OMG it's a tier list

[grandjackal]

Like I said they were? Edward's damage output sucks because it's worse than everyone else. ORKOing has nothing to do with it.

Who is this everyone else? He's doing more damage immediately. Unlike them, he also can crit far more often.

Bullshit. As early as 1-1 Edward has doubling problems. Enemy AS ranges from 9-10, and his base is 12 with a 60% growth. Do the math. It just gets worse as you go on, like in 1-5 where you need 16-17 AS to consistently double, which Edward doesn't hit until 11-12

What is the difference between Michaiah with 2 levels and Eddie with 2? Eddie doubles in the next chapter, Michaiah does 1 more damage. Which one sounds better? I think the former. You're giving Michaiah effort for results faaaarrr later (I will point out the condtradiction later), while for Eddie I get results now. Incredible bias for one who isn;t putting it all anywhere near to good use any time soon.

Yes, I did give Eddie basically all but 1 kill. Yes, I did beat this quickly, and I don't think it possibly could have gone better. 1-1? Beat it in 6, and Eddie was all the better thanks to the help.

But apparently, 1 more damage is so much more important to you...

That's pretty lol. Edward can actually see Hit issues with Wind Edge (He'll have something like ~100 Hit mid part 1, so any avoid on enemies gives him problems) and he can't even always 3HKO, so there are times when a crit from Wind Edge won't even kill, and his durability has now been brought down to Laura level.

Light affinity? Luck? Skill? Hello?

Wrath can actually hurt him. If you're expecting him to hold one enemy down, he might activate Wrath on it and let another enemy in, and bye-bye Edward.

This is assuming your focusing all your effort into Michaiah for his part 4, which is mindless. Wanna know why? Well gee, aren't we pushing the easy button for the DB? Even with the effort, what time does she have to get any power?

However, let's think that statement over. Is enemy density in part 1 really that thick? I vouch not, not to the amount that it would put this situation to high alert that often. I can outline some strategies if you wish.

I'm not opposed to Edward using it, but the advantage is minimal. You already don't want him attacking when he can be countered, and a <20% chance to prevent a counter is not reliable in the least.

Well do entertain me the notion, what better use is there? Enemy density is low part 1. Why are we having Eddie play defensively? Honestly, it seems stupid at times that we can't afford him player phase at all, when enemies are not that numerous in part 1. It's not like GM part 3 where enemies are tightly condensed like sardines, they tend to be a bit spread out. Take advantage of crappy teamwork you could say.

This has already been acknowledged and factored in.

Just restating.

She wants more Mag for more powerful Thani bombing, which is actually very useful in part 1 and occasionally in part 3.

Having minute damage tacking on is not impressive, and at some point in part 1 and 3, we stop caring. 1-6 rolls around, the DB can go fuck themselves really. Fly Taur up to kill the boss, the LEA take care of 1-7, 1-8 is enough of a mess, 1-9 can be taken care of by the BK and just positioning smartly (saying Michaiah can take a shot with training and resources is an enemy not targeting the BK, AKA a waste of my time). I don't think I have to explain 1-E.

Then part 3, 3-6 Sothe Savior's and we let the BK handle everything. 3-12, Taur crowns and destroys the numbers. This leaves 3-13, where she's stuck on a ledge. Michaiah's only good if you don't easy button the DB. Training Eddie to team up with Nolan for pre-base part 1 is more an easy button than doing the same with Miccy.

All this for part 4 Thani-bombing? We should have far more capable units by now, I don't think we will miss the bombing of a single unit for player phase, especially since she should have healing to do now, thanks to having staffs.

Note, name horses and armors in part 1 prior to easy-button mode that is so important that we need Michaiah up to high power. Because once easy buttons come in, I could care less what she's capable of because no effort-needing DB is worth the effort at that point anymore, Miccy included.

He's not necessary at all after 1-P. He's useful, but only as useful as anyone who doesn't take a deployment slot can be.

And Calill/Soren are that important as well? Do try without him, tell me how fast that goes. I could complete their chapters fast and I could completely ignore the mages, but Eddie actually speeds up the process of part 1.

Its sort of like Geoffery, except some things get in the way of that. 1. Eddie is far better to Leo and Miccy during his time in 1-P than Geoff is to his team due to Keiran's existence. You can go fast with Keiran, Geoff is not exactly necessary. Eddie can go fast in his part, and he's the only one who can. He only meets competition with Nolan the next chapter, of which then it's a similar case. Same with chapter 1-2. Sothe might be in it, but he's doing very little getting the chests for your precious Thani. I can honestly have Michaiah attacking the ledge javelin soldier before he even shows up (I just did this no less, and I can give details). Speaking of which, Narga you're right. Draco on Miccy does help here. This is already 1 more chapter than of which Geoff can claim the same because that's the number of good chapters he has.

Eddie's not even done yet. he still has uses in 1-3, 1-4, and 1-5 since we don't quite have ways to just hyperspeed through those chapters. On TOP of all that, we CAN train him to be good in part 4, while Geoff is stuck always sucking part 4.

So for chapters 1-4 and 1-5, you had best tell me how Eddie is worse than an empty slot before I start believing you. Especially sine it's been said for 1-4 that he is better than using Aran to wall off the laguz...

Edited October 9, 2009 by France

[Ether]

4-3 is a desert with status staves,which is again,perfect for micaiah.

One of which is a Silence staff which has a perfectly reasonable chance of silencing Micaiah, making her useless for 5 turns. That's not perfect for her.

It always goes after Laura. Maybe it's because my Laura is a higher level or has less res or something. If it's just the res, then it's fine because Laura existing will draw the guy regardless of level. And 5 turns? Equip a restore staff. She misses out on 2 player phases. Except given the existence of the sleep staff user, check this:

equip restore staff on turn 1. Didn't get to attack stuff.

slept, silenced.

restored. Restores sleepy Haar (or whomever).

slept, silenced.

restored. Restores sleepy Haar.

So she wasn't doing something helpful for 1 player phase, and she wouldn't be tanking on enemy phase anyway.

So not a problem, like Ether said it isn't.

As for Elincia in 4-E-1: She grinds Micaiah's offence into dust. Micaiah doesn't OHKO with thani, and doesn't double. Elincia could be high enough leveled to ORKO at least the weaker generals (and possibly even the stronger ones), but even if she isn't, she's likely doing at least 40 hp damage to their 50 to 52 hp and has 4 chances to stun. Compared to Micaiah's chance of Flare?

I do like Micaiah's immortality in 4-E-3, though. It doesn't do much damage to whites, but still enough to get back to full hp. Elincia gets wyrmslayers and ORKOs the whites, though, and has 9 move and canto. Also, 2 shots at stun for wyrmslayer on reds, or 4 chances to stun with amiti. She's probably not 6HKOing them, though, but an 8HKO would only require two stuns and even one stun makes the thing utterly useless. They both have use here.

As for the spirits, Elincia has amiti and 9 move and canto. She can basically ORKO any spirit almost anywhere (45 mt with 4 hits ORKOs anything on cover(1), and with a +mt support ORKOs all but fire even on cover(2), and cover(2) is +15 def). Lack of 2 range with that option is minor since we'd only use it to KO the last spirit that moves. Also, Alondite should ORKO any spirit not on tiles that give defence, so those reinforcement spirits that pop in on wardwood, or the ones on turn 1 wardwood. Still has 2 range for enemy phase. Micaiah needs 39 magic and a blessed purge and 29 speed and standing next to Nasir to ORKO from a distance. Elincia is arguably better than Tibarn in 4-E-1 and 4-E-4 and even 4-E-5 thanks to Amiti. And she can use fortify, even if for not as many hp as Micaiah would restore.

And in 4-2 she should be quadding by turn 6 or so anyway, and two-shotting swordmasters. With Lucia's bond she's even immune to crits, daunt accomplishes that too.

I don't think there is a tier gap, fun though it would be to see Micaiah in high. But I don't picture Micaiah in high.

So she doesn't win part 4,she's still pretty close due to superior healing,acceptable offense,and chapters practically catered to her.

So basically it's 2-E vs. Micky's part 1 and 3,with Elincia getting a small boost from her part 4.

Is that worth a tier gap.I would still say so.

[Dat Nick]

Late but I didn't get a chance to read this until just now:

So yeah, Athena, do you think Ed > Calill/Soren because of 1-P? (If you don't agree with the BKs position, then assuming we leave BK where he is do you think it is consistent to put Ed > Calill/Soren?)

I dunno, I think Soren was considered as good as the rest of the non Mist/Rofl GMs or was that another one of Jackal's hype attempts down the gutter? [He IMed me like "hey Soren might go way up"] But at least above Calill, I feel he's doing more for utility than she is, for more chapters. [He's forced in 1-3 and 1-2 as well and you'll probably use him in 1-4 as well, even though he admittedly kind of sucks there]

...Oh, and nobody has anything to say about Tauroneo v. Black Knight? There really shouldn't be a tier difference between them when Taur godmodes his chapters just as well as the BK, and he has more of them to work with as well.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[Narga_Rocks]

Late but I didn't get a chance to read this until just now:

So yeah, Athena, do you think Ed > Calill/Soren because of 1-P? (If you don't agree with the BKs position, then assuming we leave BK where he is do you think it is consistent to put Ed > Calill/Soren?)

I dunno, I think Soren was considered as good as the rest of the non Mist/Rofl GMs or was that another one of Jackal's hype attempts down the gutter? [He IMed me like "hey Soren might go way up"] But at least above Calill, I feel he's doing more for utility than she is, for more chapters. [He's forced in 1-3 and 1-2 as well and you'll probably use him in 1-4 as well, even though he admittedly kind of sucks there]

...Oh, and nobody has anything to say about Tauroneo v. Black Knight? There really shouldn't be a tier difference between them when Taur godmodes his chapters just as well as the BK, and he has more of them to work with as well.

Even with the 3-12 crown I don't see any godmoding by Taur in 3-12 and 3-13. He's really no better than Nolan in 3-13, and Volug is probably still better. Also, Zihark and Volug in 3-12. Really, it's just 1-6-1 and 1-6-2. Except he's still kinda slow moving in 1-6-1, though he doesn't have to ever take less than full move to prevent dying. Still, he's really good in 1-6-1, but Zihark/Sothe/Volug are nothing to sneeze at there, and even Micky is useful on armors, whether it's the ones in the north east to get the hammer for someone or the ones in the west. In 1-6-2, he's part of the 2 turn clear, but that's not the only way to do the chapter. You can also have him and another unit blocking the bridge in the south while Volug and Jill carrying Sothe go up north and save Fiona then Sothe draws the boss from the east and counters on enemy phase and Jill and Volug can gang up on the poor thing while Sothe steals paragon for fun (I know it drops). Anyway, he's good, and his ORKOing and not dying are better than the other units and he's capable of cutting turns in 1-6-2 and in 1-6-1 while he's not the only guy routing it would probably take longer without him, he's not quite pulling a BK. Tier gap is justified, though you could try to move him above Heather I suppose.

And for France:

1-2 boss so that Sothe can get chest and other units can kill the other enemies and Laura can arrive.

1-3 boss so that Sothe can steal discipline. Also makes it easier to go down west side for anyone unwilling to go down east side.

1-5 enemies near starting position so that she can combo with Aran or something to KO an enemy with just two of them

1-6 armors.

1-7 armors.

3-6 actually help out if we don't easy button (what with it not being assumed)

3-13 more magic = more range and healing on physic

4-P paladin OHKOing after they are injured. Can KO more paladins hit by weaker units.

4-3 not ORKOd while recruiting Stefan, since she can mostly avoid enemies while doing so but not necessarily avoid all enemies

Anyway, the most important of those if you easy button are the earlier ones, and OHKOing is better than needing someone to poke at them, since they could be required to poke at someone else.

As for where multiple enemies occur and Ed's durability slows him down or puts him at risk if wrath is equipped:

1-3 fair amount of enemies in the west, even in the east he can face 2 at once in one spot

1-4 the Ed strategy works because the enemies are one at a time. Sometimes they could be 3 deep.

1-5 on the centre ledge there are enemies to clear and once you are ledge guarding the wind edge (if it 4HKOs and he doubles) could end up killing something and getting him attacked twice at ~30% hit rates because the enemies just have too much hit so even the ledge thing doesn't fix the problem

1-6-1 centre area, left area, armor swarm in the northeast

1-6-2 cavalier rush on the bridge.

After that I guess easy button means no Eddie, and you were arguing in the context of the easy button. Which also nullifies 1-6-2 since he shouldn't be deployed under those guidelines and it's just Micky/Sothe/Volug/Taur/Jill.

Still, easy button isn't assumed.

[Florete]

Who is this everyone else? He's doing more damage immediately. Unlike them, he also can crit far more often.

Sothe rolfstomps.

Nolan wins.

Leonardo wins. (Higher base Str + Bows are stronger than Swords after Iron)

Micaiah (Mag damage, lol)

Ilyana (same deal)

Aran (More Str + Lances > Swords in MT).

So he beats Meg. Congratulations on being superior to the third worst unit in the game.

What is the difference between Michaiah with 2 levels and Eddie with 2? Eddie doubles in the next chapter, Michaiah does 1 more damage. Which one sounds better? I think the former. You're giving Michaiah effort for results faaaarrr later (I will point out the condtradiction later), while for Eddie I get results now. Incredible bias for one who isn;t putting it all anywhere near to good use any time soon.

Wtf are you even trying to say? That Edward can get two levels in 1-P? Bullshit. Don't forget that Micaiah's base level is 1 while Edward's is 4, so she has higher experience gain. Even with the boss kill Edward won't get past 5 for 1-1, and so he only has a 60% chance to double. And that's not even all of the enemies.

In the end, the point isn't even that he can't get the levels, as he can probably reach level 6 in the middle of 1-1, it's that his chances of doubling consistently get smaller and smaller to the point where you can't even say he's doubling at all. Showing how borderline it is now just shows how fast it starts.

But apparently, 1 more damage is so much more important to you...

It kinda pisses me off how you talk like this, especially when you can't back anything up with actual stats. Ffs, I've gone over this before, the last time you wanted to raise Edward. Do you know what Micaiah needs to OHKO the 1-2 boss? 9 Mag. That's +2 Mag from base.

Do you know what she needs for the 1-3 boss? 10 Mag. Do the math.

"But Sothe support."

Already factored in. So I think I can say I see results from leveling Micaiah now.

Light affinity? Luck? Skill? Hello?

Math? Do you know it?

Level 8 Edward, 13.6 (I'll round to 14) Skl, 10 Luck.

60 (Wind Edge Hit) + 28 (skl) + 10 (Luck) + 3 (any C support) = 101. Spectacular. Maybe my ~100 mid part 1 was a little low depending on when that is, but not by much. And then enemies generally have 30-40 avoid, and Biorythm might not be on his side.

This is assuming your focusing all your effort into Michaiah for his part 4, which is mindless. Wanna know why? Well gee, aren't we pushing the easy button for the DB? Even with the effort, what time does she have to get any power?

However, let's think that statement over. Is enemy density in part 1 really that thick? I vouch not, not to the amount that it would put this situation to high alert that often. I can outline some strategies if you wish.

Wtf are you even trying to say? That Edward's poor durability is a non-issue?

And I remember you trying to argue Lyn to Jailbait tier despite the fact she's likely better because she can dodge and double.

Well do entertain me the notion, what better use is there? Enemy density is low part 1. Why are we having Eddie play defensively? Honestly, it seems stupid at times that we can't afford him player phase at all, when enemies are not that numerous in part 1. It's not like GM part 3 where enemies are tightly condensed like sardines, they tend to be a bit spread out. Take advantage of crappy teamwork you could say.

Edward attacks, takes a counter.

Enemy attacks on their phase and Edward dies.

Oops.

Also, I don't know where you're getting that enemies are always spread out, or whatever you're trying to say. 1-P is the only map I can think of where they tend to come at you one-by-one.

Having minute damage tacking on is not impressive, and at some point in part 1 and 3, we stop caring. 1-6 rolls around, the DB can go fuck themselves really. Fly Taur up to kill the boss, the LEA take care of 1-7, 1-8 is enough of a mess, 1-9 can be taken care of by the BK and just positioning smartly (saying Michaiah can take a shot with training and resources is an enemy not targeting the BK, AKA a waste of my time). I don't think I have to explain 1-E.

Then what the fuck did we bother with Edward for? You've been talking about him getting kills so he can double but what was the point?

Then part 3, 3-6 Sothe Savior's and we let the BK handle everything. 3-12, Taur crowns and destroys the numbers. This leaves 3-13, where she's stuck on a ledge. Michaiah's only good if you don't easy button the DB. Training Eddie to team up with Nolan for pre-base part 1 is more an easy button than doing the same with Miccy.

All this for part 4 Thani-bombing? We should have far more capable units by now, I don't think we will miss the bombing of a single unit for player phase, especially since she should have healing to do now, thanks to having staffs.

Note, name horses and armors in part 1 prior to easy-button mode that is so important that we need Michaiah up to high power. Because once easy buttons come in, I could care less what she's capable of because no effort-needing DB is worth the effort at that point anymore, Miccy included.

All of this would only stand to get Edward lower, if it moves him at all. Compare him to Tormod, who's actually good for his 3 part 1 maps and is currently below Edward. Edward is not going anywhere based on 1-P, 1-1, and 1-4 and then "pressing the easy button" for the rest. And if you're trying to say Edward > Micaiah, stop talking now before I lose all respect for you as a debater.

In any case, this "easy button" of yours is not usually assumed, and usually only used as an advantage for the units that are a part of it because they can do this, partly because I don't really find it to be very reliable, especially for 3-12, and 3-6 means I can't send Savior to the GM's which is a part of some of the quick clears there (One "easy button" eliminates another). In any situation we don't use the "easy button," and even usually when we do, leveling Micaiah is still a good idea and easy to do with Thani. No, it's not necessary, but it's very helpful to have some of the tougher enemies that the rest of my team struggles against be taken out in a single blow, as well as having an adequate healer for part 3.

Its sort of like Geoffery, except some things get in the way of that. 1. Eddie is far better to Leo and Miccy during his time in 1-P than Geoff is to his team due to Keiran's existence. You can go fast with Keiran, Geoff is not exactly necessary. Eddie can go fast in his part, and he's the only one who can. He only meets competition with Nolan the next chapter, of which then it's a similar case. Same with chapter 1-2. Sothe might be in it, but he's doing very little getting the chests for your precious Thani. I can honestly have Michaiah attacking the ledge javelin soldier before he even shows up (I just did this no less, and I can give details). Speaking of which, Narga you're right. Draco on Miccy does help here. This is already 1 more chapter than of which Geoff can claim the same because that's the number of good chapters he has.

Then this is probably a sign that Geoffrey might need to go down, not Edward up.

The thing is, Geoffrey's performance in his chapters is actually good, while Edward's is only passable because you don't really have anyone else for a bit of time.

So for chapters 1-4 and 1-5, you had best tell me how Eddie is worse than an empty slot before I start believing you. Especially sine it's been said for 1-4 that he is better than using Aran to wall off the laguz...

I never said he was. You'll notice I said "Only as useful as anyone who doesn't take a deployment slot can be." Meg doesn't take a slot in 1-4, 1-5 or 1-6, is she good there?

No, she still fails. Hard.

[tehnikhil]

Just wondering, why is Mia so high? I mean, is she really considered that strong that she is so close to Sothe, the Jegian that always finds use?

[Sol Hiryu]

Summed up, Mia is a complete beast when given access to resources that she uses the best (Adept, Cancel, Ike support), and not many will surpass her offensive power on the field. This continues throughout the game, and she helps your army's efficiency the best with those items.

She also hides the Cheeto Puffs under her dress.

[Interceptor]

The reason that she's high as she is has mostly to do with her position with a number of resources. She's Ike's best support partner, best with Adept, Cancel, have big durability increases with Vantage and critforges, and generally has very good offense at all times, managing to even be a threat to Generals. It's really hard to argue that she's not a member of the very fastest and most efficient teams.

More complicated than just that quick blurb, but that's the gist.

[Narga_Rocks]

It helps that if you don't give anything to anybody (including her) aside from steel blade/poleax/greatlance/bow she'll still have better offence than all but Ike until Janaff shows up. Well, 13 mt steel blade vs. 10 mt steel bow means that Shinon has 1 mt on her at base, but considering fire affinity and lower base level and higher str growth, I'd have to say that doesn't last long. So since her durability grows so much with an Ike support compared to the durability others reach with it and considering she's got better offence than the rest, too, it's not unreasonable to give her the Ike support since it boosts the overall durability of the team and the enemy phase offence. Then you start distributing the rest of the stuff you have and you get a bunch of monsters, of which Mia is a very good one. It's a consequence of being one of the few that can actually double.

More complicated than just that quick blurb, but that's the gist.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[tehnikhil]

Ah I see. Thanks. Also, how about Elincia>Tibarn? Elincia is doing fail in 2-P with her slim stick. 2-E I will admit that she is pretty key with psychic. Come part 4, though, Tibarn is with her. She may be able to use a staff to heal people, but Tibarn allows the chapter to be speedrun. I am assuming that this is like the other tier lists where you are trying to get max BEXP, so when you look at chapter 4-5, Tibarn is the only reason that you are getting max bexp, I am pretty sure he is the 2nd best fighter without resources (dunno if cain>him), and stays in top 5 considering people get their wanted resources (Mia). Sure Elincia gives support and all, but just considering that Tibarn is a god for all 7 chapters he is in, no matter what level he is at, seems to be enough to merrit that he is above Elincia.

Boy, this board is so much better than the Gfaqs one. They really do need to update that board XP.

[Interceptor]

More like they need to nuke that board from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

[Narga_Rocks]

Ah I see. Thanks. Also, how about Elincia>Tibarn? Elincia is doing fail in 2-P with her slim stick. 2-E I will admit that she is pretty key with psychic. Come part 4, though, Tibarn is with her. She may be able to use a staff to heal people, but Tibarn allows the chapter to be speedrun. I am assuming that this is like the other tier lists where you are trying to get max BEXP, so when you look at chapter 4-5, Tibarn is the only reason that you are getting max bexp, I am pretty sure he is the 2nd best fighter without resources (dunno if cain>him), and stays in top 5 considering people get their wanted resources (Mia). Sure Elincia gives support and all, but just considering that Tibarn is a god for all 7 chapters he is in, no matter what level he is at, seems to be enough to merrit that he is above Elincia.

Well, it mostly comes down to Amiti and added staff use. Also, being the only unit that ORKOs almost everything on the map and being your only healer for 2-E helps. Tibarn only really has that going on (except minus the healing) in 4-2, except Elincia does better compared to Tibarn there than Haar does compared to Elincia in 2-E. She's doing split duties, sure, but that's what Leanne is for. Even 2-P, though, her staff is good since it means you don't have to wait for Haar. Marcia gets more experience and does better in 2-3 and 2-E and 3-9. Among the units that Elincia ORKOs are those annoying crossbow users and bowgun users, and since she 2HKOs them they happen to die before they can OHKO her. Frees up the skies in 2-E for Marcia and Nealuchi, too. As for part 4, her only really slow chapter is the first part of 4-2. Of course, she needs paragon in 4-2 to reach her potential, but considering what she does with paragon vs. what others do? And even there she's probably your only physic user unless you put scrolls on Soren/Ilyana or if you take Laura/Rhys away from Micaiah/Ike team or if you crown Pelleas in 4-2. 4-2 isn't going to be fast enough for that to not matter. Anyway, by 4-5 she's pretty good offensively and can probably ORKO the boss just like Tibarn, so at this point he's no more crucial than she is. Also, 56 mt fails to ORKO any generals in 4-E-1 with 51hp/31 def, and anything with more in either stat. Elincia at this point will have a better proc rate for KOing thanks to 4 hits, and she's even got a chance at having the mt to 100% ORKO the ones he 100% ORKOs. And she can heal so you can get Micaiah and Elincia physicing 2 somethings on the same turn if it is necessary. 4-E-2 can be short, so it doesn't matter as much, but she can still ORKO most of it, and still has staves. Tibarn actually comes up short against white dragons, while Elincia can ORKO with a wyrmslayer (there's like 6 possible ones in existence). Tibarn 4HKOs reds and Elincia can 3HKO with wyrmslayer, but he gets two shots at tear and she'd only get 2 shots with a lower % at stun. Even with a +mt support and max str 47 mt against 77hp/38def red dragons means 9HKO, so even two stuns won't cut it. Of course, the 36 def variety can be 8HKOd by amiti and a C +mt support. Either way, while 2 stuns is probably less likely than one tear, a single stun would mean a frozen dragon, which isn't as good as a dead dragon but is still pretty helpful. Then in 4-E-4 she can ORKO spirits just like him, though she can pick up Alondite and ORKO the ones that aren't on def boosting tiles. The ones cover(1) tiles still die to amiti. So she has 2 more range on the first turn and the same range thereafter, though only 10 range for Amiti compared to his 11. Then in 4-E-5 she can use tides to ORKO auras, but tides won't let him ORKO auras. I mean, he's great here for using parity to assist a swordmaster in KOing a cover tile aura, but she can take one out on her own. So they are both useful.

Anyway, he's obviously more durable, at times by a lot, but she does have availability on him and staves and ORKOs almost as much as him, and at times more. That's generally why a lot of people have agreed to leave Elincia over Tibarn.

Boy, this board is so much better than the Gfaqs one. They really do need to update that board XP.

I particularly like the edit button, though the quote system and emoticons are fun too. I like that quotes can also be made to be links. Also, I don't think there is a character limit for posts. There is a limit to the number of quote boxes, but it's a big number and only comes up in truly massive posts. So naturally I've hit the quote box limit a few times. And it's nice that you can put urls and pictures in posts and people don't have to copy paste to see it. Pictures just show up and links can actually be clicked and you'll go to the page. There is just so much that is better set up than the Gamefaqs boards that I can't go into everything and I've undoubtedly forgotten many features other people love. Oh, PMing is good, too.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[tehnikhil]

Ah cool. Thanks for the fast response too ^^. XD, that is why I am kinda staying with Smash's tier list anyways XD. Here, it seems that everything is pretty much set, while Smash's is still kinda like liquid if you can get something through him without him diluting himself too much not to change a position. Well, if I find something that I am serious about, I may actually type up a few walls of text (look at smash's tier list for my text walls XD), but until then, I think I am going to first figure out why everyone is where they are XP.

Oh, and this tier list is based off of HM, right?

Edited October 9, 2009 by tehnikhil

[grandjackal]

Sothe rolfstomps.

Nolan wins.

Leonardo wins. (Higher base Str + Bows are stronger than Swords after Iron)

Micaiah (Mag damage, lol)

Ilyana (same deal)

Aran (More Str + Lances > Swords in MT).

So he beats Meg. Congratulations on being superior to the third worst unit in the game.

Yes, because Eddie only strikes once. Are you sandbagging him on purpose?

Wtf are you even trying to say? That Edward can get two levels in 1-P? Bullshit. Don't forget that Micaiah's base level is 1 while Edward's is 4, so she has higher experience gain. Even with the boss kill Edward won't get past 5 for 1-1, and so he only has a 60% chance to double. And that's not even all of the enemies.

Just went through it, just did it. Not that hard, got to level 6. If you think he's that far off, a strike will net him one the next level, aside from oh gee the fucking boss and the one archer on the map. He's not leveling the speed of molasses, he's not Sothe, not even on Nolan's level.

When did it become "all kills must become equal", then later in the game we're playing "tribute to the kings" style? Are you seriously saying 1 damage is more important than doubling?

In the end, the point isn't even that he can't get the levels, as he can probably reach level 6 in the middle of 1-1, it's that his chances of doubling consistently get smaller and smaller to the point where you can't even say he's doubling at all. Showing how borderline it is now just shows how fast it starts.

Because everyone else on your team at that time has the ability to do so *sarcasm*. You're measuring Eddie based on giving him little, and your excuse is Miccy doing a couple more damage.

It kinda pisses me off how you talk like this, especially when you can't back anything up with actual stats. Ffs, I've gone over this before, the last time you wanted to raise Edward. Do you know what Micaiah needs to OHKO the 1-2 boss? 9 Mag. That's +2 Mag from base.

Do you know what she needs for the 1-3 boss? 10 Mag. Do the math.

Ok, we have more units than Michaiah. If we're going west, chances are we're fighting the boss who is alone at the time. We can afford to have someone chip him, because his other soldiers are either the not moving armors, or the soldiers who have to deal with moving through bushes.

Same with the 1-2 boss. How slow are you taking it to let Sothe get to the energy drop chest? Here, let me outline it for you.

Miccy gets shoved up north by Laura

She climbs up, chips the axefighter, Nolan climbs up and shoves steel in his face. Fighter dead. I'm already halfway there.

Eddie goes right after Leo chips the soldier. Eddie could be doubling them, but apparently 1 enemy on the map that surprise WE DON'T HAVE TO KILL is more important.

Soldiers with their bronze does 8 and 9 damage, putting him to 5 HP, Wrath health. Since he would be doubling, that is 55 displayed crit at 2 chances. More likely than not, he will crit kill both.

Axe fighter on the right moves in towards Nolan, before the pillar, a space between them. Sothe opens the north door.

Leo chips the axe fighter, Laura heals, Eddie moves up and shoves Leo down, equips steel.

Miccy attacks javelin dude under the ledge. 5 displayed, I'm fair to take the risk. Nolan parks to her side.

The north soldiers come down, one attacks Michaiah. This guy.

1x Soldier lvl 7 (Iron Lance)

HP 24, Atk 18, AS 10, Hit 111, Avo 26, DEF 9, RES 4, Crit 5, Ddg 6

I gave Miccy the dracoshield (in case you thought I was being a meany to poor Miccy), even base Miccy can take it. Axefighter attacks Nolan. This is the first strike Nolan has taken this chapter. In case you think I was spoiling Eddie with everything, I should note that this causes Nolan to level up. Javelin soldier fails to hit Miccy, she counters. Sothe now arrives.

Sothe kills the attacker of Miccy, Nolan sets up parameter and hand axes the fighter, Miccy kills javelin. Eddie is in attack range of the soldier on the boss's ledge and downs a vulnery. Leo is close by. Laura follows Eddie.

Sothe kills hte random steeler (srsly, wtf is he doing here?) on enemy phase, the one soldier by the boss ledge climbs down and attacks Eddie, Eddie counters and doubles (iron of course).

Sothe moves down to get the southern chests, Laura heals Eddie, Eddie kills the soldier, Leo shoves Laura left, Nolan and Miccy moving towards the upper center. Did I mention this is turn 3?

Center room archer attacks Nolan, Nolan counters, Sothe slays the swordsman, gets key.

Nolan charges the soldier in the doorway of the boss's chamber, Sothe gets Wing Edge, Miccy hangs back, Eddie climbs ledge to attack steel bowman. If he got a level this map, he could double, but I'll just say he hit him with steel for 11 damage. leaves him with 12 HP.

Soldier attacks Nolan, soldier dies. Archer could attack anyone really, it wouldn't matter.

Nolan kills the archer, steel bow get. Leo shoves Laura again, Sothe moves up to trade it up with Leo, Eddie moves down from the ledge. Laura moves north on the left side to get to the door.

Next turn, Sothe trades Thani to Laura and shoves, who trades Thani to Miccy and shoves, Miccy bombs a chipped boss. Leo trades key to Eddie, Eddie climbs up to trade key to Nolan, Nolan gets energy drops.

Eddie meet Sothe in center room for the wing edge, Laura hits the door.

6 turns.

"But Sothe support."

Already factored in. So I think I can say I see results from leveling Micaiah now.

He's not necessary.

Math? Do you know it?

Level 8 Edward, 13.6 (I'll round to 14) Skl, 10 Luck.

60 (Wind Edge Hit) + 28 (skl) + 10 (Luck) + 3 (any C support) = 101. Spectacular. Maybe my ~100 mid part 1 was a little low depending on when that is, but not by much. And then enemies generally have 30-40 avoid, and Biorythm might not be on his side.

Eddie could be level 8 by 1-3, perhaps more. Average avoid is 28. So take away the C, he'd have 70 hit. Level 13 Nolan has 104 hit with the Hand Axe, so he has a grand total of 6 hit. Pardon me if I think that isn't too bad for an inaccurate weapon.

I dunno about you, but I usually have Eddie around level 10-11 by 1-5.

Wtf are you even trying to say? That Edward's poor durability is a non-issue?

I have not run into a major issue with it yet. Where do you get the idea there are swarms and swarms of enemies ready to take up an attack slot after Eddie's killed someone in part 1 where his contribution actually matters, and the enemy actually endangers him?

And I remember you trying to argue Lyn to Jailbait tier despite the fact she's likely better because she can dodge and double.

Yeah, when the lancereavers appear she can dodge. That was also in a game where everyone not Bartre, Dorcas and Oswin is doubling and thus ORKIng, while she can't do that. Those guys also have the ability to not be easy to be killed. That WOULD be a fair comparison, if Eddie wasn't the only one doubling outside of Sothe until Volug shows up. Even then, he's one of the three.

Edward attacks, takes a counter.

Enemy attacks on their phase and Edward dies.

Oops.

Where is this magical monster who teleports?

Also, I don't know where you're getting that enemies are always spread out, or whatever you're trying to say. 1-P is the only map I can think of where they tend to come at you one-by-one.

I could say the same of the reverse for you. I've yet to run into a problem, and I've gotten through the game quite quick.

If you're thinking of enemies in 1-1, they don't bring him to wrath range, but I'd still love to see you do this any quicker without him, or at least any safer.

Then what the fuck did we bother with Edward for? You've been talking about him getting kills so he can double but what was the point?

The same reason we just have the prepromotes take care of everything for the rest of part 1, to get the fuck out of it faster/less painfully. Show me where Michaiah gets such abilities herself. Oh wait, she doesn't.

Giving kills to Eddie helps us get through part 1 faster than giving kills to Miccy. All giving kills to Miccy does is help 1 enemy be easier to kill (since the two are bosses, and one is not necessary to kill). I will not cry tiers over 1 enemy, of which I can do anyways with just having 1 person chip. Is that seriously the crux of doing the entire early part 1 efficiently? I highly doubt it.

All of this would only stand to get Edward lower, if it moves him at all. Compare him to Tormod, who's actually good for his 3 part 1 maps and is currently below Edward. Edward is not going anywhere based on 1-P, 1-1, and 1-4 and then "pressing the easy button" for the rest. And if you're trying to say Edward > Micaiah, stop talking now before I lose all respect for you as a debater.

It certainly brings question to all DB. Every time they're brought up, the counter is "tough shit, raising them requires us to not push the easy button, so they aren't going up". I can see why Zihark is so high (he starts great, but he's a fastforward for 3-12 and 3-13), I can see why Jill is there (can end up fantastic, but also helps fly Taur up to skip 1-6-2), I can see why Nolan is up there (more important than Eddie basically, though they help do the same thing, just Nolan needs no effort, and is always better basically forever by a great margin). Why the fuck is Aran up there? He is far from Jill's helpfulness, he doesn't really contribute to anything off the bat (basically Eddie, except he gets good right when hte fastforward buttons come into play), and at best he's taking an extra shot during part 3.

Basically the DB suffer a major problem, that half the cast is treated as if we aren't playing efficiently (as in going through it as fast and clean as possible), while the other half is punished for it, Eddie not even fitting in the former. Why is this?

In any case, this "easy button" of yours is not usually assumed, and usually only used as an advantage for the units that are a part of it because they can do this, partly because I don't really find it to be very reliable, especially for 3-12, and 3-6 means I can't send Savior to the GM's which is a part of some of the quick clears there (One "easy button" eliminates another). In any situation we don't use the "easy button," and even usually when we do, leveling Micaiah is still a good idea and easy to do with Thani. No, it's not necessary, but it's very helpful to have some of the tougher enemies that the rest of my team struggles against be taken out in a single blow, as well as having an adequate healer for part 3.

THIS is where things get troublesome for me perhaps, it's all part 3. It keeps being said we're just getting through it, but now you're saying easy buttons aren't assumed? If that's the case, why the fuck is Zihark so high? He's great in part 1 before he gets outclassed almost immediately by the LEA and soon to come Nailah and BK. Part 3, I've shown that Eddie can in fact be Zihark's better. Part 4, he's worse than freaking Lucia upon returning. So great part 1 where he's soon outclassed (hell, I'd say he already is. Jill flies Taur, Taur is better, Volug and Sothe are certainly better, LEA come to destroy him, lolNailah and BK), average at best part 3, meh part 4. How is this high tier material?

If we just went through part 1 normally instead of just easy buttoning, then a lot of things with this list's problems just vanish.

There's just so many things that convolute this list that it strangles it to make everything unwinnable, and even when points are made, the list doesn't change at all. It keeps being said that we just rush through part 1 and give everything to the GMs. Now it's not being assumed? What? Well if I don't need to savior Miccy with Sothe to have the BK easy mode everything to do it efficiently (hint, you don't), then I have no problem giving Savior to the GMs. However, this means I need actual people to help me out. Zihark and Nolan can't do it alone.

And I do agree with you on part 3, these arguments of which to easy mode part 3 are shaky. 3-12, I believe it was brought up, but 1-13? The hawks? You need Leo to level 10 and Nolan promoted to do something about them, or else you are always gonna lose if you just used the speed forward button, because you have weak people lying about. They can fly over, kill someone and open a plugged spot. Then they fly up and go uncontested to climb the ledge and bam, game over.

If you are not assuming the fastforward buttons aren't being used, treat the list as such. We should give credit to those who CAN, but don't treat like everyone who isn't is worthless.

Even considering, this is ignorng the point. Eddie can help things go faster early part 1. Does Calill make anything go faster her parts? Does Soren? No, not even close.

Then this is probably a sign that Geoffrey might need to go down, not Edward up.

The thing is, Geoffrey's performance in his chapters is actually good, while Edward's is only passable because you don't really have anyone else for a bit of time.

Eddie needs effort to be good, true, but Eddie once given effort is good for longer. Geoff simply is good for a static number, then returns as a shit pile.

One way or another I can agree that they need to be closer.

I never said he was. You'll notice I said "Only as useful as anyone who doesn't take a deployment slot can be." Meg doesn't take a slot in 1-4, 1-5 or 1-6, is she good there?

No, she still fails. Hard.

Are you implying Eddie is dumped at this point because you felt Miccy one shotting one unnecessary kill and an actually necessary boss of which one chipping can do the same thing regardless was more efficient than having someone with better offense towards everything else?

One of us has skewed vision...

[Narga_Rocks]

Ah cool. Thanks for the fast response too ^^. XD, that is why I am kinda staying with Smash's tier list anyways XD. Here, it seems that everything is pretty much set, while Smash's is still kinda like liquid if you can get something through him without him diluting himself too much not to change a position. Well, if I find something that I am serious about, I may actually type up a few walls of text (look at smash's tier list for my text walls XD), but until then, I think I am going to first figure out why everyone is where they are XP.

No problem. You can ask why a unit is in a certain spot and we'll say. And we still move units around now and again. Once a unit went up 8 spots and another went up 6 spots at the same time and in the space of just a few days. It was cool. Micaiah has been pushing towards Elincia and will probably get over her soon enough. Just a few weeks ago she was like 6 spots lower or something. Ranulf got pushed down 8 or so spots in the space of a few weeks.

Also, at some point we may or may not get an addition of about 30 units to the list in the form of ****(T) in which we compare the reasonable transfer versions of characters to the non-transfer versions of all the characters. If they get added, I'm sure there will be lots of new characters to move around.

Oh, and this tier list is based off of HM, right?

Yep. We don't need no stinkin' weapon triangle.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

Ah cool. Thanks for the fast response too ^^. XD, that is why I am kinda staying with Smash's tier list anyways XD. Here, it seems that everything is pretty much set, while Smash's is still kinda like liquid if you can get something through him without him diluting himself too much not to change a position. Well, if I find something that I am serious about, I may actually type up a few walls of text (look at smash's tier list for my text walls XD), but until then, I think I am going to first figure out why everyone is where they are XP.

Oh, and this tier list is based off of HM, right?

Hard mode, here we go.

Sure is.

I wouldn't say everything here is set, but 3,000+ posts gets a lot done, as well as about 2,000 more posts that were lost in the time warp. If you have any questions about specific placements, chances are someone can link you to a post that explains it with at least some detail.

smash seems to have a lot of strange ideas about tiering this game, so it makes sense that there'd be a lot of clashing there.

We should give credit to those who CAN, but don't treat like everyone who isn't is worthless.

Okay, what the fuck? That's what I've always done. I even said in the very post you quoted. How dense can you get?

I might get to the rest later. Most of it seems strawman/non-sequitor-ish.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[RPGslave]

To France: I'm also not the greatest debator, but I can see what you should change your focus to. If you're going to look at Eddie's part one, then argue for a Nolan support and the dracoshield. Nolan wants the hit, the defense is helpful for both, and the extra avoid is nice as well so it's helpful for both. If you can look into the numbers (I suck with numbers) and prove that with a Nolan support and a possible draco that Eddie's durability improves significantly, then you can make a case for his part one. Otherwise, I would ignore his part one and compare his part three/four performance with Soren's and Calill's. That would be easier to do, as Calill has immediate competition from Soren and joins at a lower level than him, and Eddie's at his best later on. Use the whole "If they are being compared, they are assumed to be used" thing to your advantage. Be prepared to show that Eddie can gain the levels in part one though (that will be the hard part). I think you have a bigger chance of getting Calill/Soren to move down than you have of getting Eddie to move up, if that makes sense.

I'm still working on a way to convince people that Reyson's performance isn't enough to make him the best unit in the game. Yes, I just brought that up AGAIN. I'm stubborn and will continue to do it until it gets a definitive shooting down or something. >_>

I can understand that using Reyson can help turn counts for the GMs, but the GMs are awesome enough and their chapters are easy enough for them to not care all that much. How many turns can he shave off? Reyson still needs laguz gems/olivi grass on his first turn, and during that first turn Ike (for example) is moving into a position where the most enemies can get murdered by him. Yes Reyson can give Ike another player phase and a chance to reposition for a better enemy phase, but it's ultimately the person being vigored doing the work. Is allowing someone else to get more kills/heals in a big enough deal to make him the best in the game? It's not Reyson doing the work, it's who he vigors. So can someone who is completely dependant on others capable of being the best character in this game? I'm probably grasping at straws here, but I just can't see him as the best character in this game. I know I didn't mention his part four, but I'll do that later unless someone else wants to.

But for now, I sleep. XD

Edit/Another note to France: Stop with the Micky stuff, it won't go far and can only hurt Eddie. I can see where you're going with it, you're saying you can sacrifice a few kills for her to give to Eddie, but if you're going to do that then find out the minimum amount of magic she needs to OHKO things with Thani in part one. That way you'll be able to determine approximately when she gets that, and you can go from there. Also, don't put too much value on the few chapters Eddie has a free slot in; it hurts Eddie by helping people like Tormod/Taur.

Another edit, but this time about Reyson: I'm just going to go ahead and state where I think Reyson should be, and that's between Mia and Titania. Mia's offense is insane due to the resources she does the best with, and Titania is good too but her use fades over time. That's a lot of comparisons to make though, which I'm not up to yet. XD

Edited October 9, 2009 by RPGslave

[grandjackal]

The point is that Miccy killing one enemy, one of which isn't a necessary kill even, is not comparably efficient compared to Eddie's ability to not suck prior to the prepromotes showing up. By no means am I saying Miccy is worse than Eddie (I DID get that far with her with near base Miccy in 1-2, and I happen to know the potential power of mages), just that I'm saying Eddie given a bit of an extra cut improves notably so compared to Miccy, who's only real improvements are OHKOing a single boss of which you can just chip at with someone anyways, so it's not even that big a deal. I'm aware of her future prospects (Example, Paragon can help her catch up in 1-9, though people bitch that the GM don't get it, yet it's so important that Miccy Thani bombs people in part 4...), staff use, and the fact she IS that powerful against armors and cavs is enough to have a tier between them.

As for the second part of your post, RPG, I suppose I could drudge up numbers on how Eddie can potentially be better than Zihark in part 3 by a notable margin, while Calill and Soren are among the worst beforehand. Part 4, Calill might have a case as she's one of them fanceh mages who can double, and has staffs while Eddie's just a good combatant with a great friend. Soren has no excuse however.

Speaking of Tormod, I actually did try to argue him up earlier. It involved him outdoing Muarim offensively for the following reasons.

-No dependency on grass, and part 1 is so scarce that it actually effects the combat of Volug or part 3 laguz if we let him keep the one we have, of which we get in 1-9 which is incredibly random chance. Untransformed, he has Tormod's durability, and not even close to his offense. On top of this, Tormod can always counter range, while Muarim never can. In fact, even being targeted by range is a major bad for Muarm, as it cuts into his gauge. Tormod just kills them. Speaking of untransformed, crits effect him in a far worse way than Tormod.

-Tormod can forge, which allows him to ORKO more things.

-The fact he can make up for his durability with the fact that he attacks at range, so he always avoids the counter. Celerity also makes up for the move deficit prior to 1-E. Muarim is invincible when transformed, and Tormod is invincible because he can always avoid player phase counters. Technically, this makes them the same (Muarim is transformed about 1/3 the time, 1/3 of Tormod's offense is probably player phase), except Tormod can do this at range.

I don't recall it ever being acknowledged other than Narga seeing it to be fairly reasonable.

Edited October 9, 2009 by France

[Narga_Rocks]

The point is that Miccy killing one enemy, one of which isn't a necessary kill even, is not comparably efficient compared to Eddie's ability to not suck prior to the prepromotes showing up. By no means am I saying Miccy is worse than Eddie (I DID get that far with her with near base Miccy in 1-2, and I happen to know the potential power of mages), just that I'm saying Eddie given a bit of an extra cut improves notably so compared to Miccy, who's only real improvements are OHKOing a single boss of which you can just chip at with someone anyways, so it's not even that big a deal. I'm aware of her future prospects (Example, Paragon can help her catch up in 1-9, though people bitch that the GM don't get it, yet it's so important that Miccy Thani bombs people in part 4...), staff use, and the fact she IS that powerful against armors and cavs is enough to have a tier between them.

err. Micaiah needs 38 mt with Thani to OHKO the weakest armor in 1-7, and 40 mt for the strongest non-boss armor. 14 mag without Sothe present for the weakest, and he might have better things to do. And when there are multiples around, it's not as good if she needs chip first. Level 12 or 13 without Sothe for the stronger ones. 11/12 levels in 6 maps. I suppose that the cavaliers in 1-6-2 are pretty easy though, 34 mt for the best is only 10 mag. 38 mt for the armors in 1-6, though. Since Sothe could easily be busy running around getting the two items in the ground in 1-6-1 and going to the west with his 7 move that is only reduced through the Healhedge. So 14 mag is level 10. With just 1-P to 1-5 to train on, that's 9 levels in 6 maps.

Also, bandits in 1-8 have a stupidly high amount of hp/def. Sothe can have an iron knife forged with 7 mt, and say he has two levels so 19 str. 28 mt with Micaiah. 39hp/16def means 24 damage or 15 remaining. 7 res means Micaiah needs to have 22 mt. Again, 14 magic. Only 12 with a support. Level 10 isn't hard at all in 1-8, but considering Sothe moves first and Micaiah moves second? He's not getting her support, so only 20 damage. 19 remaining. 26 mt, or 16 magic. Level 12 or 13. Again, not so hard, but that's still 12 levels in 8 maps. And if we didn't use a max mt iron forge or if we are using a steel dagger to save forge uses? She's going to need more levels.

Her levels can't be ignored. Not saying you can't give Edward a decent amount of levels, just saying that her extra damage is useful.

As for the second part of your post, RPG, I suppose I could drudge up numbers on how Eddie can potentially be better than Zihark in part 3 by a notable margin, while Calill and Soren are among the worst beforehand. Part 4, Calill might have a case as she's one of them fanceh mages who can double, and has staffs while Eddie's just a good combatant with a great friend. Soren has no excuse however.

Pull the posts that have been done before comparing Zihark and Edward in 3-12 and part 4. You might need to reduce both their levels a bit since Red Fox of Fire was a little dubious about 20/15 for Z and 20/12 for Ed in 4-1/2. I'm not sure how notable the margin is, though. It's eventually like 2 mt and 1 def and 3 avo or something (Ed loses by a bit without Caladbolg equipped), but only if Zihark supported Jill. If he supported Earth (like Volug or even Nolan, since Ed and Zihark probably aren't coexisting in the same reality) then the def gap is wider but the avo gap shifts the other way by a lot.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

err. Micaiah needs 38 mt with Thani to OHKO the weakest armor in 1-7, and 40 mt for the strongest non-boss armor. 14 mag without Sothe present for the weakest, and he might have better things to do. And when there are multiples around, it's not as good if she needs chip first. Level 12 or 13 without Sothe for the stronger ones. 11/12 levels in 6 maps. I suppose that the cavaliers in 1-6-2 are pretty easy though, 34 mt for the best is only 10 mag. 38 mt for the armors in 1-6, though. Since Sothe could easily be busy running around getting the two items in the ground in 1-6-1 and going to the west with his 7 move that is only reduced through the Healhedge. So 14 mag is level 10. With just 1-P to 1-5 to train on, that's 9 levels in 6 maps.

Also, bandits in 1-8 have a stupidly high amount of hp/def. Sothe can have an iron knife forged with 7 mt, and say he has two levels so 19 str. 28 mt with Micaiah. 39hp/16def means 24 damage or 15 remaining. 7 res means Micaiah needs to have 22 mt. Again, 14 magic. Only 12 with a support. Level 10 isn't hard at all in 1-8, but considering Sothe moves first and Micaiah moves second? He's not getting her support, so only 20 damage. 19 remaining. 26 mt, or 16 magic. Level 12 or 13. Again, not so hard, but that's still 12 levels in 8 maps. And if we didn't use a max mt iron forge or if we are using a steel dagger to save forge uses? She's going to need more levels.

Her levels can't be ignored. Not saying you can't give Edward a decent amount of levels, just saying that her extra damage is useful.

Spirit Dust.

Pull the posts that have been done before comparing Zihark and Edward in 3-12 and part 4. You might need to reduce both their levels a bit since Red Fox of Fire was a little dubious about 20/15 for Z and 20/12 for Ed in 4-1/2. I'm not sure how notable the margin is, though. It's eventually like 2 mt and 1 def and 3 avo or something (Ed loses by a bit without Caladbolg equipped), but only if Zihark supported Jill. If he supported Earth (like Volug or even Nolan, since Ed and Zihark probably aren't coexisting in the same reality) then the def gap is wider but the avo gap shifts the other way by a lot.

Yeah, how the hell did Zihark get that many levels, especially when it's possible he could be doing worse than Eddie part 3?

Besides, didn't we also disband the thought that Zihark's EarthxEarth doesn't make the avoid lead HUGE, due to his far inferior luck. It's notable, but it's not HUGE.

Speaking of 4-1, a level 13 Zihark has 35 HP 15 Def. First thing I notice is people with 33 ATK, which is common and 2RKO him. Thing is, these maps have leadership, so it could add onto that. I couldn't imagine either of them facing relevent hit rates on this chapter with their best friends. So it comes down to offense. *compares strength*, yeah, Eddie wins.

This is ignoring the +Def he gives to his Nolan. With Tarvos, he really doesn't give a fuck about the enemy.

[Florete]

Spirit Dust.

Yeah, how the hell did Zihark get that many levels, especially when it's possible he could be doing worse than Eddie part 3?

Do tell. I personally recall proving the exact opposite.

[Sol Hiryu]

Oh god. Please don't tell me we're going to go through the stereotypical Eddie-hype. Please.

[Shadow Mir]

Oh my god. Please don't tell me that we're going to have to go through the Eddie hype again...

[grandjackal]

Bawww, we lost DB money, because they're so poor...

Do tell. I personally recall proving the exact opposite.

I can dig up the numbers, because you didn't. Or were you just going by "Zihark's better part 1, so he is always better all times forever" logic, like this list always devolves to? 3-6, Eddie Nolan would have similar avoid to the reasonable support of B Nolan Zihark would have at that time, because Eddie has the luck lead. Nolan loses 8 avoid, but in exchange he has +2 Def to compound with his new Tarvos to pull off one of those things called actual durability.

Zihark then As with an Earth support to have 17 avoid lead with supports, cut in by Eddie's superior luck and Caladbolg. Nolan still has his durability lead. Eddie is now starting to become noticeably better offensively due to Str.

[Narga_Rocks]

Oh god. Please don't tell me we're going to go through the stereotypical Eddie-hype. Please.

Personally I'm in favour of dropping Edward after 1-6 and dropping Zihark after 3-6, maybe after 3-12. Ed being slightly better than Zihark as of 3-12 doesn't change how both will lose to Mia quite handily in part 4.

Anyway, the only way Ed wins in 3-12 is if Z supports Jill instead of Volug, and even then it was a minor win. It starts growing in part 4 because Ed 3HKOs more than Z does, but it's still not impressive considering what all the GMs and royals are doing at this point. So it's not helping him move up. And the avo loss isn't insignificant if Z goes earth x earth, considering even with Caladbolg and more luck he still has one or two less speed at similar levels until Z caps speed and Z should always have a level lead, and earth x earth means Ed has to make up for 22 points. 8 from caladbolg, -2 or -4 from speed, +6 or so from natural luck lead, he's still down by 8 to 10. That is not insignificant. Even though Ed will probably have a 3 hp lead and 1 def lead if Z goes E x E, that's not going to make him equally likely to survive stuff as a unit with a 10 avo lead. Then in 4-3/4/5, Ed should pick up a silver forge otherwise he'll lose the damage lead, at which point Zihark gets his avo lead back since Ed lost 8 luck.

Oh, and while the LEA and Nailah and co. show up in late part 1, Zihark is still ORKOing with a brave sword. Ed's not.

And while Nolan benefits more from +def in 3-6, it doesn't change the fact that he needs Aran or Edward or Leo to do it. I see no reason that Zihark x Nolan is completely impossible. It may be undesirable, but so is no support for Nolan, and I'd rather Nolan x Zihark than Nolan x nothing. Besides, Zihark x Volug is part of the easy button. I don't see why it can't be part of the non-easy button, too, aside from Zihark losing his support if Volug doesn't go to 4-E and Z does. Of course, since Z will be lucky if he can 3HKO the weakest generals with a vague katti, I'd have to say neither has to go and thus neither really care in 4-E.