OMG it's a tier list

[Dat Nick]

Disclaimer: I don't have any idea how the hell FE10 goes. Stop me if anything sounds stupid.

I hate to throw fire on the old Mia shit, but... I know due to skill she's the best canadate for Adept, but is she so much better than anybody else that she gets sole dibs on it? I don't believe this is the case. The argument for Titania's offense sucking without a speedwing is fair and all I guess, but if we're saying Mia's doritos for adept, shouldn't that same thing apply to Titania? Who else wants the wing? Mia obviously has plenty of AS, Ike's good as well, Soren and Boyd will go from not doubling to not doubling, Gatrie will ram his cap pretty quickly and if he's getting the crown he has no excuse, and Oscar's problem with his offense is str, not spd. And if Titania gets the wing, does she one round? If the answer is no, then she also wants Adept. Ike would also appreciate being able to ORKO, and so would Gatrie, even.

Of course, if Titania/Ike/Gatrie all DO ORKO then the argument kinda falls flat on it's face.

[Narga_Rocks]

Disclaimer: I don't have any idea how the hell FE10 goes. Stop me if anything sounds stupid.

I hate to throw fire on the old Mia shit, but... I know due to skill she's the best canadate for Adept, but is she so much better than anybody else that she gets sole dibs on it? I don't believe this is the case. The argument for Titania's offense sucking without a speedwing is fair and all I guess, but if we're saying Mia's doritos for adept, shouldn't that same thing apply to Titania? Who else wants the wing? Mia obviously has plenty of AS, Ike's good as well, Soren and Boyd will go from not doubling to not doubling, Gatrie will ram his cap pretty quickly and if he's getting the crown he has no excuse, and Oscar's problem with his offense is str, not spd. And if Titania gets the wing, does she one round? If the answer is no, then she also wants Adept. Ike would also appreciate being able to ORKO, and so would Gatrie, even.

Of course, if Titania/Ike/Gatrie all DO ORKO then the argument kinda falls flat on it's face.

They pretty much ORKO anything they double, except generals (barring hammers). Generals alone aren't worth adept compared to Paladins + Warriors + Halbs + Snipers + (Mia still gets extra chances to crit on generals) + (I'm not sure if she 3HKOs instead of 2HKOs on anything else, but since she gets Vantage for free and actually has space for all of Vantage + Cancel + Adept it even helps on enemy phase against stuff she 2HKOs).

Anyway, I'm perfectly happy with giving Titania a wing provided Ilyana carries it over to the GMs. The 2-3 one is a competition between Haar and Titania, and neither has mega claim to the thing. In order for Titania to get a wing with similar economic profit (edit: that is, similar economic profit to what Mia gets out of Ike and Adept) we need to carry over the 1-E wing. Which I'm happy with, so I've always assumed she gets the wing.

A simple test is to consider Titania's wingless offence. Does she really deserve to be up there with crowned Gatrie and Mia w/ Ike? The answer should clearly be no, and hence her current position must either be wrong or exist under the assumption we are giving her a wing. Since none of us have tried to push her any lower than under Gatrie (not me, but others) that suggests we are probably assuming she gets a wing.

Edited November 6, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Candlejack]

Stefan is only "bad" because the royals are there.

Same case with Volke and possibly Skirmir.

[Defeatist Elitist]

Alright there is one huge problem with this tier list that I see, and that is Ilyana's placement. Instead of being in Lower Mid, she should be just above Reyson. This is a very fair placement for her, and I will explain why momentarily.

First of all, when she joins she is superior to pretty much all your other units. Seriously. She has more MT than any of your other units except Nolan and Sothe, but she targets Res. Sure that is slightly counteracted by lolLow MT of Thunder tomes, but hey. She'll also have one of the higher Speed scores of any of your characters at the time, giving her one of the best offenses. Then consider she has alright durability and always attacks from 1~2 range, which means she pretty much can never die. Factor in the possibility of her getting transfer bonuses, and she steamrolls here.

Now, considering she has one of the highest levels of any of your units, she is probably one of, if not the first to get promoted. There's only really Nolan and Jill that will compete with her promotion speed. Once promoted, she gets better on pretty much all fronts. Really, her only weakness is her poor caps. As you can see, she courts them practically the whole game.

Also consider that she is necessary for funneling items over to the Greil Mercenaries! Without her, you've got no transfered items. Sure you might say that this doesn't require her to be used, but all that means is that she is a significant boon to the team even when she isn't trained at all. Imagine how good she would be trained. If we extrapolate from this, she is easily the best unit in the game.

Let's compare her to Reyson towards the end of the game. He can't even attack! She does way more damage than he does, and she's more durable! She can even heal with staves! There is no way that Reyson could be superior to her, except in mobility. Reyson relies on other people being good to get his Strength, Ilyana MAKES other people good by ferrying items to Greil mercenaries, AND she is an incredible unit by herself.

Again, this is a respectable tier list, but Ilyana is clearly undervalued. Just kidding.

[tehnikhil]

Just wondering, for Mia transfers, what do her transfers assist her in? I mean, like Titania's speed fixes her doubling problems in lots of cases without a speedwing. Does Mia's transfers just make her even better than she already is? Or is it mainly that str transfer that helps her double enemies in double digits sooner?

Oh, and also, what determines if a character moves from the top of a tier to the bottom of the next one? I just noticed this with Mist, and I am kinda wondering what the point even is?

Another thing: Why does transfer Griffca>Cain? I mean, doesn't it help that Cain has formshift, so he can attack on his first turn? Most endgame chapters are pretty short too, so his formshifting seems like it helps a lot.

Edited November 7, 2009 by tehnikhil

[_____]

Another thing: Why does transfer Griffca>Cain? I mean, doesn't it help that Cain has formshift, so he can attack on his first turn? Most endgame chapters are pretty short too, so his formshifting seems like it helps a lot.

IIRC, transfer Giffca can double auras. Cain can't.

[Blackbird]

Since it's been brought up, (even if jokingly) I'd appreciate a refresher on Ilyana's tier location.

It seems like she'd be better, when she has the best availability of any Sage (even better than Soren, if I recall), and she's available early, when Sages suck less. At least in the more difficult DB chapters Sages (Ilyana particularly) contribute useful damage when the Dawn Brigade is sucking. Her tome of choice also kills Dragons.

I'm guessing the big reason she's so low is that Sages are just bad in general in this game (particularly Speed cap)?

Not really too interested in debating it, just curious more than anything.

[charmander6000]

Ilyana's problem is that she switches sides. She's pretty good in 1-3 (She doubles some units IIRC) and 1-4, but she eventually loses out to most units on the team. Once part 3 comes she'll be 20/1 at best and is pretty much the worst unit on the team until Kyza/Lyre (and maybe Lethe if she doesn't double) show up. Unless you slow the team down she won't get as much experience and by part 4 she'll be too underleveled that you might as well crown her so she can healbot.

[Florete]

Just wondering, for Mia transfers, what do her transfers assist her in? I mean, like Titania's speed fixes her doubling problems in lots of cases without a speedwing. Does Mia's transfers just make her even better than she already is? Or is it mainly that str transfer that helps her double enemies in double digits sooner?

Well, +2 Str when you double everything is going to make anyone better. I originally had Titania (T) > Mia (T), but Mia (T) was argued up. I don't remember the specific arguments used.

Oh, and also, what determines if a character moves from the top of a tier to the bottom of the next one? I just noticed this with Mist, and I am kinda wondering what the point even is?

Mist (T)'s position hasn't been discussed at all yet. I kind of just threw her there since I felt the Spd boost to stop getting doubled much sooner was more fitting of Upper Mid than Mid.

Another thing: Why does transfer Griffca>Cain? I mean, doesn't it help that Cain has formshift, so he can attack on his first turn? Most endgame chapters are pretty short too, so his formshifting seems like it helps a lot.

Giffca (T)'s extra Str is the difference between 2RKOing and ORKOing Generals on Def tiles, and since Giffca and Caineghis are relatively equal otherwise (If anything, Giffca would be better. I can link you to the reason why if you need it), this gives him the overall win.

[Blackbird]

Ilyana's problem is that she switches sides.

Continuing that thought:

I'm guessing it's a pretty safe bet that she's got gaining 14 levels in 7 chapters to be equivalent to Soren when she rejoins.

Once she rejoins with Ike and co., she is worse/underleveled compared to the other units, so is rarely fielded, if at all. She doesn't gain much/any exp and remains underleveled, and is eventually overlooked for endgame.

Basically, she's in the same boat as the rest of the Dawn Brigade: she doesn't compare favorably to the GM's, who are already higher leveled. Underleveled/low tier units become more underleveled by comparison, while high tier units accumulate more exp and move further ahead; the disparity increases.

Is that all about right? It makes a little more sense to me now.

Edited November 7, 2009 by Blackbird

[tehnikhil]

Nah, you don't need to link me to the reason.

Another think: How come Tanith (T)>Griffca/Cain? I mean, Tanith comes for 4 chapters before cain/Griffca. At that time, she will probably do a pretty mediocre job due to low base stats, and her support probably won't get to an A until endgameish. Maybe she will do a little better for part 4 once she is promoted, but then endgame comes, and she isn't necessarily an amazing unit for endgame. Cain/Griffca on the other hand are crushing everything in sight for their first 2 chapters, still performing better than just about everyone for 4-E-3 (Ike may do better here due to 2 range), and then, although he isn't going to do well aganist Lehran's spirits, they can still smash lehran himself into the next century. 4-E-5, they are going to be dominating those auras of Ashera.

Oh, and also, why is it that Oliver>Snacky? I know most people are like "staff use FTW" and all, and that was why Pelleas>Snacky for awhile, but since Oliver's only action will be in endgame, where you already have a forced staffer there anyways, doesn't that devalue him greatly? Is he even that good of a fighter? Snacky is, for one, forced for all her chapters, so she isn't taking anyone else's spot when fighting, and she works well as team with Siggy softening while she kills during 4-P/3. In 4-E, she may be majorly devaluded, but she still does just as much chip damage as Oliver will do.

It really seems that the main arguement for Oliver and snacky is this: 2 chapters of mediocrity vs. backup staff user.

Next, Zihark vs Naliah. Just wondering, what exactly makes Naliah>Zihark? I mean, using her in part 1 greatly gimps the team since they lose exp. Zihark will at least stick with the DB. He also is incredibly useful with an A support with Nolan/Volug for chokepointing in the 3 part 3 chapters. I mean, I am doubtful that I will really argue further if someone can point out why Naliah>Zihark XP.

Edited November 7, 2009 by tehnikhil

[Florete]

Nah, you don't need to link me to the reason.

Another think: How come Tanith (T)>Griffca/Cain? I mean, Tanith comes for 4 chapters before cain/Griffca. At that time, she will probably do a pretty mediocre job due to low base stats, and her support probably won't get to an A until endgameish. Maybe she will do a little better for part 4 once she is promoted, but then endgame comes, and she isn't necessarily an amazing unit for endgame. Cain/Griffca on the other hand are crushing everything in sight for their first 2 chapters, still performing better than just about everyone for 4-E-3 (Ike may do better here due to 2 range), and then, although he isn't going to do well aganist Lehran's spirits, they can still smash lehran himself into the next century. 4-E-5, they are going to be dominating those auras of Ashera.

Well, Tanith (T)'s new 25 base Spd helps her double a lot more than before (3-11 itself has plenty of 20-21 AS enemies IIRC), which helps her level up faster than usual, and her high Skl combined with a Skl% mastery and good Str gives her good shots at ORKOing as long as she can double. Her affinity, once built, will help with most of her durability problems and also help someone else (I usually support her with Marcia or Calill). I don't know if this actually makes her > the Lions, but she's much better in her extra 4 chapters than she used to be, and she's not bad for Endgame either. She has Wyrmslayers to help with the Dragons, flight and Canto (this can help quite a lot in early part 4 as well), and she should be able to double most enemies, though she might need Paragon for a map or two.

Oh, and also, why is it that Oliver>Snacky? I know most people are like "staff use FTW" and all, and that was why Pelleas>Snacky for awhile, but since Oliver's only action will be in endgame, where you already have a forced staffer there anyways, doesn't that devalue him greatly? Is he even that good of a fighter? Snacky is, for one, forced for all her chapters, so she isn't taking anyone else's spot when fighting, and she works well as team with Siggy softening while she kills during 4-P/3. In 4-E, she may be majorly devaluded, but she still does just as much chip damage as Oliver will do.

It really seems that the main arguement for Oliver and snacky is this: 2 chapters of mediocrity vs. backup staff user.

I can agree with that. And Sanaki will be doing much more damage than Oliver because Light sucks and she has more Mag as well.

Next, Zihark vs Naliah. Just wondering, what exactly makes Naliah>Zihark? I mean, using her in part 1 greatly gimps the team since they lose exp. Zihark will at least stick with the DB. He also is incredibly useful with an A support with Nolan/Volug for chokepointing in the 3 part 3 chapters. I mean, I am doubtful that I will really argue further if someone can point out why Naliah>Zihark XP.

Narga argued this one. Though I shouldn't leave without pointing out that Nailah taking experience really can't be counted against her since she's like the best unit for those two chapters and is practically essential for their speedy completion.

[Zkirsche]

Anyone think Oscar can get a possible def transfer? In fixed mode, his average means that he only needs +200 points in def. Giving him 6 uses of the KW so he'll max out speed, he can grab a +def and +str band and never let go. This means he'll only need +50 points in def to cap it, or 10 swings of a silver lance, with the rest being averaged out.

I suppose this doesn't do much aside from increasing his concrete durability, however.

[tehnikhil]

Well, Tanith (T)'s new 25 base Spd helps her double a lot more than before (3-11 itself has plenty of 20-21 AS enemies IIRC), which helps her level up faster than usual, and her high Skl combined with a Skl% mastery and good Str gives her good shots at ORKOing as long as she can double. Her affinity, once built, will help with most of her durability problems and also help someone else (I usually support her with Marcia or Calill). I don't know if this actually makes her > the Lions, but she's much better in her extra 4 chapters than she used to be, and she's not bad for Endgame either. She has Wyrmslayers to help with the Dragons, flight and Canto (this can help quite a lot in early part 4 as well), and she should be able to double most enemies, though she might need Paragon for a map or two.

Well, those things in bold are mainly what I will respond to I guess XP.

1. I am kinda lazy with checking enemy stats, but does that make her ORKO in 3-11?

2. Her affinity, even if it is somehow built at an incredible speed, won't get to A until endgame. 30ish avo is great and all (assumign whoever she supports with may have a little), but in this game, where many of your guys already have insane amounts of avoid, it may not matter much by part 4 (Nolark works well since taht is where everyone is 2nd tier and everyone has a lot less avo to work with to begin with). Also, I have at least heard before that avo majorly becomes devalued by endgame, especially for 4e4 and 4e5. So, her support may help a tiny bit, but she really isn't around long enough for it to make a significant difference.

3. Even if Wyrmslayers help with dragons, IIRC (I brought a good Tanith to endgame once), with their high hp counts, even the white dragons may not be one rounded. Lions can ORKO whites IIRC and cause great pain to the reds.

4. And this is one of the biggest arguments for this case--Cain doesn't consume resources. A lot of guys in part 4 are fighting over the 3 paragons (Tanith, CRK's, DB's, Pelleas, etc). A lot of those guys also turn out better than her, and although I really don't understand how exactly I should talk about resources, a lot of guys make much better use of paragon than her. Namely the DB. Nolark, Jill, and Aran would love those paragons and would also turn out better than her thanks to growths. Also, Cain needs no exp in endgame--the time where no one at all other than Mickey needs any exp. He isn't hurting anyone in the longterm or anything (Naliah maybe) by taking lots of the kills/soloing 4e1/2. Tanith needs to take exp and level up and all to fight well, and unlike all of thsoe above Cain even though they are weaker, she really isn't particularly useful or doing anything others can do. You have like 7 fliers for 4-3, tibarn for 4-5, and then mounts are gimped on Ike's route since they can't go too far thanks to FOW and mounts are hurt on 4-4 since they now have 7 mov. So pretty much, Tanith is taking up resources to be a unit weaker than one that doesn't need them.

Oliver vs Snacky next...

It really seems that the main arguement for Oliver and snacky is this: 2 chapters of mediocrity vs. backup staff user.

Cool beans, you pretty much agree with me XP. I am thinking that Oliver should move down more than Snacky up though. Also, let me further talk about my arguments and make a few more...

1. That snacky/Siggy combo works for both of her chapters, and it really helps that neither are gimped by the sand.

2. In endgame, she will probably be picking off others' trash or making trash for others to pick off, but she may not be able to do this too much. As you said, she does this better than Oliver due to higher mag and better tomes.

3. One really can't consider Oliver's staff utility "unique" in any real sense. Often times, an extra staff user is brought into endgame anyways (usually Elincia, but there are 7 others+elincia, at least 6 of them which are perfect feasible), so it isn't like his staff using is irreplaceable. And, of course, we have mickey who won't spend her time fightign and instead be doign Oliver's job, but with more staff action and actual potential to be good. So... yeah, that is why I say Oliver down.

Edited November 7, 2009 by tehnikhil

[Florete]

1. I am kinda lazy with checking enemy stats, but does that make her ORKO in 3-11?

No, she's 2 rounding. However, consider the fact that not everyone is ORKOing these guys anyway.

Ike is because he's h4x like that.

Haar needs to be winged or promoted (or both if promoted early).

Titania needs to be winged or promoted.

Mia is relying on crit/Adept.

Gatrie is ORKOing, but his awful mobility hurts what he can get to in this map.

Janaff is borderline (40 atk, some require 41-42).

Ulki needs Adept.

Shinon needs to be at or near promotion and using the Silencer, or needs a +atk support and can spare a couple levels. Also, only one per phase for him (These guys 4 round Tanith on average, so she can take some hits).

That should cover Top/High tier, and then everyone lower is failing to ORKO unless Jill was brought in, overleveled, and given a strong forge.

2. Her affinity, even if it is somehow built at an incredible speed, won't get to A until endgame. 30ish avo is great and all (assumign whoever she supports with may have a little), but in this game, where many of your guys already have insane amounts of avoid, it may not matter much by part 4 (Nolark works well since taht is where everyone is 2nd tier and everyone has a lot less avo to work with to begin with).

For the ones I suggested, Marcia and Calill, it will matter. +23/30 avoid goes will with both of their high avoid growths.

Also, I have at least heard before that avo majorly becomes devalued by endgame, especially for 4e4 and 4e5. So, her support may help a tiny bit, but she really isn't around long enough for it to make a significant difference.

But it does help, and not just at A, B and C can help also. The Lions don't even have that much.

3. Even if Wyrmslayers help with dragons, IIRC (I brought a good Tanith to endgame once), with their high hp counts, even the white dragons may not be one rounded. Lions can ORKO whites IIRC and cause great pain to the reds.

You don't remember correctly. With a Wyrmslayer, Tanith can ORKO all White Dragons as soon as 20/3 (59 atk to their 72 HP/23 Def, 36x2=72), 20/1 with a +atk support. However, she caps Str fast, and her 65 atk with a Wyrmslayer is actually better than Giffca's 64 and only slightly worse than Caineghis' 66. Even they don't stand a chance at ORKOing Reds naturally, which someone needs 76 atk (impossible) or a skill activation to pull off.

4. And this is one of the biggest arguments for this case--Cain doesn't consume resources. A lot of guys in part 4 are fighting over the 3 paragons (Tanith, CRK's, DB's, Pelleas, etc). A lot of those guys also turn out better than her, and although I really don't understand how exactly I should talk about resources, a lot of guys make much better use of paragon than her. Namely the DB. Nolark, Jill, and Aran would love those paragons and would also turn out better than her thanks to growths.

This is not as big of a deal as you make it out to be. First, in Tanith's joining map, 3-11, there are 3 Paragons to go around (2 if you left one with the DB), and most of your team probably won't use them as well as Tanith because they won't increase in ability as fast because they are at or near promotion and won't get as much experience. Even if you don't think she should get it here, there's also 3-E, so you can essentially give Paragon to 6 units while Tanith is around before part 4 already.

Oh, for part 4, you also need to justify using most of the DB. Aran has lived out his usefulness for sure (lolterrible Spd), Zihark is beaten by most Sword users like Mia and Stefan, and I'm pretty sure even Nolan has Str issues.

Also, Cain needs no exp in endgame--the time where no one at all other than Mickey needs any exp. He isn't hurting anyone in the longterm or anything (Naliah maybe) by taking lots of the kills/soloing 4e1/2.

This doesn't make any sense at all. First you say he isn't hurting anyone because he requires no experience, then you say he can solo two maps? Needing no experience does not mean you are entitled to kills, or whatever it is you're trying to say here.

Tanith needs to take exp and level up and all to fight well, and unlike all of thsoe above Cain even though they are weaker, she really isn't particularly useful or doing anything others can do. You have like 7 fliers for 4-3, tibarn for 4-5, and then mounts are gimped on Ike's route since they can't go too far thanks to FOW and mounts are hurt on 4-4 since they now have 7 mov. So pretty much, Tanith is taking up resources to be a unit weaker than one that doesn't need them.

Well, you can't send fliers to both Micaiah's and Tibarn's route, and both want some (Micaiah for 4-3, Tibarn for both. Tibarn's cool and all, but he's only one unit). Even Ike's isn't that bad since it's only -2 move (fliers can still go over gaps). Who are the seven fliers for 4-3? Naesala, Janaff, Ulki, Haar, maybe Jill or Marcia....not to mention two of those need to stay transformed. I guess you could mention Nealuchi and Sigrun, but they aren't fighting. In the end, flying is still a great ability to have in all of Tanith's maps except maybe 3-E where it doesn't amount to very much. Plugging holes and hopping walls in 3-11, flying over terrian and stuff in part 4, most notably swamp and desert.

Also, Giffca/Caineghis don't have much time to win over Tanith anyway. They win 4-E-1 because they can ORKO non-Def tile Generals without relying on mastery. 4-E-2 is quick and painless, so that's more like a tie. 4-E-3 was already done, 4-E-4 and 5 she can ORKO Spirits just like them, they can do more to Auras (though if Giffca is doubling and not on Def tile Auras, either Caineghis or Tanith can finish it off, and Caineghis doesn't double without Nasir). So all they really end up winning is 4-E-1 and 4-E-5, and 4-E-5 won't be a huge win anyway.

1. That snacky/Siggy combo works for both of her chapters, and it really helps that neither are gimped by the sand.

I prefer Sothe/Sanaki, but I suppose that works as well.

[Candlejack]

Wy are we talking about supporting Sanaki anyway? Pretty sure she is shit anyway.

And the last thing Sothe needs is more ACC.

And lolWind.

[Colonel M]

Before I go too far with a comparison, would anyone really disagree with Sanaki > Astrid. With the exception of smash perhaps?

[-Cynthia-]

Before I go too far with a comparison, would anyone really disagree with Sanaki > Astrid. With the exception of smash perhaps?

I doubt it, Sanaki is already above Astrid.

[Colonel M]

Bastian (N/T - Str)

Kurthnaga

Lethe (N/T)

Renning

Gareth

Lehran

Oliver

Kyza

Astrid (T - Str, Skl, Spd)

Sanaki

Pelleas

Atm she's under. And I think Sanaki has a case to go over Lehran too, but baby steps.

EDIT: Though Sanaki is > Astrid in the other tier list.

Edited November 8, 2009 by Colonel M

[tehnikhil]

Eh... I am little too lazy to research arguments for Tanith since I haven't used her much and you addressed all of my thoughts, so I guess I can live with that place staying in place. BTW, what I meant was that Cain and Griffca don't need any exp, yet they can still crush all of the levels other than 4e3. I mean, it is kinda hard for me to explain it, but the whole "Cain/Griffca are invincible beasts other than when surrounded by dragons, while Tanith isn't ever that godly" is what gave me this thought in the first place. I guess she does have positive utility all the way though, especially on 3-11. Oh, and BTW, bringing that 3rd paragon from the DB is like recruiting Jill/Zihark from them; it shouldn't happen.

Also, siggy can do fighting just fine--slap a crown on her and hope for stun activations for her part 4 chapters. This is a short term thing, and she will kinda suck for endgame, but that doesn't mean she horribly fails at 3rd tier with the whole stun hax. When I said Snacky/Siggy combo, I meant siggy weakens and Snacky finishes enemies off. I haven't done HM for a long time, but in NM, she tends to leave enemies at like 5-15 hp when she casts Cymbeline on them, and she really can only help. On the desert chapter, she and siggy can beat up an enemy, and since it is desert, they can still stay out of others' enemies range. Of course, they won't be alone since your godly units can go with them and maybe cover Snacky during enemy phase while Siggy cantos away (Jill/Haar maybe). A support may work out since it is fast building and those two would go together with my thoughts of using her. Snacky isn't going out and beating things up alone or attacking on enemy phase, but she still can pull her weight with Sigrun's help on her chapters (plus, what else is Sigrun going to be doing?).

There doesnt' seem to be much disagreement to this, but I am wondering this: how will we change it so Snacky>Oliver? Will Oliver move down like I am guessing he will?

Oh and while I at it, could someone explain the arguments that would bring Kyza/Astrid over her? Laguz don't seem all that great since on optimal run PT's, you aren't letting laguz fight untransformed, and he gets like 1 exp transformed. He isn't killing much either and most everyone (maybe Lethe/Lyre/Mist are doing worse, but Mist is sure to change) is doing better than him at this time anyways. I have never really used Astrid, so I can't talk about her.

Edited November 8, 2009 by tehnikhil

[NinjaMonkey]

Another thing: Why does transfer Griffca>Cain? I mean, doesn't it help that Cain has formshift, so he can attack on his first turn? Most endgame chapters are pretty short too, so his formshifting seems like it helps a lot.

IIRC, transfer Giffca can double auras. Cain can't.

Except we are assuming that Giffca is only transfering Strength (which he has a 100% chance of doing so). Which has nothing to do with his AS at all.

And in case you are wondering, Cain and Giffca(non-transfer) are ranked as being equal in the list (ATM).

Edited November 8, 2009 by NinjaMonkey

[Florete]

Bastian (N/T - Str)

Kurthnaga

Lethe (N/T)

Renning

Gareth

Lehran

Oliver

Kyza

Astrid (T - Str, Skl, Spd)

Sanaki

Pelleas

Atm she's under. And I think Sanaki has a case to go over Lehran too, but baby steps.

EDIT: Though Sanaki is > Astrid in the other tier list.

That's because it's Astrid (T), not Astrid (aka Transfer Astrid and not Normal Astrid). Astrid (T)'s position is another one of those "Just tossed her somewhere" positions, so it's likely that she'll move. Just remember to add 2 Str, Skl, and Spd to her bases.

Oh, and BTW, bringing that 3rd paragon from the DB is like recruiting Jill/Zihark from them; it shouldn't happen.

And why not? You won't always use DB members past 3-13, in which case there's no need for them to keep Paragon. Or it's possible you only plan on continuing with one or two of them, so you funnel kills into those and they don't necessarily need Paragon. If I send it to the GM's, I get 9 uses out of it. If I keep it with the DB, I get 4, but in more experience rich maps (2 of them at least). I don't really consider either path superior, but if I were to choose, I'd probably go with the GM's.

Sending Jill and Zihark isn't a bad idea either if they support each other. They'll end up better in the long run.

Also, siggy can do fighting just fine--slap a crown on her and hope for stun activations for her part 4 chapters.

I'd prefer to use my Crowns on people I actually plan on having fight a lot, not a filler unit.

This is a short term thing, and she will kinda suck for endgame, but that doesn't mean she horribly fails at 3rd tier with the whole stun hax. When I said Snacky/Siggy combo, I meant siggy weakens and Snacky finishes enemies off. I haven't done HM for a long time, but in NM, she tends to leave enemies at like 5-15 hp when she casts Cymbeline on them, and she really can only help. On the desert chapter, she and siggy can beat up an enemy, and since it is desert, they can still stay out of others' enemies range. Of course, they won't be alone since your godly units can go with them and maybe cover Snacky during enemy phase while Siggy cantos away (Jill/Haar maybe). A support may work out since it is fast building and those two would go together with my thoughts of using her. Snacky isn't going out and beating things up alone or attacking on enemy phase, but she still can pull her weight with Sigrun's help on her chapters (plus, what else is Sigrun going to be doing?).

I never said they couldn't, I just said I prefer doing it with Sothe because he likely does more damage than Sigrun.

There doesnt' seem to be much disagreement to this, but I am wondering this: how will we change it so Snacky>Oliver? Will Oliver move down like I am guessing he will?

Oliver/Sanaki vs Kyza is an availability, positive/negative utility argument, and I really haven't looked into Kyza's performance to know how bad he is. I think it would be best to put both on one side of him for now and decide later if he's better or worse than them.

Oh and while I at it, could someone explain the arguments that would bring Kyza/Astrid over her? Laguz don't seem all that great since on optimal run PT's, you aren't letting laguz fight untransformed, and he gets like 1 exp transformed. He isn't killing much either and most everyone (maybe Lethe/Lyre/Mist are doing worse, but Mist is sure to change) is doing better than him at this time anyways. I have never really used Astrid, so I can't talk about her.

He won't get 1 experience. He levels like a 20/16 unit at base (Titania's base level), so he won't get much but still something.

[tehnikhil]

Hm... maybe I am remembering wrongly then... I swore on my laguz PT that even lyre was getting fail exp, but oh well. I mean, Kyza is awesome when trained since he is a tiger who doubles, but he is a pain to train in many ways thanks to being a laguz. Most laguz seem to be as high as they are mostly because of their base stats. There are some exceptions (royals, Volug, hawks), but the laguz are dependant of BEXp to become stronger thanks to their low exp/kill. Plus, it isn't a good thing that a lot of them in particular (Kyza, Lyre, lethe) have less attack than Beorc--the guys who don't have a 40% downtime XP. Lets not forget the no 2 range. IMO, Kyza may be in the top 5-7 for worst situation for training (I woudl say Lyre, Meg, Fiona, Astrid, and than it is kinda close between Lethe/Kyza). If used as chokepoint tanks, get ready for lots of Olivi grass smoking, so pretty much many funds advantages they have are taken away (not like funds matter in this game). To be honest, Snacky may be the most underappreciated character on this tier list.

Also, do the HM enemies have bonuses similar to HHM? If so, than we can expect Astrid to perform on this mode just as she does in NM--badly until trained. Maybe not as bad, but she is still pretty weak and this isn't SD where bow chip damage is anything wonderful. Many of the CRK's are either not doubling or killing the enemy--there aren't many borderlines that Astrid can assist in.

My thoughts are to move Snacky over Oliver and leave the other 3's positions unchanged among each other for now. Although, some may propose moving Astrid over Kyza, because 2.5 of her chapters (dunno if to include 2-e) have the whole "take everyone you can" setup where you can deploy every possible character, so she is doing tiny, tiny chip damage but not taking anyone else's spot by doin so. Kyza will be. But, if that kinda argumetn doesn't hold enough weight, taht is fine with me.

Just to reitierate:

Pro Sanaki:

1. Snacky/siggy combo to help kill enemies. You can use one of the crowns found before 4-3 and promote siggy then, because by then, all of your endgame canidates shoudl already be promoted, so there is no point in not using it on her. You can let them support, or have her and Sothe support.

2. Although this may be part of point 1, Snacky does hax chip damage with cymbeline. She can help others who aren't particuarlly 1 rounding if you woudl rather not have her get kill exp. Tanith may be a good canidate for this. I am not sure if she can kill everything on her own, but with Sanaki, she probably can. And Sanaki may not even need to Cymbeline--she may be able to simply use one of the arc spells.

3. There is no point in not deploying her up to 4e4/5. For those 5 chapters, she will only help, so one can't say as much "X unit helps do chip damage than her", because X unit can now go and do somethign else, like maybe help someone else who isn't 1 rounding.

Anti Oliver:

4. Oliver only really exists for endgame. We already have a forced staff user that is actually required to be deployed. She can go to SS staves. Plus, wehave 40 healing items in mass supply. Healers aren't really needed.

5. Lehran exists for 4e5, where staff healing is needed the most. What can be done thanks to him is one of 2 things--he can eat the auras alive assuming Mickey blessed a non-siege tome (even though a siege tome would do her well for 4e3), or he can be the healer who heals after enemy phase when Ashera does the AOE's, while Mickey heals the recoil damage given to people from auras/counters. Some may say that Lehran shoudln't be considered, but BK will be deployed for 1-E if you are trying to steamroll these levels, and no matter what, on 3-7, you have to wait out those 12 turns. So, why not drag Ike over to BK? Transfers make this even easier (BTW, what shoudl I assume now for comparign characters? Transfers? Non-transfers? Either or depending on what gives me the greater edge XP?).

6. Oliver is doing less chip damage than Sanaki if you have the two of them fight enemies. So, Sanaki does that better than Oliver.

Anti Astrid:

7. If I am right about my little transfer on an HM run~a non transfer NM run, than Astrid still fails. At least Snacky will do major chip damage the moment she arrives.

Anti Kyza:

8. He is a laguz, and comes with all of the disadvantages a laguz has. Snacky is beorc, so now 40% downtime, 2 range, can vary what attacks they do depending on the situation, no exp fail.

[Florete]

Also, do the HM enemies have bonuses similar to HHM?

What do you mean? If you need stats, they're stickied at the top of this forum.

If so, than we can expect Astrid to perform on this mode just as she does in NM--badly until trained.

Hence Low/Bottom tier.

Anti Astrid:

7. If I am right about my little transfer on an HM run~a non transfer NM run, than Astrid still fails. At least Snacky will do major chip damage the moment she arrives.

Astrid might need training, but with the transfer it's a lot easier. She has Paragon for 2-3 and 3-9 so you'll probably try to give her kills whenever possible if it doesn't hurt efficiency, which will help her level fast. I like to do the ParaBlossom combo, but since we don't know how Blossom affects growths I can't really use that as argument right now.

I'd need to look further into it before deciding on a winner.

Edited November 8, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Candlejack]

...

Anti-Snacky-

1. Base STR is so bad she's actually worried about it. IT'S LOWER THAN REYSON'S.

2. Base 10 DEF, 28 HP, 30% DEF and SPD growths, and a meager SPD base mean she'll get 1HKO'd if sneezed on.

3. You can baby her like a BITCH to make her SLIGHTLY useful, or you can just use Micaiah or even freakin BASTIAN.

4. She can't even heal. 50% of the appeal of most magic users in this game is Stave utility. AND SHE CAN'T EVEN DO THAT RIGHT. For those curious, the other 50% is Thani.

5. Her affinity is pretty much TERRIBLE if you want to support her with Sigrun. Even Water bonuses suck too.

Anti Sigrun-

1. HAI GAIZ IM MS "Has a lower base SPD than a unit 12 levels below me" Sigrun!

2. I also have the same base STR as Sothe. When he was level one.

3. I also have a lower base DEF than a unit 17 levels below me!

4. lolololol 10% DEF growth, 25% SPD growth, and despite a 320% growth total, I STILL SUCK.