OMG it's a tier list

[tehnikhil]

Yeah... that Kurth vs Gareth thing was kinda a longshot XD. I forgot about him being a wall when I was sayign Gareth>Kurth. I can't see though where Night tide serves much of a use XP. My main arguement is Kurth vs Lethe. You can kinda forget about the Gareth thing XP

[Florete]

Kurth will be giving def and pissy attack for his 5 chapters, and no one really needs the def. Lethe on the other hand actually is mildly useful for her chapter 2 chapters. Yes, she sucks for part 3, but at least she has use for 2 chapters, unlike Kurth. I dunno actually when his def is useful. He may serve as a wall in 4e3, but you are trying to rush that kinda anyways, so using him as a wall doesn't work too well anyways.

Lethe's use in part 2 is tough to use effectively. She's decent for 2-2 but only helps so much, and her gauge problem means she's not very flexible in how you can use her because she'll have to either revert or eat grass, but eating grass is bad because it's limited and she's the worst user of it. Then in 2-E her offense is no longer even good. She's probably in the worse half of units in 2-E and provides very little in terms of chapter completion, if anything at all.

As for Kurth, +5 Def and Res is quite a huge durability boost and can be a counter to a PC's bad biorythm. And then 4-E-3 is obvious.

*facedesk* So you people are telling me the reason Eddie can't go above Calill is because he doesn't compare to Zihark?...

No, it's because he sucks, and using him in part 1 is more of a hindrance than a help after a certain point. Remember how I showed that most enemies 2HKO him even with a Dracoshield? Yeah, you can't even argue that I underleveled him because the Dracoshield would make up for that (It takes him ~3 levels to make up for a Dracoshield with his HP and Def growths).

Sure, he helps clear a few maps faster, but that only gives him so much credit. 1-P is a bit, 1-1 his performance is already kinda shitty, and it just gets worse. IIRC, there's a 1-3 enemy that actually has a decent chance to OHKO him.

1-1. Eddie could be doubling for this chapter if we gave him the favoritism beforehand.

Even with a level, this is a mere 60% chance. Sure, it's more likely to happen than not, but we don't call seeing 45% Hit from enemies (~40% true) very reliable avoid either.

I say if you improve faster, you deserve more.

That's somewhat flawed, especially in terms of this game. I could say Fiona improves fast because of her low level and good defensive growths, but that's not getting her any higher, is it? Aran could also see some fast improvements with his high Str, Skl, and Def growths.

And then I could also say that the units who are already good deserve more because they're already good and they help me beat the game faster. Really, it's better to point out what level he needs to be for certain things and determine how reasonable it is to be there at that point rather than saying he deserves kill favoritism.

Speaking of which, Eddie has 11 crit, enemy dodge is 6. He is pulling 5s. Basically anything he lands a crit on, he ORKOs. Not even Nolan can do that, because he just doesn't have the crit. No one but Eddie does, meaning Eddie is the only one who can possibly ORKO.

This is more likely to hurt him than help him. If one enemy attacks, hits, and he crits and kills, he can let another in for the kill. On player phase, 5 displayed crit is nowhere near reliable, and it would be a tie-breaker advantage at best.

Either way, he's probably getting the boss kill here. He could easily get 2 levels here.

Why is that? Nolan and Micaiah both could benefit from the experience boost, and it's likely easier to get one of them the kill anyway.

1-3, well depends on his level. Level 9 he doubles all but one soldier with a javy, myrms, and the boss.

Level 9? Rofl, no way. 5 levels in 3 maps when he's not even getting a whole lot of experience? Level 6 is more accurate, 7 might be arguable.

Also, that boss chip does 3 damage, plenty of leeway for Thani-bomb *glares*

I'd rather get rid of him with one unit than two, especially with all the other enemies around in this map.

Of course, I've always gone the left route on this map, so I have to deal with him at the same time as the Armors.

And most of your arguments deal with inflated levels. When will you realize you won't get away with that? Sure, when he's used he'll probably get that, but that's a result of being bad, not a reward, meaning there's still a heavy opportunity cost for taking all the boss kills and some extras to still be just average and then eventually dumped. Seriously, where did it all go? What was the point? I don't know about you, but after 1-1, I can get through the rest of part 1 pretty easily without touching Edward, which I know is where most of your "improves fast" argument is coming from.

Nevermind we have no reason not to crown Sigrun immediately.

We do actually. It's called "I could crown someone else."

Although I could see Sigrun going up a bit. At least above Makalov.

On another note, I forget: Is there any easy way to determine what stats a unit can cap for transfer in fixed PoR 100% of the time? I'd like to add them, but I don't want to assume shaky bonuses. Of course, it might be easier just to add them now and work things out from there.

[grandjackal]

No, it's because he sucks, and using him in part 1 is more of a hindrance than a help after a certain point. Remember how I showed that most enemies 2HKO him even with a Dracoshield? Yeah, you can't even argue that I underleveled him because the Dracoshield would make up for that (It takes him ~3 levels to make up for a Dracoshield with his HP and Def growths).

Sure, he helps clear a few maps faster, but that only gives him so much credit. 1-P is a bit, 1-1 his performance is already kinda shitty, and it just gets worse. IIRC, there's a 1-3 enemy that actually has a decent chance to OHKO him.

Eddie CAN perform well with a circumstance. Calill can only be meh at best during her forced chapters. Why are you giving Calill's more weight? CRK parts are of no more importance than DB parts. There is a way to get passed Eddie's meh start, Calill can't.

Even with a level, this is a mere 60% chance. Sure, it's more likely to happen than not, but we don't call seeing 45% Hit from enemies (~40% true) very reliable avoid either.

He gets 19 EXP a kill in 1-P. There is 7 kills in 1-P. That's 133 EXP, a level and a third. Not exactly sure how much the boss gives, but he can easily nab 2 levels. Miccy can chip about 6 of these 7 (two get up in Eddie's grill at one point), but she can make up for this with a sacrifice on Eddie. She can walk out of this with 70-80 exp. I fail to see what you're whining about.

That's somewhat flawed, especially in terms of this game. I could say Fiona improves fast because of her low level and good defensive growths, but that's not getting her any higher, is it? Aran could also see some fast improvements with his high Str, Skl, and Def growths.

Eddie has 3 chapters prior to Aran showing up, of which he's the second best unit on your team. You also seem to have me mistaken for growths, because that is Fiona's last problem, Eddie doesn't start with the retardedly bad bases she does. Basically he's got time+being one of 3-4 units for the earlygame of part 1.

And then I could also say that the units who are already good deserve more because they're already good and they help me beat the game faster. Really, it's better to point out what level he needs to be for certain things and determine how reasonable it is to be there at that point rather than saying he deserves kill favoritism.

I gave them to you. We can't efficiently have Nolan solo the maps upon arrival. This is basically admitting that Sothe's gonna solo from when he shows up, and again makes me wonder why this isn't just a 4 part list.

This is more likely to hurt him than help him. If one enemy attacks, hits, and he crits and kills, he can let another in for the kill. On player phase, 5 displayed crit is nowhere near reliable, and it would be a tie-breaker advantage at best.

It's better than nothing, try player phase more. Seriously, early part 1 has low enemy density. 1-1, the ONLY points you might accidentally open yourself is 1-1 where the two axers to the right are, but with proper positioning of Nolan, this shouldn't be an issue. Only time in 1-2 you get attacked by more than one guy is upper left (which you can easily reach to split a group to attack two people to compensate, and Sothe should arrive immediately after), and the lower right of which are pussy bronze soldiers, a proper Eddie easily should be able to handle, Leo lending a hand. 1-3 has so many choke points and terrain exploits that being targeted by more than one guy is inexcusable unless planned.

Yes, I am suggesting that early on, player phase might actually be more important than you think.

Why is that? Nolan and Micaiah both could benefit from the experience boost, and it's likely easier to get one of them the kill anyway.

Cause the boss, once provoked, moves! Michaiah better have a wall in front of her, or he just smites her. Eddie has far more accuracy than Nolan, who might miss, while Eddie due to his weapon choice has far better acc. Nolan can chip with his handy for 15, Leo an additional enough damage, Eddie can land the strike. Nolan could get it, or Miccy. Here's the problem. The boss dies, I can immediately have Miccy leave. I can't if she got the kill, cause she spent her turn. If Nolan got the kill, that means Miccy leaves and the next turn I gotta waste Eddie or Nolan's turn trading the steel sword. Letting Eddie have it saves us time two ways.

Level 9? Rofl, no way. 5 levels in 3 maps when he's not even getting a whole lot of experience? Level 6 is more accurate, 7 might be arguable.

Leo blows and Miccy has more than one way to get EXP than killing. Your assumption of 2 for 3 maps is even more ridiculous.

I'd rather get rid of him with one unit than two, especially with all the other enemies around in this map.

By that argument, I could just have Sothe kill him and Miccy can spend her time thani-bombing one of the armors. Really, who gives a shit about Discipline?

Of course, I've always gone the left route on this map, so I have to deal with him at the same time as the Armors.

Don't know why we wouldn't, I find it quicker. A lot of crap gets in your way on the right. Shrubbery in the doorway, having to cramp people through shrubs and trees just to reach the door, more enemies are bunched up there while you could have just bottlenecked them on the left side (sounds bad, but you don't have to kill all that come from the right side, just the archer blocking the escape, but some will get in your way. If you have people with good offense, it shouldn't be a problem). There is just a lower density on the left side.

And most of your arguments deal with inflated levels. When will you realize you won't get away with that? Sure, when he's used he'll probably get that, but that's a result of being bad, not a reward, meaning there's still a heavy opportunity cost for taking all the boss kills and some extras to still be just average and then eventually dumped. Seriously, where did it all go? What was the point? I don't know about you, but after 1-1, I can get through the rest of part 1 pretty easily without touching Edward, which I know is where most of your "improves fast" argument is coming from.

Why can't I? Your argument against it seems to be because he "sucks with my levels", which I find to be sandbagging. Eddie is far more capable of earning a cut than our chippers are.

What's with this "Where did it all go?" deal? It went to someone to help make part 1 go by faster, it's not like we don't have god units after he gets "dumped". Once he gets dumped, we simply play through the game efficiently, AKA quickly and cleanly. Who gives a shit where it went? We have plenty of ways to deal with future problems that don't require us to give kills to Leo and Miccy (who they both can still chip, Miccy can get thani kills and sacrifice healing, you make it sound like she has trouble getting exp). It's possible for Eddie to be better than Aran on arrival simply because you start with so few people, and two of them don't need kills to be helpful at that point in time. Leo outlives his welcome almost immediately so he gets dumped once we stop caring about the DB (which we don't have to), and Miccy has as I said, plenty of ways to get exp outside of killing, not that it changes much about her.

We do actually. It's called "I could crown someone else."

Although I could see Sigrun going up a bit. At least above Makalov.

Who begs for a crown at this moment outside of Tanith, who even after is not as fast as Sigrun? Tanith has 25 AS, which might not double things consistently at this point of part 3 still, while 26 is a far safer bet, which is what Sigrun has. So during this point, Sigrun is superior. Since I can just do that immediately while Tanith needs that+effort, I see no reason they should be that far apart. Tanith WOULD be good eventually, but by the time her growths start kicking in, it's endgame already (she's had 5 chapters prior, or 4 if my memory sucks. That is when she would have a speed lead of 27, and you need 28 to double endgame generals. so her "leads" are not effective enough).

Seriously, where did you get the idea a tier should seperate them, much less seperated at all? Earth Affinity? Only person likely to get it is probably Sigrun anyways.

[Narga_Rocks]

On another note, I forget: Is there any easy way to determine what stats a unit can cap for transfer in fixed PoR 100% of the time? I'd like to add them, but I don't want to assume shaky bonuses. Of course, it might be easier just to add them now and work things out from there.

I wouldn't say "easy".

Here is how I do it, though:

take the starting growth points, add on the growths x levels to go (say z). See if anything is close. If the character is within y points of capping, and y < .05z then it's very reasonable. So like, a character starts at 14/xx and has 22.7 in a stat and the cap is 23. That's simple enough. Just equip the right band for 6 levels. It gets complicated when a character is 1.3 away from two different stats and 20 levels away from max level and the right weapon + band could easily cap one of those stats, but to cap both you need to look at enemies and weapons and if you can get stuff at the same time and use killers often enough and whatnot. Then throw in the fact that weapons and enemies reduce other stats and you have to consider if the things that capped can remain capped while capping something else. It's painful. You've probably seen what I've done for Sothe and Jill and maybe a few others. And there is no simple way of determining if it's even possible for Jill to face warriors enough times to pull off str.

You could just stick to what they can do with bands, and what bands give stuff together. So for example if a character needs 10 levels of band usage for str and spd and only has 10 levels to go then they can get one or the other, but not both. Throwing in weapons makes it more complicated but still manageable. The enemies is where it gets nuts, and without considering enemies I don't think my Jill calculations showed that it was even possible to get str and spd at the same time.

Anyway, I say just put them in there, claim they can get certain things, try to do a good job of it (so like, if they are within .8 and have 24 levels to go then they should be able to pull it off, but 1.5 in 24 levels maybe not if they are also trying to get something else) and if someone complains about a certain stat on a given character, let someone else (probably me) do the math to prove whether or not they can get that combination of capped stats. Also, make a ruling on whether to include enemies adjustments or weapons adjustments, since it is your list.

Then when you put Ike on the list, say

Ike (hp, str, skl, spd, def transfer)

or something like that, up to you, but it should probably state what we are giving the unit. It shouldn't take up too much space.

Also, in the case of Jill, if you determine she can't get str and spd, then pick whichever one helps more (in your opinion) and just post that one.

Jill here(after Ike)

So yeah, she could pull it off without enemies, but they probably make it a lot easier. 26 levels with just:

slim lance, Knight Killer, Heavy Spear, Poleax, Hammer

equipped? I don't think so.

Also, the extra 5 levels must be with: Silver, Killer, or Brave, or of course any of the five above.

[Florete]

Eddie CAN perform well with a circumstance. Calill can only be meh at best during her forced chapters. Why are you giving Calill's more weight? CRK parts are of no more importance than DB parts. There is a way to get passed Eddie's meh start, Calill can't.

Calill is easier to use because she doesn't take counters.

He gets 19 EXP a kill in 1-P. There is 7 kills in 1-P. That's 133 EXP, a level and a third. Not exactly sure how much the boss gives, but he can easily nab 2 levels. Miccy can chip about 6 of these 7 (two get up in Eddie's grill at one point), but she can make up for this with a sacrifice on Eddie. She can walk out of this with 70-80 exp. I fail to see what you're whining about.

What the fuck? Should I even discuss this with you anymore? Every single fucking kill? Are you insane? At this point you're screwing over Micaiah, since even though you don't seem to believe it will change her, she actually does need levels to improve her Magic.

Eddie has 3 chapters prior to Aran showing up, of which he's the second best unit on your team.

That's not even true. Best on 1-P, I could argue Micaiah > him on 1-1, and Nolan and Sothe are definitely better on 1-2, as well as possibly Laura and Micaiah.

This is basically admitting that Sothe's gonna solo from when he shows up, and again makes me wonder why this isn't just a 4 part list.

It's not. You're hyping Edward because he is apparently so necessary to fast completion early on, which simply isn't true. When Sothe shows up, I can bench Edward and not notive a difference. This is not "Sothe solos," it's "Edward is redundant because of better character." Note the difference.

It's better than nothing, try player phase more.

On player phase, 5 displayed crit is nowhere near reliable, and it would be a tie-breaker advantage at best.

Seriously, early part 1 has low enemy density. 1-1, the ONLY points you might accidentally open yourself is 1-1 where the two axers to the right are, but with proper positioning of Nolan, this shouldn't be an issue. Only time in 1-2 you get attacked by more than one guy is upper left (which you can easily reach to split a group to attack two people to compensate, and Sothe should arrive immediately after), and the lower right of which are pussy bronze soldiers, a proper Eddie easily should be able to handle, Leo lending a hand. 1-3 has so many choke points and terrain exploits that being targeted by more than one guy is inexcusable unless planned.

How slow are you going if only one enemy can ever attack Edward? I thought you were hyping Edward because he makes things go faster, not slower.

Yes, I am suggesting that early on, player phase might actually be more important than you think.

And when did I ever say that was wrong? Plus, by this logic, Micaiah and Leo are easily > Edward, because their player phases likely beat his.

Cause the boss, once provoked, moves!

No shit, but his AI is weird. He doesn't just move when attacked, it's a strange combination of that + the current status of the Hand Axe gy next to him + the positioning of your own units. I've actually had it where he never moved once, even when "provoked."

Even so, this doesn't change much. It's easy to put Micaiah in that covered spot to the left of the boss so she can't be hit.

Here's the problem. The boss dies, I can immediately have Miccy leave. I can't if she got the kill, cause she spent her turn.

I would assume Micaiah chipped anyway if Edward got the kill, meaning she wouldn't be able to escape regardless.

If Nolan got the kill, that means Miccy leaves and the next turn I gotta waste Eddie or Nolan's turn trading the steel sword. Letting Eddie have it saves us time two ways.

That's not a big deal. Edward shouldn't be doing much on the first turn of the next chapter, or if Micaiah can't Escape immediately, there's your extra turn.

Leo blows and Miccy has more than one way to get EXP than killing. Your assumption of 2 for 3 maps is even more ridiculous.

2 probably is low, but 3 is reasonable. Most definitely not 5.

And once again, Leo and Micaiah will get kills. It's just going to happen in an efficiency run because you need all the ranged power you can get that early and you can't possibly have Edward kill everything.

By that argument, I could just have Sothe kill him and Miccy can spend her time thani-bombing one of the armors. Really, who gives a shit about Discipline?

Sothe can't ORKO him anyway. He'd need 28 atk, but with Kard and A Micaiah he only reaches 24. Hell, even Transfer Sothe would only hit 26 at best. If I can have Sothe steal and Micaiah kill, that's the fastest way to do things.

Why can't I? Your argument against it seems to be because he "sucks with my levels", which I find to be sandbagging. Eddie is far more capable of earning a cut than our chippers are.

You're giving him kill favoritism when he doesn't even become too good (and eventually dropped, wtf?) and ultimately ends up weakening Micaiah and anyone we used of Leo, Aran, Ilyana, and Nolan (Yep, they all get used on occasion). This is not Mid tier material.

Who begs for a crown at this moment outside of Tanith, who even after is not as fast as Sigrun?

Anyone who's nearing promotion? I thought this was pretty obvious.

Tanith has 25 AS, which might not double things consistently at this point of part 3 still, while 26 is a far safer bet, which is what Sigrun has. So during this point, Sigrun is superior. Since I can just do that immediately while Tanith needs that+effort, I see no reason they should be that far apart. Tanith WOULD be good eventually, but by the time her growths start kicking in, it's endgame already (she's had 5 chapters prior, or 4 if my memory sucks. That is when she would have a speed lead of 27, and you need 28 to double endgame generals. so her "leads" are not effective enough).

Don't forget that Tanith's Spd is tied for her third highest growth, so she can possibly get some with a level or two of BEXP. Sigrun's also not superior at all because she loses Str by 2 with mostly equal durability.

Also, I should mention that Tanith can actually get something out of Paragon because, unlike Sigrun, her growths don't completely suck. And when Tanith shows up there are 2-3 available for her to use, so I'd say she has a decent chance at one since our GM's are either promoted or nearing it, so they don't need one, and we probably aren't using more than one CRK, if any, to compete for it. Sure, you could give Paragon to Sigrun, but she'd get one level up for likely crappy boosts and then be headed for promotion. I generally prefer to use Paragon on lower leveled units so I can get their growths to kick in much faster, and being level 20 is going against that.

However, it has been mentioned before that Tanith might need to drop to Lower Mid, but I can't really see her < Stefan/Volke/Lucia, all 3 of whom she'll likely be even/superior to by the time they show up and be similar or better than for Endgame.

Seriously, where did you get the idea a tier should seperate them, much less seperated at all? Earth Affinity? Only person likely to get it is probably Sigrun anyways.

Sigrun and Tanith are not likely to ever be used in the same run. And Earth > Water.

Then when you put Ike on the list, say

Ike (hp, str, skl, spd, def transfer)

or something like that, up to you, but it should probably state what we are giving the unit. It shouldn't take up too much space.

That's how I've been preparing it in Notepad.

Also, in the case of Jill, if you determine she can't get str and spd, then pick whichever one helps more (in your opinion) and just post that one.

In her case, I think it would be viable to say she can get either one of two Energy Drops or one of three Speedwings, which should eliminate that issue.

Edited October 13, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Narga_Rocks]

Who begs for a crown at this moment

u serious?

outside of Tanith, who even after is not as fast as Sigrun? Tanith has 25 AS, which might not double things consistently at this point of part 3 still, while 26 is a far safer bet, which is what Sigrun has. So during this point, Sigrun is superior. Since I can just do that immediately while Tanith needs that+effort, I see no reason they should be that far apart. Tanith WOULD be good eventually, but by the time her growths start kicking in, it's endgame already (she's had 5 chapters prior, or 4 if my memory sucks. That is when she would have a speed lead of 27, and you need 28 to double endgame generals. so her "leads" are not effective enough).

Seriously, where did you get the idea a tier should seperate them, much less seperated at all? Earth Affinity? Only person likely to get it is probably Sigrun anyways.

Okay, lessee:

4 guys on the entire map of 3-11 are doubled by 26 but not 25 speed. Then one reinforcement. 3-E has 8.

Compare that to an actual speed growth and +2 str? Of course, 7 levels each just to tie, I suppose. Doesn't pull away until a little later. However, during this time a 2 point str lead and an extra .1 on the growth rate means the str difference is going to grow. Anyway, 23 str after promotion means 38 mt with a steel forge. Compared to 36. I guess she isn't actually KOing anything more anyway. However, 2RKO on generals rather than 3RKO. Assuming they support each other in 3-E (no real reason not to, a C is simple enough thanks to 3-11 and 3-12, but both are unlikely to get anything elsewhere) it means 39 mt vs. 37 mt. Wow, no wonder Marcia is better. They don't ORKO anyway and she'll at least be doubling in part 4. Whatever, they shouldn't be getting free crowns anyway.

Titania. Hey, it's possible she's only at level 19 or 20. Assuming a wing, as long as she has 25 speed it's cool to promote her.

Soren. Hey, all that bexp to pull off 23 AS and now a bunch of paladins and some sages have 20? What a waste. Oh, pretty crown. Hey, 25 speed, woohoo. And hey, dragonmasters and paladins in 3-E have 19 to 21 speed, too. Also, 22 AS generals in 4-1. Can't take that long to get 3 levels for 26 speed. Especially since he can use staves. Should be xx/2.5 or something by 3-P, with just 13 heal/mends. A few kills or attacks in 4-1, maybe one of the two 21 AS generals die from him. General slayer (needs rexcalibur, though, I think).

Mia. Hey, if she's level 19 she could probably just say screw it and promote without losing much, especially if bexp already capped str at 23, and a 26 str Mia with a 13 mt steel blade and an A support of any kind is pulling 41 mt, which happens to ORKO all but 2 paladins, and a forge fixes that. Also, ORKOs 4 out of 5 snipers, and the forge gets the last one. Steel Blade KOs the warrior. The reinforcement ones need a forge. Sniper reinforcement just won't die, though.

Oscar. By now some bexp should have healed a bit of his str woes. A level 19 Oscar could potentially promote without losing much, especially if he might level during the chapter to level 20 anyway, since that would prevent the slowplaying to get bexp to try to get an extra point of str. If he had just 23 str before promotion, 25 + 15 = 40 mt, ORKOing some paladins. A Boyd/Mist support makes 42, same as Mia with a forge.

Tanith/Sigrun. Their best support is each other, so with just 2 crowns they need both or one goes unpromoted. Since Sigrun happens to be closer to natural promotion...

Nephenee. Hey, she could be level 17 by now. Assuming some bexp she probably pulled 21 str by now, maybe 22. If she pulled 22, then promotion makes 25 and a steel forge gives her 40, which ORKOs a few paladins. With a +2 mt support, she's in the same boat as Mia with a forge. Even 21 str before promotion, a Brom support (or something with fire/water/dark) makes 41 mt, which was the same as Mia with a steel blade.

So since most of these units are probably ~level 18 or so right now, though some could be 19 or even 20, they are all candidates for the crown.

Or you could just hold it for some CRK or DB member that will be needing to promote in a little bit to go from level 18 to 18/1 instead of having to spend all of 4-3/4/5 to reach promotion and start out 4-E-1 at like 20/2.

Edited October 13, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

Transfer versions of units have been added. Begin the preliminary discussion.

EDIT: I might make some edits in the coming days without saying anything if I feel it's right.

Edited October 13, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[grandjackal]

Calill is easier to use because she doesn't take counters.

She also seems to have a problem that is 3RKOing things, on occasion even with a max might fire forge. Brom could have better offense, to give a little perspective. I'm pretty sure even considering, the only people she's outperforming are probably Lethe and an unlucky Neph. This leaves Elincia, Haar, Mordecai, a normal Neph, and Marcia's flight.

At least Eddie's capable of not being a pussy.

What the fuck? Should I even discuss this with you anymore? Every single fucking kill? Are you insane? At this point you're screwing over Micaiah, since even though you don't seem to believe it will change her, she actually does need levels to improve her Magic.

I'll keep repeating it until it burrows into that stubborn skull.

1 more point chip damage, or doubling someone else's offense? Hmmm...I think I see reason to help out the latter than the former.

That's not even true. Best on 1-P, I could argue Micaiah > him on 1-1, and Nolan and Sothe are definitely better on 1-2, as well as possibly Laura and Micaiah.

Nolan and Sothe are fine, Laura's importance is from healing. Miccy better in 1-P? She has 15 HP and 2 Def.

1x Pugo (boss, non-droppable Iron Axe and Vulnerary)

HP 27, Atk 19, AS 10, Hit104, Avo 28, DEF 8, RES 1, Crit 4, Ddg 8

DESTROYED! I could give her the fucking dracoshield and she'd STILL be roundhouse kicked in the teeth.

Chipping is nice. Sacrifice is nice. But at the end of the day, SOMEONE has to deal with the boss. Sure as hell ain't Leo or Miccy.

Let's also forget just how much quicker this goes with Eddie. Base Miccy has 10 Mt with Light.

2x Bandit lvl 3 (Bronze Axe)

HP 27, Atk 11, AS 6, Hit 96, Avo 13, DEF 4, RES 0, Crit 0, Ddg 1

3x Bandit lvl 4 (Bronze Axe, one carries droppable Herb)

HP 28, Atk 11, AS 7, Hit 99, Avo 16, DEF 5, RES 1, Crit 0, Ddg 2

2x Bandit lvl 5 (Bronze Axe)

HP 29, Atk 12, AS 8, Hit 101, Avo 20, DEF 6, RES 1, Crit 0, Ddg 2

3RKO on 5 of them. She hits on player, counters on enemy, needs to either suck down an herb or attack again. 2 turns to kill 1 guy. Thsoe last 2 embaressingly she 4RKOs. So she needs to attack, counter, then HAS to attack again, then hope she avoids the next shot to counter to kill them in 2 turns. She takes an herb, congratulations. You just took 3 turns to kill 1 guy. Fuck fighting the boss.

Eddie doubles all these fools and is packing 13 mt. can 2RKO the first two, so he can kill them in 1 turn. Already twice as fast. 19 from the kill, 9 from the hit. Twice over, that's 28x2 exp, 56. He takes 6-7 damage from them with his 5 Def, 19 HP means he's 3RKOd. He can afford to take a couple shots, Miccy can only take 2. Eddie has 32 avoid, reducing them to 64-69 hit. Not reliable, but it can certainly turn results. Miccy's 24? Not so much. 72-77. Eddie also packs 9-8 crit on them, x2 chances and it's about 12-14% chance of landing a crit. 7 enemies, 5 of which he'd ORKO with a crit, the first he could OHKO. 6% chance he's gonna crit kill something. He 2RKOs the next 3 as well. 10 exp for the hit, 20 for the kill. 90 exp, he now has he's gained a level, and now has 46 exp. There's 2 more dudes left and the boss. He might not even need the boss kill to manage 2 levels. So that's 5 enemies. First 2 come one by one. Miccy is not required for him to kill a bandit in 1 turn, it simply makes it convenient for her to get exp. Same goes for the next 3. So 1 turn to kill the first, turn two kills the second. None of which Miccy are required for this speed.

So don't kid yourself.

It's not. You're hyping Edward because he is apparently so necessary to fast completion early on, which simply isn't true. When Sothe shows up, I can bench Edward and not notive a difference. This is not "Sothe solos," it's "Edward is redundant because of better character." Note the difference.

There are better characters than Calill, and they include general whosits like Brom. Drop her to low if that's the logic you're gonna use.

Also no, it's clear that he is actually required for a fast completion of at least 1-P, and doesn't even need help for most of it. By the time he does, Leo probably has caught up, so again Miccy isn't necessary in that field either.

On player phase, 5 displayed crit is nowhere near reliable, and it would be a tie-breaker advantage at best.

If that's the case, don't bitch about how it might be a problem for him otherwise. t's a tight circle you're walking.

How slow are you going if only one enemy can ever attack Edward? I thought you were hyping Edward because he makes things go faster, not slower.

Where are you getting the idea that early part 1 is swamped with enemies? I'm getting the idea because there rarely IS more than one enemy that could attack him. I mean goddamn.

1-1

5x Fighter lvl 5 (Bronze Axe)

HP 25, Atk 17, AS 9, Hit 107, Avo 24, DEF 6, RES 1, Crit 0, Ddg 6

1x Fighter lvl 5 (Iron Axe, west)

HP 25, Atk 20, AS 9, Hit 102, Avo 24, DEF 6, RES 1, Crit 0, Ddg 6

1x Soldier lvl 5 (Iron Lance, west)

HP 22, Atk 17, AS 9, Hit 109, Avo 24, DEF 8, RES 3, Crit 4, Ddg 6

1x Soldier lvl 6 (Javelin, guarding door)

HP 23, Atk 17, AS 9, Hit 91, Avo 24, DEF 9, RES 4, Crit 5, Ddg 6

1x Archer lvl 5 (Bronze Bow)

HP 21, Atk 13, AS 10, Hit 108, Avo 26, DEF 6, RES 2, Crit 0, Ddg 6

1x Fighter lvl 6 (Hand Axe, Arrive square)

HP 26, Atk 21, AS 10, Hit 92, Avo 26, DEF 7, RES 1, Crit 4, Ddg 6

1x Isaiya lvl 7 (Myrmidon boss, droppable Steel Sword)

HP 25, Atk 16, AS 10, Hit 119, Avo 26, DEF 6, RES 3, Crit 12, Ddg 6

The iron lance soldier can basically be ignored as he shouldn't be bothered, the javelin soldier doesn't move, one of the fighters doesn't move from guarding hte path to the bosses, the bosses obviously don't move unless we piss off Isaiya, who apparently has mental problems. This basically leaves 4 other people, meaning 2 occasions this MIGHT happen. Nolan in fornt of the javelin guy, this leaves a fighter from the left to attack him and another from the right. One fighter is grouped above the fighter and to the javeliner's left, the 4rth axemen behind the guy to Nolan's right. Nolan's counter with a steel axe leaves them all with 8 HP. If Eddie got two levels, he could end that easily. Leo starts able to do that, and Miccy obviously can. 3 people dead on turn 2. Without Eddie getting Str, we reduced it from 3 to 2. This impedes us, and opens Nolan to another possible attack for he should be sucking down a vulnery. You say I'm killing Miccy's "potential", I say you harmed us just now. Next turn, Nolan chucks a hand axe at the axer blocking the path to the boss, Eddie goes in for the kill. Bam, I'm at the boss by turn 4. Nolan and Leo chips, Eddie kills Isaiyah, I could be out of here turn 5.

And when did I ever say that was wrong? Plus, by this logic, Micaiah and Leo are easily > Edward, because their player phases likely beat his.

None really HAVE better offense, as their job is basically just "Kill shit Nolan wounds". However, Eddie can kill what Nolan hits with a hand axe thanks to doubling, which allows us to kill something in a player phase rather than a whole turn without needing to tank. This means I have offense, AND I'm moving forward.

No shit, but his AI is weird. He doesn't just move when attacked, it's a strange combination of that + the current status of the Hand Axe gy next to him + the positioning of your own units. I've actually had it where he never moved once, even when "provoked."

Even so, this doesn't change much. It's easy to put Micaiah in that covered spot to the left of the boss so she can't be hit.

Or I could save a turn and kill the boss with a Nolan Leo Eddie team up and just have her escape right then and there...

I would assume Micaiah chipped anyway if Edward got the kill, meaning she wouldn't be able to escape regardless.

Leo: What the hell, bro?

That's not a big deal. Edward shouldn't be doing much on the first turn of the next chapter, or if Micaiah can't Escape immediately, there's your extra turn.

He could be taking on the two bronze soldiers to the right, but whatev. It's more for insurance, like "I can kill in one shot with steel when iron might not cut it despite the fact I'm doubling with iron". Either way, it saves me a turn from awkward positioning of Eddie, of which I could be putting him to do something useful.

If Michaiah didn't escape, you're wasting time.

2 probably is low, but 3 is reasonable. Most definitely not 5.

And once again, Leo and Micaiah will get kills. It's just going to happen in an efficiency run because you need all the ranged power you can get that early and you can't possibly have Edward kill everything.

The first chapter he needs not the boss kill to land 2 levels, and he's not even slowing us down in the process. Second chapter, it's more because he has more of a reason to get the boss kill. Third chapter, it's a fair level.

Sothe can't ORKO him anyway. He'd need 28 atk, but with Kard and A Micaiah he only reaches 24. Hell, even Transfer Sothe would only hit 26 at best. If I can have Sothe steal and Micaiah kill, that's the fastest way to do things.

Or, Sothe and someone else could kill the boss (28 Mt DOES kill him, unless you're thinking of shrub bonus, of which leaves him with 2 HP. This leaves basically anyone but Leo, but really...fuck Leo), and Michaiah could thani-bomb an armor.

Clearly what you suggested isn't the fastest way to do things.

You're giving him kill favoritism when he doesn't even become too good (and eventually dropped, wtf?) and ultimately ends up weakening Micaiah and anyone we used of Leo, Aran, Ilyana, and Nolan (Yep, they all get used on occasion). This is not Mid tier material.

It stops after 1-1, of which technically he might not even in 1-1 aside from the boss kill of which he has a perfectly good reason to kill. At worst I lagged Leo behind, and seriously who cares? He needs 4 levels to gain 1 Str, since god knows he's not gonna be doubling any time soon.

And no, he doesn't quite suck after this, he's just not god tier, which this list pretty much treats as if you aren't god then you might as well not even exist. He sucks because you had him completely held back for the sake a few measily situational problems that are easily solved.

Anyone who's nearing promotion? I thought this was pretty obvious.

People that require effort to raise? Ew.

Don't forget that Tanith's Spd is tied for her third highest growth, so she can possibly get some with a level or two of BEXP. Sigrun's also not superior at all because she loses Str by 2 with mostly equal durability.

So a crown and BEXP, that might be a tad risky since it's tied for Def and only 5% off HP? Sigrun needs less to do basically the same job. Advantage Sigrun.

Also, I should mention that Tanith can actually get something out of Paragon because, unlike Sigrun, her growths don't completely suck. And when Tanith shows up there are 2-3 available for her to use, so I'd say she has a decent chance at one since our GM's are either promoted or nearing it, so they don't need one, and we probably aren't using more than one CRK, if any, to compete for it. Sure, you could give Paragon to Sigrun, but she'd get one level up for likely crappy boosts and then be headed for promotion. I generally prefer to use Paragon on lower leveled units so I can get their growths to kick in much faster, and being level 20 is going against that.

So you are saying we give Tanith Paragon? I give Sigrun a crown, she is superior. I give both the crown and paragon, they have the same leveling speed. On average, Tanith needs 3 levels to gain 1 speed, which would tie Sigrun. after 5, both would tie. But if she's unpromoted, that's an entire time she is inferior. She only has 4 levels to grow unpromoted, so on average she is only getting 1 speed. So that's 3 levels of something clearly inferior+a crown, of which with the levels Sigrun could have gotten, Tanith would have only caught up at best.

However, it has been mentioned before that Tanith might need to drop to Lower Mid, but I can't really see her < Stefan/Volke/Lucia, all 3 of whom she'll likely be even/superior to by the time they show up and be similar or better than for Endgame.

Not quite sure what you're smoking. You basically have 4 chapters to get her to 28 AS just to double things in the first part, as 28 AS won't cut it on the faster enemies of 4-E-2, and certainly not for the spirits onwards. 7 levels in 4 chapters. You were calling me ridiculous earlier?

Let's also think that through. Volke has 43 Mt with Peshkatz, not even his strongest weapon. He starts with this, and basically has no competition for it. That's 2 chapters he's better. Dragons, yeah she's better, but now she's not doubling the spirits. You need about 32 if you want to double them with Nasir, she doesn't reach that until 20/15. I could just give Volke 3 BEXP levels and he won't need Nasir to do that. If you just decide to wait, he could get 2 levels for 1 speed, meaning only 2. His is far more fixable.

Don't even bring up the auras. You overrate Tanith so badly.

Sigrun and Tanith are not likely to ever be used in the same run. And Earth > Water.

Sigrun is forced 4 chapters, Tanith only 1, her joining chapter. That's more a problem for Tanith than Sigrun.

Concerning Transfers.

-I think Mak with a draco can max defense as well. He's basically N Keiran with a weaker weapon, but better everything else. He could be the seperater of Transfer and Normal Keiran.

-Uhhhh, Largo boosts for Calill? They improve her significantly. 5 HP basically gives her the best durability any mage has until basically promotion, +2 Skill and Speed certainly helps her case.

Edited October 13, 2009 by France

[Narga_Rocks]

I'll keep repeating it until it burrows into that stubborn skull.

That sentence isn't helping you.

That's not even true. Best on 1-P, I could argue Micaiah > him on 1-1, and Nolan and Sothe are definitely better on 1-2, as well as possibly Laura and Micaiah.

Miccy better in 1-P?

?????????????? What happened?

There are better characters than Calill, and they include general whosits like Brom. Drop her to low if that's the logic you're gonna use.

Well, there's a point in raising Calill, considering her 4-E. And she has to go through ~3 chapters of meh to get there? Compared to like 8 or more for Ed?

If that's the case, don't bitch about how it might be a problem for him otherwise. t's a tight circle you're walking.

I don't get why people keep saying crap like this. 5% proc isn't very helpful. It really isn't. You can't rely on it. As she said, it's like a tie breaker. If units are equal in every other way, then in situations where it doesn't put a unit at risk they are better.

When you are talking about chance to kill yourself? 5% is lots. Sure, 10% is higher than 5%, and bad as well. But if you have a unit that has a 0% chance of suiciding and another with a 5% chance of suiciding? It should be obvious. Having a guy proc to kill something 1 out of 20 times doesn't mean much since I wasn't expecting it. You just say, "oh look, he killed it, okay Micaiah, walk over there now and twiddle your thumbs instead of killing something because Ed decided to crit", whereas that 1 out of 20 times he suicides? RESET. Can't you see the disparity in the effect of that 5%? With a much more important effect, that 5% becomes a lot more significant.

And when did I ever say that was wrong? Plus, by this logic, Micaiah and Leo are easily > Edward, because their player phases likely beat his.

None really HAVE better offense, as their job is basically just "Kill shit Nolan wounds". However, Eddie can kill what Nolan hits with a hand axe thanks to doubling, which allows us to kill something in a player phase rather than a whole turn without needing to tank. This means I have offense, AND I'm moving forward.

Um, it also means Ed has to vulnerary at some point, or Micaiah has to sacrifice, then vulnerary just so she can do it again later. That's why you should look at their single attack in this case anyway.

Whereas when you have healers like in 1-2 and beyond, especially when physics show up, it's less significant. Also, enemy phase, since you take a hit anyway.

Sothe can't ORKO him anyway. He'd need 28 atk, but with Kard and A Micaiah he only reaches 24. Hell, even Transfer Sothe would only hit 26 at best. If I can have Sothe steal and Micaiah kill, that's the fastest way to do things.

Or, Sothe and someone else could kill the boss (28 Mt DOES kill him, unless you're thinking of shrub bonus, of which leaves him with 2 HP. This leaves basically anyone but Leo, but really...fuck Leo), and Michaiah could thani-bomb an armor.

Clearly what you suggested isn't the fastest way to do things.

Um, I think that you have a major reading mistake here. 28 mt is what's required, then she said that Sothe only gets 24. And can't KO. Think, 4 mt weapon, 18 str base, no time to get 2 levels, let alone the 3 or 4 he'd need to assure 20 str, and even with 20 str and the Micaiah support it's 26 and comes up short. And I like discipline. Anyway, having Micaiah OHKO is good. Especially on the east. And what's with more enemies on the east, like you said in another post? There's like 5 guys in the east and 10 in the west. And you have to go through the armors in the west. The east is so easy. Ask Int, or go digging in this topic. I go west since it's more interesting, not because it's easier. And even if you go west, you can kill the armours the turn before the boss shows up, or at least one of them. Being able to OHKO the boss is nice, since it frees up the other guys and lets me get Sothe.

And no, he doesn't quite suck after this, he's just not god tier, which this list pretty much treats as if you aren't god then you might as well not even exist.

Stop.

He sucks because you had him completely held back for the sake a few measily situational problems that are easily solved.

He sucks because if he's not doubling his damage isn't as good, and if he is doubling it required lots of levels and to utilize this new offence he now faces more counters than before and has even more durability problems, unless of course his offence is restricted to enemy phase counters and self healing on player phase (or getting healed and finding something injured enough to OHKO), but even then there are issues.

People that require effort to raise? Ew.

What?

Mia, Titania, Shinon, Oscar, Soren, Nephenee.

The GMs are in a completely different situation than the DB, by the way, since they don't have an easy way out that avoids training, and you need some trained units in part 4 to keep going fast, and so you might as well train them since the GMs go through exp rich maps with no super-units that can take all the exp and still clear maps efficiently.

And if they are already level 18? The crown is to avoid the effort to raise, which you seem to be reflecting out complaints about Edward onto the GMs. Oh, and when we are raising them, they aren't 2HKOd by everything (except a small number that 3HKO). And they generally can 2RKO everything, many of them even do it without doubling. Also, with units like Mia going first and dropping things to <9 hp it's again different from the DB, since in the beginning only Sothe is getting enemies to OHKO range for training Edward, whereas every other turn Mist can probably KO something that was damaged on enemy phase. Just because we say something about one unit in one part of the game doesn't mean it applies elsewhere. Circumstances aren't static.

So a crown and BEXP, that might be a tad risky since it's tied for Def and only 5% off HP? Sigrun needs less to do basically the same job. Advantage Sigrun.

Um, 2 levels of bexp likely gives Tanith 2 str, even without spd. With that, she has 40 mt crowned and can ORKO stuff. Seems like a plan. Maybe not a good one, since 2 levels is a fair amount of bexp, but it's a better option than spending a crown on Sigrun and getting 2 more damage than an uncrowned base Tanith against anything with <20 AS.

So you are saying we give Tanith Paragon? I give Sigrun a crown, she is superior. I give both the crown and paragon, they have the same leveling speed. On average, Tanith needs 3 levels to gain 1 speed, which would tie Sigrun. after 5, both would tie. But if she's unpromoted, that's an entire time she is inferior. She only has 4 levels to grow unpromoted, so on average she is only getting 1 speed. So that's 3 levels of something clearly inferior+a crown, of which with the levels Sigrun could have gotten, Tanith would have only caught up at best.

Not sure you are quite aware of the whole situation. 23 AS still doubles a reasonable amount of 3-11. Not as much as 24, but still... A chapter of paragon probably gets Tanith another 3 levels, then you can crown her in 3-E. She's a little worse than normal, though against <20 AS enemies only by 2 damage, then in 3-E she's probably got 40mt with Sigrun support or even 41 mt after crowning, and ORKOing stuff. Doing marginally better in 3-11 is inferior to doing much better in 3-E, and that's not even considering the future chapters where Tanith's superior speed growth will at least double something. For example, 26 AS in 4-P doubles a lot of the paladins. Good for both, except Tanith does more damage. Also, maybe Tanith OHKOs with horseslayer. Well, maybe not. Don't care enough to check, really.

Don't even bring up the auras. You overrate Tanith so badly.

Yeah, that's going to help. Though I agree Tanith won't likely be doubling the auras.

Sigrun and Tanith are not likely to ever be used in the same run. And Earth > Water.

Sigrun is forced 4 chapters, Tanith only 1, her joining chapter. That's more a problem for Tanith than Sigrun.

Still, neither is likely to go to 4-E, and even if they do they aren't likely going together and will have to rebuild a support. Or just start a different C in 4-P (they should support in 3-E every time Tanith is deployed). Also, there are so many slots in early part 4 that the only time a lack of forced deployment is a potential issue is 3-E.

Edited October 13, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

I'll keep repeating it until it burrows into that stubborn skull.

1 more point chip damage, or doubling someone else's offense? Hmmm...I think I see reason to help out the latter than the former.

You're overdoing it. Every single kill in a map is a ludicrous idea. Micaiah likes to level up, you know. And that one chip damage can be a very good thing if it means someone like Edward can kill without taking a counter.

That's not even true. Best on 1-P, I could argue Micaiah > him on 1-1, and Nolan and Sothe are definitely better on 1-2, as well as possibly Laura and Micaiah.

Miccy better in 1-P? She has 15 HP and 2 Def.

What the fuck? I never said that. Please read this:

That's not even true. Best on 1-P, I could argue Micaiah > him on 1-1...

Which was in response to you talking about Edward, so I figured it would be easy to deduce that "Best on 1-P" was talking about him as well.

And since the next huge paragraph was all about countering something I never said, my only response is "lol."

There are better characters than Calill, and they include general whosits like Brom. Drop her to low if that's the logic you're gonna use.

You completely missed the point again. I did not say "There are better characters so he won't be used," I said "There are better characters and enough of them so that he isn't as useful as you're making him out to be," since your entire argument is based on how "necessary" he is for speedy completion.

Also no, it's clear that he is actually required for a fast completion of at least 1-P, and doesn't even need help for most of it. By the time he does, Leo probably has caught up, so again Miccy isn't necessary in that field either.

Hooray for pointing out things I've acknowledged.

If that's the case, don't bitch about how it might be a problem for him otherwise. t's a tight circle you're walking.

You were the one hyping his crit like it was a serious advantage, I did not bring it up as a disadvantage. What I'm saying is basically "It's unlikely to happen and if it does it'll more likely hurt him than help him."

Where are you getting the idea that early part 1 is swamped with enemies? I'm getting the idea because there rarely IS more than one enemy that could attack him. I mean goddamn.

And again, where did I say that? Enemies don't need to be right next to each other to be able to reach the same spot. Since this is an efficiency run, I assume we're going at a decent pace, and that means we're more likely to encounter a fair number of enemies per turn.

Bam, I'm at the boss by turn 4. Nolan and Leo chips, Eddie kills Isaiyah, I could be out of here turn 5.

I think you need to play this map again, because that's way too fast, even when I give Edward a lot of kills. Problems include Nolan's accuracy (And occasionally Leo's and Edward's as well) and everyone needing to Vulnerary on occasion.

Or I could save a turn and kill the boss with a Nolan Leo Eddie team up and just have her escape right then and there...

That's not as easy. Micaiah is the only one with near-perfect Hit as far as I remember, and Nolan/Leo/Edward might have to do something else that turn, like deal with the Hand Axe guy. Plus, this in no way prevents Nolan or Leo from getting the kill, since it doesn't matter if Edward gets hurt if Micaiah is just going to Escape anyway.

Leo: What the hell, bro?

Micaiah: My attack does more damage.

If Michaiah didn't escape, you're wasting time.

More like she had something else to do on that turn.

(28 Mt DOES kill him, unless you're thinking of shrub bonus, of which leaves him with 2 HP. This leaves basically anyone but Leo, but really...fuck Leo),

Wait, what? Did I not just say that? Or are you having reading problems again?

Clearly what you suggested isn't the fastest way to do things.

Killing the boss with one unit instead of 2 while still getting the Discipline scroll is not fast enough for you?

It stops after 1-1, of which technically he might not even in 1-1 aside from the boss kill of which he has a perfectly good reason to kill. At worst I lagged Leo behind, and seriously who cares? He needs 4 levels to gain 1 Str, since god knows he's not gonna be doubling any time soon.

What about Micaiah? Why do you constantly leave her out? God dammit, we want to level her as well, probably moreso than Edward.

And no, he doesn't quite suck after this, he's just not god tier, which this list pretty much treats as if you aren't god then you might as well not even exist. He sucks because you had him completely held back for the sake a few measily situational problems that are easily solved.

He doesn't suck after you give him lots of kill favoritism, therefore he's good? Get real, this is a fundamental principle of tier lists. Have you even used Edward to see how easily you can give him these levels without slowing yourself down? I have, and it didn't work too well because his durability is cock.

Let's try this another way. Edward needs this favoritism to be better than shit, but in the end I don't even get something good. So go ahead, apply the favoritism, but know that he's acquiring more negative than positive. With reasonable levels he's crap, overleveled he's a bit better than crap. I'm not saying he's hard to use or anything, but it could definitely be easier.

People that require effort to raise? Ew.

People who are actually good while being raised.

So you are saying we give Tanith Paragon? I give Sigrun a crown, she is superior. I give both the crown and paragon, they have the same leveling speed. On average, Tanith needs 3 levels to gain 1 speed, which would tie Sigrun. after 5, both would tie. But if she's unpromoted, that's an entire time she is inferior. She only has 4 levels to grow unpromoted, so on average she is only getting 1 speed. So that's 3 levels of something clearly inferior+a crown, of which with the levels Sigrun could have gotten, Tanith would have only caught up at best.

Paragon =/= Crown. And Narga already showed how 16/1 Tanith is superior to 19/1 Sigrun. Even so, 19/1 Sigrun will only beat 16 Paragon Tanith for one map, and maybe even just part of it if Tanith levels fast enough to get some Spd.

And it's more like Tanith has a 64% chance to get Spd after two levels rather than requiring 3 levels. This is an even better chance than Edward doubling on 1-1, mind you. With three levels, 78.4% chance. On the other hand, Sigrun with 3 levels has ~58% chance to get Spd, not even as high as Tanith with two. In other words, crownless, Tanith probably only needs 2-3 levels to auto-tie Sigrun after the same amount.

Not quite sure what you're smoking. You basically have 4 chapters to get her to 28 AS just to double things in the first part, as 28 AS won't cut it on the faster enemies of 4-E-2, and certainly not for the spirits onwards. 7 levels in 4 chapters. You were calling me ridiculous earlier?

Someone forgot that part 4 enemies are experience rich. It's not unreasonable for units to gain 3-4 levels per map, even more on 4-5 depending on how long we take, and of course depending on team size and who exactly gets the kills.

Let's also think that through. Volke has 43 Mt with Peshkatz, not even his strongest weapon. He starts with this, and basically has no competition for it. That's 2 chapters he's better.

...What? Not a single comparison? Not even to Tanith herself?

You need about 32 if you want to double them with Nasir,

In what world? I swear to God, you need to do your research on this game more often. The fast Spirits have 30 AS and Nasir gives +5, so you need 29 to double with Nasir. Tanith isn't too likely to hit 34 by this point naturally without some kill favoritism and Paragon, though since it's perfectly fine for Edward I guess I can do it for Tanith as well. She can start BEXPing at ~20/12 for more Spd, but only needs 20/7 to double w/Nasir, which is low.

I could just give Volke 3 BEXP levels and he won't need Nasir to do that.

And now your arguments aren't even matching up. Earlier you said they needed 32 with Nasir, which would suggest 37 is the mark, but 3 Spd for Volke gets him to 38.

Don't even bring up the auras. You overrate Tanith so badly.

I might be overrating her, but I wouldn't say I'm doing it "so badly" at all.

Sigrun and Tanith are not likely to ever be used in the same run. And Earth > Water.

Sigrun is forced 4 chapters, Tanith only 1, her joining chapter. That's more a problem for Tanith than Sigrun.

? Sorry, I missed how your response had anything to do with what you were responding to.

In any case, it's not a big deal. 3-E and all part 4 maps have plenty of deployment slots avalaible, and not being forced to Micaiah's route is an advantage for Tanith.

[nflchamp]

I'm going to put this out here now in hopes of stopping the entire Eddie thing, or at least make it more civil. Easy buttoning Part 3 DB chapters is the ONLY time this strategy could even possibly be worth a positive amount in the end. What he gets over his "regular" usage isn't anywhere near enough to jump Calill/Soren. I don't know if that even does anything but solidify his position at the top of Lower Mid.

If anyone still wants to pursue Eddie up, then start with getting him into Mid. Once there you can make arguments about Eddie v. Calill/Soren, but you at least have to be convincing enough that Eddie deserves Mid.

[Interceptor]

Haven't been able to post much lately, but I wanted to say this quickly: my view of the Easy Button strategy

(aka curbstomping Part 1 without training the tier 1 units seriously) is that you can view it via the same opportunity cost that we use for skills and stat-ups.

In other words, the cost of training the DB units is represented by losing the turn advantage that you'd gain from kicking them aside. It does not mean that you can't train the tier 1 DB units. Rather, it means that training them might not really improve their tier position, because the benefit that they gain from being higher levelled is offset by the cost in turn count that it took you to get there.

I think that Eddie's basic problem is that training him never pays off, even if he becomes decent to good with it. Hence his tier position.

[Interceptor]

Apologies for doubling, but I have a SPD growth of 75%, I can't help it.

Regarding the transfers, what's the final decision on how they are being compared? I think it's safe to assume that no vanilla unit placements are considered with transfer characters included, because that would basically break the list utterly and force us to re-do everything. The part that I am hazy on is how the transfer characters are being compared. For example, is transfer Nephenee assumed to be compared in a playthrough where other transfers exist, or is she a goddess amongst mere mortals? This is a really important point, since she's God tier if she's alone but probably only High if she's alongside transfer Ike/Mia/Haar/Titania and crew.

I know that there was some discussion on that, but this is the sort of detail that needs to be resolved unequivocally beforehand. Like, before anyone even opens their mouths.

[grandjackal]

You're overdoing it. Every single kill in a map is a ludicrous idea. Micaiah likes to level up, you know. And that one chip damage can be a very good thing if it means someone like Edward can kill without taking a counter.

I don't give a shit if she does. Why is Miccy so exempt when she's in the same boat? Everyone would like to level part 1, but we deny them. Why is Miccy exempt from the rule? Being forced doesn't stop the fact that people show up to basically out-cheat her.

What the fuck? I never said that. Please read this:

That's not even true. Best on 1-P, I could argue Micaiah > him on 1-1...

Which was in response to you talking about Edward, so I figured it would be easy to deduce that "Best on 1-P" was talking about him as well.

And since the next huge paragraph was all about countering something I never said, my only response is "lol."

*facedesk* Oh god, please tell me I'm not getting dyslexia...*embaressed*

Whatever, I adressed it earlier.

You completely missed the point again. I did not say "There are better characters so he won't be used," I said "There are better characters and enough of them so that he isn't as useful as you're making him out to be," since your entire argument is based on how "necessary" he is for speedy completion.

Again, the same could be said of Calill. Difference is Eddie actually can be made to be more useful during his forced parts, Calill has no way possible.

Hooray for pointing out things I've acknowledged.

Verily.

You were the one hyping his crit like it was a serious advantage, I did not bring it up as a disadvantage. What I'm saying is basically "It's unlikely to happen and if it does it'll more likely hurt him than help him."

Do you see why confusion is easy on this list?

And again, where did I say that? Enemies don't need to be right next to each other to be able to reach the same spot. Since this is an efficiency run, I assume we're going at a decent pace, and that means we're more likely to encounter a fair number of enemies per turn.

The bolded.

My response: This is impossible because they DON'T EXIST. Such a situation never happens early part 1. There are very few situations. There are 3 situations where that will happen in the time Eddie is forced.

1. 1-P when the two bandits gang up on you at the opening. Miccy CAN'T take two bandits, but we've been over this.

2. 1-1, where Nolan is basically in the only position to be attacked by more than one person due to everyone's starting position, turn 1, basically all 3 units that can target Nolan will. No one really CAN attempt to target more people on enemy phase because Nolan's the only one in position.

3. 1-2, to the right are two bronze soldiers. Eddie can take them fine, granted you're not sandbagging him.

4. 1-3 with Aran's force. Sothe kills one of them, Laura recruits Aran. That leaves one guy.

I think you need to play this map again, because that's way too fast, even when I give Edward a lot of kills. Problems include Nolan's accuracy (And occasionally Leo's and Edward's as well) and everyone needing to Vulnerary on occasion.

If you miss with anything with anyone, chances are you're gonna have to restart the map. At worst, I had Nolan take one vulnery, and had Miccy Sacrifice once.

That's not as easy. Micaiah is the only one with near-perfect Hit as far as I remember, and Nolan/Leo/Edward might have to do something else that turn, like deal with the Hand Axe guy. Plus, this in no way prevents Nolan or Leo from getting the kill, since it doesn't matter if Edward gets hurt if Micaiah is just going to Escape anyway.

The less I have to trade around and gimp my progress next chapter, the better.

Why would you want to deal with the hand axe guy when you can just kill Isaiyah and have Miccy escape? You don't HAVE to.

Micaiah: My attack does more damage.

Nolan does 15 damage with a handy to Isaiyah, leaving him with 10 HP, he has 3 Res. Miccy even with 2 levels does 8 damage, which is...exactly what Leo would do with his 14 mt to the boss's 6 def, at base.

So no, chances are she does less.

More like she had something else to do on that turn.

Something unecessary, you mean.

Wait, what? Did I not just say that? Or are you having reading problems again?

Ok, 24 mtleaves the boss with 7 HP. Either way, Sothe used his turn, Miccy kills. I lost no sleep.

Killing the boss with one unit instead of 2 while still getting the Discipline scroll is not fast enough for you?

Wasting my time on a useless skill is fast now when I could kill 2 people on 1 player phase rather than just one is fast now?

What about Micaiah? Why do you constantly leave her out? God dammit, we want to level her as well, probably moreso than Edward.

Why? She speeds up nothing even with training.

He doesn't suck after you give him lots of kill favoritism, therefore he's good? Get real, this is a fundamental principle of tier lists. Have you even used Edward to see how easily you can give him these levels without slowing yourself down? I have, and it didn't work too well because his durability is cock.

I don't recall Aran having any possibility of taking on 3 cats. Someone like Aran never gets "good durability" till basically after 1-6, which point we might as well just forget about the DB.

And yes, I have. If anything I went faster, because now one of my units isn't shitty on purpose.

Let's try this another way. Edward needs this favoritism to be better than shit, but in the end I don't even get something good. So go ahead, apply the favoritism, but know that he's acquiring more negative than positive. With reasonable levels he's crap, overleveled he's a bit better than crap. I'm not saying he's hard to use or anything, but it could definitely be easier.

What happened to this ideal where favoritism is fine if you put it to better use than anyone else? I believe Titania is where she is with a crown and a wing. Why is it suddenly bad for Eddie? Eddie can improve quite quickly, whereas Miccy improves little, as does Leo. Why are we being commie now when it's perfectly fine everywhere else? This doesn't stop the fact that he can easily earn it without slowing us down, and I've shown you that.

...What? Not a single comparison? Not even to Tanith herself?

Tanith isn't doubling with 27 speed, the end. Not until the dragons, which is why I stopped at 2.

In what world? I swear to God, you need to do your research on this game more often. The fast Spirits have 30 AS and Nasir gives +5, so you need 29 to double with Nasir. Tanith isn't too likely to hit 34 by this point naturally without some kill favoritism and Paragon, though since it's perfectly fine for Edward I guess I can do it for Tanith as well. She can start BEXPing at ~20/12 for more Spd, but only needs 20/7 to double w/Nasir, which is low.

Hey, you agree with me! Either raise Eddie or lower Tanith. Since you consider Calill mid tier materiel...

And now your arguments aren't even matching up. Earlier you said they needed 32 with Nasir, which would suggest 37 is the mark, but 3 Spd for Volke gets him to 38.

Which case, now looking into it, Volke doesn't even need Nasir to double spirits at base.

I might be overrating her, but I wouldn't say I'm doing it "so badly" at all.

Soren's in mid, forgive me if I'm a tad cynical.

? Sorry, I missed how your response had anything to do with what you were responding to.

You said we were likely not to use both in one playthrough, Sigrun's the one who's forced more often. We therefore have a problem involving unit slots.

In any case, it's not a big deal. 3-E and all part 4 maps have plenty of deployment slots avalaible, and not being forced to Micaiah's route is an advantage for Tanith.

Neither are being used in endgame most likely, not taking a unit slot on maps where flying is greatly appreciated is better than you think.

I concede Tanith Sigrun though due to earlier shown statistics, but due to Sigrun being forced more often than naught and being closer to promotion without needing a crown, they should certainly be closer.

@Nflchamp-This sort of is the comparison with Calill vs Eddie. I'm trying to show that Eddie can speed up a couple maps while Calill just flat out can't in her forced parts. Eddie's 1-P alone should put her above Calill, since Calill isn't necessary for a fast completion of 2-E or 3-9, nor can she make them go any faster. I'm not trying to raise him to upper mid here, which I have no clue why everyone automatically assumes I am.

@Interceptor-My point is not that Eddie is improving to be one of these magic DB units, but rather he is one of those people that helps us curbstomp part 1 prior to Zihark showing up and taking that job right out of his hands. I'm not going the "He's good if trained for the whole game" route, but rather "Given this resource, he helps us get through faster till eventually he's dropped, like every DB unit anyways". Basically Eddie is one of those people that helps us not care about the DB if we choose not to train them seriously. He's not Nolan good obviously, but having 2 decent combat units rather than just one sounds to make things go quite a bit smoother, don't ya think? All Calill has in response to this is hitting some people with meteors in 2-E and 3-9, which is more just masturbatory since it doesn't actually speed up 2-E, and I'd say is less useful in 3-9 than Eddie is in 1-P. After 3-9 there is plenty of team better than Calill, after 1-P Eddie's capable of being decent until 1-6.

Concerning Transfer Nephenee-Considering considering she shows up not needing any training to be Mia with spears at a much sooner time, I see plenty of reason to agree with Interceptor on this.

Edited October 13, 2009 by France

[Interceptor]

@Interceptor-My point is not that Eddie is improving to be one of these magic DB units, but rather he is one of those people that helps us curbstomp part 1 prior to Zihark showing up and taking that job right out of his hands. I'm not going the "He's good if trained for the whole game" route, but rather "Given this resource, he helps us get through faster till eventually he's dropped, like every DB unit anyways". Basically Eddie is one of those people that helps us not care about the DB if we choose not to train them seriously. He's not Nolan good obviously, but having 2 decent combat units rather than just one sounds to make things go quite a bit smoother, don't ya think? All Calill has in response to this is hitting some people with meteors in 2-E and 3-9, which is more just masturbatory since it doesn't actually speed up 2-E, and I'd say is less useful in 3-9 than Eddie is in 1-P. After 3-9 there is plenty of team better than Calill, after 1-P Eddie's capable of being decent until 1-6.

I think it's been adequately shown here that Eddie's contribution is not as good as you seem to think it is, nor is Callil's as bad. Just from the perspective of utility, I can at least have Callil making potshots that almost matter. Just because Callil is worse than a lot of units doesn't mean that she ceases to contribute to game completion outside of her forced chapters.

Concerning Transfer Nephenee-Considering considering she shows up not needing any training to be Mia with spears at a much sooner time, I see plenty of reason to agree with Interceptor on this.

Uhh, I wasn't actually making an argument for someone to agree with. I was just asking what the criteria was and giving an example to show why it was important to get it out of the way.

[Shadow Mir]

All Calill has in response to this is hitting some people with meteors in 2-E and 3-9, which is more just masturbatory since it doesn't actually speed up 2-E

Elincia: I'd like to not have to rely on Stun to defeat Ludveck, thank you very much. At any rate, France/Kuja/whoever, my respect for you as a debater is falling faster than someone's Life Points after a direct attack.

Edited October 13, 2009 by Richter Renard

[grandjackal]

I think it's been adequately shown here that Eddie's contribution is not as good as you seem to think it is, nor is Callil's as bad. Just from the perspective of utility, I can at least have Callil making potshots that almost matter. Just because Callil is worse than a lot of units doesn't mean that she ceases to contribute to game completion outside of her forced chapters.

I'd think being necessary for the fast completion of a chapter (1-P) is more important than random unecessary potshots. It's not really utility she has as much as it's just something she can do.

Uhh, I wasn't actually making an argument for someone to agree with. I was just asking what the criteria was and giving an example to show why it was important to get it out of the way.

Oh, criteria. My bad.

@Richard-Haar-I'm here.

Wait a minute, lemme double check that. She has 122 hit with Meteor, and he has 58 avoid. 64 hit. I would not call that reliable. 26 Mt to his 16 Res. 10 damage, he has 35 HP. Elincia has 34 mt to his 26 Def. 8x4=32.

Still needs a Stun.

Edited October 13, 2009 by France

[Interceptor]

I'd think being necessary for the fast completion of a chapter (1-P) is more important than random unecessary potshots. It's not really utility she has as much as it's just something she can do.

Callil hitting something means that it's easier for someone else to kill, and hitting indirectly means that I don't have to heal her afterwards. She's not really injuring your deployment slots in the non-Endgame Part 4 chapters, and her Part 3 chapters are not so contrained that deploying her is likely to slow you down due to taking a slot from someone better (really, try to find 12 people that beat the pants off of her, that's what 3-11 basically is).

The only way to spin Eddie's 1-P as sufficiently better than Callil is, in my opinion, to get into Siege arguments. I can't buy into ignoring the impact of chapters with forced deployment (under the idea that you can't pick your units anyway, so why bother?), but nor can I accept some uncapped utility bonus to a unit that just so happens to be invaluable.

I mean, are there any serious strategies that do not involve using Eddie for faceblocking in 1-P?

Edited October 13, 2009 by Interceptor

[Shadow Mir]

@Richard-Haar-I'm here.

Wait a minute, lemme double check that. She has 122 hit with Meteor, and he has 58 avoid. 64 hit. I would not call that reliable.

Elincia: I'm more accurate.

And considering that Haar has 121 hit with the hammer, he has only 63 hit on Ludveck - not exactly what I'd call reliable.

[Interceptor]

Wait a minute, lemme double check that. She has 122 hit with Meteor, and he has 58 avoid. 64 hit. I would not call that reliable. 26 Mt to his 16 Res. 10 damage, he has 35 HP. Elincia has 34 mt to his 26 Def. 8x4=32.

Still needs a Stun.

Unless she levels up and procs STR, with her 65% STR growth (holy crap, Elincia's growths are disgusting). Now she's quadding 9's, which is sufficient to guarantee a kill if Callil manages to hit with Meteor (and it's not like Callil only has one shot, kids, she's got a few tries before it matters).

Also, please stop fucking up the numbers. Elincia has 3 authority stars, which means that Callil's HIT is 137 to Ludveck's 58 avoid. That's 79 listed.

[grandjackal]

I'd think being necessary for the fast completion of a chapter (1-P) is more important than random unecessary potshots. It's not really utility she has as much as it's just something she can do.

Callil hitting something means that it's easier for someone else to kill, and hitting indirectly means that I don't have to heal her afterwards. She's not really injuring your deployment slots in the non-Endgame Part 4 chapters, and her Part 3 chapters are not so contrained that deploying her is likely to slow you down due to taking a slot from someone better (really, try to find 12 people that beat the pants off of her, that's what 3-11 basically is).

The only way to spin Eddie's 1-P as sufficiently better than Callil is, in my opinion, to get into Siege arguments. I can't buy into ignoring the impact of chapters with forced deployment (under the idea that you can't pick your units anyway, so why bother?), but nor can I accept some uncapped utility bonus to a unit that just so happens to be invaluable.

I mean, are there any serious strategies that do not involve using Eddie for faceblocking in 1-P?

No, and thus my point.

As for Calill's meteoring, for 2-E it isn't exactly having a major impact, considering the bigger point is to just have Haar and Elincia gangrape general what's his face. 3-9, you can't really complete the chapter faster unless you're Geoffery, so everything she does is theoretically unecessary. 3-11 she returns. If we used a couple meteors in the mean time, she'd probably have 3 attacks. I'll give her 3 levels and a support for 2 more damage. 28 Mt. She has to be selective with what she hits, because some things she doesn't even do 1/4 of enemy HP even then. Never mind this would only be 3 enemies of which this would actually matter. Eddie in 1-P can kill 5 units by himself without wasting a turn. However, we don't need Calill throwing meteors to get through 3-11 quickly, we do for Eddie in 1-P.

Elincia: I'm more accurate.

And considering that Haar has 121 hit with the hammer, he has only 63 hit on Ludveck - not exactly what I'd call reliable.

Calil does 10 damage to him with Meteor, Elincia does 8x4 damage, that's 32. Add that together, that's 42 damage. Ludveck has 45 HP. Calill did nothing, I'd still need a Stun. Even if I gave her a spirit dust, I'd be off by 1 HP.

@Interceptor-How does a tier 3 unit proc a level this quick when most of the enemy is practically tier 1?

Edited October 13, 2009 by France

[Shadow Mir]

Calil does 10 damage to him with Meteor, Elincia does 8x4 damage, that's 32. Add that together, that's 42 damage. Ludveck has 45 HP. Calill did nothing, I'd still need a Stun. Even if I gave her a spirit dust, I'd be off by 1 HP.

If Elincia nets Str on a level up, that 10 damage is all I need to guarantee the kill. And again, it's not as though Calill only has one shot.

@Interceptor-How does a tier 3 unit proc a level this quick when most of the enemy is practically tier 1?

Physic.

Edited October 13, 2009 by Richter Renard

[Interceptor]

No, and thus my point.

Your point is nonsense. Eddie is the only tank, granted, but we can't tier him according to how the chapter would proceed without him, because the game essentially becomes impossible to win. That logic would result in several really bad units becoming Epic Tier. We specifically avoid doing that.

@Interceptor-How does a tier 3 unit proc a level this quick when most of the enemy is practically tier 1?

Staves.

[grandjackal]

If Elincia nets Str on a level up, that 10 damage is all I need to guarantee the kill. And again, it's not as though Calill only has one shot.

If she doesn't, your point is moot. Which case we're taking 2 turns to do what we could be doing in 1.

Speaking of proccing, how is it fair we can judge Calill on others doing it, when Eddie can't? He has HP, Str, Skill and Speed above 50%. Does he even need 2 levels? One could proc, which means I don't even need to give him that much favoritism, just use him normally.

Physic.

Why are you taking so long to manage this?

@Interceptor-Then why is BK above Tauroneo by an entire tier? Not giving him credit for something he is doing is just stupid really.

Edited October 13, 2009 by France

[Interceptor]

Speaking of proccing, how is it fair we can judge Calill on others doing it, when Eddie can't? He has HP, Str, Skill and Speed above 50%. Does he even need 2 levels? One could proc, which means I don't even need to give him that much favoritism, just use him normally.

Elincia is getting CEXP in 2-P from using Mend on Marcia, and that plus Recover/Physic and Vigor in 2-E means she's actually looking at the possibility of being level 3 by the time she goes for Ludveck's jugular (88% chance of proccing at least +1 STR).

Eddie's chance of proccing is obviously worth considering, but most of things things only happen half the time, which means that's how often you actually get to benefit from the boost. Elincia is far more reliable in that regard.

@Interceptor-Then why is BK above Tauroneo by an entire tier? Not giving him credit for something he is doing is just stupid really.

I am not answering this question again.