OMG it's a tier list

[Interceptor]

Jill does use these better, yes. But a level 6 Zihark with a 'B' Nolan has 97 avo. Level 20/1 Jill with a 'B' Volug has 78 avo. Zihark faces hit rates below 50. Jill doesn't. So a Zihark without resources > Jill without resources, and the fact that Jill has to use a 4000 gold item to be better than Zihark isn't very good in the first place.

Emphasis mine. While this is techincally true (probably), that doesn't mean in this one chapter that Zihark > Jill. Taking resources is a negative because you could have given it to someone else. However: the negative is offset by what the unit is able to do with the resource in the first place, with respect to how it helps the army overall. AKA, Mia w/Adept vs. Soren w/Adept.

Since going from 2HKO'ed to 3HKO'ed is a really big deal, and that Zihark is basically incapable of doing this at all, and that Jill actually benefits in other chapters outside of this one from those two resources (+7 HP is huge for her Part 1 durability as well), etc, I find it hard to argue that Jill's ranking with these resources is worse than it would be without them.

[Progenitus]

Jill beats them in Def though, and everyone's Avo ends up being pretty lousy so that's more important.

She's still getting 2HKO'd by tigers until ~20/11, which isn't happening in 3-6. Though she does better against cats.

You also ignored how zihark has better offense and can actually kill stuff.

[-Cynthia-]

She's still getting 2HKO'd by tigers until ~20/11, which isn't happening in 3-6. Though she does better against cats.

You also ignored how zihark has better offense and can actually kill stuff.

20/5 Jill with a Robe and a Dracoshield/Def transfer is 3HKO'd. And if you want to argue that the Dracoshield/Def transfer is unfair, she gets +2 Def from a B support with any of the Water/Light/Thunder affinity partners available. I'm actually rather surprised you're against Jill here, since you take the complete opposite side in Edward vs. Aran, saying that Aran can avoid 2HKOs with resources. But that's Aran, so of course it's different

Jill's offense is pretty good here, especially now that she has the Brave Axe. She at least 2RKOS everything, and can ORKO untransformed laguz. Zihark can't reliably ORKO ,he needs Adept/crit, and even if he does that's just another tiger/cat he lets in which puts him in a very dangerous position.

Edited June 11, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Interceptor]

But that's Aran, so of course it's different

Don't mind me, just passing through.

Jill's offense is pretty good here, especially now that she has the Brave Axe. She at least 2RKOS everything, and can ORKO untransformed laguz. Zihark can't reliably ORKO ,he needs Adept/crit, and even if he does that's just another tiger/cat he lets in which puts him in a very dangerous position.

Precisely, I couldn't agree more. Not only does Jill more or less have the Brave Axe to herself -- Nolan's content with Tarvos in order to stay 3hKO'ed -- but Zihark's offensive lead is the crit/Adept sort, something that he can ill afford with his durability. The only way to keep him from blicking things randomly and clearing space is to take away his innate skill and/or give him a joke weapon.

Even Aran, who is generally a pretty mediocre unit in Hard Mode, has a survivable chance for insta-blicks. At best he's looking at a 12% listed crit on laguz: dangerous, but he can get 3HKO'ed without great exertion, so it's managable, especially since his generally-a-bad-thing failure to double is actually an asset in this scenario. Zihark? 15% listed crit or more, just for existing, and he doubles tigers for double the critical fun. Adept is an easy 13-33% per hit, although thank Ashera for small favors that a higher chance for blicking with Adept comes with higher avoid for Z.

Honestly... Part 3 for the DB is just full of chapters that don't reward offense at all, except in those "uh-oh I'd better kill this so that it doesn't die on Enemy Phase and expose me to two attacks" sort of situations. Note that Zihark's offensive power is basically useless even in that corner scenario: he relies on doubling (read: he takes counters when dealing his damage) and magic crits for his killing power. Makes him a bit less likely to be a savior, I'd say, nothing like a Volug or a Nolan. Hell, even a Jill: she gets two free whacks with Brave before a counter, and Canto + flying lets her reach out, touch someone, and get back into position.

Zihark is superhero in 3-6 and 3-13... unfortunately his super powers include things like 1) fucking up your survival strategy with his random lolKO offense, 2) dying in two hits to an absurd number of enemy combinations, and 3) being totally at the mercy of his biorhythm.

Edited June 12, 2009 by Interceptor

[Jaybee]

20/5 Jill with a Robe and a Dracoshield/Def transfer is 3HKO'd.

Jill only has a 16% chance to get a def transfer, and the dracoshield may go to someone else of use, like Shinon.

she gets +2 Def from a B support with any of the Water/Light/Thunder affinity partners available.

Water supports in 3-6: Leo

Light supports in 3-6: Eddie

Thunder supports in 3-6: Aran

Thunder supports in 3-12: Tauroneo

Usual supports: Zihark-Nolan, Micaiah-Sothe, other stuff that might work.

Leo has a highly contested support, so that point is gone. Eddie phails, which leaves Aran as the only choice. Aran's thunder support is also highly contested, but I'm not sure if Jill would like a double Thunder. Volug is actually a pretty good choice because of similiar movement.

She at least 2RKOS everything, and can ORKO untransformed laguz.

Micaiah can do the exact same thing.

Zihark can't reliably ORKO ,he needs Adept/crit, and even if he does that's just another tiger/cat he lets in which puts him in a very dangerous position.

Then take Adept off Zihark and keep it for 3-12. Also, if Jill kills something with a forge, she might land in a osition similiar to Zihak. Also, Zihark has the lovely Brave Sword, which is pretty much an equivalent to the Brave Axe.

[Shadow Mir]

Jill only has a 16% chance to get a def transfer, and the dracoshield may go to someone else of use, like Shinon.

...What? >_>

[Jaybee]

http://www.serenesforest.net/fe9/cap_chance.html

[-Cynthia-]

I believe there was surprise as you suggesting we give the Dracoshield to Shinon of all people. A rather poorly chosen example, since Shinon doesn't really ever have durability issues, and a DB member makes use of it much sooner.

Anyway, a couple of points:

The chance to cap is her chance to cap naturally. Using bands increases this chance substantially, as does using a Dracoshield in PoR.

Leo's affinity is contested, but that doesn't mean Jill can't get it.

Eddie could be fielded solely for support purposes. He also is not that bad, a trained Eddie 2HKOD by tigers just like everyone else.

Comparing Jill's offense to Micaiah's is pretty irrelevant when comparing Jill to Zihark.

We can take Adept off, but then Zihark loses much of his supposed attack lead, and we cannot remove the crit unless we equip him with a lol Bronze Sword, which will make his attack worse than Jill's.

Edited June 12, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Colonel M]

@josh: That... doesn't explain why she can't get the Dracoshield though.

Edited June 12, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rei]

Man I hate having to come up with tier lists for FE10... The system makes it so much harder with the fact you get a lvl up no matter what and BEXP levels give you 3 stats no matter what. Even when you throw around averages, BEXP is going to be used either way which makes calculating final stats that much harder :(.

Anyway, why is Volug so high? Is it because of earth affinity + hax supports + raping in the DB?

Anyways, I always thought Tibarn would be higher.

Also, Oliver belongs in Beautiful tier. Or in epic tier.

Edited June 12, 2009 by Aozaki Touko

[Martelé]

Anyway, why is Volug so high? Is it because of earth affinity + hax supports + raping in the DB?

This and mobility.

Anyways, I always thought Tibarn would be higher.

I guess that's because he's not around for a long time. Part 4 isn't exactly the hardest part of the game, so being uber is less valuable than being uber in the DB. The units above him are fine and are pwning for much longer than him.

[Jaybee]

I give. If I make another post against Jill I'll probably get owned.

Being uber for part 1 and part 3 > Being uber in part 4.

P.S. That was directed to the person who brought up Volug and Tibarn.

[Zkirsche]

Jill's offense is pretty good here, especially now that she has the Brave Axe. She at least 2RKOS everything, and can ORKO untransformed laguz. Zihark can't reliably ORKO ,he needs Adept/crit, and even if he does that's just another tiger/cat he lets in which puts him in a very dangerous position.

Zihark can use the brave sword, which is only contested for by lolMeg and Edward- who has Caladbog anyway.

The bravesword makes it that much mroe liekly that Zihark gets a crit or adept.

[CT075]

Zihark can use the brave sword, which is only contested for by lolMeg and Edward- who has Caladbog anyway.

The bravesword makes it that much mroe liekly that Zihark gets a crit or adept.

A trained "lolMeg" can actually fix her horrible offense with the Brave Sword- not to mention the fact that Edward would always like an extra attack or two (Crit chance>100 ftw).

The same thing could be said about Edward. He also has Wrath for even more crit.

[Shadow Mir]

A trained "lolMeg" can actually fix her horrible offense with the Brave Sword- not to mention the fact that Edward would always like an extra attack or two (Crit chance>100 ftw).

The same thing could be said about Edward. He also has Wrath for even more crit.

...You DO realize that those chapters don't reward offense, right? What you're suggesting is a double-edged sword that cuts both ways.

[_____]

A trained "lolMeg" can actually fix her horrible offense with the Brave Sword- not to mention the fact that Edward would always like an extra attack or two (Crit chance>100 ftw).

...

Are you actually saying that we should field and train a bottom tier character, and that she should get it more than Zihark?

The same thing could be said about Edward. He also has Wrath for even more crit.

Edward killing = not good. It just means that he is getting attacked again, and he's 2 rounded by everything and pretty high hit rates.

Zihark and his EarthxEarth support has actual avoid.

Edited June 12, 2009 by Ninji

[charmander6000]

Even EarthxEarth is sometimes not enough when Zihark's biorhythm is against him. Also he may not have an A support by 3-6. Personally I give my units weapons with enough mt so that they can two round (with the first hit killing the laguz)

[_____]

It's more avoid than Edward can hope to have.

[Interceptor]

It's more avoid than Edward can hope to have.

You are perhaps over-estimating how far behind Eddie actually is. Eddie can realistically have A Nolan by 3-6 for +23 avoid, compared to Zihark's +30 with B Nolan. He loses SPD, but wins LCK, plus he has Caladbolg.

That's not to say that Eddie > Zihark, even in 3-6, but he does give Z a run for his money, since they nearly tie concrete durability when given Earth supports. Just another nail.

[CT075]

...You DO realize that those chapters don't reward offense, right? What you're suggesting is a double-edged sword that cuts both ways.

Actually, the post I quoted also suggested that good offense = good character.

...

Are you actually saying that we should field and train a bottom tier character, and that she should get it more than Zihark?

No, I'm just saying that if she is fielded by some stretch of the imagination, then she can actually have some decent offense with the Brave Sword. Because, y'know, she 6 shots with a Steel Sword, so she should be 2-3RKO'ing with a Brave.

Edward killing = not good. It just means that he is getting attacked again, and he's 2 rounded by everything and pretty high hit rates.

Zihark and his EarthxEarth support has actual avoid.

Zihark and his EarthxEarth support's avoid isn't as great as you make it seem. He might not have an A by then, he might not avoid because enemies have pretty high hit rates, etc. And Edward also has some pretty good avoid by now, too.

[_____]

You are perhaps over-estimating how far behind Eddie actually is. Eddie can realistically have A Nolan by 3-6 for +23 avoid, compared to Zihark's +30 with B Nolan. He loses SPD, but wins LCK, plus he has Caladbolg.

That's not to say that Eddie > Zihark, even in 3-6, but he does give Z a run for his money, since they nearly tie concrete durability when given Earth supports. Just another nail.

Fine, fine, fine.

However, I don't see the point in giving them both Earth Supports, since Zihark and Nolan is the prefered support for both characters, Fiona is lol, and Volug is running off and can't build up a support with Edward easily.

No, I'm just saying that if she is fielded by some stretch of the imagination, then she can actually have some decent offense with the Brave Sword. Because, y'know, she 6 shots with a Steel Sword, so she should be 2-3RKO'ing with a Brave.

The chances of her being fielded are so miniscule that we shouldn't even bother taking them into account. It's like someone saying "FIONA WILL TAKE ALL OF ARAN'S LANCEEESSSSS" in an Edward and Aran debate for 3-6.

Zihark and his EarthxEarth support's avoid isn't as great as you make it seem. He might not have an A by then, he might not avoid because enemies have pretty high hit rates, etc. And Edward also has some pretty good avoid by now, too.

For starters, you say it's a stretch that Zihark and Nolan will have their A support, but you just said that it's possible that we're fielding Meg. What. At least Zihark and Nolan have a reasonable chance to build up an A support (they can get their A if their support was built up in 1-6-1 and 1-6-2).

Secondly, it doesn't quite matter if Edward is going to have pretty good avoid, because, as you mentioned, enemies have high hit rates.

At neutral biorhythms:

20/5 (which is a bit on the low side) Zihark (Nolan A/Nolan B) - 108 Avoid/83 Avoid.

20/1 Edward (Leonardo A) - 50 Avoid.

Hell, let's be generous and throw him an A Nolan.

20/1 Edward (Nolan A) - 73 Avoid.

The highest accuracy enemy is a Cat with 141 accuracy.

Nolan A!Zihark is facing 22.11 True Hit from this dude.

Nolan B!Zihark is facing 65.14.

Leo A!Edward is facing 98.47. Ouch.

Nolan A!Edward is facing 79.84. Quite a large jump from Zihark with a Nolan B, I'm afraid.

And Zihark has 2 defense on Edward. I'm pretty sure it means nothing, but I felt like pointing that out.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Ninji

[nflchamp]

For starters, you say it's a stretch that Zihark and Nolan will have their A support, but you just said that it's possible that we're fielding Meg. What. At least Zihark and Nolan have a reasonable chance to build up an A support (they can get their A if their support was built up in 1-6-1 and 1-6-2).

Unfortunately, to field Meg doesn't have anything to do with game mechanics. 1-6-1 and 1-6-2 are only one chapter in the game's opininion, meaning Nolan and Zihark only get support points for being in one chapter together in addition to extra points they can get from ending turns next to each other or shoving each other. Even if they got C-rank in 1-6, getting to B rank in 1-7 is unlikely. After 1-8 they'd finally get to B rank and then they only have 1-E to get to A. This makes it possible, but still difficult to do. Now tell me that they can do that in a tier playthrough without hindering there preformances.

Secondly, it doesn't quite matter if Edward is going to have pretty good avoid, because, as you mentioned, enemies have high hit rates.

Zihark's avoid lead doesn't really matter if it isn't WTF godly. Dying in 2 hits ~50% of the time from almost any Tiger + Cat and even some Cat + Cat combinations is bad.

Also, I think this is my first counted post. :P

[FlyingOx]

Fine, fine, fine.

However, I don't see the point in giving them both Earth Supports, since Zihark and Nolan is the prefered support for both characters, Fiona is lol, and Volug is running off and can't build up a support with Edward easily.

Technically, Volug can team up with Zihark or Nolan just fine - there's plenty of 1-2 range enemies in Part 1, so Volug should't always be off on his own.

For starters, you say it's a stretch that Zihark and Nolan will have their A support, but you just said that it's possible that we're fielding Meg. What. At least Zihark and Nolan have a reasonable chance to build up an A support (they can get their A if their support was built up in 1-6-1 and 1-6-2).

Secondly, it doesn't quite matter if Edward is going to have pretty good avoid, because, as you mentioned, enemies have high hit rates.

At neutral biorhythms:

20/5 (which is a bit on the low side) Zihark (Nolan A/Nolan B) - 108 Avoid/83 Avoid.

20/1 Edward (Leonardo A) - 50 Avoid.

Hell, let's be generous and throw him an A Nolan.

20/1 Edward (Nolan A) - 73 Avoid.

The highest accuracy enemy is a Cat with 141 accuracy.

Nolan A!Zihark is facing 22.11 True Hit from this dude.

Nolan B!Zihark is facing 65.14.

Leo A!Edward is facing 98.47. Ouch.

Nolan A!Edward is facing 79.84. Quite a large jump from Zihark with a Nolan B, I'm afraid.

And Zihark has 2 defense on Edward. I'm pretty sure it means nothing, but I felt like pointing that out.

Your stats are a bit off. If Z's at 20/5, A Earth gives 105 Avoid and B Earth gives 90 Avoid. Against a 141 Hit Cat, that's 26.28 True Hit and 52.47 True Hit respectively. Mathematically, 20/5 Zihark's chances of 2HKO by tigers is 5x lower at A Earth than B Earth.

Eddie's got 58 Avoid at 20/1, and 81 Avoid w/ A Earth. That's 68.4 True Hit against 141 Hit Cat. With Caladbolg, that's 89 Avoid, for a 54.4 True Hit. But Eddie's also got 4HKO even against 20 Def Tigers with Caladbolg, with ~31% ORKO, so if we're worried about exposing ourselves to too many laguz, Eddie might be better off without Caladbolg. An Angel Robe + Light Affinity may help him take an extra cat hit, if necessary.

Unfortunately, to field Meg doesn't have anything to do with game mechanics. 1-6-1 and 1-6-2 are only one chapter in the game's opininion, meaning Nolan and Zihark only get support points for being in one chapter together in addition to extra points they can get from ending turns next to each other or shoving each other. Even if they got C-rank in 1-6, getting to B rank in 1-7 is unlikely. After 1-8 they'd finally get to B rank and then they only have 1-E to get to A. This makes it possible, but still difficult to do. Now tell me that they can do that in a tier playthrough without hindering there preformances.

Building an A support by 3-6 is only difficult if we're completely restricting ourselves to the Max BEXP turn limit. As far as hindering performance goes, slowing down Pt 1 for an extra support (and some CEXP for tier 1 units) makes Pt 3 easier. Either that, or we speedrun Pt 1 and slow down DB's Pt 3 due to unit frailty.

Zihark's avoid lead doesn't really matter if it isn't WTF godly. Dying in 2 hits ~50% of the time from almost any Tiger + Cat and even some Cat + Cat combinations is bad.

At 20/5, the chances of Z getting hit twice in a row w/ B Earth is ~25%, not 50. With A Earth, that's ~6% by two cats, or ~4% by two tigers. Just for reference, at 20/7 A Earth, that's 4% by 2 cats, or 2% by 2 tigers. That's a pretty big improvement, and we still have things like an Ashera Icon, terrain bonus, Resolve, and 180% avoid growth to consider.

[Progenitus]

20/5 Jill with a Robe and a Dracoshield/Def transfer is 3HKO'd.

Haha, you want to throw in favoritism?

Okay. Zihark gets resolve.

oh snap, now he's facing 0 hit rates. And his adept/crit got even better. For more hilarious results you can also throw in vantage or cancel.

Also, wtfux @ Jill being 20/5. She starts the chapter at 20/1 at best. By the time she's 20/5 the chapter's almost over.

And if you want to argue that the Dracoshield/Def transfer is unfair, she gets +2 Def from a B support with any of the Water/Light/Thunder affinity partners available.

LIST OF UNITS WHO HAVE A +DEF AFFINITY

Edward: lolcrap

Leo: lolcrap

Aran: Much rather support Laura due to its speed, and Aran doesn't give a shit what affinity his partner has.

Tauroneo: lolwut

You were saying?

And transfers has and will always be a ridiculous argument. yes, I'm going to play ~30 chapters of a completely different game just to have a chance of getting +2 to a couple of stats for specific units. It can't even be for all the characters in PoR because you simply don't have the resources to get them to 20/20, so simply choosing transfers for certain units and not others is already favoritism. and then if your chosen characters get RNG screwed and don't cap you just wasted a fuckload of time.

I'm actually rather surprised you're against Jill here, since you take the complete opposite side in Edward vs. Aran, saying that Aran can avoid 2HKOs with resources. But that's Aran, so of course it's different huh.gif

Haha, nice stab in the dark buddy.

Now if Aran was actually getting 2HKO'd without resources outside of one fucking chapter (and even then his chances of avoiding the 2HKO is significantly better than Edward simply by just leveling up), maybe I would actually take you seriously.

Jill's offense is pretty good here, especially now that she has the Brave Axe. She at least 2RKOS everything,

Fuck yes she 2 rounds cats when basically everyone can do it. Fucking Aran can 2HKO them with a forged steel, and if he can't he can do it within 1-2 levels.

Only Jill has a lot less hit than everyone, since she has ~130 hit with the brave axe against cats who have ~50 avoid at neutral biorhythm, which means Jill actually has 27.7% for one of the hits to miss with true hit considered, while everyone else is swinging around 90-100 hit weapons and/or overkill skl so they have like 100 displayed hit. If biorhythm puts her down by even FIVE hit (she at bad and the enemy at neutral, for example), her chances to miss one of her four attacks now increases to 40.7%. If she's down 10 hit, she misses one of her 4 attacks 54.1% of the time. By this point she may as well not even fucking attack.

Zihark has like 32 att with a forged steel and doubles (if he doesn't double he'll do it in like one level up) against cats who have 42-43 HP/14-16 def, so he easily 3HKOs, which means either a crit or adept will kill them off (he has ~23 crit vs enemies who have ~7 lck, and ~26% adept, which means ~37% chance for either to go off). He can 2HKO and one round them if anyone else attacks first. Anyone. Even Laura or Sothe throwing a knife.

Also, he has almost 150 hit with a forged steel that doesn't even have any +hit to it. His hit in worst bio is the same as Jill's in best bio. What a joke. His hit with a WIND EDGE is only about 5 less than Jill with brave axe.

the hit issues get even worse in 3-13 because her hit is now like 140 against ~65 avoid cats. Her hit at neutral bio is like her hit when she was down 5 hit, so she's failing to 2-round about 40% of the time at neutral bio (~32.4% if she manages to 3HKO them, which she's pretty borderline). This is pretty frickin bad.

She also has serious issues 2-rounding tigers in 3-6, EVEN IF SHE QUADRUPLES THEM. She has ~16 str at 20/1 and the most common tigers have 50-52 HP, 20 def. Fuck yes doing 6 damage a hit. Even quadrupling that's only 48 HP of damage in 2 rounds.

JILL USES UP 20% OF THE BRAVE AXE AND STILL MAY NOT EVEN KILL OFF ONE TIGER.

BEST UNIT EVAR, MIRITE

The hit issues aren't even gone either. Tigers have ~40 avoid so she's going to miss one of her 8 attacks about 14.2% of the time at neutral bio. With a -5 hit disadvantage it increases to ~29.9%. At -10 disadvantage it becomes 47.8%. It's almost as bad as the hit issue with cats, only you're wasting more brave axe uses.

Zihark with forged steel does about the same damage in one hit that Jill with her brave axe does in 2, and can be in WORST BIO and still have ~100 displayed hit. That's how much of a joke she is against tigers with that weapon. She's better off just swinging around a forged axe, because mindlessly wasting brave axe uses doesn't do us anything.

Nevermind that the brave axe has only 40 uses, so if she's relying on it so much (and considering she needs 4+ uses to kill anything with it), it's going to break very fast. Things like Tarvos only have 40 uses as well, but at least they're not using 4+ durability a round.

and can ORKO untransformed laguz.

oh snap, best unit evar.

Now if the rest of the team that should actually be fighting couldn't do that as well I might care about it.

Zihark can't reliably ORKO ,he needs Adept/crit,

Zihark has ~1/3 chance to get a crit or adept, and if he decides to use a killing edge or brave weapon his chances only get better. A killing edge gives him 45-50 crit which gives him ~70-75% chance for a crit alone, nevermind his chances to adept which gives him additional chances to crit. A brave sword gives him ~70% chance to get an adept out of his 4 attacks, and ~50% chance to get a crit out of his 4 attacks. This owns cats hard and will leave tigers at low HP if it doesn't kill them.

The only people actually one rounding anything are beast killer Sothe vs tigers, and Volug vs cats.

His offense is not wtfbbqpwning the team but it's significantly better than someone like Jill.

and even if he does that's just another tiger/cat he lets in which puts him in a very dangerous position.

If Zihark is guarding the left chokepoint the laguz have to swim through the swamp where only 1, maybe 2 laguz will usually reach him per turn, and if he's guarding the right chokepoint there are tons of thickets for him to hide in which give +10 avoid.

I fail to see how Zihark is in anymore danger than Jill, especially if you want to throw in favoritism.

[-Cynthia-]

Haha, you want to throw in favoritism?

Okay. Zihark gets resolve.

oh snap, now he's facing 0 hit rates. And his adept/crit got even better. For more hilarious results you can also throw in vantage or cancel.

Also, wtfux @ Jill being 20/5. She starts the chapter at 20/1 at best. By the time she's 20/5 the chapter's almost over.

Zihark getting Resolve is arguably more favoritism than Jill using a Seraph, because while almost every unit in the game likes Resolve, most units don't have significant defensive improvement with a Seraph Robe.

LIST OF UNITS WHO HAVE A +DEF AFFINITY

Edward: lolcrap

Leo: lolcrap

Aran: Much rather support Laura due to its speed, and Aran doesn't give a shit what affinity his partner has.

Tauroneo: lolwut

We have enough slots available to field Edward/Leo for support purposes if need be. Leo actually isn't that bad on 3-6, he can use the Bowgun/Beastfoe combo and leave Nolan open for Tarvos tanking.

And transfers has and will always be a ridiculous argument. yes, I'm going to play ~30 chapters of a completely different game just to have a chance of getting +2 to a couple of stats for specific units. It can't even be for all the characters in PoR because you simply don't have the resources to get them to 20/20, so simply choosing transfers for certain units and not others is already favoritism. and then if your chosen characters get RNG screwed and don't cap you just wasted a fuckload of time.

You are really the only person that completely discount transfers as a possibility. They are a part of the game, get over it.

Now if Aran was actually getting 2HKO'd without resources outside of one fucking chapter (and even then his chances of avoiding the 2HKO is significantly better than Edward simply by just leveling up), maybe I would actually take you seriously.

1-4. That sure is a map Aran gets 2HKOd on

Fuck yes she 2 rounds cats when basically everyone can do it. Fucking Aran can 2HKO them with a forged steel, and if he can't he can do it within 1-2 levels.

So she has offense better than most of the team with more durability? That's essentially the point here.

Only Jill has a lot less hit than everyone, since she has ~130 hit with the brave axe against cats who have ~50 avoid at neutral biorhythm, which means Jill actually has 27.7% for one of the hits to miss with true hit considered, while everyone else is swinging around 90-100 hit weapons and/or overkill skl so they have like 100 displayed hit. If biorhythm puts her down by even FIVE hit (she at bad and the enemy at neutral, for example), her chances to miss one of her four attacks now increases to 40.7%. If she's down 10 hit, she misses one of her 4 attacks 54.1% of the time. By this point she may as well not even fucking attack.

Jill could also be using a +hit forge or have a support partner that boosts hit, you've basically set her up in the worst possible postion to screw up her hit. Of course when Aran only has 55 hit with a Javelin at base that's entirely insignificant. Because it's Aran.

She also has serious issues 2-rounding tigers in 3-6, EVEN IF SHE QUADRUPLES THEM. She has ~16 str at 20/1 and the most common tigers have 50-52 HP, 20 def. Fuck yes doing 6 damage a hit. Even quadrupling that's only 48 HP of damage in 2 rounds.

That's a seriously underleveled Jill.

JILL USES UP 20% OF THE BRAVE AXE AND STILL MAY NOT EVEN KILL OFF ONE TIGER.

BEST UNIT EVAR, MIRITE

Despite what you may have been told, caps lock is not cruise control for cool.

Nevermind that the brave axe has only 40 uses, so if she's relying on it so much (and considering she needs 4+ uses to kill anything with it), it's going to break very fast. Things like Tarvos only have 40 uses as well, but at least they're not using 4+ durability a round.

Then she can use a forged steel axe and still 2RKO everything. This also makes your hit issues completely irrelevant, not like they had much in the first place.

oh snap, best unit evar.

Now if the rest of the team that should actually be fighting couldn't do that as well I might care about it.

Zihark is not better than Jill against untransformed laguz. Fact.

His offense is not wtfbbqpwning the team but it's significantly better than someone like Jill.

Unfortunately 3-6 does not reward Zihark's offense, it merely opens up anther spot for a laguz to attack and kill him. if Jill's offense was terrible you might have a point, but she 2RKOS transformed and ORKOS untransformed.

If Zihark is guarding the left chokepoint the laguz have to swim through the swamp where only 1, maybe 2 laguz will usually reach him per turn, and if he's guarding the right chokepoint there are tons of thickets for him to hide in which give +10 avoid.

If 2 Tigers can reach Zihark, then he has a very good chance of dying.

I fail to see how Zihark is in anymore danger than Jill, especially if you want to throw in favoritism.

I gave Jill a Seraph Robe, you gave Zihark resolve. These aren't equal.

Honestly if you're going to post in a tier thread try to have at least a little more maturity.

This relates very little to the tier list anyway, since no one is trying to argue Jill>Zihark, it's a comparison of Jill and Oscar, so I don't think I'll post anymore until this actually gets on track.

Edited June 13, 2009 by -Cynthia-