OMG it's a tier list

[Colonel M]

I think Gatrie > Janaff should be resparked again, especially since Gatrie still has the availability going for him and such. Yeah I know not a solid argument but... Narga made a lot of them.

Also agreeing Haar and Ike > Reyson.

[Florete]

Gatrie is already > Janaff. Unless you were suggesting Janaff > Gatrie.

[Colonel M]

Oh, nevermind then.

Though my second point still stands.

[Narga_Rocks]

I'm sorry, I must have missed the part in the discussion where Janaff wasn't beating Mia for the entire time they existed save for maybe a few chapters, in varying degrees, and that Mia's extra chapters of availability weren't enough to overcome it, especially since several of those chapters are her crappiest chapters in the game.

No wait, I didn't miss it. It doesn't exist.

Wow, what an amazing response. I'm in awe of your ability to ignore reality. Oh, I've got it:

Haar > Tanith, but look what I can do:

I'm sorry, I must have missed the part in the discussion where Tanith wasn't beating Haar for the entire time they existed save for maybe a few chapters, in varying degrees, and that Haar's extra chapters of availability weren't enough to overcome it, especially since several of those chapters are his crappiest chapters in the game.

No wait, I didn't miss it. It doesn't exist.

If you don't back it up with anything, you prove nothing. Mia's offence is still actually fine in 3-P and 3-1, by the way, and that's something I outline in the post Int made a link to. There's also another one even earlier in which I compare her with the rest of the GMs, and she's still top 3 or 4 offensively there. Sure, durability issues, but enemies are spaced around enough and there are plenty of things in the way. Then from 3-3 on to 3-5 she's near the top again and by 3-4 her durability is fine and even in 3-2 and 3-3 she can still apply a fair amount of her offence. If those chapters aren't enough to build big leads over units that don't exist, then it seems you think only Ike and Haar could possibly gain anything positive from early part 3.

And she wins 3-E, 4-1, 4-4, 4-E-1, 4-E-3, 4-E-4, 4-E-5. Now, I could back it up with more information, but I don't see the point since you won't read it and most other people seem to have accepted Mia's current position. He has 3-7, 3-8, 3-10, 3-11 where she's not ORKOing as much, except he's still missing things without an energy drop anyway. She wins in more chapters than he does just when they are both around.

Also, gauge:

The unit I had with the most kills had 13 chapters plus endgame for availability. So call it 16 instead of 15 based on number of enemies since I did basically rout 4-E-2 and 4-E-3. That unit had 208 battles, and I had another two units with over 200. Anyway, no idea the number of battles other people have, but that makes ~13 per chapter.

Mia kills 9 out of 13 of them. Also, she's doing >70% damage to the ones she doesn't KO. So ~12 enemies worth of damage. 9 are dead, the other 4 are killable by almost anything.

Let's look at Janaff getting 13 kills, and pretend he's ORKOing all of them when in reality he isn't.

1:

pp: grass, 15 gauge.

ep: nothing

2:

pp: nothing. 23 gauge.

ep: nothing

3:

pp: 30 gauge, kill #1, 27 gauge.

ep: nothing

4:

pp: 23 gauge, kill #2, 20 gauge.

ep: kills #3 and #4, 14 gauge.

5:

pp: 10 gauge, revert, grass, 25 gauge.

ep: nothing

6:

pp: 30 gauge, kill #5, 27 gauge.

ep: kills #6 and #7, 21 gauge.

7:

pp: 17 gauge, kill #8, 14 gauge.

ep: kill # 9, 11 gauge.

8:

pp: 7 gauge, revert, grass, 22 gauge.

ep: nothing

9:

pp: 30 gauge, kill #10, 27 gauge.

ep: kills #11 and #12, 21 gauge.

10:

pp: 17 gauge, kill #13, 14 gauge.

So he missed out on 4 turns in which Mia could attack on player phase.

Anyway, his gauge means that there are times he's grassing on player phase and Mia is attacking mages and other units with 2 range options. Janaff doesn't. Mia does more to speed things up because she can go after these things and allow units to use their stronger 1 range weapons on enemy phase because little or no enemies will have 2 range. Janaff just grasses and sits there on enemy phase and if he's in range of any of the 2 range guys that aren't dead because Janaff < Mia then his gauge issue gets even worse and he can't get as many attacks as easily. Also bow users hurt his durability and even the ones without crossbows should be avoided a bit. And the difference between them before Mia starts ORKOing warriors and halbs and paladins isn't so great anyway because I'd say killing mages on player phase and leaving a couple of halbs and warriors alive is more important than Janaff being able to kill on enemy phase more often but not being able to kill those 2 range guys on player phase and causing multiple units to equip 1-2 range weapons or allowing those units to have full hitpoints. Basically, his "wins" in 3-7 to 3-11 aren't even all that great anyway, if they even exist.

@Red Fox, if smash thinks Janaff has a shot at top 5 then that likely means he says Janaff > Zihark, in which case I feel a little dirty for suggesting Janaff > Zihark in the first place. Anyway:

I'm not so sure about Zihark losing to Vika. She's locked to 25 atk, and Zihark can beat that with a simple Steel Sword. She beats him durably...transformed.

I think he also doubles some stuff that Sothe, Volug, and Tormod miss out on.

Vika in 1-7 can go up ledges and go 8 panels total. Zihark can go 5. She ORKOs a lot of things anyway and 2RKOs most of the rest. Also, flight is big in 1-8 for attacking things in the east, and since it's a route it's necessary.

As for Volug, yeah, he's annoying when 16 AS enemies start appearing. Tormod however is 100% ORKOing bandits in 1-8 with a forged fire, something Zihark can't do with a forged iron. He's not even 3HKOing more than half the bandits with that weapon. Also all those <=16 speed enemies in 1-E are KOd by a forged fire, even the armors.

Volug is still outdistancing Zihark in 1-7 and 1-E, and with S during 1-E he's at least ORKOing lots of things he doubles. The GMs don't even have units like Muarim, Nailah, and BK, so in 1-E when Zihark may start beating Volug and Tormod and Sothe in some ways, he's still getting crushed anyway.

In 1-8, Sothe and his forged iron are important on the boss and any other 2 range enemies for speeding things up.

Back to 1-7, Tormod can fire up the ledge and have a 111 hit rate after the -50 from shooting up a ledge with a forged thunder since he'll be on best bio on turn 3. Typically one of the two mages on the ledge will be on worst, but even if not 80% listed is nothing to sneeze at. 92.2 true, or ~85% chance of killing. Considering that's basically the most important action in the entire chapter if you want to get all the soldiers out in time to seize on turn 10, Tormod's already better than Zihark just from that. A wind edge isn't coming close, and there is no telling what Zihark's bio is at that time. Anyway, as for the rest of the chapter enemies come in ones and twos except in the northwest where there are 4 that don't move until you get in range of the armor, then all 4 are willing to move if someone is in range. Zihark isn't comparing well to Tormod and Muarim with all the ORKOing they can pull off, but he beats Vika offensively except for her move range and Volug is still way more durable.

Against units like Vika and Volug and Tormod he's doing similarly to what Janaff is doing against the top of the GMs anyway. The trouble comes in 1-6 with Taur and Sothe's superior 2 range (matters more in 1-6-2 than 1-6-1, but still matters in both) and a key moment in 1-7 vs. Tormod as well as Muarim's existance in the same chapter and Sothe's 2 range in 1-8 and Nailah/Muarim/BK in 1-E.

S Strike might be a bit much. He needs 35 rounds doubling to get it, which is 7 per map. That doesn't sound like a lot, but due to Tear and finishing blows, he won't always double. Somewhere in the middle of 4-P/1/2 probably, or at least by the start of 4-3/4/5.

That all depends on whether or not he has a drop. With a drop, there is no reason for tear or adept or attacking an injured enemy, so it is just 7 per map. Pretty easy, really. With reverting he can have 6 pretty easy just on player phase, enemy phase increases it. Assuming he only has one of tear or adept, it's only a 34% chance of just getting 1 hit and a 66% chance of getting two, so 1.66 wexp per battle (other units can KO a weakened enemy, why waste Janaff on something Mist can KO?). 43 battles to get S strike. ~8.6 per map. Still not that hard. Even my Ilyana pulled that off (~9.6 per on average).

Well, Zihark has Wyrmslayers. And terrain bonuses, I guess.

Dragons are best killed by Pelleas in 4-5, really, since they give less experience than the other enemies due to being lower level and since it frees up other units to attack other things. Units not named Pelleas w/ dragonfoe generally don't ORKO the things anyway so there isn't much point in them trying. Even in 4-5 Zihark isn't 2HKOing the red dragons with a wyrmslayer anyway. I suppose thickets help him and not Janaff, but if he has double earth it doesn't much matter anyway.

You can give Zihark stuff as well. Toss him a Robe or Shield and now he's likely beating Sothe and Tormod, so that only really leaves Volug, Muarim, Nailah, and BK. And they aren't all around for each one of his maps, they come one-by-one, and, with the exception of Volug, disappear, unlike Janaff's competition who's always there.

I'm not sure about giving him a robe, but I'm okay with him getting a shield. Still, I don't think his claim on these things is any stronger than other DB members' claims. Janaff has a very strong claim on either a drop or bexp for tear. Well, after looking at some of his abilities I'm not sure how good his claim on the drop is afterall since he's already KOing so much already with just an Ulki support. Still, I think he's got a good one because he can KO even more stuff in part 3 and it'll help lots in part 4. And Janaff compares much better to Ike and the rest than Zihark does, and still competes in his other chapters with someone. It doesn't matter that one chapter it's Nailah and another it's Tauroneo. Janaff with 40 mt has the same mt as Ike could have without a Mia support, at least until Ragnell. Also, he's ORKOing more than Gatrie if Gatrie missed 26 speed and Titania still misses a bit in 3-7 and 3-8 and 3-10 until her promotion in ~3-11. Really, he's not doing as bad as you'd think.

I don't really like assigning Energy Drops because there are very few units who consistenly ORKO (Ike and...Shinon?), so pretty much anyone sees good benefit from one. It's not like Robes and Shields where units exist who'd see practically no improvement from them.

But he becomes point and kill with one. That's not something to brush aside with the fact other units benefit too, since giving someone else the drop means there are less units around that will 100% ORKO that halb or warrior sitting there. Sure, Janaff can only do it on 6 out of 10 turns, or fewer if you want him to have more enemy phase than I gave him, but it's still something we wouldn't have at all if we gave the 3-5 drop to Oscar or Nephenee. I think he's got a better claim on it than Zihark does on any stat booster we can give him.

Besides, Zihark has the brave sword already, which is something Ike might enjoy on swordmasters or Mia might enjoy on things she'll 4HKO with it when before she 3HKOd with a forged steel sword/steel blade. The killing edge they don't want, though, but it doesn't give Zihark 100% ORKO anyway. Also he can have adept in 1-6 to 1-8 if you want, but that doesn't give 100% like Sothe has at range with a forged iron knife on many things and also a fair number of other units are 100% ORKOing.

Anyway, Zihark needs the brave sword more than any stat booster if he wants to stay > Janaff in my opinion, so what's your look on the cost of Zihark using the sword?

[Florete]

Anyway, Zihark needs the brave sword more than any stat booster if he wants to stay > Janaff in my opinion, so what's your look on the cost of Zihark using the sword?

For part 1, considering the only competition is Edward (and lolMeg), nothing. For part 3, ship it off, but I don't see how it would help him so greatly there anyway.

[Narga_Rocks]

Anyway, Zihark needs the brave sword more than any stat booster if he wants to stay > Janaff in my opinion, so what's your look on the cost of Zihark using the sword?

For part 1, considering the only competition is Edward (and lolMeg), nothing. For part 3, ship it off, but I don't see how it would help him so greatly there anyway.

Is the last part of the last sentence just about Zihark and the brave in part 3, or about him using the brave at all?

For part 1, I'm just talking about the 100% KO. The thing is that Tormod and other units are pulling 100% ORKOs and beating or tying him defensively. In order for Zihark to get as close to his competition as Janaff is to his, Zihark needs the brave in part 1 otherwise he doesn't ORKO. Take the armors in 1-E. Some have 36 hp and 17 def. 4 out of 7, in fact. and 1 out of 3 of the reinforcements. So 5 out of 10, total. Base Zihark has 26 mt with the brave sword and ORKOs those 5 guys. That's not bad, considering S strike Volug is doing 26 damage out of 36 hp on those same armors. Also, even the strongest with 37 hp and 18 def take 32 out of 37 from Zihark leaving them with 5 compared to the 13 they'd have remaining after Volug. Other instances involve the bandits in 1-8 that are ORKOd by Zihark with a brave and with their hp/def/res that's not easy for anyone else (except Nailah and Muarim). Well, he doesn't get the 17 def bandits, but oh well, there's only 3 out of 11.

In 1-7, a brave ORKOs all the armors, and a max mt iron forge is required for the fighters, or he can just 3 hit with the brave.

Basically, the brave sword will go through a fair number of uses in part 1 to make Zihark ORKO stuff. Even if we restrict it to only things a max mt iron forge (and in 1-E a max mt steel forge) won't kill, 4 hitting with the thing means 10% of the sword's life. Well, he has a low chance of critting, 21 crit on ~8 dodge enemies. So 2 hits minimum, 4 hits maximum.

13% crit, and if he crits in the first two hits he only uses two uses.

If he doesn't crit in the first two but does on the third it is three uses.

24.31% chance of two uses.

9.8397% chance of three uses. (.7569 * .13 = .098397)

65.8503% chance of four uses. (no crit in the first 3 hits, adept is not relevant since the sword would take uses anyway)

2 x .2431 + 3 x .098397 + 4 x .658502 = 3.415399 uses per attack.

If he attacks 11 enemies with the brave sword then the sword has 2 or 3 uses remaining and can't be used anymore.

If he only uses it like 4 or 5 times then he's not getting much out of it and is still losing offence to anything that ORKOs. If he uses it 11 times, then Ike and Mia can't use it until it gets Hammerne'd in 3-3 and takes the turn of a staff user to do it and needs them to be brought close enough. Or it doesn't get hammerne'd till later.

Anyway, for Zihark to use it enough to reduce his loss vs. Nailah and Muarim and BK and even Tormod enough for me to not mind Zihark > Janaff, I figure he'd have to use it at least 8 times, possibly 11. Which means Zihark causes either a hammerne use or for the brave sword to not be usable until 4-E-3. I'm just asking how big a cost that is, since we do have the hammerne to be used and I never really need it or the brave sword much anyway so it probably isn't too big a cost.

Oh, and he'd have to have the brave switched out to an iron forge or killing edge or steel forge to prevent unnecessary usage on enemy phase or it burns through even more uses.

And he could benefit from it in part 3 since he'd be able to KO most cats once he pulls 24 speed, but I don't think he needs to be able to do that in order to be > Janaff, so I agree he's not preventing Mia and Ike from holding onto the brave sword in part 3, I'm just saying he takes uses away.

[Florete]

Anyway, for Zihark to use it enough to reduce his loss vs. Nailah and Muarim and BK and even Tormod enough for me to not mind Zihark > Janaff, I figure he'd have to use it at least 8 times, possibly 11. Which means Zihark causes either a hammerne use or for the brave sword to not be usable until 4-E-3. I'm just asking how big a cost that is, since we do have the hammerne to be used and I never really need it or the brave sword much anyway so it probably isn't too big a cost.

What else is the Hammerne generally used on? I almost never use it, but if I did, the Brave Sword, Axe, and Lance would be my first picks. So, to me, using the Brave Sword for a while in part 1 isn't that much of a negative. I don't know how you incorporated Janaff's BEXP in that, but I'd probably put those two things at about the same level. If either one were to "cost" more, it would probably be Janaff's BEXP, but I'm not exactly up for going into major detail on that.

[Narga_Rocks]

Anyway, for Zihark to use it enough to reduce his loss vs. Nailah and Muarim and BK and even Tormod enough for me to not mind Zihark > Janaff, I figure he'd have to use it at least 8 times, possibly 11. Which means Zihark causes either a hammerne use or for the brave sword to not be usable until 4-E-3. I'm just asking how big a cost that is, since we do have the hammerne to be used and I never really need it or the brave sword much anyway so it probably isn't too big a cost.

What else is the Hammerne generally used on? I almost never use it, but if I did, the Brave Sword, Axe, and Lance would be my first picks. So, to me, using the Brave Sword for a while in part 1 isn't that much of a negative. I don't know how you incorporated Janaff's BEXP in that, but I'd probably put those two things at about the same level. If either one were to "cost" more, it would probably be Janaff's BEXP, but I'm not exactly up for going into major detail on that.

Well, I don't know how to analyze Janaff's cost, since he can take one of three things and is a pretty good candidate for any of them. Well, he's basically third for adept behind Ulki and Mia, but he's probably #1 for the 3-5 drop and for bexp it is hard to analyze the cost. However, he only needs one out of three, whereas Zihark needs one of one.

But you are probably right about the brave weapons. Still, the brave lance could be brought over for the GMs part 3 and Gatrie could kill swordmasters with it. 169 hit is good for 100% on equal bios against swordmasters until 3-10. On worst while the enemy is on best is of course lower than that, but it still isn't horrid. Also he's also ORKOing generals in part 3 with it as well, and with 25 higher hit than with a hammer. Still has 22.25 x 2 + 16.5 + 15 + 8 + 85 = 169 hit which is 100% on generals unless he is 3 or 4 steps lower on bio than they are. Brave axe is with the DB, so I suppose one hammerne on the brave sword and one on the brave lance still leaves one for something later. 5 uses of fortify and 3 uses of the ashera staff should be enough for 4-E, really, but having hammerne for the fortify staff does give more freedom.

Using the brave sword extensively cuts down Zihark's loses in part 1 enough that he's probably not doing worse compared to his team than Janaff is compared to his (at least not by a large amount), thanks to the gauge issues and no two range. Zihark is less durable, in some cases far less durable, but Janaff still has gauge issues and less availability.

Unless someone else has something else to consider I'd say it's close but I don't mind Zihark staying above all that much. I'm not sure if he is in fact better, but I suppose it's fine.

[nflchamp]

Apologies for asking in the midst of Janaff vs. Zihark, but smash's topic actually brought something up for me.

How long do we take in 2-E? I mean, we can beat the chapter on any turn we want to, right? So shouldn't we end the chapter once the remaining gains (EXP, items, etc.) no longer outweigh playing the remaining turns?

[Interceptor]

Strictly speaking, I think that the items alone don't pay for themselves in turns later (Draco? nice, but not going to save you a ton of time), but the items combined with the EXP just might.

On the highly-likely to increase efficiency front:

- Haar does actually benefit from training here, as one of your best units.

- Nullify is quite useful for Dracos/Hawks in the coming chapters.

On the sort-of-likely to increase efficiency front:

- Nephenee is extremely hard to use if she doesn't get EXP here. But, Upper Mid is Upper Mid.

- Brom benefits from CEXP somewhat.

- Energy Drop here gives you one ahead of the 3-5 Drop. But, +2 STR is not some super-amazing highly contested item.

- the Silver Greatlance is somewhat far afield. Does not require a clear, but requires a flier or a CRK.

On the frosting front, aka doesn't do a whole lot:

- Elincia will be much better in Part 4 if she gets a couple of levels here.

- Mordecai/Lethe can get a head start on Strike.

- Dracoshield

- five coins

- hidden Arms Scroll

We give up all of those things if we blick Ludveck on turn 2. We give up a bunch if we rush the chapter and kill him pretty quickly. None of those things are individually making a huge difference, but the weight of several of them can, in my opinion.

Edited September 7, 2009 by Interceptor

[nflchamp]

Well, from what I'm guessing, in the range of the turns 9-10 we're going to be able to get the items we really want (Nullify, Energy Drop, maybe Silver Greatlance and Draco if you planned it well) even if we take our time. And you'll have gained a fair amount of EXP as well. I don't know if the last 5-6 turns are worth playing out if we're not going to get anything substantial from them.

So I guess I'm really asking when everyone thinks the extra EXP stops being worth the turns (if ever).

[grandjackal]

Well I'm sure Nephenee and Calill would certainly appreciate it, along with Elincia. Lethe wouldn't mind the exposure for strike level. We got other stuff we'd like to gather anyways.

I see no reason not to take our time with it, unless we're deciding to speed run.

What ruins some of these FE games is just they give you people that can just do too much on their own to make doing the chapter normally a waste of time (Seth, FE9 Ti, Haar).

At least here the game sort of justifies it in the sense of "I don't want to use people in this part, I'll just fastforward to get to the part I want to get to, as it has the characters I actually want to bother with using".

[Zkirsche]

So I guess I'm really asking when everyone thinks the extra EXP stops being worth the turns (if ever).

I wouldn't say limiting someone's exp is the most efficient thing to do. I always thought of efficiency being full bexp + as much cexp as possible as easy as possible. There's no real benefit from ending a chapter early like this, it just hurts later on when units are weaker from lacking teh cexp (albeit a small amount).

[charmander6000]

Yeah unless you don't want to use any of the units in part 2 later on there isn't much reason to end it earlier. Even Haar doesn't mind the extra level or two in this level.

[Interceptor]

So I guess I'm really asking when everyone thinks the extra EXP stops being worth the turns (if ever).

I wouldn't say limiting someone's exp is the most efficient thing to do. I always thought of efficiency being full bexp + as much cexp as possible as easy as possible. There's no real benefit from ending a chapter early like this, it just hurts later on when units are weaker from lacking teh cexp (albeit a small amount).

I'm of two minds about this. I can see the value of your point of view, but if the tier list ever takes turn counts into consideration (even when the game does not, such as in 2-E), that's a game-changer. I am fine with either way, but they cannot possibly co-exist in the same tier list.

I should remind people that if turn counts become really important even when they don't matter (like in Part 3 DB side), anticipate a flushing sound as DB members south of Volug go for a trip down the list. The reason for this is that going Easy Button on Part 3 does not actually require you to train any of the tier 1 retards, which imo sharply decreases their worth.

[RPGslave]

Hi guys, new to the discussion here but I've (kinda) kept up the discussion, give or take a few hundred or so pages. Anyways I was wanting to throw some things out there.

First of all, I don't think Reyson should be in the top spot. He is the only heron that has to worry about his gauge, and until it fills up he is vigoring the least amount of units of the heron siblings. Rafiel can always vigor four units at a time, and only has to worry about his movement. He lacks availibility, which can't be fixed, but the boots/celerity can help his movement problems. I think the herons should be closer together in general, but I don't think any of them deserve to be in top. I mostly say that because the herons have to be defended and they aren't clutch like say, Volug. This is a huge can of worms, though.

My other problems are in upper mid, where I think Nephenee should move below Micaiah and Mordecai could move above Oscar. Micaiah has sacrifice/thani/staves, all of which make her an extremely valuable unit to the Suck Brigade. Sacrifice allows Laura to go heal someone else, gives Micaiah exp, and allows Laura to heal her for even more exp, while obtaining staves upon promotion is always helpful. Thani allows Micaiah to do something that no other SB member can do: one hit armors/cavaliers (which are many of the part 1 bosses).

As for Mordecai vs. Oscar... Mordecai has insane HP/defense against Oscar's mount, weapons, and earth affinity. Mordecai has gauge issues to worry about, but Olivi grasses are readily available, while the resources to fix Oscar's offense aren't. Not only that, there are many chapters where having a horse is a disadvantage. As for his supports, he's most likely to get Titania because of their similar movement ranges, but I don't think that support gives him attack, which is what he really needs.

I guess that's it. Feel free to pick this apart, lol!

Edit/Note to self: My heron arguement doesn't really address their efficiency, which is what this tier list is about. >_>

Edited September 10, 2009 by RPGslave

[Jaybee]

I pulled up Micaiah > Neph recently, but it was brushed aside :( I definitely agree with you on that.

Oscar can use something called a forge with +might. With this he can start slightly helping his Atk for a while. And yeah, I think Oscar would be better off with Boyd, though Oscar has more mv...

Also, hi there.

[Progenitus]

I agree with RPGslave on all three points.

[Ether]

I can agree with that as well(although raisin brand can probably stay in top,just below Ike/haar/maybe Volug)

[Colonel M]

I think you know my opinion on Raisin Brand.

For Oscar, there are a lot of Atk supports in the GMs (Mia, Mist, Mordecai, Rhys I guess, Boyd) but I don't think it's enough to solve his Atk issues altogether. Wouldn't disagree to Mordecai > Oscar myself.

[Florete]

Mia is among my top 10 favorite units in this game. Aside from Mist, she's likely my favorite of the Greil Mercenaries. However, I'm still having a hard time seeing her > Gatrie. So here comes the response to Narga's Mia vs. Gatrie carpet bomb.

In 3-P and 3-1, Gatrie wins offence if he nabs Boyd's killer axe, otherwise they about tie. Gatrie doubles 4 guys in 2 entire chapters, so they are about even damagewise if Gatrie just takes a steel greatlance. He does a bit more in one hit on halbs, but she does more on the rest of the non-general enemies. She has crit, though, and some enemies (even a few warriors) are even 4HKOd or 3HKOd by the wo dao, so she has a good shot of instablicking even here. With the enemies she can pull out her wo dao taken into consideration, it cancels out the loss vs. Generals and she wins by a bit. When she 5 hits with the wo dao, though, she needs her steel sword. With this thing, she has ~9 crit or something so Gatrie is more likely to crit in one swing with the killer than Mia is in 2 swings. So if Gatrie nabs the killer axe from Boyd he wins. It means Titania and Boyd can't use it, though. Boyd has the possibility of bonds with Oscar and Rolf, so it might not be a good thing for Gatrie to take it.

Then there is all those annoying thickets in 3-P. Mia can go through those pretty good, and everyone that has shove (even Mist) can shove Mia. There are precisely 0 units that can shove Gatrie. He can be picked up and moved and dropped by Titania and Oscar, but that means neither did anything else that turn. Mia just takes one unit. Also, the horse units have issues with thickets. Gatrie's durability lead is mitigated by the number of enemies he can reasonably reach. In 3-1, Mia might have more str and 4 hit more things with the wo dao, but Gatrie is really good with the lower right house and can take on like 4 guys at once. I'd have to say Gatrie wins by a little here. All in all, they about tie 3-P and 3-1 simply because of those annoying thickets in 3-P and Boyd's higher skill and bonds.

Problem #1: Dodging durability. Gatrie's leads: 10 HP, 11 Def, 3 Res. Mia's leads: 19 avoid, 3 Dodge. It takes all of 30 physical atk and 25 magic atk to 2HKO Mia. 9/13 enemies before meeting up with the Laguz reach that. The lowest is 26, which still 3HKOs Mia. The problem? Those 30+ guys have 4 that are 33+ atk, which means they do at least 20 damage, so everybody except the Javelin Halberdier can still kill her.

So it takes all of 2 enemies for Mia to face a real chance of death. Gatrie? The enemy that can deal him the greatest amount of damage, Fire Sages, deal 14, a 4HKO. A more average number, say 30 physical atk, is an 8HKO. So it generally takes ~6 enemies before Gatrie faces real chances of death.

So what does this mean? Well, let's say we give them their maximum safe exposure. Mia gets attacked, gets lucky and crits, and the guy is dead. Cool. Gatrie charges as far ahead as he can because nothing will kill him, takes on only 4 enemies because Ashera hates him and he never got to crit, and left them all with <50% HP. He can kill one on his player phase while Rolf, Soren, and Rhys take out the trash, and Mia needs a heal, and Gatrie's full turn performance turns out greater than Mia's.

So Gatrie wins 3-P and 3-1.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and Swordmasters have listed Crit on her. Well, they have more on Gatrie, but they don't kill Gatrie either. No one that can Crit Gatrie can even do half his HP.

EDIT2: Wtf kind of typo was that?

So, Mia wins offence for 3-2 and 3-3. With a 70% proc rate with a critforge and adept vs. Gatrie and his 20 speed I think it's obvious. He wins defence, though, since Mia has only a C Ike right now. Gatrie's likely getting one level in 3-P and 3-1 combined, though his base level is only three higher than hers, so he might have a shot at 2 levels. With just one, he has a fair chance at 21 speed but not guaranteed. With it, he improves on all the 17 speed enemies, though a bunch of them are mages she stomps on anyway. A few paladins he can now defeat as well, but I think she still wins by a bit. Especially considering she is one of two units that can effectively use wyrmslayers to ORKO those dragon masters.

Largely the same deal. You know all those Paladin reinforcements that appear from the northeast? Gatrie could take a hit from all of them (5) at base level and live. In fact, he'd still have >50% of his HP. ~64% to be precise. Let's say Mia has gotten 2 levels and gotten HP and Def on both. It takes all of 3 attacks from these guys to kill her. It's exact (12x3 to her 36 HP), but unless you want to assume she can get 3 levels or a stat booster, she can't possibly be any better.

As for Dragonmasters, yeah, she probably wins against them. If she only takes one per turn, that is. It takes a hit each from the 4 strongest of them to kill Gatrie. Mia takes 2 from the weakest and her death chances appear.

Anyway, with sparingly using storm swords only when there is a significant number of ranged units she'll be fine. It lasts a fair while and she'll grab another one in 3-11 from Tanith. There is a chance of disarm/stealing another along the way, but obviously not guaranteed.

Storm Sword? From where? 3-2? Good luck getting the General to equip his Steel Sword. The first otherwise is in 3-6, or halfway through 3-7 if Mia wants it.

She wins 3-3, especially since there is a nice thicket path on the right side and horses to release and stuff to KO and clear out so your main force along the west side isn't overwhelmed when they approach the boss. The thickets turn her chances of dying into a joke.

I'll have to concede 3-3. It's the one place where Gatrie's mobility really becomes a problem.

In 3-4, he takes a long time to get anywhere. She takes a while, too, but at least she can be shoved by 6 move units that have nothing better to do once they've taken their full move. Or she can help try to save the laguz in the middle ledge area and attack mages, which Gatrie likely can't get to with any semblence of speed. Anyway, she now has a B Ike and likely 5 levels since she started in 3-P, so 37.5 hp, 19.25 str, 29 skl, 30 spd, 19.75 luck, 15 def, 9.25 res.

Gatrie can just go to the left.

110 avo with a B Ike. 34 mt with her forge. 3HKOd by 28 mt to 34 mt. 4HKOd or better by less than 28. 2HKOd by 35 and more. (technically one hit by 52 mt, but c'mon). Number of enemies with that much mt: 6. Their hit? 130, 130, 117, 112, 112, 115. Let's just say they aren't likely to hit her, considering that 117 is pulling 1.05% real. The 130s are only pulling 8.20% real. And those both need to be reduced due to her chance of saying "sucka" and they'll end up with around 6.9%. Or she can attack one of them on player phase and it has around 4%.

Problem #2: Supports. What if Ike is not in range? Her avoid drops to 95. Suddenly, that 1.05% real becomes 9.9% real. That 8.2% becomes 24.85%. Her chance of dying in 3 hits from that: 15.6%. And all it takes is for both of them to attack her on enemy phase, at least one left alive, and then her player phase for that to happen. Gatrie's chance of death in 3 hits from the same guys? 0%. Hell, with just +1 Def or HP from base level, he can take 4 hits and live. And he doesn't need any supports to say so. And this is among the highest atk on the map.

And then biorythm attacks Mia. Let's say the enemy has 2 biorythm levels on Mia, something like her in Normal and the enemy on Best. Even with Ike in range, her support is pretty much reduced to +5 avoid, which is still better than my above numbers. However, take Ike 4+ spaces away and/or be worse on Biorythm and it gets even worse than my above numbers. Do it all to Gatrie and he might miss once or twice, but he isn't dying, and I'd rather miss than die.

3-7, river.

3-7 is pretty much a self-improvement chapter. Whatever she kills is only going to close the level gap between her and Gatrie, but Gatrie can still get some stuff, and Reyson can help. Also, I should mention that Mordecai can Shove/Smite/Rescue Gatrie, and Kyza and Haar can Rescue him. It's very little, but it's worth noting.

Since the rest of your part 3 was pretty much overview, I'll do the same thing I just did. Gatrie can run off and do shit on his own. He doesn't need a support partner unless he needs hit, but that's what forges are for. I shouldn't need to explain why +25 Hit on a forge is reasonable, and he also has a decent chance of getting Hit from a Coin, since the Arrow is the most common card, and the Triple Arrow, Soldier, and Goddess cards give Hit as well. So at least 25, but up to 45 extra Hit from a Coin, and it's more common than the two things Mia wants, which are MT and Crit. Especially Crit, which is actually the least likely individual boost.

By the way, he's a decent supporter as well. Titania, Oscar, Boyd, Mia(!) and Nephenee are probably the ones most likely to want a Def support, and Titania, Boyd, and Haar can all have Hit issues at times. Boyd is probably his best option for various reasons that I'd prefer to not go into great detail on, btu Boyd respects the bonuses as well, and the only better option I can think of for him would be Oscar, but that has some problems as well. All in all, I'd say Gatrie ends up helping Boyd more than Mia helps Ike.

I'm getting tired, so I'll just say she beats Gatrie in part 4, since she likely does anyway. It isn't huge, since Gatrie still does well, but it's there.

But there's another thing I want to look into. I was fine with everything given to Mia, but what happens if she's off the team? We're left with:

Ike support

Adept for anyone

Vantage for anyone

A bit more money I suppose, but that's like nothing

No busty Swordmaster who 3HKOs a lot.

Take away Gatrie:

Master Crown

No wooing General who never dies and 2HKOs a lot (sometimes ORKO, sometimes not).

It looks like team w/out Mia > team w/out Gatrie. And that's an advantage for Gatrie.

Now, it's true that Fire Emblem is entirely luck based, and I don't mean the stat. Part of why I think Gatrie > Mia is because there's less luck involved. As I outlined above, all it takes is a little bad luck for Mia to start having problems, not only durably, but offensively as well, since she relies on crits and Adept or she doesn't ORKO much at all. In the meantime, Gatrie just relies on his own stats. His bases carry him very well as I partially outlined, and his other "luck based" issue, Hit, can be solved easily via forging.

Obviously, Mia has mobility on Gatrie, in every single way imaginable. But this generally isn't too much of a problem for Gatrie except in specific situations (which is why I conceded 3-3). I don't recall his starting position in 3-P, but I remember it being close to or at the front, so as long as he's always charging ahead, he'll always be in range of enemies.

3-1 has no terrain for him to worry about.

3-2 has a little, not much to worry about.

3-4 is just the mountain, but Gatrie can just go left.

3-5 has negligible terrain near the boss.

3-7 is self-improvement, so no one cares.

3-8 lacks terrain entirely.

3-10 is the same.

3-11 ditto.

3-E Yeah

4-2 Again

4-4 same frickin' thing except ledges, but that's like a one turn deficit.

So in the earlier places where Gatrie might have mobility issues is when Mia's durability is at its worst, and then he stops really caring even before she becomes durable.

I'm done now.

Edited September 11, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[The Envoy of the Beginning]

...wait. Mia > Zihark?

I must be missing something.

[Florete]

...wait. Mia > Zihark?

I must be missing something.

This topic is weird. It has random spurts where 300 posts will appear over the weekend, and then nothing for a few days, or at least very little.

Mia vs. everyone was one of those weekends. If you weren't there, yeah, you missed something.

[Blademaster!]

I apologise if some of what I'm about to say has been said before, but I thought I would voice my opinion and get an answer to see how I'm either right or wrong or neutral.

For the most part the list is fairly good, but I do have some complaints.

I think Danved should possibly be a bit higher. He is the only character who is assured to not be doubled by the boss of the chapter he joins on, and he has for the most part some pretty nice and well rounded stats. He has good magic making him a nice candidate for Imbue, and his spd, luk, and Hp are pretty good and his def and res are nice to, so he can be pretty durable. The only stat he seems to suffer in is str, and even that stat isn't all that bad. Personally, i think he should be above Leonardo, but under Rolf, but at the very least he should be above Sigrun (who suffers from being weak against bows in a game filled with powerfull archers).

I feel that Sothe should probably be above Volug really just do to his thief utility, longer amount of playtime, and his Michiah support along with the fact he can't be one shotted by the meteor using mage on the final chapter of part one. (this one I'm not really to adamant about, but I thought I'd say it anyway)

I feel that Shinon could possibly be a bit higher due to his great bases along with the fact that he can attack and not kill enemies (allowing units like Soren, Mia, and Boyd to get easier kills). He also has nice durabillity and provoke, along with the fact that he is a sniper so enemies are more likely to attack him and he won't die and prevent weaker units from getting killed. The only stat he seems to suffer in is str and that is fixed with the Silencer which also helps him fix any 3 range attack problems. He also has good magic so he makes a good imbue candidate.

The last thing I want to say is that Aran should be above Jill and Jill should be lower. I feel this may be more of a personal experience problem, but Jill always seems to never be able to hit anything. She also has a bad base str stat so her speed is hampered for a bit of the time that she joins you and she won't deal to much damage with an Iron axe. Aran on the other hand is a tank. He has great Hp and Def and caps most of his stats very fast so he is a great candidate for using bxp if you want to baby him (Jill doesn't have this luxury). He also benefits from one of the most usefull supports in the game (his support with Laura and although Jill can use this support to, Aran is around longer). Jill may be a bit better than Aran by the endgame, but In the chapters where using Jill or Aran really matter, Aran is much more useful. This one may be more of a personal experience thing for me though since my stratagies are much better suited for a unit like Aran.

[Narga_Rocks]

Problem #1: Dodging durability. Gatrie's leads: 10 HP, 11 Def, 3 Res. Mia's leads: 19 avoid, 3 Dodge. It takes all of 30 physical atk and 25 magic atk to 2HKO Mia. 9/13 enemies before meeting up with the Laguz reach that. The lowest is 26, which still 3HKOs Mia. The problem? Those 30+ guys have 4 that are 33+ atk, which means they do at least 20 damage, so everybody except the Javelin Halberdier can still kill her.

So it takes all of 2 enemies for Mia to face a real chance of death. Gatrie? The enemy that can deal him the greatest amount of damage, Fire Sages, deal 14, a 4HKO. A more average number, say 30 physical atk, is an 8HKO. So it generally takes ~6 enemies before Gatrie faces real chances of death.

So what does this mean? Well, let's say we give them their maximum safe exposure. Mia gets attacked, gets lucky and crits, and the guy is dead. Cool. Gatrie charges as far ahead as he can because nothing will kill him, takes on only 4 enemies because Ashera hates him and he never got to crit, and left them all with <50% HP. He can kill one on his player phase while Rolf, Soren, and Rhys take out the trash, and Mia needs a heal, and Gatrie's full turn performance turns out greater than Mia's.

So Gatrie wins 3-P and 3-1.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and Swordmasters have listed Crit on her. Well, they have more on Gatrie, but they don't kill Gatrie either. No one that can Crit Gatrie can even do half his HP.

EDIT2: Wtf kind of typo was that?

Except the problem with Gatrie in 3-P is the only way to get him to take on 4 enemies at once is if he's the only unit moving. Also, Ike and some others are generally going to be at the boss' area along with the laguz while Gatrie is still hanging in the upper middle area. Basically, I don't see how he's ever facing more than 2 at once. I simply don't see him facing any more units than Mia does, and she does more to them since someone else can attack Generals. He wins 3-1, though, because there's 4 generals (I think) that are all near the house and he can visit it on turn 1. Even so, after he takes them on he's stuck in the south because he won't likely catch up, although there are the reinforcements in the southeast to kill and one enemy (I think) in the southeast that Gatrie could get if we move the others northeast too slowly. He still faces more than Mia and probably does a little more, but I think that about cancels out Mia's 3-P.

EDIT: For the reinforcements in 3-1 Gatrie can face I meant southwest

Largely the same deal. You know all those Paladin reinforcements that appear from the northeast? Gatrie could take a hit from all of them (5) at base level and live. In fact, he'd still have >50% of his HP. ~64% to be precise. Let's say Mia has gotten 2 levels and gotten HP and Def on both. It takes all of 3 attacks from these guys to kill her. It's exact (12x3 to her 36 HP), but unless you want to assume she can get 3 levels or a stat booster, she can't possibly be any better.

As for Dragonmasters, yeah, she probably wins against them. If she only takes one per turn, that is. It takes a hit each from the 4 strongest of them to kill Gatrie. Mia takes 2 from the weakest and her death chances appear.

Well, I for one don't really see the point in sending Mia and Ike northeast, since there is plenty of work in the southern areas and across the river to perform. So basically the only paladins she faces are the 4 in the south that are positioned such that if you are attacking enemies on turn 2 you only get into position to draw 2 of them. She's fine. If we aren't blitzing the boss, Haar flies across the forest and he takes on all those paladins in the east on the first turn since Gatrie can't go far enough to reach them all, then in turn 2 Gatrie becomes one among many in the wall defending the nubs coming along. Without the nubs it takes longer to kill all the enemies there anyway. Then thickets get in the way again and Gatrie gets left attacking the northern reinforcements. He takes on a lot here, but I'm not sure how meaningful it is. Meanwhile Mia does okay on the enemies she faces.

Storm Sword? From where? 3-2? Good luck getting the General to equip his Steel Sword. The first otherwise is in 3-6, or halfway through 3-7 if Mia wants it.

We have Shinon and Rolf. Either one of them can easily be positioned to force a steel sword equip. And it's possible you could just use a unit with 1-2 range since the general might prefer his other weapon then since it's more accurate. Never tried a non-bow user for that task, though, so I can't be sure. Draw the boss, then draw the general and block the boss and you have a storm sword. Also all the other items in that area too.

Gatrie can just go to the left.

That's fine and all, but we have Titania and Oscar and Ranulf charging ahead taking care of all the lower enemies, plus the laguz that start there. He doesn't get much done. Haar helps out with clearing out one sage to allow people to get up the left mountain, and all your 7 move units can now access the mountain and push forward even more. Gatrie won't catch up until most of the enemies are gone.

Problem #2: Supports. What if Ike is not in range? Her avoid drops to 95. Suddenly, that 1.05% real becomes 9.9% real. That 8.2% becomes 24.85%. Her chance of dying in 3 hits from that: 15.6%. And all it takes is for both of them to attack her on enemy phase, at least one left alive, and then her player phase for that to happen. Gatrie's chance of death in 3 hits from the same guys? 0%. Hell, with just +1 Def or HP from base level, he can take 4 hits and live. And he doesn't need any supports to say so. And this is among the highest atk on the map.

And then biorythm attacks Mia. Let's say the enemy has 2 biorythm levels on Mia, something like her in Normal and the enemy on Best. Even with Ike in range, her support is pretty much reduced to +5 avoid, which is still better than my above numbers. However, take Ike 4+ spaces away and/or be worse on Biorythm and it gets even worse than my above numbers. Do it all to Gatrie and he might miss once or twice, but he isn't dying, and I'd rather miss than die.

I don't see the issue with the support. Ike moves, Mia goes with him. They have 7 move each and Ike likes his avo almost as much as Mia does. Especially when there are sages around. I don't really see why I'd send Mia elsewhere. The only question is who goes first on player phase. Probably Ike, so that's an advantage for Ike, not Gatrie. Mia is tied to Ike, except it's not really a big issue. Ike isn't held back by her at all, since wherever he goes she follows. Sure, I love that Gatrie doesn't need supports. It's great. In 3-10 I love it in the south. In 3-8 I love it that I can send him + Mia + Ike in one direction and everyone else in the other direction and watch the 3 of them tear things up. In 3-7 I like that I can send him towards Zihark's island and draw everything so my other units can go over without risk. In 3-5 I like that I can have him attacked by multiple paladins if I want and he doesn't need to worry about some of them going after his support partner. Those things are nice, but since Mia and Ike are just that good together, I consider those things a win for Gatrie against almost everybody else, but not against Mia and Ike.

As for bio, unfortunately she's a little bit of a slave to it. It's not generally a big issue if she's neutral and above, but I have to be a little selective in some parts of part 3 before she can go full tilt. Except it's mostly just an issue with 3-P to 3-2, in 3-3 it doesn't really matter, and same with 3-4 (spaced out enemies mostly) and 3-5 (paladins generally 3HKO her and still don't have that good hit.) As long as she follows Ike around, she's basically fine after 3-2.

Since the rest of your part 3 was pretty much overview, I'll do the same thing I just did. Gatrie can run off and do shit on his own. He doesn't need a support partner unless he needs hit, but that's what forges are for. I shouldn't need to explain why +25 Hit on a forge is reasonable, and he also has a decent chance of getting Hit from a Coin, since the Arrow is the most common card, and the Triple Arrow, Soldier, and Goddess cards give Hit as well. So at least 25, but up to 45 extra Hit from a Coin, and it's more common than the two things Mia wants, which are MT and Crit. Especially Crit, which is actually the least likely individual boost.

By the way, he's a decent supporter as well. Titania, Oscar, Boyd, Mia(!) and Nephenee are probably the ones most likely to want a Def support, and Titania, Boyd, and Haar can all have Hit issues at times. Boyd is probably his best option for various reasons that I'd prefer to not go into great detail on, btu Boyd respects the bonuses as well, and the only better option I can think of for him would be Oscar, but that has some problems as well. All in all, I'd say Gatrie ends up helping Boyd more than Mia helps Ike.

Ike wants to not be slowed down. To give Ike his avo, he needs a unit that clears space almost as well as he does, otherwise he has to hang back to prevent his support partner from getting attacked too much otherwise it means more work for everyone on player phase. The other thing is since Mia clears space rather well and leaves things almost anyone can kill with whatever weapon they want, I can slowplay Ike more easily since he isn't doing everything. They tend not to attack Ike as much, so Ike easily reaches ~80 exp without me having to stop Ike from doing stuff. This matters more from 3-7 on, of course, since he's not likely to cap str and skl until level 16 or 17 so he needs to actually be level 16 or 17, but it's still there. Without Mia, Ike needs to do more each turn, which means he generally will level each chapter and a bit more when he'd like to get bexp for spd.

It's the difference between 20/1 Ike having 30 spd and doubling everything but sm (and falcos until he gets 31 speed in 2 or 3 levels) in 4-1 and having a good shot at 32 speed for 4-4 and doubling non-warriors/sms, or him having 28 speed and failing to double 25 speed things and not really having much of a prayer at doubling halbs or snipers in 4-4. Even many generals have 25 or 26 speed and so there may be times in the early stages of 4-4 where he's not doubling them.

Also, BK. 34 speed is like level 20/17 or 20/18 normally, now it's 20/12 or 20/13, cake. Auras. I suppose he might have 20/17 or 20/18 by then, though, except I usually finish with most of them around 20/13 to 20/17, and that's with routing 4-E-2 and 4-E-3 and 4-E-4. And he only has one enemy in 4-E-2.

I really think Mia helps Ike more than most supporters help the other.

I suppose you could give Ike to Haar and give Haar a wing and a crown in 3-8 and force Haar to never fly off on his own, but that doesn't seem like nearly as good a solution as Ike x Mia.

I'm getting tired, so I'll just say she beats Gatrie in part 4, since she likely does anyway. It isn't huge, since Gatrie still does well, but it's there.

Well, how well does he do there? I crown him in 3-4, he has time to get levels, so lets say 15/3 for 4-1/2. I'm assuming no desert, since he'll be trash there. He'd be awesome in 4-P, though (<= 22 speed paladins), so maybe it's worth it? Anyway, 4-2 and 4-5 are filled with thickets and various things to screw Gats over, so in 4-2 his main use is going south and tanking there until those things are dead. At 15/3 he has 26.2 speed so he's not doubling much until he gets levels. So in 4-2 he's drawing enemies and tanking but he's not killing on enemy phase without pulling something off in the one chance he has on each enemy (and he has somewhat low skl) so he's not really clearing it well without assistance from at least 2 other units, maybe 3. In 4-5 his main use is tiger drawing on turn 1, while other units wall off the cats. Then he can continue northeast, but there are thickets so there could be issues.

So let's go with Ike's route since less things get in his way. Still only 26.2 speed until he starts leveling. Three levels for 27.8 for a decent chance at doubling halbs. Five levels for 29 speed to double warriors. He's basically going east and taking on the generals. His best weapon is a silver poleaxe, or maybe it's not his best since he has 23.15 skill and 17 luck so he's pulling:

46 + 17 + 15 + 60 = 138 hit with the thing. Now he needs his support unless he wants to have ~70 listed hit on them. ~82% hit, or a 67.24% chance of KOing them. Well, I suppose if he misses once but pulls off a Luna on a successful hit he'd kill them. Little higher but with only a 23% Luna it's not amazing. Also, he needs a +mt support because he only has 48 mt right now and doesn't ORKO. So he grabs one of only two hammers that may have been used extensively throughout the game and most people will preserve 3 uses for the BK. Anyway, with a mt support he can have 50 mt with the silver poleaxe and 153 hit with A Boyd, or if he supports Mist/Soren/etc he'll have 146 hit. So now vs. 62 to 68 avo (sorry, guess I was harsh with the ~70) he has 78 to 91 listed depending on his support and the specific enemy. 90.54 to 98.74. Still has to hit twice or once + Luna to KO. Mia can go south and pull off much better KO%s with a silver blade. Sure, she's not 100% all the time because even with 32 skl and 23 to 25 luck (depending on frequency of bexp levels after capping stuff) a silver blade still has annoying low hit. But she's generally >95 listed, so her chances of not KOing are microscopic.

Anyway, there's a limit to the number of Generals and then he's doing way less damage thanks to not doubling. 4-4 is where she shines because he needs level 15/7 or 15/8 for a stupidly high number of Generals and 15/9 or 15/10 for most halbs and 15/11 for most warriors and will never double some warriors and any swordmasters.

The gap may not be "huge", but it's bigger than any gap between Mia and Gatrie the other direction aside from 3-1 and maybe 3-2.

But there's another thing I want to look into. I was fine with everything given to Mia, but what happens if she's off the team? We're left with:

Ike support

Adept for anyone

Vantage for anyone

A bit more money I suppose, but that's like nothing

No busty Swordmaster who 3HKOs a lot.

Take away Gatrie:

Master Crown

No wooing General who never dies and 2HKOs a lot (sometimes ORKO, sometimes not).

That's the opportunity cost angle. But the Ike support to most other units generally just slows Ike down. He has to hang back to get his avo but still face enemies, or move forward and cause the enemies to attack his support partner. Unless he pairs with Titania or Gatrie or Haar, it's not helping. Considering there are other issues with each of those options, it's not big. For example, Gatrie now has to follow Ike when he could have gone wherever and he's not really gaining much from the earth. Ditto Haar. Titania has her mounted issues all the time and frequently misses doubles even with the speedwing.

Adept means we have Mia Lite in Nephenee, and Neph could support Ike to get okay but not as good avo I suppose. Still, we reduce the killing power of Ike's support partner by quite a lot. Also Ike's partner no longer doubles swordmasters.

Vantage is useless without it being free. It's only good on Mia because she can take Adept + Cancel + critforge + Swordmaster crit + stupidly high skill and have a good chance of not getting attacked on enemy phase. Other units will pull out a 20% vantage and really low OHKO chances and generally end up with only a ~6% chance of not getting attacked on enemy phase (provided they equip a killer weapon yet still at least 3HKO). Not helping as much as Mia's. And they have less avo to begin with, anyway. And they'll do far less damage than Mia would have for the entire enemy phase since they have a weaker weapon and don't double. Or some of them do double but still. Without the killer weapon, most units have no chance to OHKO anyway.

You didn't mention cancel, which technically is something else that's left out there. But without comboing Cancel and Vantage, it's player phase only and still not getting a unit to useful proc rates.

It looks like team w/out Mia > team w/out Gatrie. And that's an advantage for Gatrie.

I'd say Ike misses her enough already. I'm not sure what the crown is doing now, though. Haar and Titania don't need it in 3-4 and Haar can have the DB's. I suppose when Titania hits 24 speed she might take it, but it hurts her part 4. Titania might get a little better in 3-10, but that's it. We miss out on Gatrie's tanking ORKOness, but with the wings Titania and Haar are doing pretty good themselves and have more move. We are missing something we have 2 of already. Don't get me wrong, Gatrie does the ORKO thing better than Titania since she'll not have 24 speed for 3-4 or 25 speed for 3-5 or maybe not even 3-8 or 26 speed for 3-10, whereas he will. Haar only misses the 25 speed in 3-5 and probably the 24 speed in 3-4, but since Gats wasn't doing much in 3-4 anyway and in 3-5 there is a paladin swarm down the middle towards the boss, he's mostly fine. Still, 3 > 2, so we miss something. I still think Ike's best partner would be missed more. Plus in part 4 we feel the loss of Mia far more than Gatrie.

Now, it's true that Fire Emblem is entirely luck based, and I don't mean the stat. Part of why I think Gatrie > Mia is because there's less luck involved. As I outlined above, all it takes is a little bad luck for Mia to start having problems, not only durably, but offensively as well, since she relies on crits and Adept or she doesn't ORKO much at all. In the meantime, Gatrie just relies on his own stats. His bases carry him very well as I partially outlined, and his other "luck based" issue, Hit, can be solved easily via forging.

As long as we are careful while she's on worst for her first few maps and then keep her near Ike (which he likes too) she needs to get massively rng screwed for anything bad to happen. And she doesn't just rely on Adept and Crits to be good. Even if she only KOs 1 out of 4 enemies on an individual enemy phase, that's still 3 enemies that can be killed by a hand axe. Or some other weak weapon.

Consider what happens around 3-10 if on Gatrie's one level he didn't pull off the 60% speed proc. He doesn't double all those 22 speed enemies now and won't be doubling them in 3-11 or 3-E either, and he'll start part 4 with less speed and may not even double the generals now.

In order for Mia to only kill 1 out of 4 on an individual enemy phase, give her just a steel blade. She still has her innate crit giving her ~9% crit and Adept giving her 30%. So 1 - (.91 * .7) ^ 2 = 59.4231% chance of killing each enemy. So to only kill 1 out of 4 that's:

4 * .594231 * (.405769 ^3) = ~15.88%

So it happens, and if you do it 20 times it happens ~3 times on average. And there's the possibility of killing none, but that's way lower. ~2.71%

Anyway, when she doesn't kill? Ilyana can kill it. At times, even Mist can KO it. When Gatrie doesn't proc speed? There are lots of enemies that he leaves with a lot of their hitpoints. Then his losses in part 4 may be even bigger. Really, the few times Mia doesn't kill as much on enemy phase aren't that big a deal.

Obviously, Mia has mobility on Gatrie, in every single way imaginable. But this generally isn't too much of a problem for Gatrie except in specific situations (which is why I conceded 3-3). I don't recall his starting position in 3-P, but I remember it being close to or at the front, so as long as he's always charging ahead, he'll always be in range of enemies.

3-1 has no terrain for him to worry about.

3-2 has a little, not much to worry about.

3-4 is just the mountain, but Gatrie can just go left.

3-5 has negligible terrain near the boss.

3-7 is self-improvement, so no one cares.

3-8 lacks terrain entirely.

3-10 is the same.

3-11 ditto.

3-E Yeah

4-2 Again

4-4 same frickin' thing except ledges, but that's like a one turn deficit.

So in the earlier places where Gatrie might have mobility issues is when Mia's durability is at its worst, and then he stops really caring even before she becomes durable.

I'm done now.

3-2 actually means he only faces about two thirds of the map. 3-4 he gets left behind anyway. In fact, he has to stand within one square of the ledge just to get up.

Consider:

G-E-L-E-E-E

So next turn he is

E-E-L-G-E-E

Compared to

E-E-L-E-E-M

Doesn't look so bad, right?

But:

G-E-E-L-E-E-E-E

Next turn:

E-E-G-L-E-E-E-E

E-E-E-L-E-M-E-E

Next turn:

E-E-E-L-E-G-E-E

E-E-E-L-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-M

She's now 7 spaces ahead.

Trust me, ledges can cause him mega headaches.

In 3-8 he could end up on a spot that gets blasted, but I suppose with 49 hp and 29 def and 17 res he doesn't much care.

3-10 is big, but it's rout so I suppose clearing out the southeast is a worthy goal.

3-11 he's still got one less move than her and can't be shoved by much. Mordy may not want to give up an opportunity to grass. Also, if we are playing Mordy for resolve, if we have him attack a mage he'll need to herb or vulnerary in order to stay in resolve range while still being able to attack another mage if we want. If I have a staff user heal him, he'll be out of resolve range.

Anyway with all the side to side moving and stuff in the way and her natural +1 move I'd say it matters here. I suppose we have to put celerity somewhere, though, so maybe when it matters Gats can have it. Costs 15 so he can only use another 10, but I'm not sure he cares about any other skill. Also means we can't stick it elsewhere, though. I'd need a cost analysis to know if it hurts more to give him Celerity than Mia getting all her stuff. But you didn't suggest Celerity so I won't bother looking into it myself.

As for 4-1, he's got three options here. East, South, West. East is the only place he can double. East also means he needs to go south once those things are dead. Sadly there are thickets in the way. I'm assuming you meant 4-1 and not 4-2. Anyway, to avoid the thickets he either attacks things he's got no hope of doubling, or he attacks things he doubles and then gets stuck afterwards.

As for 4-4, it can set him back a lot. He might be better off going east and helping to clear out the sages and generals and swordmasters there, then just sticking where the swordmaster + sniper + warrior combo appears 3 times before turn 10. Considering you can clear most of that with Shinon + Mist + Heather believe it or not, then a little help from others with the reinforcements, it's not nearly as big an accomplishment as what Mia can do here.

And don't forget 4-E-4. It's a big space towards the boss. And celerity may be going on a heron now.

Oh, does this mean you think Titania > Mia too? Or Gatrie > Mia > Titania?

I defended Titania against Gatrie earlier, but I'm not sure which way to go on that one, really. If you fully believe Gatrie > Mia and I can't convince you otherwise, don't just go Titania > Gatrie > Mia without asking about Titania's position first.

Edited September 11, 2009 by Narga_Rocks