are judged based on the circumstances that they're in.

No, they're not. That's why Ike doesn't get infinite credit for saving us infinite turns in 4-E-2. Yes, it is arbitrary. We do not have to follow the rules when they are leading us in an evidently stupid direction. Drafts reserve the right to "arbitrarily" declare certain units to be banned, or free. In the same way, tier lists reserve the right to arbitrarily declare that some contributions are more worthy of note than others.

Yeah well Interceptor is not here so tough shit huh?

Btw, you can complete 2-E in 3 turns and get everything that matters, you really don't need to spend 8-9 turns there at all. And I also love how we used to give credit to Marcia for the Speedwing Halberdier but conveniently don't now.

3 turns is stretching it. I wouldn't say that's reasonable without transfers on multiple units.

Why can't Heather just...walk up to him? If we're playing the map enough to actually get all this stuff, we'll probably be clearing a path to Ludveck on the way. And if we're going faster than that, there's no place to safely drop Heather down there. There are too many enemies.

It's possible to drop Heather down and kill Ludveck on the same turn. Not easy, but it saves time.

Edited November 25, 2012 by Anouleth

[aku chi]

Why can't Heather just...walk up to him? If we're playing the map enough to actually get all this stuff, we'll probably be clearing a path to Ludveck on the way. And if we're going faster than that, there's no place to safely drop Heather down there. There are too many enemies.

It's possible to drop Heather down and kill Ludveck on the same turn. Not easy, but it saves time.

Bingo. Drop Heather. Attack Ludveck. Have Leanne vigor Heather and our Ludveck-slayer. Heather steals the Dracoshield and your Ludveck-slayer ends the chapter.

You have successfully proven that Brom > Nephenee in 2-1. Cool. I never would have disagreed with that. But that doesn't mean Nephenee sucks or something. Excluding either of them will raise your turn count on the map by, like, 5 or 6 at least.

Not all turns are created equal. "Saving" a turn on a small map like 1-P or 2-1 is less valuable than saving a turn on a larger map. Using Nephenee allows one to complete 2-1 quicker and with a little more ease, but it's a contribution more akin to Micaiah in 1-P (the similarities go pretty far, now that I think on it).

Frankly, your suspicions aren't worth much to me when you're the one with the burden of proof.

I would think that anyone making a claim has a burden of proof. Your claim that every unit is needed in 2-2 is similarly absent of proof.

Your post just glosses over everything and doesn't give levels or stats until part 4.

I gave Nephenee a level of 6 entering 3-2 and a generous one level per chapter on average throughout Part 3. Nephenee cannot ORKO any unit except Sages and has only passable durability and unspectacular movement. Some of Nephenee's Part 3 chapters are lengthy (especially 3-7), but others are very short (3-2 and 3-5 especially).

Since it seems assumed 2-E is played out for at least 8-10 turns, Nephenee will get experience there...

Btw, you can complete 2-E in 3 turns and get everything that matters, you really don't need to spend 8-9 turns there at all.

There's no need to take more than 4 turns in 2-E. Nephenee, by my reckoning, will enter 3-2 approaching level 7.

She'll probably come into 3-2 at level 6 or 7. She's only a few levels away from capping Skl, Spd, and Res, allowing for good BEXP slow-playing and occasional level-pushing to get her the necessary Str and Def, and she has the time to do it.

I took Bexp-slowplay into account.

Your levels of 15/1 and 10/3 for them at part 4 are ridiculous, no one is going to do that. Master Crowns aren't common enough for that to be worth it. Furthermore, while I don't necessarily always play super "efficiently," I don't screw around, and I've never entered part 4 with any of my GM units at less than 20/1 (or sometimes 18-19/1), so this is some serious under leveling here, for both of them. Forget Paragon?

Nephenee naturally promoting before Part 4 in efficient play is what is ridiculous. Paragon is only available to Nephenee in 3-11 and 3-E. Marcia can use Paragon in 3-9, but I'm assuming that she's already tier 3 at this point, so exp growth is still slow. In my experience: Mia falls short of naturally promoting before 4-P. Mia, who is likely 3 levels higher than Nephenee in 3-2 and has better offense. I'd like to appeal to other forum denizens who have played Radiant Dawn HM efficiently: are my level estimates for Nephenee and Marcia entering Part 4 reasonable?

I'm not completely opposed to the idea of Marcia (T) > Nephenee, but I feel you're rather underrating Nephenee given all you're attributing to Marcia.

Make a case. I won't hide that I find Nephenee(N)'s Part 3 and 4 performance to be mediocre. Reasonable people can disagree on the comparative value of their Part 2 performances.

Edited November 25, 2012 by aku chi

[-Cynthia-]

Nephenee naturally promoting before Part 4 in efficient play is what is ridiculous. Paragon is only available to Nephenee in 3-11 and 3-E. Marcia can use Paragon in 3-9, but I'm assuming that she's already tier 3 at this point, so exp growth is still slow. In my experience: Mia falls short of naturally promoting before 4-P. Mia, who is likely 3 levels higher than Nephenee in 3-2 and has better offense. I'd like to appeal to other forum denizens who have played Radiant Dawn HM efficiently: are my level estimates for Nephenee and Marcia entering Part 4 reasonable?

Well it depends somewhat on BEXP distribution. It's easier to both slowplay Nephenee and give her additional BEXP after she's capped stats like Spd and Skl to increase her chances of proccing things like Str and Def. I suppose their overall levels also depend on what we do with the Part 2 BEXP.

[Florete]

Not all turns are created equal. "Saving" a turn on a small map like 1-P or 2-1 is less valuable than saving a turn on a larger map. Using Nephenee allows one to complete 2-1 quicker and with a little more ease, but it's a contribution more akin to Micaiah in 1-P (the similarities go pretty far, now that I think on it).

And I agreed with this when Anouleth pointed it out originally (well, the argument was vaguely similar). However, I do believe you originally said that Marcia's 2-P and Nephenee's 2-1 are about equal, which is still far from accurate.

I'd also like to point out that saving a single turn on a map like 2-1 might not be as valuable as single turns elsewhere, but Nephenee definitely saves more than a single turn on 2-1, something many units can't claim in any map, including Marcia.

I would think that anyone making a claim has a burden of proof. Your claim that every unit is needed in 2-2 is similarly absent of proof.

Your claim was that Marcia's 2-3 is worth more than Neph's 2-2. My (and Cynthia's, I believe) counter-claim is that this is wrong on the basis that 2-3 is still fairly easily cleared without Marcia while everyone in 2-2 has value since only Lucia can ORKO (and not even everything) and 3 of your 7 combat units are Laguz with limited Laguz Stones and Olivi Grass. Your rebuttal was "Nah, I don't think so."

And of course, you are the one advocating a change in the list, so burden of proof will generally fall on you. But I'm sure you know that.

Paragon is only available to Nephenee in 3-11 and 3-E.

It isn't unreasonable to assume the DB's Paragon gets transferred via Ilyana since they have little opportunity to use it. And of course, it wouldn't be for Nephenee alone. Even so, Paragon for just one map (3-11, for example) can do a lot if you funnel as many kills into the unit as possible.

Marcia can use Paragon in 3-9, but I'm assuming that she's already tier 3 at this point, so exp growth is still slow.

What.

Nephenee naturally promoting by part 4 is somehow ridiculous but Marcia can reach level 10 by 3-9 in Hard mode? No. If anyone is using that Master Crown, it's Geoffrey.

In my experience: Mia falls short of naturally promoting before 4-P. Mia, who is likely 3 levels higher than Nephenee in 3-2 and has better offense. I'd like to appeal to other forum denizens who have played Radiant Dawn HM efficiently: are my level estimates for Nephenee and Marcia entering Part 4 reasonable?

This is about what it will come down to. In my experience, if you don't have your non-DB units promoted or ready to promote (from 18-20) by the end of part 3, you're doing something wrong. Team too big, etc.

Make a case. I won't hide that I find Nephenee(N)'s Part 3 and 4 performance to be mediocre. Reasonable people can disagree on the comparative value of their Part 2 performances.

My responses are my case.

Also let me ask: who agrees and who disagrees with Marcia (T) > Nephenee?

Edited November 26, 2012 by Red Fox of Fire

[dondon151]

Nephenee naturally promoting by part 4 is somehow ridiculous but Marcia can reach level 10 by 3-9 in Hard mode? No. If anyone is using that Master Crown, it's Geoffrey.

L10 for marcia is just normal EXP gain with a small BEXP dump

using the master crown on geoffrey for 3-9 is useless. it doesn't save any turns whatsoever and geoffrey is bad enough to not consider using a master crown on.

[aku chi]

I do believe you originally said that Marcia's 2-P and Nephenee's 2-1 are about equal, which is still far from accurate.

If ever I said that, I have long since recanted.

It isn't unreasonable to assume the DB's Paragon gets transferred via Ilyana since they have little opportunity to use it.

Baloney. The Dawn Brigade has four chapters (1-E, 3-6, 3-12, and 3-13) to use Paragon. 3-6 and 3-12 have tons of enemies that need to be killed; maps like these don't exist with the Greil Mercenaries. Jill (N) is pretty much impossible to raise without Paragon.

Even so, Paragon for just one map (3-11, for example) can do a lot if you funnel as many kills into the unit as possible.

Except Nephenee is likely going to be left behind in 3-11 while the fliers (like Marcia) complete the chapter. The goal is to complete the game, not to funnel kills into Nephenee so that she can be slightly better than mediocre in Part 4.

Nephenee naturally promoting by part 4 is somehow ridiculous but Marcia can reach level 10 by 3-9 in Hard mode? No. If anyone is using that Master Crown, it's Geoffrey.

I guess you didn't read my post... In my argument, Nephenee and Marcia both received 2 levels of Bexp before 2-E. This put Marcia at level 10 entering 3-9. We use the 3-9 Master Crown on her because it helps us complete the chapter at least as efficiently as if we gave it to Geoffrey. But this way, the Master Crown is used on a unit we're training, instead of wasted on Geoffrey. Giving Marcia (T) the 3-9 Master Crown seems SOP for LTC aficionados.

In my experience, if you don't have your non-DB units promoted or ready to promote (from 18-20) by the end of part 3, you're doing something wrong. Team too big, etc.

Or you used a mediocre low-level unit like Nephenee, Soren, or Rolf and didn't slow down for them. (In my experience, Mia is level 18-20 come Part 4 - and I sometimes Bexp her to tier 3 if I don't have a Master Crown to spare. But Mia has a modest level lead on Nephenee in 3-2 and has an easier time getting experience due to superior offense.)

Edited November 26, 2012 by aku chi

[-Cynthia-]

Or you used a mediocre low-level unit like Nephenee, Soren, or Rolf and didn't slow down for them. (In my experience, Mia is level 18-20 come Part 4 - and I sometimes Bexp her to tier 3 if I don't have a Master Crown to spare. But Mia has a modest level lead on Nephenee in 3-2 and has an easier time getting experience due to superior offense.)

Mia shouldn't have a level lead in 3-2 if we dumped all our Part 2 BEXP on Nephenee. It may sound like favoritism, but considering we're only using one non-Haar unit from Part 2 permanently I think it's a decent allocation. You could give the BEXP to Haar I suppose, though his odds of getting Spd with BEXP levels isn't that good.

[aku chi]

Mia shouldn't have a level lead in 3-2 if we dumped all our Part 2 BEXP on Nephenee. It may sound like favoritism, but considering we're only using one non-Haar unit from Part 2 permanently I think it's a decent allocation. You could give the BEXP to Haar I suppose, though his odds of getting Spd with BEXP levels isn't that good.

Personally, I don't think that's the best use of that Bexp. But go ahead and perform another comparison where Nephenee and Marcia gain ~2 more Bexp levels in 2-E if you want; I don't think it will change much. The 2 levels of Bexp I gave Nephenee ensures that she doubles all non-Swordmaster enemies in Part 3. Additional Bexp level-ups just get her a little closer to capping Spd and Skl. And all of this Bexp still won't obviate the need for a Master Crown unless we also plan to give Nephenee an additional 3-4 levels of Bexp before Part 4. And that's a whole lot of resources to spend on a unit that is merely decent in Part 4.

[PKL]

If Nephenee can get all the P2 BEXP, then so can Marcia. And she's a much better investment. She's also worth a Crown much more than that chump Geoffrey.

[-Cynthia-]

Personally, I don't think that's the best use of that Bexp. But go ahead and perform another comparison where Nephenee and Marcia gain ~2 more Bexp levels in 2-E if you want; I don't think it will change much. The 2 levels of Bexp I gave Nephenee ensures that she doubles all non-Swordmaster enemies in Part 3. Additional Bexp level-ups just get her a little closer to capping Spd and Skl. And all of this Bexp still won't obviate the need for a Master Crown unless we also plan to give Nephenee an additional 3-4 levels of Bexp before Part 4. And that's a whole lot of resources to spend on a unit that is merely decent in Part 4.

You can also save the Part 2 BEXP until 3-11- but this also works in Nephenee's favor. Why not give Nephenee level ups through BEXP after she hits level 12 or so? She will have capped Skl,Spd, Res- making her chances to proc Str and Def much higher than normal.

One can't really do the same with Marcia. If we somehow get Marcia to level 10 by 3-9 (This seems very unlikely by the way, unless we're taking all the turns in 2-E. From my experience, you've given her about 2-3 extra levels). Marcia(T) at level 10 has no stats capped- she has to be level 14 or so to cap Spd and HP and level 18 or so to cap Skl. Although I'll agree that Master Crowning Geoffrey is unnecessary, Marcia will probably need to be given BEXP levels to even qualify for Crown usage.

Nephenee's just a lot easier to make viable for Part 4, through a lot more Exp gaining opportunities in Part 3 combined with capping stats earlier to make better use of BEXP.

This list should probably decide what route 2-E is taking though...not sure why we'd take all the turns here when we're concerned with cutting turns everywhere else.

Edited November 26, 2012 by -Cynthia-

[aku chi]

You can also save the Part 2 BEXP until 3-11- but this also works in Nephenee's favor. Why not give Nephenee level ups through BEXP after she hits level 12 or so? She will have capped Skl,Spd, Res- making her chances to proc Str and Def much higher than normal.

One can't really do the same with Marcia. If we somehow get Marcia to level 10 by 3-9 (This seems very unlikely by the way, unless we're taking all the turns in 2-E. From my experience, you've given her about 2-3 extra levels). Marcia(T) at level 10 has no stats capped- she has to be level 14 or so to cap Spd and HP and level 18 or so to cap Skl. Although I'll agree that Master Crowning Geoffrey is unnecessary, Marcia will probably need to be given BEXP levels to even qualify for Crown usage.

Nephenee's just a lot easier to make viable for Part 4, through a lot more Exp gaining opportunities in Part 3 combined with capping stats earlier to make better use of BEXP.

It's rather irksome when people critique my proposal without reading my argument. All of the following were explained in my original post:

• Marcia is stipulated to get 3 levels through Cexp and 2 through Bexp to reach level 10 by 3-9. Nephenee is given the same amount of Bexp to get her to 24 Spd before Part 3.
  
• Nephenee is Bexp-slowplayed after she reaches level 11.
  
• Still, Nephenee (N) fails to exhibit any noticable Spd or Str lead on Marcia (T) in Part 4.
  

I've made every effort to train Nephenee as intelligently as possible for this comparison. Marcia still comes out better.

This list should probably decide what route 2-E is taking though...not sure why we'd take all the turns here when we're concerned with cutting turns everywhere else.

There's no (efficient) reason to take more than 4 turns. 4 turns is enough to get the Energy Drop, Dracoshield, and Nullify. I think 1, 2, and 3-turn clears that forfeit some of these valuables should also be considered. Still, the number of turns we spend in 2-E is not critical to this comparison. Both Nephenee and Marcia benefit from extra turns of combat. While Marcia can make additional contributions if we want to get some of these valuables, I don't think those contributions are necessary to show Marcia (T) > Nephenee (N).

[-Cynthia-]

It's rather irksome when people critique my proposal without reading my argument. All of the following were explained in my original post:

• Marcia is stipulated to get 3 levels through Cexp and 2 through Bexp to reach level 10 by 3-9. Nephenee is given the same amount of Bexp to get her to 24 Spd before Part 3.
  
• Nephenee is Bexp-slowplayed after she reaches level 11.
  
• Still, Nephenee (N) fails to exhibit any noticable Spd or Str lead on Marcia (T) in Part 4.
  

I've made every effort to train Nephenee as intelligently as possible for this comparison. Marcia still comes out better.

I think you've neglected some possible key factors. For instance, 4 levels of unpromoted BEXP by the time 3-11 rolls around isn't very much, considering some members of the team likely won't be needing BEXP by this point (Titania and Haar) and some group members are probably not worth the effort for Part 4 (Oscar and Gatrie come to mind as relatively poor BEXP candidates). By BEXPing Nephenee to level 18 or 19, her strength and defense will likely increase by a few points. One cannot necessarily say the same for Marcia due to how her caps work.

Nephenee does only have small leads over your Marcia under your circumstances, but with more BEXP allotted Nephenee's Part 3 lead is more significant and her stat bonuses through Part 4 are larger. Personally, I've found that I have enough BEXP to put all of my 'permanent' beorc characters at or very close to level 20 by 3-11 with a level or two for Janaff/Ulki thrown in for good measure. Perhaps I use a smaller team than you do or something.

[aku chi]

4 levels of unpromoted BEXP by the time 3-11 rolls around isn't very much

Taking Nephenee from level 13 to level 17 with Bexp costs 14,600 Bexp. This is more than half of the maximum 28,675 Bexp we can get from all of the Greil Mercenary chapters up to this point. That is very much!

considering some members of the team likely won't be needing BEXP by this point (Titania and Haar) and some group members are probably not worth the effort for Part 4 (Oscar and Gatrie come to mind as relatively poor BEXP candidates).

Better uses of the GM Bexp than giving it to Nephenee:

Bexp-slowplay Spd for Haar.

Bexp-slowplay Spd for Titania.

Bexp-slowplay Spd for Ike.

Bexp-Blossom-slowplay Janaff.

Bexp-Blossom-slowplay Ulki.

Bexp-slowplay Str and Def for Mia.

Bexp-slowplay Str for Shinon.

Bexp-slowplay Str for Oscar (arguable).

Maybe I Bexp-slowplay more than most, but I rarely have the Bexp to spare on HM for full level-ups until 4-E.

Edited November 26, 2012 by aku chi

[Florete]

Baloney. The Dawn Brigade has four chapters (1-E, 3-6, 3-12, and 3-13) to use Paragon. 3-6 and 3-12 have tons of enemies that need to be killed; maps like these don't exist with the Greil Mercenaries. Jill (N) is pretty much impossible to raise without Paragon.

1. Laguz give a lot more exp than Beorc for kills. Even without Paragon, Jill can get a lot of levels in 3-6 and 3-13 by focusing on her (reasonable considering the others generally aren't worth it).

2. The GMs have fewer enemies but more chapters. This means more units can use the skill, each one being funneled as many kills as possible while the respective map is completed.

Except Nephenee is likely going to be left behind in 3-11 while the fliers (like Marcia) complete the chapter. The goal is to complete the game, not to funnel kills into Nephenee so that she can be slightly better than mediocre in Part 4.

Nephenee doesn't need to be on the front lines to get kills. You can complete the map while having slower units clean up leftovers or getting rid of specific problem enemies.

I guess you didn't read my post... In my argument, Nephenee and Marcia both received 2 levels of Bexp before 2-E. This put Marcia at level 10 entering 3-9. We use the 3-9 Master Crown on her because it helps us complete the chapter at least as efficiently as if we gave it to Geoffrey. But this way, the Master Crown is used on a unit we're training, instead of wasted on Geoffrey. Giving Marcia (T) the 3-9 Master Crown seems SOP for LTC aficionados.

Saying it should go to Geoffrey was stupid, I will admit. I forgot that his performance basically doesn't change. But giving it to Marcia is needlessly gimping her growth for some minor increased efficiency on one map.

Or you used a mediocre low-level unit like Nephenee, Soren, or Rolf and didn't slow down for them. (In my experience, Mia is level 18-20 come Part 4 - and I sometimes Bexp her to tier 3 if I don't have a Master Crown to spare. But Mia has a modest level lead on Nephenee in 3-2 and has an easier time getting experience due to superior offense.)

Rolf is one of the few that often doesn't quite make it (Mist being the other). Soren can often be safely promoted earlier than most due to his knack for cap-ramming (he can reasonably have all of Mag, Skl, Spd, and Res capped by ~14-15). Nephenee is easier than either because of better durability and more reliable doubling.

Better uses of the GM Bexp than giving it to Nephenee:

Bexp-slowplay Spd for Haar.

Bexp-slowplay Spd for Titania.

Bexp-slowplay Spd for Ike.

Bexp-Blossom-slowplay Janaff.

Bexp-Blossom-slowplay Ulki.

Bexp-slowplay Str and Def for Mia.

Bexp-slowplay Str for Shinon.

Bexp-slowplay Str for Oscar (arguable).

Maybe I Bexp-slowplay more than most, but I rarely have the Bexp to spare on HM for full level-ups until 4-E.

Let's see here:

Haar doesn't need much BEXP. He really just needs a Speedwing and Crown.

Titania doesn't have much slow-playing before promotion, after which she obviously won't be slowplayed. However, she, like Haar, also primarily wants a Speedwing.

Ike is a prime candidate for slow-playing.

Janaff and Ulki primarily need Strike, not levels, especially once they reach level 30 (1-2 levels away). You're better off waiting until part 4 to worry about their stats, especially in Janaff's case.

Mia and Shinon are like Ike, although Shinon doesn't have as great of a case because of his range lock.

Oscar is arguable.

So if you're actually focusing on all of those units, about half actually need to consistently consume BEXP.

This list should probably decide what route 2-E is taking though...not sure why we'd take all the turns here when we're concerned with cutting turns everywhere else.

Well, that's the problem with tiering. We don't want to do LTC because we don't like it and want our list to more accurately reflect common gameplay, but then we get a lot of "what if?"s The gist we decided on for 2-E is that a unit like Haar gets credit for being able to clear the map basically whenever he wants, but it's still played out a bit to get items and experience on multiple characters (Marcia and Nephenee included). I like to think of the play style as being not super-concerned with getting a low turn count, but always heading toward the goal and attempting not to waste time. It makes tiering difficult, but that's unavoidable when you have a vague and arbitrary standard.

[Anouleth]

I don't think it's a good idea to put Paragon on the GMs. Jill has a far greater impact on Part 3 or 4 turncount thanks to Paragon than any GM unit. It's true that Jill isn't always going to be used, but even then, it's pretty even between GMs and DB for Paragon.

[nflchamp]

I'd never suggest shipping Paragon over. It's a possibility and should be considered as a cost to DB units using it, but I'd never suggest shipping it over.

[Florete]

I don't always ship it over myself, but I'd call it mostly even regardless of whether Jill is being used or not.

[Dark Sage]

The problem with transporting Paragon over to the GMs is that the opportunity cost is too high. Let's assume you plan on raising a couple of DB units. The DB only has a limited amount of chapters to gain experience in and they really need to reach 3rd tier by Part 4 to not be total deadweight. Taking Paragon from them makes it more difficult to use them long-term. Jill in particular is practically unusable without Paragon. Furthermore, the GMs do not particularly care about getting Paragon to begin with, and you get 2 from the CRKs by 3-11. So basically transporting the Paragon to the GMs results in a net loss all around.

Its a different story if you don't plan on training DB units, but considering how high up they are, its not likely that they're not going to be used.

Edited November 27, 2012 by Tyrant Sage

[Anouleth]

The problem with transporting Paragon over to the GMs is that the opportunity cost is too high. Let's assume you plan on raising a couple of DB units. The DB only has a limited amount of chapters to gain experience in and they really need to reach 3rd tier by Part 4 to not be total deadweight. Taking Paragon from them makes it more difficult to use them long-term. Jill in particular is practically unusable without Paragon. Furthermore, the GMs do not particularly care about getting Paragon to begin with, and you get 2 from the CRKs by 3-11. So basically transporting the Paragon to the GMs results in a net loss all around.

Its a different story if you don't plan on training DB units, but considering how high up they are, its not likely that they're not going to be used.

If you choose not to train any DB units, then you're essentially throwing away all the Part 3 EXP. And you'll probably take longer to beat Part 3 DB chapters. I don't think Paragon is likely to save a single turn in GM chapters, conversely.

[Florete]

My argument doesn't really hinge on Paragon either way.

In any case, it doesn't seem a little odd to have Nephenee above Oscar. Oscar's not great by any means, but they're pretty similar aside from the horse. I don't know about putting her below Mordecai and Ranulf, though.

[aku chi]

In any case, it doesn't seem a little odd to have Nephenee above Oscar. Oscar's not great by any means, but they're pretty similar aside from the horse. I don't know about putting her below Mordecai and Ranulf, though.

I wouldn't dispute:

Oscar

Marcia (T)

Nephenee

Mordecai

Ranulf

... at least in the near term. I'm planning another argument to post once this one is resolved.

[-Cynthia-]

Speaking of units in that tier, is it possible Laura may be a bit overrated? I will admit she's quite useful in 1-2 and 1-4 where we have easy chokepoints, but from 1-6 through the rest of Part 1, putting her in a position where no enemy can attack her is often more trouble than it's worth, from my experience. In Part 3 she gets Physic access I suppose, although with her low magic she doesn't heal much with it. Perhaps it's just a playstyle difference, but I generally prefer to use Vulneraries over Laura in most circumstances- I'd say she's more similar in usefulness to say, Tauroneo than the units in Upper Mid.

[Florete]

... at least in the near term. I'm planning another argument to post once this one is resolved.

Shoot.

Speaking of units in that tier, is it possible Laura may be a bit overrated? I will admit she's quite useful in 1-2 and 1-4 where we have easy chokepoints, but from 1-6 through the rest of Part 1, putting her in a position where no enemy can attack her is often more trouble than it's worth, from my experience. In Part 3 she gets Physic access I suppose, although with her low magic she doesn't heal much with it. Perhaps it's just a playstyle difference, but I generally prefer to use Vulneraries over Laura in most circumstances- I'd say she's more similar in usefulness to say, Tauroneo than the units in Upper Mid.

Yeah, I agree. Laura probably got her position from back in the day when the game just wasn't known as well and healing felt a lot more useful, almost necessary in part 1. Since then, though, we tend to rely on her a lot less. I still don't think I'd see her lower than mid, though, since her healing isn't exactly worthless.