OMG it's a tier list

[Narga_Rocks]

Elincia was normal, cause I didn't get to the boss until turn 7, but she can't go into bad in 2-P because it is too short for her biorythm to get there. As for Ike, that guy is crazy. I know worst drops your activation by 10 and with 30 skill his base activation is 15, but that guy disarmed a couple of things in 3-7 while on worst with a 5% activation. Honestly, there were times I double checked his bio after a disarm and had a little bit of open mouth syndrome. And I think he did it in a couple of other chapters. I think I must have used up all my luck when he did that, though. Not that statistics really works that way, but life still feels like it does. Still, I don't remember if he was on worst or best at the time but there was once in 3-7 he disarmed a wyrmslayer swordmaster (sold it) on enemy phase and then a storm sword swordmaster (kept it) on the following player phase. Without Reyson I would have missed out on one of them. And I had Zihark with 2 items for Heather to steal and had to kill him after stealing the first because of it. I guess I used up all my luck in 3-7 so I had none left for 3-8.

[Gergeshwan]

I generally let Nolan have Eddie (lv 8 or so Myrmidon) until after 3-13. Then I have Nolan drop Eddie in part 4 and take a C Micaiah in 4-P. Nolan is hurt a little by this in 4-P, but in 4-3 it is a desert and he doesn't face enough enemies at once to care about a support.

First off, why is Nolan even going to the desert? 2 move is not good (or whatever he has). It basically renders him useless for a chapter, which is a problem when you're highly underleveled and need all the experience you can get. Both he (and Zihark) would like a route where they can keep up. For the record, Jill and Volug are not afraid of the desert.

They are B in 4-E-1 and Micaiah is force deployed so Nolan is better off with her than with two people who might not make it to endgame (Zihark and Volug).

Endgame is one of Zihark's best times. He has Ike's stars and supports for massive avoid, and between Adept and Astra, a large skill activation rate. He also doubles the Auras for Parity fun. Endgame also happens to be a great time for Nolan. Hmm...

Um, the only thing PEMN can be applied to is the A support by 4-E-2, everything else is backed up by numbers. And if you can't get Micaiah to at least 28 speed by 4-E-2 despite her growths, it isn't because I got lucky, it is because you never used bexp on her at the right times and/or didn't level her enough.

BEXP? You do realize this is Hard, right? She gets ORKOd by almost everything, so she can't get large amounts of experience easily. Not being able to frontline is bad for your exp gain, as it basically relegates her to Player Phase. She won't be at 20 in time for those promotions. And she's not getting many levels of bexp because everyone wants it, and there isn't much to go around. Not like it helps her anyway, she still gets doubled and one shotted, and still nukes armors and later heals just the same. Maybe not a PEMN moment, but certainly favoritism.

If you are complaining about Nolan being better served by a defense support, when have you ever counted on that 40% hit from a laguz missing to keep Nolan alive? If you have, how many times have you had to reset? Conversely, can you see how getting him 1 or 2 defense will keep him alive from more combinations? Which one can you count on? Which one will have you resetting and throwing your controller? Why should I give Nolan an earth support?

How many times does that defense not change his RKO number? When have you ever counted on that defense support when it only helps against 40% of enemies? Conversely, can you see how 22 more avoid is always beneficial, and always improves his chance to completely avoid damage? Which one can you count on? Why should I give Nolan that Light support?

Sorry, I had to do that. But let's look at 3-6. 20/1 Nolan has 38 HP, 14 def (18 with Tarvos). 39 atk Tigers, the most common enemy, 2HKO him with or without Tarvos, and +2 defense on supports doesn't immediately change either case (Robe/Shield does push it to 3HKO with Tarvos). Even with the +def support, the shield still doesn't save from 41 atk tigers.

Now Nolan would only have B Zihark here, and 7 more avoid isn't that impressive. However, it would be a 22 avoid gap in 3-13, and since Nolan will be a higher level, he will have more avoid. His Zihark A support basically cancels Ike's stars, and then it is mostly the same enemies fought in 3-6 with more evasive characters due to higher levels. And if +def isn't helping, than anything avoid can do is useful.

Just one more nitpick: Keeping Nolan supported with Edward forces you to either protect him or keep him away from the front lines. In the former case, he hurts efficiency, in the latter case, he isn't giving his bonuses often. Both Nolan and Zihark like their support, and there is no reason to break it up.

[Narga_Rocks]

Actually, that isn't the most annoying part of the Edward support. The most annoying part is actually having to field Edward in 1-7, or 1-8, or 1-E, which I didn't, so it was only a B support. Now, that's because I like torturing myself with Ilyana just so that she can be 3HKO'd in part 4 by far far more enemies than Soren or Calill will ever reach. But nevertheless, I could have fielded Edward instead of her, though she is better than him. Aran is probably a better idea for Nolan than Edward, but either one gives that +2 defence if you can get to A. (Edit: the 8 hit that Ed gives at A Nolan helps Nolan when he isn't using Tarvos, like hand axes and such, but I don't know whether Aran or Ed is better, and Leo just allows Nolan to crit kill Tigers which is bad) Aran gets 1-4 and 1-5 to get to C, 1-6 and 1-7 to get B, and 1-8 and 1-E to get to A, but even that is countered by the fact that I have to actually use Aran and not use Ilyana. I admit that as long as I am using Ilyana, I don't have the slots to get Nolan to +2 defence with anyone, and even if I don't use Ilyana, I then have to use people that aren't as good as her and don't have cool advantages over others of their class in part 4. Well, Aran could actually be made to be better than her in part 1, probably, but we would have to provide him with more kills than Ilyana needs to get to a decent level and at least she starts with 13 speed and enough strength to not be waited down by all she is likely to get. Aran needs 3 strength before he can use the steel lance without hurting his already bad speed. But I'm not here to argue about Ilyana, oops.

Anyway, even if the +2 def only helps 20% of the time, at least when the situation comes up I know it will work. All the extra evade helps for is that I heal him less often because he pulled off a dodge either on player phase or enemy phase. Maybe that is better, maybe it isn't, but I don't see a significant difference.

And yes, Zihark is virtually invincible in part 4, and he does have parity fun. But Mia doesn't need any more than level 15 and she'll be awesome for that anyway. Zihark at level 15 has 30 strength so if we get him there than they are about equal at that. But even if we bring both I'd rather have 1 trueblade and 1 royal with 40 speed having parity rather than both TB's. Mia + Zihark does not kill a cover aura. Mia/Zihark + royal does. (As long as that royal is base level Tibarn or Nailah if you can get her speed, although if Nailah doesn't get strength then she needs Mia's 51 mt because Zihark doesn't get 31 str till level 18 or so, although Bexp drops the level needed for each.)

And even though endgame is one of Zihark's best times, Mia just has more strength and more defense and more luck (though if Z doesn't get hit then at least he doesn't worry about crits). I'll give Z a definite win for 4-E-2 because Mia's best support is occupied. Everything else is Mia has a much better kill rate and Z is only catching up with paragon.

As for Nolan in the desert, I think the +2 mt is worth it. Maybe I'm wasting his time there cause he can only ever get 4 or 5 kills and then I need to apply paragon on him in 4-E-1. I think it is worth it, you don't. Oh well.

As for Micaiah, she is way to good against way too many bosses in part 1 to not get to level 20 in part 1. The best part is if you get her to level 18 after 1-8 with 80 or so exp, one level is cheap. If you get her to the same part of level 19 in 1-9, another cheap level. With Mag and Res capped sadly speed is still her 4th highest, but at least it is only down by .05. In the desert she needs paragon. That is definitely favouritism but I figure she is forced anyway so I might as well get her closer to level 20. The fun thing is that unlike Sothe after 4-P, you can use Micaiah in the desert and then bonus exp a bit because she doesn't promote until we leave the base in 4-E-1. If you get her to level 17 with over 70 exp, then getting her to level 20 is not that expensive. It is favouritism, sure, but all of your people are tier 3 with either nothing capped or one stat cap. If we don't use it now and use it later then our army is 2 or 3 levels lower for a couple of maps. I still think that one is worth it too. Maybe it only gets her to 23 speed before promotion if you aren't a little lucky or don't reset once or twice for speed. 25 speed gets her doubled by warriors and swordmasters but that's it.

So maybe it is some favouritism but I think it is minor.

Although, something against giving her favouritism is that in 4-E-3 she is immortal with 40 Magic and 40 Res and Nosferatu as long as she isn't OHKO'd by 58 mt Red dragons and the white's stay off cover tiles. She doesn't need speed or a Nolan support for that. So again, I'm not sure if it is all worth it in the end or not. But there are a lot of things in this game that may or may not be worth it.

Edit: Oh, and protecting Edward in 3-6 is just the same as any of the others. Keep them behind the lines. 3-13 is the same, and even 3-12 is the same. So defending an underleveled Aran or Edward is simple.

Edit 2: And to smash. Sure, Nolan has a chance at critting, but let's look at what happens when he does. On average, he has 34 Mt when the chapter starts. If he crits an 18 def tiger with 48 hp, it dies and Nolan clears a space and is killed if another tiger is attacking, that's bad. If he crits a 20 def tiger or the 18 def tiger has 49 hp, it lives. If Nolan crits a cat, Nolan has enough hp to take that tiger hit without dying if a tiger shows up, and as long as it has 49 hp, he can crit it too. If he faces a second cat, then he has to crit it too and have a tiger show up, or a cat if they are ALL 31 mt. If even one of them is 29 mt, Nolan lives and has to crit 3 cats in a row to die. If Nolan dodges even one of these things, he lives. Basically, Nolan has a 15 crit vs enemies with 6 or 7 dodge, so he's got about .09*.09=.0081 or .81% chance of killing both cats, and has to be hit by all 3 enemies that show up. Basically, the only time Nolan has even the slightest chance of death is critting a 48hp/18def tiger on enemy phase with another tiger coming in next.

And as for resolve, sure, Zihark isn't spending all of his time with Resolve active, but then instead of getting 3 or 4 chapters use, he gets like 2 total or less because he is spending like 5 turns a map with resolve active, if that, and even so when it is active his chance to be hit is still his chance to die. Also, if you are using those thickets where you can line up 3 of your people on thickets, guess what: there can now easily be 4 or 5 laguz attacking Zihark on enemy phase if he keeps blicking them. And with that awesome 70% chance of killing these things that you give him, when is that not happening? Also, it should be noted that with no herons to fix Zihark's bio, he is either hitting worst in 3-6 or 3-13, unless you spend a lot of turns on 3-12 just to fix that. Although, I calculated his bio once and if you always bring Zihark and always finish at exactly the max bexp turn number, Zihark hits best in 3-6 by like turn 3 or 4 (I think, it was a while ago that I counted and I'm not doing it again). Even so, it just means he is at worst for almost all of 3-13.

And as for 3HKO people being 2HKO people because we went and let them get hit without healing them, why didn't we heal them? Zihark will never be as reliably survivable as some of the others because he has this annoying habit of killing things we don't want him to or sucking massively with the bronze sword.

So having resolve active for 5 turns on 3-6 and probably no turns on 3-13 vs. Mordecai using it from turn 2 or 3 till the end of the map on all of his maps in his part 3 so that he can double thus making Mia less good relative to the team so that Zihark might actually beat her in usefulness overall. Now, you can give Resolve to someone who can actually use it in 3-13 so that we get more than 5 turns out of it, but it is still a lot less than what Mordecai gets out of it.

Edited June 24, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[dondon151]

See Narga_Rocks' post, since he does a better job explaining the situation than I probably would have.

OK then. I still wouldn't readily count Storm Swords that require Disarm to get, however, since that requires deployment of an inferior combat unit as well as a bit of luck.

What I mean is that I think you are perhaps going too quickly, even in BEXP terms. I just kill-favor people that I am going to be using, and I don't recall having any extraordinary amount of difficultly getting them to a usable level. I will probably have to play HM again. *shrug*

I don't think so. FE10 is not FE6. I don't resort to super risky strategies to clear chapters, and were I to be truly efficient in every sense of the word, I wouldn't waste my time applying favoritism to Neph/Mia/Jill/Volug.

I'm not sure I see the worth of a hypothetical that specifically divorces itself from what happens in a realistic situation by ignoring per-hit CEXP, and the specific levels of enemy units.

The point is that a flat EXP cut doesn't help Mia close level gaps relative to chapter completion. In NM, Haar will have 19/0 vs. Mia's 16/0 while in HM Haar will have 19/0 vs. Mia's 17/0, for instance, but the latter will occur in a later chapter, so Mia won't close the level gap any faster.

[Progenitus]

Edit 2: And to smash. Sure, Nolan has a chance at critting, but let's look at what happens when he does. On average, he has 34 Mt when the chapter starts. If he crits an 18 def tiger with 48 hp, it dies and Nolan clears a space and is killed if another tiger is attacking, that's bad. If he crits a 20 def tiger or the 18 def tiger has 49 hp, it lives. If Nolan crits a cat, Nolan has enough hp to take that tiger hit without dying if a tiger shows up, and as long as it has 49 hp, he can crit it too. If he faces a second cat, then he has to crit it too and have a tiger show up, or a cat if they are ALL 31 mt. If even one of them is 29 mt, Nolan lives and has to crit 3 cats in a row to die. If Nolan dodges even one of these things, he lives. Basically, Nolan has a 15 crit vs enemies with 6 or 7 dodge, so he's got about .09*.09=.0081 or .81% chance of killing both cats, and has to be hit by all 3 enemies that show up. Basically, the only time Nolan has even the slightest chance of death is critting a 48hp/18def tiger on enemy phase with another tiger coming in next.

The whole point of pointing out Nolan's crit is that Zihark isn't really in danger even if he ends up critting with his weak sword, or at least in no more danger than someone like Nolan.

Your numbers are nice, but they're superfluous. No one should really be in danger of dying in 3-6 unless you get one rounded, and if you have half a brain no one should be dying in 3-13 either. The whole point of being able to take extra hits (or in Zihark's case dodging a hit) is requiring less healing, which in turn gives you more opportunities to attack/tank/whatever because you're not wasting your healer's turn (or you're not wasting your own turn using a vulnerary).

And as for resolve, sure, Zihark isn't spending all of his time with Resolve active, but then instead of getting 3 or 4 chapters use, he gets like 2 total or less because he is spending like 5 turns a map with resolve active, if that, and even so when it is active his chance to be hit is still his chance to die. Also, if you are using those thickets where you can line up 3 of your people on thickets, guess what: there can now easily be 4 or 5 laguz attacking Zihark on enemy phase if he keeps blicking them. And with that awesome 70% chance of killing these things that you give him, when is that not happening? Also, it should be noted that with no herons to fix Zihark's bio, he is either hitting worst in 3-6 or 3-13, unless you spend a lot of turns on 3-12 just to fix that. Although, I calculated his bio once and if you always bring Zihark and always finish at exactly the max bexp turn number, Zihark hits best in 3-6 by like turn 3 or 4 (I think, it was a while ago that I counted and I'm not doing it again). Even so, it just means he is at worst for almost all of 3-13.

I said that Resolve was only a suggestion. It's not like, say, Jill's case, where she absolutely must have a robe and shield if she actually wants to be semi useful in this chapter other than doing one hit and run for fairly mediocre damage and then requiring a heal (her concrete durability vs Zihark is otherwise only slightly better).

And as for 3HKO people being 2HKO people because we went and let them get hit without healing them, why didn't we heal them? Zihark will never be as reliably survivable as some of the others because he has this annoying habit of killing things we don't want him to or sucking massively with the bronze sword.

"sucking massively", huh?

It's funny, because Zihark's offense with a weak sword is about the same as someone like Nolan vs cats.

Zihark with iron sword has ~24 att. This is ~10 damage and he doubles.

Nolan with Tarvos has ~36 att. This is ~22 damage against a cat.

For Zihark to kill the cat off, he'd have to get like a crit + adept. Note that Nolan actually has ~15 crit, which is about 8 crit on laguz, so if you're worried about accidentally killing something, Nolan's chances to OHKO are almost the same as Zihark's.

So if you're so worried about Zihark killing too many enemies, he can use a weak sword and still have similar offense to people like Nolan.

And then in situations where you aren't worried about Zihark dying on you (which is the more common scenario) he can bust out his uber swords.

btw, if it's a tiger...

Zihark with steel sword has ~27 att. Since tigers have 20 def, this is double 7s

Nolan with Tarvos does 16 damage.

So having resolve active for 5 turns on 3-6 and probably no turns on 3-13 vs. Mordecai using it from turn 2 or 3 till the end of the map on all of his maps in his part 3 so that he can double thus making Mia less good relative to the team so that Zihark might actually beat her in usefulness overall. Now, you can give Resolve to someone who can actually use it in 3-13 so that we get more than 5 turns out of it, but it is still a lot less than what Mordecai gets out of it.

Mordecai is just one unit.

[Narga_Rocks]

So basically Zihark is just like everyone else in this chapter. He can do a bit more damage, sure, but even 70% fails sometimes if we really need him to kill something. So basically since I can't rely on it the only thing I can do is plan for him to be able to kill his target even if he doesn't pull off a crit. And without resolve we can never let him actually be at under half hit points or he might die. So basically when he dodges we don't need to heal him and when he doesn't we heal him. When Nolan is 3HKO'd we don't have to heal him when he is 2HKO'd by the coming enemies we do. Maybe we have to heal Nolan or Jill or Sothe a bit more often, but we have 2 healers and an NPC healer who can heal every other turn. I say every other because if we leave them on Roam all the time the stupid npcs will start getting injured and the priest will heal them, or they'll kill something we didn't want them to kill or whatever. If we alternate between roam and targetting the bottom left corner, we can make certain they can never actually attack something or get attacked and they won't mess us up. And if the priest is healing us no matter what (npcs are at full hp) then we can have some control over whom it is healing.

So basically Zihark is just like everybody else except a little better on offence 50-70% of the time, which might mess up our plans, and might dodge a little more often than someone else is 3HKOd instead of 2. If Zihark gets a win in this chapter against people who aren't Volug (Z loses) or nubs (Z wins) I just don't see how it is a big win.

Edit: And again, unless it is a bronze sword, there is always a much higher chance of him getting himself killed, even if we take out adept, although at least the numbers are a lot less scary for iron sword or steel sword zihark blicking something if we remove adept, but then he has no advantage over Mia but avo in part 4 because he can't use two 15 capacity skills.

Edited June 24, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[dondon151]

For Zihark to kill the cat off, he'd have to get like a crit + adept. Note that Nolan actually has ~15 crit, which is about 8 crit on laguz, so if you're worried about accidentally killing something, Nolan's chances to OHKO are almost the same as Zihark's.

So if you're so worried about Zihark killing too many enemies, he can use a weak sword and still have similar offense to people like Nolan.

Nolan has an 8% chance of ORKO. Zihark's chances are much higher (20/6 assumed):

Chance to activate 1 Adept: 37.5%

Chance to activate 2 Adepts: 6.25%

Chance to crit: 15%

When Zihark activates Adept once, he must not crit on all 3 attacks (61.4%). His chance for ORKO is 14.5%.

When Zihark activates Adept twice, he must not crit on all 4 attacks (52.2%). His chance for ORKO is 3.0%.

Sum these up and Zihark's chance for ORKO is 17.5%, over twice as likely as Nolan's chance to ORKO.

Then, the moment Zihark hits 19 strength, he can ORKO all cats with only a crit (i.e. 4HKO). Furthermore, Adept activating twice screws him. Let's assume 20/6 Zihark with 19 strength instead of 18 for simplicity's sake, since Zihark will definitely go above 20/6 in this chapter but I want to hold crit and Adept activation constant because they're nice numbers.

Chance to activate 0 Adepts: 56.25%

Chance to activate 2 Adepts: 6.25%

Chance to crit: 15%

When Zihark does not activate Adept, he must not crit on all 2 attacks (72.25%). His chance for ORKO is 15.6%.

When Zihark activates Adept once, he must not crit on all 3 attacks (61.4%). His chance for ORKO is 14.5%.

When Zihark activates Adept twice, his chance for ORKO is 6.25%.

Sum these up and Zihark's chance for ORKO is 36.35%, over four times as likely as Nolan's chance to ORKO.

By the way, in case you're confused with any wording, my math is completely correct.

And then in situations where you aren't worried about Zihark dying on you (which is the more common scenario) he can bust out his uber swords.

Unfortunately, I just showed that Zihark is pretty worried about dying because he is just too good. 19 strength Zihark 5HKOs all level 14 and 15 tigers with Steel Sword, which is accomplished after Adept and a crit. If he busts out the Brave Sword, that's twice as many opportunities for either Adept or a crit to happen, meaning that Zihark fears dying against the most common level 16 tigers.

Edited June 24, 2009 by dondon151

[Vykan12]

Let’s look at Zihark vs Nolan in 3-6 from the perspective of death chances. I’m assuming that it’s plausible for Zihark to have an A support by then, so if that bothers you, quit reading.

If Nolan wants to be 3HKOed by tigers, he’s probably taking A thunder from Aran or something. Zihark takes too much effort to be 3HKOed, so he’s fine taking an earth.

--/20/6 Zihark (A Volug): 107 avo (132 w/ resolve)

20/3/0 Nolan (A Aran): 82 avo (101 avo w/ resolve)

I’m going to be listing the chances of death in 3 attacks for each character against various hit rate values.

==============

Vs a 132 hit tiger

==============

Zihark: 4.46%

Resolve!Zihark: 0%

Nolan: 12.8%

Resolve!Nolan: 4.98%

=============

Vs a 137 hit tiger

=============

Zihark: 8.8%

Resolve!Zihark: 0.28%

Nolan: 21.5%

Resolve!Nolan: 9.45%

=============

Vs a 141 hit tiger

=============

Zihark: 13.92%

Resolve!Zihark: 1.1%

Nolan: 29.7%

Resolve!Nolan: 14.45%

==========================

Vs a 151 hit tiger (high biorhythm)

==========================

Zihark: 34%

Resolve!Zihark: 7.35%

Nolan: 53.3%

Resolve!Nolan: 33.2%

Note that Nolan’s avo with an A earth support falls in between his regular and resolve self. Also note that Nolan only has an extra chapter to build an earth support than Zihark does, and 1-5 is restricted to 6 turns, not to mention Volug is making a rush for NPC Jill & co to maximize their odds of staying alive.

Let’s take that 137 hit tiger again while both characters only have a B.

Zihark: 36.57%

Resolve!Zihark: 8.4%

Nolan: 21.5%

Resolve!Nolan: 9.45%

In the overwhelming majority of cases, Zihark has better durability after 3 attacks, and I didn’t even consider vines, which work in Zihark’s favor.

Of course, Nolan isn’t facing chances of death in 2 hits so long as he’s at full hp while Zihark is. However, those chances are so small they’re fairly negligible. For instance, if a 137 hit tiger attacks Zihark on a vine, he’s facing 8.2 true hit. His odds of dying in 2 attacks are only 0.67%. Or let’s say Zihark has resolve and is facing a 141 hit tiger (no vines involved). His chances of getting hit are 23.46 hit before resolve and 1.71 hit after, the result being a ~0.4% chance of death in 2 hits. Adding the vines makes Zihark invincible (141 hit vs 142 avo when resolve is active).

We could bring biorhythm into this, but then that hurts Nolan just as much as Zihark (if not more) in 3+ hit scenarios. Then for 2/3rds of his bio pattern, resolve!Zihark has 142-152 avo on vines, the latter of which makes him completely invincible in 3-6 (the highest hitting high bio tiger has 151). Moreover, Zihark need only equip a crappy weapon/no weapon at all to pass through low bio stages (he’ll cap at 1 enemy attack per turn), so that issue is hurting his offence more than anything.

Oh, and a completely random point: Resolve!Zihark is impervious to untransformed laguz attacks while Nolan isn’t. Although the HM data doesn’t list enemy skill, they seem to have ~20 if my calculations serve me right, which is precisely the amount of hit they’d lose in a reverted state. Untransformed tigers still have 27 atk, so if Nolan gets hit by just one of them, he’s getting 2HKOed by transformed tigers. Sure, this is a minor point, but it gives emphasis on Nolan’s need to heal constantly. Even the least threatening enemies in the level can force him to heal so he can maintain his delicate ability to absorb 2 hits from tigers.

I’m not claiming Zihark wins durability in 3-6, just that both are so fundamentally close in that regard that it really doesn’t warrant this level of attention.

Here’s some food for though: Mia has pretty significant chances of dying in 2 hits herself in 3-P and 3-1. She has 89 base avo, and is 2HKOed by anything with 30+ atk. In 3-P alone, we have:

1x Warrior lvl 8 (Steel Axe)

HP 40, Atk 33, AS 20, Hit 129, Avo 54, DEF 15, RES 9, Crit 10, Ddg 14

1x Lance General lvl 7 (Steel Lance)

HP 37, Atk 30, AS 18, Hit 131, Avo 49, DEF 23, RES 12, Crit 9, Ddg 15

1x Fire Sage lvl 6 (Elfire)

HP 31, Atk 25, AS 17, Hit 127, Avo 54, DEF 12, RES 15, Crit 8, Ddg 10

1x Halberdier lvl 7 (Steel Greatlance)

HP 36, Atk 33, AS 19, Hit 121, Avo 51, DEF 18, RES 13, Crit 14, Ddg 13

1x Lance General lvl 9 (Horseslayer)

HP 39, Atk 33, AS 17, Hit 119, Avo 50, DEF 23, RES 13, Crit 9, Ddg 16

Against the 129 hit warrior, she faces a 10.5% chance of death in 2 attacks and 24.7% in 3.

In contrast, 28 atk is required to 2HKO base lvl Zihark in part 1. Not a single enemy has that in 1-6 or 1-7. There’s a lone fighter with 28 atk in 1-8. By 1-E, 8 enemies have it before reinforcements, but then Zihark has his B by now and he’s also probably levelled up at least twice, so he’s certainly not facing >10% death chances in 2 hits.

[Narga_Rocks]

About mia: Yeah, I know. 3-P and 3-1 are annoying for her. Still, in order to rush in and kill the boss on turn 10 so that Skrimir can arrive we are probably killing most things that could attack mia on enemy phase anyway. It hurts her usefulness that we need to block sometimes with other people, though, and that I don't think they let us have a torch yet so we can't even see when only one enemy will come instead of 2. On 3-1 she does well enough on the thickets on the right, but unless she is on best she still faces annoying death chances for 2 or 3 turns. At least she is only in danger of dying when she kills the thing in front of her and something else comes. The guy with a ranged weapon that keeps attacking her if mia I think has almost no chance of hitting her. I'm not sure which one he is though in the HM enemy stats page, but I think it is the 105 hit guy. Still, though, when she kills the warrior (I think) that usually comes first the next guy has sometimes been the killer lance boss, which is a very bad thing for Mia. I'm not sure what I can say in defense of that.

Anyway, the problem with those numbers is that Zihark has a much higher chance of facing multiple enemies than Nolan does. We might want to multiply those death chances by the chances of seeing 3 or 4 enemies and compare them then. I don't feel like calculating it so if anyone else wants to that would be great. ;)

Now, I don't know if the laguz can do different things or take different paths, but I remember there was a large number of tigers from the north from turn 3 to 6 or so and mostly cats on the right side for a while. After around turn 6 I think they have about even numbers in both and then I think it stays about even. Did anyone else have this happen or did the laguz just move funny for me?

edit: And as for whether or not it warrants this level of attention, well we have to talk about something, right? I just think that Mia could be higher than she is. It is good that Zihark is 3RKO by most things in part 1 when many others are 2HKO, but isn't Nolan 3HKO anyway? And we have Tauroneo and a couple others to worry about that are leagues beyond Zihark? See, the tier list doesn't seem to care much about how much experience units are getting or how much a kill actually benefits an individual character. Nor does it care that giving experience to people who are useless later on or don't need it doesn't really help us in the long run. If it did then Janaff and Ulki would be lower, Gatrie would be lower because a crown means he gets little experience. Also other people like Tormod and Tauroneo who are given credit for early game usefulness would be given less credit because of their habit of killing stuff and sucking experience off to 3-12 or 4-4 from 1-6 to 1-E. All the experience that they get in part 1 means a lower level Nolan, Jill, Sothe, Micaiah, and even Zihark.

So what good are the exp black holes?

The only saving grace is that they help us to finish on time, but if we are pushing the games only indication of how fast we should be past what it indicates already to let Zihark have his A support, then what do we care if Nailah and Muarim and Tauroneo and even Zihark himself help us to beat a chapter on time when we aren't finishing said chapters on time? So if we ignore this inconsistency then my point with all this is that the tier list gives them credit for all they do in their chapters so we have to recognize that they exist and are so much better than Zihark. We even have to give Nailah credit for killing things that I'd rather she left alive for someone else to kill. As such, Zihark becomes less useful even relative to his team than they are by a lot.

Edited June 24, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Vykan12]

Anyway, the problem with those numbers is that Zihark has a much higher chance of facing multiple enemies than Nolan does. We might want to multiply those death chances by the chances of seeing 3 or 4 enemies and compare them then. I don't feel like calculating it so if anyone else wants to that would be great.

The amount of enemies you face in 3-6 can be controlled so I don’t see where you’re getting that Zihark faces more enemies than Nolan does. I've seen the argument that Zihark's increased killing ability is responsible for that, but such a thing can also be controlled through his weapon choice. He can use Iron/bronze/no weapon at all if need be.

As for increasing the amount of attacks both face, that’s hurting Nolan more than Zihark. To pull a rather extreme example, let’s pit both vs 5 tiger attacks (141 hit).

Zihark: 33.47%

Nolan: 79.19%

Edited June 24, 2009 by Vykan12

[Progenitus]

So basically Zihark is just like everyone else in this chapter. He can do a bit more damage, sure, but even 70% fails sometimes if we really need him to kill something. So basically since I can't rely on it the only thing I can do is plan for him to be able to kill his target even if he doesn't pull off a crit. And without resolve we can never let him actually be at under half hit points or he might die. So basically when he dodges we don't need to heal him and when he doesn't we heal him. When Nolan is 3HKO'd we don't have to heal him when he is 2HKO'd by the coming enemies we do. Maybe we have to heal Nolan or Jill or Sothe a bit more often, but we have 2 healers and an NPC healer who can heal every other turn. I say every other because if we leave them on Roam all the time the stupid npcs will start getting injured and the priest will heal them, or they'll kill something we didn't want them to kill or whatever. If we alternate between roam and targetting the bottom left corner, we can make certain they can never actually attack something or get attacked and they won't mess us up. And if the priest is healing us no matter what (npcs are at full hp) then we can have some control over whom it is healing.

The less Micaiah/Laura have to heal a particular unit, the more they can heal other units or attack themselves. Micaiah in particular is pretty scary if we throw wrath on her and then sacrifice to 1 HP. She OHKOs everything easily with a crit. Laura's offense isn't as ridiculous but if her healing is not necessary (granted since so many people are taking damage that's unlikely), her potshots are still better than nothing, or she can torch in 3-6, etc.

So basically Zihark is just like everybody else except a little better on offence 50-70% of the time, which might mess up our plans, and might dodge a little more often than someone else is 3HKOd instead of 2. If Zihark gets a win in this chapter against people who aren't Volug (Z loses) or nubs (Z wins) I just don't see how it is a big win.

What's this "win" thing you're talking about? He doesn't need to beat everyone on the team to be useful. If he's roughly equal with people like Nolan and Aran (or even just slightly worse), that's more than enough to show that Zihark is indeed useful for beating the chapter.

It's like saying "well Titania is not clearly better than the likes of Gatrie and Shinon, so she's not that useful".

dondon

I suppose I underrated Zihark's crit/adept.

Then again Zihark dodges more often than Nolan, so the enemy would have to hit him, Zihark would have to accidentally kill it, and then another guy has to come and hit him as well. That's a long string of coincidences, at least when compared to Nolan as well (he OHKOs half as often, but he himself gets hit more than twice as often).

Edit: And again, unless it is a bronze sword, there is always a much higher chance of him getting himself killed, even if we take out adept, although at least the numbers are a lot less scary for iron sword or steel sword zihark blicking something if we remove adept, but then he has no advantage over Mia but avo in part 4 because he can't use two 15 capacity skills.

Okay, so I underrated Zihark's crit/adept, and if he wants to truly not accidentally kill anything he needs a bronze sword. At this point both Zihark and Nolan will be almost equal.

unfortunately whenever it's safe for Zihark to go into berserker mode (it seems dondon misinterpreted this part of my post, so I'll reiterate; if you can make sure that only one laguz will reach Zihark on enemy phase he will have no chances of dying if he's at full HP, and I said this is a common scenario) he can bust out uber swords and have his high chances of one rounding or killing or whatever some target. Nolan is already using his best weapon so he's just stuck with that.

Again, there's no way you can try to slice Zihark's offense as a disadvantage at all.

Edited June 24, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Narga_Rocks]

As dondon pointed out, even with an iron sword (or I think it was, considering an iron sword is the one that is 5HKO on cats) Zihark can kill stuff. So basically he is now unequipped and waving at a tiger or cat while it mauls him. (Okay, he can use a bronze sword and the description no longer fits, but it is too funny to not say.) Now, this is fine and all if we weren't celebrating his offensive contribution earlier on, because now that he has no offense (or almost no offense with his wicked 22 mt), Nolan and Jill and Sothe are contributing far more. If there is no bonus experience then is completing 3-6 in 14 turns superior to 16 or 17 turns? I guess if it isn't superior then Zihark is doing okay since he no longer dies, but oh well.

And the point about their chance of facing 3 or 4 wasn't let them face 5. The idea is that Nolan has a miniscule chance of actually facing more than 1 guy compared to Zihark's chance. For Nolan to face 3 enemies he needs to pull off an 8% crit twice. For Zihark to face 3 enemies, it is much more likely. So if we multiply Nolan's chance of dying from 2 enemies by the .08 chance of facing 2 enemies, and multiply Zihark's chance of dying from 2 enemies by his higher chance of facing 2 enemies (.3635), the numbers should get closer. Ditto for 3 enemies. And Nolan only has a .08% chance against 48hp/18def tigers while he is at 20/1. Nolan doesn't care about cats because Nolan at least can kill a cat and survive a tiger. As Nolan goes up in level, he gets closer to killing 50hp/20def tigers with a crit or with doubling if he gets 20 speed before 19 str or 20 str for the 52 hp/20 def tigers, but it will be a couple of levels before 19 str and by that point he can take 2 39 might tigers with a def support. (apparently he starts with 18 str and thus 36 might, oops, I don't know what I added to get 34). Anyway, the point is that they should be pretty close to the same chance of dying from 2 or 3 tigers (unless Z has both A Earth and Resolve) when you take into account their chance of actually facing that many tigers.

And another fun thing for 3-13 is that Nolan with Tarvos and A Aran can reach 3 HKO by 41 mt tigers at level 6 or 7 considering 41 hp and 15 def or 40 hp and 16 def is enough with an A Aran or Edward (or Leo, I guess). He is almost dead, but in either case a concoction is enough to get him to full, and so is mend with 20 Mag. He needs around level 9 with double Earth before he can pull that off: 42 HP, 17 Def. If either of those didn't make it he needs level 10 or more. Which is again why he might be better served by a def support, even if only for 3 levels. Whether he jumps the gap in 3-12 or not is debatable but unlikely.

Edit: Well, given Nolan's spot on the tier list, I'm not so much complaining about them being equal as if it is a bad thing, and if we ignore Mia beating Zihark offensively in part 4 by a lot given their relative levels, then tying Nolan in 3-6 shouldn't push him down. I'm still not convinced he ties instead of loses, but whatever. The problem of tying sothe can also be excused by the whole Sothe's position on the tier list thing, but he is mostly up there because of part 1. As for Aran, if he's tying him that's bad because Aran is a lot lower, but Zihark's offense is sorta there when you need it, if you are lucky.

My main problem again comes back to Gatrie and Mia should be higher. What does Zihark and Nolan have that make them better than Rafiel where Gatrie and Mia aren't? Since everyone seems to like Ulki and Janaff so much, why is Rafiel above them?

Although, to be honest I don't get the hype for Ulki and Janaff. Mostly its their inability to get a level pre part 4 outside of bonus exp and they can't even get past 30 exp to make it cheaper to do so. Plus it will take a while to get strike and Janaff is actually killing things for no gain while that's happening. He gets the same utility from hitting twice and not killing as he does from killing. I know they double and killing is nice, but when you consider there are 5 other laguz who are arguably better than they are (2 of which have canto + shove just like they do) and those that aren't laguz don't have the 2 range issue, I don't see why they would make it to endgame. And since I'm likely not bringing all 5 of the 4 royals and the pseudo royal to endgame, if I'm bringing 1 or 2 laguz, or even 3 or 4, why Ulki/Janaff instead of Tibarn and Naesala or something? And if they aren't going to endgame my endgame team is better if they don't kill stuff all the time. They are helpful and all, but someone please explain.

Edited June 24, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Progenitus]

Again, when is Zihark, or anyone really, ever going to face that many enemies in one enemy phase? Units on the left side will face like 1 attack on enemy phase since the laguz have lolmove in the water, and on the right side we have tons of thickets to abuse (which will boost Zihark's avoid and reduce his chances of dying anyway). If we use torch it'll be even easier to determine how many enemies are coming. It's not like the right side has 10 laguz backlogged ready to swarm a unit that goes on a killing spree, as long as you kill them as they come (which Zihark helps out with...!)

On a side note, I forgot that vantage and cancel existed, so we can throw them in there. Of course the effect is small (even Zihark with both equipped has ~6.76% chance of getting both to activate and the only guy with similar spd is Volug so everyone else's is even lower, although getting vantage to go off gives him a chance to kill before it even attacks), but it's certainly better than nothing, and it's not like anyone in the GMs really care to have those skills.

There's also bio to consider. if Zihark's in bad or worst bio and we're so worried about him dying, we can have him use a bronze sword (or even an iron sword should be safe, since bad bio does reduce his chances for adept), and if he's in good or best bio it's safer for him to use the better weapons since his avoid increases as well as his chances for adept (and cancel/vantage if we throw it on him). It helps that he's a type 1 Bio and spends a billion turns in worst or best so you can plan accordingly.

Edited June 24, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Vykan12]

As dondon pointed out, even with an iron sword (or I think it was, considering an iron sword is the one that is 5HKO on cats) Zihark can kill stuff.

If Zihark’s chances of ORKOing are 36.35% (not sure which weapon dondon was assuming), then that has to compound with his probability of being killed in 2 hits. Moreover, I highly doubt Zihark can kill tigers with an iron sword unless he does something outright freaky (double adept + a crit on each hit).

So if Zihark’s odds of dying in 2 hits are say, 0.4%, then his odds of dying when he’s trying to limit his attacking with an iron sword are about 0.07% (assuming cats make up roughly half of all enemies). That’s less than a 1/1000 chance. In fact, it's probably significantly less when considering things like untransformed laguz parking in front of you.

Edited June 24, 2009 by Vykan12

[Narga_Rocks]

I never said Zihark's would be bad. I'm just saying Nolan's might be closer to it. Obviously Zihark's chance of dying drop further. I suppose arguing anything under 1% is kinda pointless, but I'm wondering if Nolan gets there too. And arguing tigers helps Zihark more than Nolan anyway.

[dondon151]

If Zihark’s chances of ORKOing are 36.35% (not sure which weapon dondon was assuming), then that has to compound with his probability of being killed in 2 hits. Moreover, I highly doubt Zihark can kill tigers with an iron sword unless he does something outright freaky (double adept + a crit on each hit).

It's 19 str Zihark with Iron Sword.

[Yojinbo]

Two questions...

What is the main criterion for the rankings? Because I fail to see how Ike can possibly be higher ranked than Haar.

Why is Pelleas > Oliver? Olivar has the same availabilty but much better bases and joins with an A-level for staves ... he has realistic chances to use Fortify, unlike Pelleas, who needs to promote first (and still has only a B-rank). Not that is matters much but don't think Pelleas will ever have any kind of use. At least Oliver does have some...

[Mekkah]

Olivar has the same availabilty

Pelleas joins in 4-2, off the bat.

Oliver joins in 4-4, at pretty much the end.

Doesn't look the same to me.

[Colonel M]

Don't make me go through that ordeal with Pelleas > Oliver again.

[Narga_Rocks]

Actually, Pelleas is pretty funny in 4-5. I know anyone can use dragonfoe but unless you bring a marksman to Tibarn's group Pelleas is great because he can kill dragons at base level (with dragonfoe and fenrir) without being countered, even on HM. There is usually only 1 dragon with 12 speed in this chapter that he can't double, the rest have 10 speed and I've never seen one with enough hp+res to survive. Since there are only a few dragons and only 2 or 3 that are really in the way of getting to the boss, I don't think the exp loss of a non-endgame character killing them is a big deal. Since dragons are so slow and the boss has only one authority star pelleas has over 90 hit on all of them, too. Just make sure to have two uses left from your first fenrir in 4-2, and you can kill 3 dragons with no counters. If you do bring a Marksman in Tibarn's group, well, Shinon/Rolf/Leo will probably be the better choice for dragonfoe, but I don't see anyone else competing.

Since Oliver only has real use if he goes to endgame, and others can do things just as well as he can, I don't see why Oliver>Pelleas anyway. Laura should've had S Staves for a long time and Micaiah should start 4-E-1 with A and be just as close to S as Oliver, and just as close to SS Light as Oliver. Mist and Elincia can have S Staves by now too, but they do have lower magic so I guess his competition is only 2 or 3 people (rhys is the possible third).

[Shadow Mir]

Actually, Pelleas is pretty funny in 4-5. I know anyone can use dragonfoe but unless you bring a marksman to Tibarn's group Pelleas is great because he can kill dragons at base level (with dragonfoe and fenrir) without being countered, even on HM. There is usually only 1 dragon with 12 speed in this chapter that he can't double, the rest have 10 speed and I've never seen one with enough hp+res to survive. Since there are only a few dragons and only 2 or 3 that are really in the way of getting to the boss, I don't think the exp loss of a non-endgame character killing them is a big deal. Since dragons are so slow and the boss has only one authority star pelleas has over 90 hit on all of them, too. Just make sure to have two uses left from your first fenrir in 4-2, and you can kill 3 dragons with no counters. If you do bring a Marksman in Tibarn's group, well, Shinon/Rolf/Leo will probably be the better choice for dragonfoe, but I don't see anyone else competing.

Since Oliver only has real use if he goes to endgame, and others can do things just as well as he can, I don't see why Oliver>Pelleas anyway. Laura should've had S Staves for a long time and Micaiah should start 4-E-1 with A and be just as close to S as Oliver, and just as close to SS Light as Oliver. Mist and Elincia can have S Staves by now too, but they do have lower magic so I guess his competition is only 2 or 3 people (rhys is the possible third).

...You DO realize that this is talking about Hard mode, right...?

[Narga_Rocks]

Did you miss the part where I said there is one dragon he can't kill on HM? With Pelleas' 51 Mt, a dragon needs 71 hp and 16 res or 67 hp and 18 res. Sure, there exist plenty of them in 4-E-3, but they simply don't exist in 4-5 HM. They are that sad in 4-5. And even if they did exist, he would drop a dragon to less than 5 hp without a counter and anyone can ohko them. For enemies that can do so much damage, I'd rather not face a counter, even if they tend to have <40% hit against the other characters you'll be bringing. And if you have seen dragons that meet the requirements of staying alive, Pelleas might even be better for not killing them since now you get more experience for someone who is actually good and they didn't have to eat a counter thanks to Pelleas. Where's the issue here? The only dragons he isn't good against is ones with 12 speed, and since you are unlikely to see more than 1 of those and it may not even be near the centre island, who cares about it? Keep in mind that all dragons in 4-E-3 HM have 12 speed, and they are much higher level than the ones in 4-5. It is unlikely you will see very many 12 speed dragons in 4-5.

Edited June 24, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[-Cynthia-]

I was on vacation, I come back to moar Zihark/Mia.

Since Red Fox seems to be busy with other matters right now, it might be a good idea for someone to repost the tiier thread so if a convincing argument is made the tier list can actually be changed. I'll do it, or someone else (not smash) can.

[Vykan12]

@Narga: Beastfoe in 4-5 is better suited to someone who can actually apply it for more than 5-10 attacks. For instance, a third tier Tauroneo with a silver poleax would have 70 effective Mt, enough to OHKO cats and ravens while ORKOing everything else.

[Narga_Rocks]

It's not so much Zihark v Mia. More like Zihark v everyone. If Zihark is getting so much credit for how he does relative to his team in Part 1 and 3 and that is why he is so high on the tier list, but there are 3 or 4 people who do about as well as he does in part 3 and he competes with Tauroneo and volug and sothe (losing to T and V, tying S) in 1-6 and Tormod and Muarim in 1-7 and Nailah and BK in 1-E (Nailah in 1-8 doesn't count) then where is this better than his team stuff that is pushing him so high happening? He loses offense to everybody important in part 4 anyway, so what's the big deal about Zihark?

Edit: I'm giving him dragonfoe. There are like 3 dragons in the way and he can kill those 3 dragons. I am a big fan of Gatrie with Beastfoe, or Brom if I raised him instead. But since it is hardmode, definitely Gatrie. As for the ravens and hawks, anyone else you are trying to raise that doesn't use bows or has access to wind is a good idea for birdfoe. It helps if they can ohko the things, but even if not they are obviously better than Pelleas at it and I know this. The point for Pelleas and dragonfoe is that he is in Tibarn's group anyway, can hide from enemies in 4-2 and never even fight anything if you want since he misses so much, and can even use fenrir 3 times in 4-2 without hurting him in 4-5 anyway. He is basically an rng proof dragonkiller we don't have to heal afterwards.

But I will admit, if you bring shinon I say he is better with dragonfoe. But only a marksman or someone who gets 0% hit rates against dragons is as safe to use as Pelleas for this, and giving him 3 kills isn't going to ruin our team for endgame. And as for letting him use thunder, he needs 9 more magic before he can bolting kill and anything 1-2 range will just get him killed.

Edited June 24, 2009 by Narga_Rocks