OMG it's a tier list

[Jaybee]

Haven't checked on Rolf (T), but I do think Sanaki should go up.

[Naglfar]

Haven't looked into why Rolf (T) should make such a huge jump, but as for Sanaki > Lehran, sure.

[Colonel M]

I don't want to get too carried away with this, so first let me see how much skepticalness there is.

Elincia > Jill (w/Transer).

Edited November 18, 2009 by Colonel M

[Florete]

Haven't looked into why Rolf (T) should make such a huge jump, but as for Sanaki > Lehran, sure.

Narga compared him to Shinon a while back, saying he should jump to Upper Mid since he's really similar and occasionally better.

I don't want to get too carried away with this, so first let me see how much skepticalness there is.

Elincia > Jill (w/Transer).

You need to give me something to go on. I can't make an argument or move anyone if you don't give a reason for your proposal.

[Allan's Aokage]

Transferring what?

According to her (PoR) average stats, she comes 12.4 away from capping HP, so it's plausible with a Seraph Robe; 1.6 within capping Str, so that's definitely plausible; lolno Mag; 0.05 capping Skill, so that's almost certain; 2.05 from capping Speed, so that's another one; Luck has no chance, 3.15 from capping Defence, so that's possible; and Res is too far off to cap.

I'd say simply Elincia's average stats normally >>> Jill, but I'd like to see which stats are being capped beforehand before I make judgements.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Allan's Aokage

[Florete]

Transferring what?

According to her (PoR) average stats, she comes 12.4 away from capping HP, so it's plausible with a Seraph Robe; 1.6 within capping Str, so that's definitely plausible; lolno Mag; 0.05 capping Skill, so that's almost certain; 2.05 from capping Speed, so that's another one; Luck has no chance, 3.15 from capping Defence, so that's possible; and Res is too far off to cap.

I'd say simply Elincia's average stats normally >>> Jill, but I'd like to see which stats are being capped beforehand before I make judgements.

Uh....Look at the list.

[Allan's Aokage]

...this has seemingly become a recurring trend.

My apologies.

[Narga_Rocks]

I don't want to get too carried away with this, so first let me see how much skepticalness there is.

Elincia > Jill (w/Transer).

I'd like to see that argument. I like Jill lots, but I like Elincia too. I'm a little worried that Jill basically starts with 13 str and 17 spd, though. She'll double lots from day one. Level 18 may even cap speed. Forged axe means she starts with 25 mt. 25 mt and 17 speed isn't far off from Volug (only -2 AS, and that won't last three levels, but of course her durability is still lacking). She even pulls 22 mt with a hand axe and no speed reduction. It's a pretty good start, and just gets better. I'm still a little concerned about her early part 4, though, since she'll have just as much trouble boosting her level in part 3 as any DB unit, but I think she's good enough for long enough to probably be better than Elincia. Not sure, though. Elicnia is quite good. Too bad there is no hope of a str transfer for Elincia, though. Still, she got spd, and 24 AS + spd from part two levels to start part 4 helps lots, and she's still the paragon of what we want out of paragon (oops). So her part 4 is quite good (even better than normal). Elincia (T) > Jill (T) would probably be easier to argue than Elincia (N) > Jill (T). Start there.

[Florete]

It's been long enough, Rolf (T) and Sanaki went up.

I put Rolf (T) at the bottom of Upper Mid, though being in-between the two Mists seems strange.

[Narga_Rocks]

Oh, I should correct myself. Jill(T) starts with 13 str and a max mt axe is 13 mt, so she starts with 26 mt (I said 25 before) and 17 AS. Now, her 24 hp pails in comparison to Volug's 49, but her 13 def matches his. Basically, aside from enemies with 14 or 15 AS, she starts with better offence than Volug, and will hit 18 AS soon enough to do better than him against 14 AS enemies. Not nearly as good durability, of course, but still. Also, she'll probably hit 20 AS during part 1, considering that is only 4 or 5 levels away. So for example the soldiers in 1-E with 16 AS are doubled by her and not Volug. Also gets to 15 str by the time she gets 4 or 5 levels, so that plus forgeable steal helps offset the increase in Volug's mt when he hits S strike. Still, that's not bad.

Of course, Volug has an extra chapter for Energy drop use making the wait less extreme and it allows him to OHKO mages for a while which is important. And 29 mt is more than 26. But I'm not comparing her with Volug to try to say she's better (laughable idea), but that she is doing quite well for an extended period of time while Elincia is arguing with her senate (or whatever they are).

[Progenitus]

I asked this in debate challenges, but I figure posting here will get more attention from people that talk about RD.

I'll debate Shinon vs Mia, Titania, Gatrie, or Ulki (I don't want to argue against a heron since dancer utility is a bitch to deal with. I don't want to argue against DB since then I have to talk about Shinon's performance in GMs vs Sothe/Zihark/Nolan's performance in DB, and this will just make a massive tldr. And I don't want to argue against Janaff because I feel Janaff is too good, but that's just me since it seems no one else agrees with me on that, given how Janaff is lower than Mia/Titania/Gatrie).

Alternately I'll debate Devdan/Danved for either FE9 or 10.

[tehnikhil]

I haven't read the whole thing, but although it seems like everyone is focused on Cain vs Griffca, I would like to bring up a quick point of Pelleas>Astrid (T)

BTW, I am kinda tired, so I am not going to look up stats, but base it off of what I have remembered from my last time using these guys.

- Pelleas can be crowned for staves, which is always a plus. Although many play the whole crown favoritism argument, there aren't many people who can use a crown a lot better that him from what I have read. Most just use it for the 100 exp save.

- Not only that, but if you decide to bring him to endgame, he can actually be kinda useful with his speed growth. Plus, although he is in a bad situation like Astrid, it doesn't take as long for him to get out of it, and since Astird has low str, she isn;t killing much either.

- I have heard Astird+Silencer before, but don't most people give Shinon that bow to fix his minor str problems that he may have later on to fix his problems of not always ORKOing some of the more hardy guys like generals/halbs? And if so, Astrid may not get one since Shinon will easily break his first one and then move on to his next one.

- Bow knights may be good for the minor chip damage and then retreat combo, but this is not FE11 H5. Hella tiny chip damage doesn't help anyone if you have to watch out for her more than others.

- IIRC, Pelleas has 10 uses of Fenrir, a siege tome. He can make good use of that, and if he decides not to bless Balberith he could always bless that for siege tome pwn in 4-E-3.

-I dunno about his caps, but his tome may qualify him to be able to siege tome Levail to painful damage.

- On 2-3 and 3-9, what exactly is Astrid doing? I guess guarding a ledge with Calill on the other for 3-9, but it is not like it is that useful. If wanted, you can just sacrifice your allies and let them take damage form enemies on halt.

- Paragon shouldn't really be considered. 2-3, she isn't exactly doing much even against tier 1 guys. Mak is even doing a hell lot better. 2-E, none of the CRK's are doing useful things. 3-9, you can take hers off along with Geoffery's and give it to Calill, Kieran, or Marcia, all of them with incredible potential. Danved and Mak don't suck as bad as Astrid either too. Parablossom isn't worth it in HM. You aren't getting to 20/20/20, so I think most people would take 8 normal level ups over 4 or 5 blossomed ones.

Oh, and also why is Rafiel>Jill (T). She is one of those fighters who are great in the DB for being irreplaceable. She can hit and run without worrying about terrain, and can deal with those evil hawks in 3-13 with her brave axe. Rafiel is falling behind in 1-E, feeling threatened by pegs in 4-1, and still can easily be falling behind others in 4-4. I guess he can be helpful for 1-8, but still, since when did 1 chapter of great double dancer (he will be getting 2 people at most)>hit and run god with a brave axe of greatness XD?

Edited November 20, 2009 by tehnikhil

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

The competition for a speedwings in PoR for the purpose of a transfer:

Reyson

Rhys

Calill

Devdan

Lucia

These units, if given a speedwings, can cap speed through class/weapon manipulation and speed band usage.

Tormod can get a speed transfer by the way.

EDIT: Same idea for a dracoshield

Kieran

Oscar

Marcia

Astrid

Nephenee

Zihark

Mia

Geoffrey

Tormod

Some of these units are going to have to stretch manipulation to the limit (Astrid, Zihark, Mia, Tormod) and some may have to give up another stat based on (Kieran). The rest except Geoffrey and Oscar still need a fair amount of manipulation to cap defense, but it is certainly more manageable.

Edited November 29, 2009 by WeaponsofMassConstruction

[Zkirsche]

Jill (T) into high tier.

Let's compare her to Nolan when she first joins. Giving Nolan a level per chapter and 'B' Aran (Likely?) gets him these stats:

Level 14 Nolan with an iron axe forge, 'B' Aran: 32 HP, 27 Atk, 13 AS, 56 Avo, 12 Def, 6 Res

Level 14 Jill with an iron axe forge: 24 HP, 26 Atk, 17 AS, 48 Avo, 13 Def, 3 Res

Right off the bat, Jill has an offensive lead over Nolan. The latter doubles 3 enemies but only has a HKO lead on the armour (though RKO is the same). The former only fails to double 4 enemies - two of which aren't doubled even by the top tier Volug. Oh yeah, and Jill has flight + mov lead + canto over Nolan to reach enemies. The pegasus will be hard to reach for Nolan, I'm sure.

Of course, there's durability right? Yeah, Nolan has an 8 HP, 8 avo and 3 res lead against Jill's lone def, so that's a win. But there's the seraph robe you get in 1-4. With that, it's pretty close (1 HP + 8 avo + 3 res vs 1 def), and considering Jill's offensive and mobility leads, Jill(T) has teh advantage at this point i'd say.

Come endgame:

Level 18 Nolan with a steel axe forge, 'B' Zihark: 34 HP, 32 Atk, 15 AS, 72 Avo, 12 Def, 7 Res

Level 17 Jill with a steel axe forge, 'C' Volug + Robe: 32.5 HP, 30 Atk, 19 AS, 64 Avo, 15 Def, 5 Res

Durably, it's 1.5 HP + 8 avo + 2 Res vs 3 Def. Pretty close, but I'd say Jill wins it, as after a hit each, Jill's leading HP by 1.5 points, unless it's res, but mages aren't incredibly common anyway. Considering it took a robe, let's call it a tie, however. What's not a tier, though, is there offensive capabilities. Do you know how many enemies 15 AS doubles? 1. The meteor mage at the back that even base Micaiah can double. I looked through the enemy list and there's only 1 enemy Nolan has a RKO lead against - Jarod. Nolan 3RKO's, Jill 4RKO's. But noone cares anyway as we'd rather have Nailah or the BK do it in just 1 turn.

Oh, and Jill can fly up ledges without a penalty, and still has canto, so she still has superier mobility than Nolan.

Part 3 comes along swiftly...

Level 20/1 Nolan with Tarvos 'B' Zihark: 38 HP, 36 Atk, 18 AS, 80 Avo, 18 Def, 9 Res

Level 20/1 Jill with a steel axe forge, 'B' Volug + Robe: 36 HP, 34 Atk, 21 AS, 80 Avo, 18 Def, 9 Res

19x Tiger lvl 16: HP 50-52, Atk 39, AS 16, Hit 137, Avo 39, DEF 20

8x Cat lvl 15: HP 42, Atk 27, AS 20, Hit 137, Avo 47, DEF 14

7x Cat lvl 17: HP 43, Atk 31, AS 22, Hit 142, Avo 52, DEF 16

Durably, i'd say it's a tie. Nolan's HP gives him the advantage against a few enemies (such as the level 15 cats), but Jill's AS means she isn't doubled by some of the cats. As for offence, well, look at the stats yourselves, folks, Nolan 4RKO's the level 16 Tigers, Jill 2RKO's them. (Nolan 3RKO's with teh brave axe). Jill 3RKO's the level 15 cats, Nolan 2RKO's them (Both 2RKO with the barve axe). Both 3RKO the level 17 cats (both 2RKO with teh brave axe). So Jill has an advantage offensively against the most common enemy on the map. This, along with flight utility makes her the superier in this map too.

Skip along to part 4...

Level 20/12 Jill with a forged silver axe, 'A' Volug + Robe: 41.5 HP, 42 Atk, 25 AS, 104 Avo, 23 Def, 14 Res

Level 20/12 Nolan with Tarvos, 'A' Zihark: 44 HP, 41 Atk, 24 AS, 113 Avo, 22 Def, 12 Res

Say Jill went to 4-P and Nolan to 4-1. Jill doubles ~17 enemies, on average. But in 4-1, Nolan only doubles 4 enemies. You can see the difference. Even in 4-P, Nolan would only double 4 enemies, so please, nothing like "You're favouring Jill by letting her go to pally fest", especially since the desert is after 4-P, and Jill can most certainly go there as it's where she's at her best (probably). In fact, I'd say I'm favouring Nolan, as I'm giving him authority stars to help his avoid. With them, even the 4-1 crossbow user has <50% hit on him. aka, it's very good. Jill's facing 40-60% hit rates mostly, while Nolan faces 20-40%, quite a difference. So Nolan's better durably and Jill's better offensively. But Jill isn't a glass cannon (36 Atk, which is about average for 4-P, 4RKO's her), and Nolan isn't exactly weak. So overall, I'd say they tie.

Come endgame:

Level 20/20/6 Jill with a forged silver axe, 'A' Volug + Robe: 52 HP, 50 Atk, 30 AS, 136.5 Avo, 30 Def, 22 Res

Level 20/20/6 Nolan with Tarvos, 'A' Zihark: 56 HP, 49 Atk, 32 AS, 152 Avo, 28 Def, 19 Res

Nolan doubles 7 more enemies with that AS lead of his, which is pretty good. Jill's Atk, avo and HP can all be a bit higher than what's shown here with bexp, however, especially as she caps speed early in tier two. Nolan's mostly 3-5RKO'ed, whilst Jill's 4-6RKO'ed. Both are pretty untouchable, though. So yeah, Nolan finally wins.

Well, he does... until we hit dragons when they're both the same when it comes to doubling, but Jill being slightly more durable and then by the time we get spirits, it's pretty much tie game for the pair.

So overall, there two units are incredibly close, but with Jill winning pre part 4. Nolan's pre 1-6 game shouldn't warrant a tier gap, as it didn't in the case of Zihark. So I propose moving Jill(T) to the bottom of high.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

So it comes down to the cost of the seraph robe. Otherwise, Jill > Nolan has plausibility.

[Narga_Rocks]

I like Jill(T). I think there would need to be some more words to justify giving Jill(T) a robe and not giving Nolan a draco (I wouldn't really buy giving him a robe or a drop, so it would have to be a draco). It probably would come mostly from Jill's offense making a robe on her a great boon for efficiency but Nolan doesn't double so sticking the draco on someone that does might be better.

Anyway, I think Nolan having a B Aran in 1-6 is incredibly unlikely. 1-3 and 1-4 are needed for getting a C, and since 1-3 comes with no chapter bonus and they are a 01, they need 9 adjacents or 8 adjacents + 1 shove in two chapters. It's doable, but most of the adjacents would likely come from 1-3 given how the units are usually spread out more in 1-4 and may not be adjacent much. Then 1-5 is 6 turns. It is theoretically possible to pull a B for 1-6, but it requires them to start adjacent in 1-5 and have Aran carrying Nolan at the start of at least 3 turns and stay adjacent the other two. So it could go like this:

turn 1: start adjacent, have Aran pick up Nolan (Nolan can fight something before getting picked up)

turn 2: Aran moves but attacking would be problematic given the whole "getting doubled" thing that will happen while having your already low speed cut in half

turn 3: see turn 2

turn 4: Aran can finally drop Nolan, but nobody can do anything. Aran needs to stay adjacent to Nolan, meaning nobody can shove either of them for better positioning.

turn 5: Aran and Nolan can now finally do something to the enemies for the first time since turn 1 where Nolan could whack at one thing. They must end this turn adjacent.

turn 6: They are now free to go wherever and do whatever.

So Nolan gets 3 attacks (PP 1, 5, 6) and Aran gets 2 attacks (PP 5, 6) the entire chapter. They also only have 3 enemy phases in which Nolan is present and Aran won't suck. EP 4, 5, 6.

Alternatively, Aran can get a PP 4 attack if you have another unit (only Volug is capable) take + drop Nolan. Again, Aran must end this turn adjacent to Nolan. Of course, this costs a Volug attack or a vulnerary/concoction/pure water use.

The order of these could change, but if the rescuing is not 3 consecutive turns then it costs even more PP attacks for either Aran or Volug. Also, to get the points for the rescue Nolan must give up at least 3 EP and Aran must have reduced skill and luck on those same 3 EP.

So Aran and Nolan would likely not hit a B until 1-7. It is extremely limiting to have them build a B for 1-6 and doing so effectively costs Nolan one of his chapters of extra availability on Jill. And hurts Aran, too. As well as Nolan's level. I'd suggest Ed + Nolan, simply because an A for 1-7 might be doable, and even if it isn't a B Light + Earth is superior to a C Thunder + Earth. Or use Leo + Nolan.

At least, since you are switching Nolan to Zihark later anyway.

Also, no silver forges available in 4-P and 4-1. They first become available in 4-2. Silver Poleaxes are available in 4-P, though. 3-12, actually. 18 mt instead of 19 mt, so that's not so bad. The trouble is they have 60 hit and 4-P and 4-3 don't have stars on our side. Well, 4-3 she can have a silver forge, but I'm talking 4-P.

So it comes down to the cost of the seraph robe. Otherwise, Jill > Nolan has plausibility.

If that's holding you back from the possibility of Jill > Nolan, then I'd think assigning a reasonable cost to the robe should at least get Jill into High. Not necessarily above even Rafiel (though she could), but certainly enough to jump tiers. (plus it helps justify the 8.5)

Edit: okay, I messed up the adjacent thing. It's 6 and 4, not 6 and 5. So they need 5 carries and 1 adjacent, not 3 and 3.

Basically,

turn 1: start adjacent, have Aran pick up Nolan (Nolan can fight something before getting picked up)

turn 2: Aran moves but attacking would be problematic given the whole "getting doubled" thing that will happen while having your already low speed cut in half

turn 3: see turn 2

turn 4: see turn 2

turn 5: see turn 2

turn 6: Aran can drop Nolan and hopefully they'll be able to do something on enemy phase.

Nolan gets one PP attack (turn 1) and Aran gets none. They each get one EP (turn 6). Well, Aran has 4 PP attacks (turns 2 through 5) with half skill and half speed. Also he gets 5 EP (turns 1 though 5) with half skill and half speed. If you can make him useful for those turns, more power to you.

Now, technically, they get 2 points for a shove. So 6 and 5 will get them there. Trouble is: only Aran and Volug can shove Nolan, and they need to stay adjacent each turn and shove on 5 turns.

So on turn 1 Aran shoves Nolan, or vice versa, and the other moves back to be adjacent. Trouble here is that they are basically stuck in their starting position until turn 6 when they can go off and do whatever. They won't get much enemy phase happening. The other option is they can choose turn 1 as the turn in which they do not shove. Then they can move on turn 1 and both attack something (if they can stay adjacent) and then they are stuck here until the map is over, since all the other turns are

unit A "shove unit B 1 space"

unit B "move adjacent to unit A"

It's not really possible to move forward while doing that. The only fix is:

unit A "move and attack"

unit B "shove unit A"

unit C "shove unit A back at unit B"

Trouble is, unit C can only be Volug, and that's a problem since he's busy saving Jill.

Edited November 29, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Deliriyum]

Why exactly is Rolf lower mid? I may have missed an argument for him but.... He does easy chip damage at the start of part 3, after a few levels, he'll already be stronger than shinon. He still has plenty of speed to double after those levels. The only shaky stat he has is defence. Everything else will be damn near Shinon's, and Rolf is typically stronger. So I'm thinking like mid or upper mid, definitely below shinon because he has to be babied a little to catch him up

[Narga_Rocks]

Why exactly is Rolf lower mid? I may have missed an argument for him but.... He does easy chip damage at the start of part 3, after a few levels, he'll already be stronger than shinon. He still has plenty of speed to double after those levels. The only shaky stat he has is defence. Everything else will be damn near Shinon's, and Rolf is typically stronger. So I'm thinking like mid or upper mid, definitely below shinon because he has to be babied a little to catch him up

He starts with 19 AS and a 45% spd growth. Also 17 str. In the 3-P and 3-1 he doubles nothing (I think literally. Maybe some bishops have 15 AS though) and has 27 mt. 25 mt with a killer. 21 AS is needed for some good doubling in 3-2, since there are a lot of paladins with 17 AS. 4 or 5 levels away is unlikely. 3-3 has a lot of halbs, so need 24 AS for that. Way too many levels. 3-4 I suppose has some mages, but there are a fair number of warriors and halbs for which he needs 24 As again. 4 chapters to get 5 AS with a 45% growth. 11 or 12 levels away. He'd have to be level 12 already for a shot at it. 3-5 he needs 25 AS for the warriors, but there are a fair number of paladins and mages with less. I'm assuming 23 AS is needed. 22 might work on some, and he should have that by now, but 23 AS is 4 points. Needs to be around level 10. Possible. 3-7 he needs 24 AS for warriors, probably a little less for mages and stuff like that. 5 points. Level 12 could maybe happen by now. It also means 25.25 str. So aside from generals and dracos I'll grant that he is now ORKOing pretty much everything he doubles (assuming forge or silencer). 3-8 needs 25 AS for the halbs and warriors. 13 or 14 levels. So level 14 or 15. 7 chapters for 13 levels seems hard for a guy with no enemy phase.

Basically, it takes far too long before he starts doubling everything. I suppose there are enough mages and other things out there that maybe he could move up a bit. But Shinon isn't so high because he ORKOs mages and paladins. He's up so high because he ORKOs warriors and snipers and usually ORKOs halbs. The enemies your other characters don't. For Rolf to do what a lot of other units are doing but only doing it on player phase is a problem.

This is why Rolf (T) is so great. And could possible stand to move up further. He has some setbacks in 3-P, 3-1, 3-3, 3-5, but aside from that he's like a second Shinon until Shinon promotes. Then it is like 1 or 2 chapters of Shinon having extra range on Rolf, and then they are back to a tie. They start tier 3 at 28 AS, so Rolf's 45% spd growth might let Shinon pull ahead a bit in part 4, but not by all that much. Then Double Bow comes and Rolf is ORKOing a few things Shinon needs a +mt support for and Shinon has a little more def.

[Zkirsche]

I think Nolan having a B Aran in 1-6 is incredibly unlikely.

I thought so too, but I thought giving Nolan an advantage might make it seem more plausable. With only a 'C', Jill actually has more avo.

[Narga_Rocks]

I think Nolan having a B Aran in 1-6 is incredibly unlikely.

I thought so too, but I thought giving Nolan an advantage might make it seem more plausable.

I suppose. With analysis it's more like a punishment, though, what with losing the entirety of 1-5.

With only a 'C', Jill actually has more avo.

Except he can have a B Ed. If he had a +8 avo advantage with B Aran, it should be +3 avo with B Ed/Leo. Plus he gets either +1 mt through Leo or +5 hit through Ed. Plus Aran is higher than Ed in the list. Normally some would see this as a reason to support with Aran, but consider:

You are giving Nolan to Zihark later in your example.

Assuming you glue them together in 1-6 you can get a C for 1-7. And I mean glue. It takes 12 adjacents in 1-6. Ouch. Well, if you can have Nolan shove Zihark in 1-5 just twice you can pull it off with 11 adjacents in 1-6. Or have a shove in 1-5 and one in 1-6. Adjacents in 1-5 mean squat, if you are interested.

Presumably this starts is in 1-7. Ed is free up until 1-7. Assuming Ed is dropped in 1-7 and Zihark supports Nolan in 1-7, Ed sounds like the perfect candidate. We don't care that he is losing a support in 1-7, since he is getting dropped. Nolan needs somebody in 1-4, 1-5, 1-6. Or at least he might as well get someone. Aran is near the bottom of upper mid. Ed is at the top of lower mid. It's more likely "we" would continue to use Aran from 1-7 on than use Ed from 1-7 on. So giving Aran a support and taking it away is a problem. Better to have Aran support someone he won't lose.

[Zkirsche]

I didn't let it affect his level though, and again, I was just giving him one of the better affinities to give him an advantage. Realistically, teh gap is smaller.

[Florete]

I don't have time to add anything myself, but I support Jill (T) in High.

[_____]

Maybe I misread your posts, but are you saying that you're giving Jill the Robe cost free and then denying Nolan the Dracoshield?

Uhhh, how exactly are you justifying this? "Nolan doesn't double, so he doesn't get the Shield"? What?

[Zkirsche]

Uhhh, how exactly are you justifying this? "Nolan doesn't double, so he doesn't get the Shield"? What?

We'd want a good offensive unit durable over an average offensive unit being durable as the good offensive unit can do more with it.

[_____]

Uhhh, how exactly are you justifying this? "Nolan doesn't double, so he doesn't get the Shield"? What?

We'd want a good offensive unit durable over an average offensive unit being durable as the good offensive unit can do more with it.

Like...?

Taur? He's already invincible.

Sothe? See above, and he ends up much worse than Nolan, anyway.

Volug? See two above. He'd get +4s for his bonuses, but he already has an Earth affinity and a Thunder support (like Nolan), except with more overkill avoid.

Zihark? He's pretty awesome in Part 1, and then nearly invincible in Part 3.

Nailah? lol

BK? lol

Tormod? lol

Muarim? lol

Vika? lol

Uh, yeah, those are the units, besides Jill (T), with better offense than Nolan. Nolan is much better with it. And Jill (T) has some competition for the Robe, too.

Micaiah for more Sacrifice healing in all of Part 1.

Aran. Aran, Aran, Aran. With a Robe, a 20/1 Aran with Nolan A is 3RKO'd by even level 17 Tigers. Same for level 17 cats. Think that's not good enough? He's fine in Part 3 normally? Even a base level suportless Aran with the Robe in 1-6-1 is 3RKO'd by a majority of the map.

Nolan? Get this. Same deal as Aran for 1-6-1, supportless, base level, all that jazz.

You say that we want the Shield to go to a unit with better offense than Nolan, and yet I don't see anyone who wants it with better offense, except for maybe Jill. The Robe, however, has 3 different competitors who all are vying for it as early as possible, yet "ohlolyeahbutjillcanuseitbestsonocost".

Things do not work that way. There is a cost for every resource. Nolan should be given something to compensate for Jill taking the Robe to make the comparison more fair. His competition for the shield isn't even big.

Edited November 29, 2009 by Ninji