OMG it's a tier list

[dondon151]

And finally, Mist's promotion with the Holy Crown, not Master Crown.

I thought the Holy Crown was removed from non-JP versions? By the way, immediately tossing a Master Crown on Pelleas gives him B staves, whereas every other archsage promotion gets E staves. That's instant Physic, Mend, Restore, etc. for whatever it's worth.

Edited March 5, 2009 by dondon151

[Florete]

I thought the Holy Crown was removed from non-JP versions?

Nope, it's in. The American version at least, not sure what Europeans get.

[Vykan12]

I dunno what all this Pelleas arguing is about, but I side with Red Fox here; Pelleas is pretty bad.

If memory serves correctly, you need about 26 AS to double consistently in 4-2 on normal mode. Pelleas doesn't hit that until 20/1, which he obviously isn't reaching until maybe 4-E, but then you need about 28-30 AS just to double generals of all things.

As for his hit rates, with a worm at base level, he has 134 hit. Enemies have about 60 avo at this point, meaning Pelleas has around 74 display hit. So, considering biorhythm and terrain, his hit rate can range anywhere from 48 to 99, with 87 being the default value. I'd say his hit rate is rather sporadic.

Now, compare his hit to someone else locked to Tibarn's route, namely Tauroneo. At 20/3, he has 96 base accuracy and tons of WT control, so he can always sacrifice damage for hit. Even with something inaccurate like a steel poleax, he still has 156 hit, which is substantially higher than Pelleas, and you can easily find more accurate people than Tauroneo such as Ranulf or many of your GMs.

As for his durability, if he's getting 2HKOed, he has to be used sparingly, which makes it even harder for him to be getting experience. I can easily see him mostly relying on ranged player phase attacks for experience while trying to avoid enemy phase completely. After all, his chances of dying in 2 hits must be enormous, and we don't want to be healing him too much either, since that slows down the team and diverts healer's attention from other units who need it.

Last thing, Pelleas' crowned healing is nothing to write home about. Even crappy characters like Bastian and (forgive me) Oliver can perform the same role, but with higher magic, higher staff rank (yayphysics) and no need for a finite, highly sought-for resource (after all, crowns save 100 exp if they're not used for more drastic purposes).

[-Cynthia-]

Good tier list overall, though I might reccommend moving Nasir up. While he is only available for 2 chapters, 2-Endgame-5 is arguably one of the hardest chapters on the game. First off the Nihil skill comes in very handy, its another laguz royal or really strong Beorc unit that can attack the auras without receving massive damage in return and there are not very many Nihils (or Parities) to go around. Secondly, White Pool is really useful, the +5 Magic is nice but the +5 Speed is a godsend, especially in Hard Mode. Some classes can't even double the auras when they reach their caps, but with White Pool support they can double and kill the auras, which is obviously important. Nasir admittedly does fail as a combat unit by this point, but he provides very crucial support at this time.

Edited March 5, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Lord Raven]

Five? I recall using Ike, Mist, Boyd, Titania, Soren, Shinon, Gatrie, Mia, Nephenee, Haar, Calill and Tanith with people like Ranulf on the side. I didn't have many level issues (All were promoted near or at the start of part 4, Soren and Calill from lv 18). I think you're overrating the experience cut.

I promoted everyone near 3-9 with only five people being used, and Callil got special treatment (I still beat the chapter in like 15 turns with a Callil quasi-solo). It's some exaggeration.

...Then why are we arguing?

"sup guys I won't counter this in the dark mages thread"

Is that why? You think he's average and I think he's bad? (Serious question here)

:) It's a tier thread right?

I'm surprised you haven't mentioned forging.

I probably should've, but it's a given anyway.

If memory serves correctly, you need about 26 AS to double consistently in 4-2 on normal mode. Pelleas doesn't hit that until 20/1, which he obviously isn't reaching until maybe 4-E, but then you need about 28-30 AS just to double generals of all things.

I'm not saying he's doubling things? >_>

As for his hit rates, with a worm at base level, he has 134 hit. Enemies have about 60 avo at this point, meaning Pelleas has around 74 display hit. So, considering biorhythm and terrain, his hit rate can range anywhere from 48 to 99, with 87 being the default value. I'd say his hit rate is rather sporadic.

Of course that also means that he'll be on the good side of 60 more times than not.

Now, compare his hit to someone else locked to Tibarn's route, namely Tauroneo. At 20/3, he has 96 base accuracy and tons of WT control, so he can always sacrifice damage for hit. Even with something inaccurate like a steel poleax, he still has 156 hit, which is substantially higher than Pelleas, and you can easily find more accurate people than Tauroneo such as Ranulf or many of your GMs.

O...k? I'm saying Pelleas hits better than Tauroneo somewhere...?

As for his durability, if he's getting 2HKOed, he has to be used sparingly, which makes it even harder for him to be getting experience. I can easily see him mostly relying on ranged player phase attacks for experience while trying to avoid enemy phase completely. After all, his chances of dying in 2 hits must be enormous, and we don't want to be healing him too much either, since that slows down the team and diverts healer's attention from other units who need it.

The only thing I have to counter this point is that Swordmasters/Snipers definitely fuck him (and Elincia) over. He can take Warriors pretty well (they should have at the very best 40-50% displayed hit against you, and there's loads of terrain nearby too lowering it pretty drastically), and paladins shouldn't be TOO bad.

Last thing, Pelleas' crowned healing is nothing to write home about. Even crappy characters like Bastian and (forgive me) Oliver can perform the same role, but with higher magic, higher staff rank (yayphysics) and no need for a finite, highly sought-for resource (after all, crowns save 100 exp if they're not used for more drastic purposes).

Pelleas can start doing this from 4-2, though. Right at the beginning. Oliver and Bastian can only technically do this for one less chapter, and even then Pelleas still gets a boost to his stats meaning healing isn't the only thing he can do better now..

[dondon151]

Nope, it's in. The American version at least, not sure what Europeans get.

Ah, OK, I got confused with Mist not requiring the Holy Crown to promote in non-JP versions.

Last thing, Pelleas' crowned healing is nothing to write home about. Even crappy characters like Bastian and (forgive me) Oliver can perform the same role, but with higher magic, higher staff rank (yayphysics) and no need for a finite, highly sought-for resource (after all, crowns save 100 exp if they're not used for more drastic purposes).

The benefit of Pelleas's healing after promotion isn't so much the focus as the immediate statistical improvement and access to a separate experience pool that doesn't leave him exposed to danger on the front lines. B staves lets him use Physic already; not having a higher base rank doesn't matter at all because Fortify isn't accessible for a couple of chapters and every other staff is so limited that there's hardly any extra utility associated with them.

Edited March 6, 2009 by dondon151

[Mekkah]

though I might reccommend moving Nasir up.

You just told us stuff about Nasir being useful, but you didn't argue him being more useful as the people above him. I would say he is more useful than Sanaki though, who is essentially a negative for the team for all the chapters she's around. Ena is definitely better though. Sigrun could be argued the same. Vika has a short period of time where she is useful, so it gets a bit shaky there.

That was going by the list in the OP as it is.

[Florete]

I think I could argue Sanaki > Nasir. Her durability may suck cock, but she really packs a punch on the player phase and she is unhindered in the desert. She can also bless a long-range tome for 4-E-3 for someone like Calill, Soren, or Micaiah, or just use it herself. Nasir's pretty useful while he's around, but that's really only for 4-E-5. I find 4-E-4 to be plenty easy without him since anyone that can double Spirits naturally (34 Speed is all you need) should be able to one-round (unless they're on a defense tile).

[Lord Raven]

I definitely would argue the contrary. Sanaki has overall shitty AS (her personal tome will weigh her down to like 20 AS which is enough to get doubled because you've got like 24-25 AS on enemies later), and the only thing that saves her is Resolve. She can easily beat the competition for it (you get two Resolves), but she's still very frail to have to rely on it. And the speed boost from Resolve is also needed by many others anyway because of the difficulty of doubling past Part IV, generally (you've got chars that aren't Ike or Trueblades with like 26-27 average AS too) so the extra Resolve boost helps a lot.

Nasir's valuable in the final chapter, because he lets some people double that can't initially double. Sanaki slows you down and takes away a Resolve. And finally, Nasir comes with a Nihil, not only to prevent

Sephiran

's Corona but

Ashera

's counter damage.

... holy SHIT, I forgot Pelleas got a B in staves! >_>

Edited March 6, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Paperblade]

60 Avoid for 4-2 enemies seems a bit low. You'd only need ~20 Spd/Luck for that, and considering that enemies had like 20+Spd/15 Lck halfway through Part 3, I'd think it'd be closer to 70+ Avoid if not more.

I think I could argue Sanaki > Nasir. Her durability may suck cock, but she really packs a punch on the player phase and she is unhindered in the desert. She can also bless a long-range tome for 4-E-3 for someone like Calill, Soren, or Micaiah, or just use it herself. Nasir's pretty useful while he's around, but that's really only for 4-E-5. I find 4-E-4 to be plenty easy without him since anyone that can double Spirits naturally (34 Speed is all you need) should be able to one-round (unless they're on a defense tile).

I don't have to have Sanaki do ANYTHING to bless a siege tome. She can be at base level with no EXP gained and do that. Same for Ilyana carting items to the GMs and stuff. It doesn't matter.

Sanaki isn't even > Gareth, how could she possibly be > Nasir? I'll redirect you to a couple posts on it.

http://s11.zetaboards.com/Fire_Emblem_Fusi...18&t=395605

http://s11.zetaboards.com/Fire_Emblem_Fusi...27&t=395605

The tier list there was for NM, but 4-E-4/5 enemy stats don't change at all so Gareth's not doing worse while Sanaki is during worse in all the chapters she's in prior to Gareth existing since now she's probably being doubled by even more enemies.

Also, as an addition since I had no files near 4-E-4 when I was posting in that topic: Most Spirits that come as reinforcements in 4-E-4 enter on Wardwood, and the ones near Sephiran that don't move and aren't right next to him for Guard are also on Wardwood. This means that Gareth's massive 62 (!) attack OHKOs a majority of enemies in that chapter.

I'm pretty sure that we can all agree that Nasir > Gareth, since Nasir is literally invincible in the chapters he's in (especially with Imbue) and White Pool > Blood Tide since it lets more people double which is usually going to be a larger offense boost.

Edited March 6, 2009 by Paperblade

[Mekkah]

To continue on Paperblade's "I don't have to do anything with Sanaki for a blessed tome", Nasir coming with Nihil also does nothing for him (other than it not taking capacity on him, but him having it takes away from the team period since he's one of the least likely dudes to actually make use of it).

Though tbh I should note that this

and White Pool > Blood Tide since it lets more people double which is usually going to be a larger offense boost.

is not entirely correct. For people who already double, White Pool adds no extra offense, while Blood Tide is 10 extra damage. Of course, for people who do not double already, the boost is quite a bit larger.

Also, Resolve competition being low? Other than invincible people who ORKO everything, I can see anyone wanting Resolve.

[Florete]

Anything regarding Sanaki's durability

I mentioned that her durability sucks cock, it's one reason she's so low. However, no one seems to mention her player phase offense and the fact that she can do half or more damage to most enemies with her 45 use Cymbeline. Flare is also an indirect durability boost (Granted she isn't one-rounded, which she is occasionally).

I don't have to have Sanaki do ANYTHING to bless a siege tome.

No you don't, but if she can bless it she can also use it, rendering her bad durability nearly meaningless. She also doesn't take a slot for 4-E-3 (or for endgame for that matter) so there is no reason not to use her for this.

This means that Gareth's massive 62 (!) attack OHKOs a majority of enemies in that chapter.

Yeah, if he can hit them. At best Biorythm he has 65% displayed hit against Fire Spirits, the ones with the lower avoid. And if he misses, well, you better hope he has Resolve or you kill all the Spirits before the enemy phase.

I'm pretty sure that we can all agree that Nasir > Gareth, since Nasir is literally invincible in the chapters he's in (especially with Imbue) and White Pool > Blood Tide since it lets more people double which is usually going to be a larger offense boost.

Yes, we can.

[Lord Raven]

Resolve doesn't boost Strength in NOA RD though, unless they fixed this in later versions. In which case, it's just a speed boost that's useful, and possibly skill. No Strength.

So for those already doubling? Don't need it.

For those that aren't? Yeah, I'd recommend it.

Nasir coming with Nihil also does nothing for him (other than it not taking capacity on him, but him having it takes away from the team period since he's one of the least likely dudes to actually make use of it).

The point I brought up was that he adds to the team by bringing Nihil, I never said anywhere he'd be using it.

[Mekkah]

Saying he adds to the team by bringing Nihil is like saying Guy adds to the team by bringing a Killing Edge. It's only an advantage if he was the only one who could use it, but that is not the case. I only have to recruit someone to get their equipment, and in this game, skill scrolls.

Edited March 7, 2009 by Mekkah

[Paperblade]

I mentioned that her durability sucks cock, it's one reason she's so low. However, no one seems to mention her player phase offense and the fact that she can do half or more damage to most enemies with her 45 use Cymbeline. Flare is also an indirect durability boost (Granted she isn't one-rounded, which she is occasionally).

"Occasionally"? She has 23 Speed and her HP/Defense is only SLIGHTLY better than base level DB units (29HP/10 Defense for Sanaki, Nolan has 29/9, Aran has 24/11, Meg has 21/10, Jill has 24/13, Fiona has 25/8).

And 2HKOing when the only 2 units with inferior durability to you are Rafiel and Leanne is worthless. She can't enemy phase counter because otherwise she dies, and Flare is only skl%, and her base skill is only 22. She does 50% of a single unit's HP a turn. That's garbage.

No you don't, but if she can bless it she can also use it, rendering her bad durability nearly meaningless. She also doesn't take a slot for 4-E-3 (or for endgame for that matter) so there is no reason not to use her for this.

Sanaki's Str and Spd are so bad that she actually has doubling issues with siege tomes. She also can't activate Flare. Better than nothing, but it's still the worst on my team and she's not giving supports if she's standing 10 spaces back Meteoring stuff or whatever.

Yeah, if he can hit them. At best Biorythm he has 65% displayed hit against Fire Spirits, the ones with the lower avoid. And if he misses, well, you better hope he has Resolve or you kill all the Spirits before the enemy phase.

Gareth at base level has 165 Hit (90 from weapon + 40 from Skl + 20 Lck + 15 from Ike), are you really suggesting that Spirits have 110 Avoid? Since the slowest ones have 28 Speed, that would require them to have 54 Luck since Sephiran has no leadership.

Perhaps they have 110 in 4-E-5 because Ashera has 5 leadership stars which would move it to a more reasonable 25-30 Luck, but there's also only 3 there at the start + 1-2 reinforcements a turn and they're usually killed by the people who don't have Nihil/Parity/Healing/Tide skill/Vigor. Since Fortify exists only 1 healer is necessary, and there's 4 Nihils/2 Parities/1 healer/4 Dragons/1 Heron, which leaves about 4 units to kill the 1-2 spirit reinforcements per turn. More if you don't use Parity for whatever reason. So Gareth is unnecessary and not even wanted to run off and kill spirits in 4-E-5 since he's helping people do more damage to the auras/Ashera.

Also, most of the spirits in 4-E-4 don't move. The only ones at the start of the map that do are the ones that are within range of you so you can clear them out, and the rest that move are reinforcements which almost always appear on Wardwood which means that pretty much any unit is 2HKOing at worst.

[Florete]

"Occasionally"? She has 23 Speed and her HP/Defense is only SLIGHTLY better than base level DB units (29HP/10 Defense for Sanaki, Nolan has 29/9, Aran has 24/11, Meg has 21/10, Jill has 24/13, Fiona has 25/8).

Yes, occasionally. As long as she uses lighter tomes (Cymbeline, Ellight, etc.) her Speed will be enough to not be doubled by anything except Swordmasters and the boss (obviously, since he has a Brave Sword). With Ellight, she might even be able to double Generals (She did in NM, not sure about HM). For the third time, I know her durability is terrible. I never denied any of that. But comparing her to base level DB units in defensive qualities isn't getting her ORKO'd any more.

She does 50% of a single unit's HP a turn.

50%? More like 2/3-3/4 with Cymbeline, otherwise yeah probably about 50% with Ellight. It's still nice to let someone like Sothe/Micaiah/anyone else you have take the kill more easily, or allows her to take an easy kill if the enemy was weakened on the enemy phase.

Sanaki's Str and Spd are so bad that she actually has doubling issues with siege tomes. She also can't activate Flare. Better than nothing, but it's still the worst on my team and she's not giving supports if she's standing 10 spaces back Meteoring stuff or whatever.

It's still pretty nice because Dragons are fairly tough to kill as it is without Dragonfoe (Which only one unit will have) and Red Dragons especially have crap Resistance. She needs to be ~13 to double Dragons in NM (not sure how much it changes in HM, not likely to be a lot) with Meteor or Blizzard, ~15-16 to double with Bolting (If we got one, anyway). And only ~10-11 to double with Purge even. This is just a little less than 30 damage per hit, 40 if she was able to get a Bolting, and if she doubles she's almost ORKO'ing. That's pretty nice.

are you really suggesting that Spirits have 110 Avoid?

This is telling me they do. But I did forget Ike's authority stars. PE and all, but I've always had hit issues with Gareth whenever I use him.

And you fail to mention that he gets ORKO'd by Ashera's turn 2 direct magical attack when he's transformed. Yeah, there's Wardwood, but he can't always be on one if you're actually using Blood Tide.

Also, most of the spirits in 4-E-4 don't move. The only ones at the start of the map that do are the ones that are within range of you so you can clear them out, and the rest that move are reinforcements which almost always appear on Wardwood which means that pretty much any unit is 2HKOing at worst.

So what makes Gareth so special?

[Mekkah]

+5 damage (+10 on a double) and +10 hit against those auras seems pretty damn special to me.

Edited March 7, 2009 by Mekkah

[Florete]

+5 damage (+10 on a double) and +10 hit against those auras seems pretty damn special to me.

What he said (which is what's easily possible) doesn't require use of Gareth (or Ena for that matter) with a good enough team (which is easily possible even in HM). Even Sothe can ORKO Spirits that aren't on a defense tile at max strength/34 Speed.

[CT075]

"Occasionally"? She has 23 Speed and her HP/Defense is only SLIGHTLY better than base level DB units (29HP/10 Defense for Sanaki, Nolan has 29/9, Aran has 24/11, Meg has 21/10, Jill has 24/13, Fiona has 25/8).

And 2HKOing when the only 2 units with inferior durability to you are Rafiel and Leanne is worthless. She can't enemy phase counter because otherwise she dies, and Flare is only skl%, and her base skill is only 22. She does 50% of a single unit's HP a turn. That's garbage.

Yeah... Except that, as a mage, she shouldn't really be getting hit much anyway. You wouldn't let Micaiah get one-rounded, would you? NO. Therefore, just treat Sanaki as a more poweful Micaiah. She's used for chip damage.

Sanaki's Str and Spd are so bad that she actually has doubling issues with siege tomes. She also can't activate Flare. Better than nothing, but it's still the worst on my team and she's not giving supports if she's standing 10 spaces back Meteoring stuff or whatever.

Fair enough.

Perhaps they have 110 in 4-E-5 because Ashera has 5 leadership stars which would move it to a more reasonable 25-30 Luck, but there's also only 3 there at the start + 1-2 reinforcements a turn and they're usually killed by the people who don't have Nihil/Parity/Healing/Tide skill/Vigor. Since Fortify exists only 1 healer is necessary, and there's 4 Nihils/2 Parities/1 healer/4 Dragons/1 Heron, which leaves about 4 units to kill the 1-2 spirit reinforcements per turn. More if you don't use Parity for whatever reason. So Gareth is unnecessary and not even wanted to run off and kill spirits in 4-E-5 since he's helping people do more damage to the auras/Ashera.

Really... I'm pretty sure that Gareth has crap accuracy against everything, even spirits in 4-E-4. Also, this is assuming that Gareth is at BEST BIORYTHM. He is not likely to have that all the time. So Blood Tide is all that he has going for him anyway.

Edited March 8, 2009 by Camtech075

[Paperblade]

Yes, occasionally. As long as she uses lighter tomes (Cymbeline, Ellight, etc.) her Speed will be enough to not be doubled by anything except Swordmasters and the boss (obviously, since he has a Brave Sword). With Ellight, she might even be able to double Generals (She did in NM, not sure about HM). For the third time, I know her durability is terrible. I never denied any of that. But comparing her to base level DB units in defensive qualities isn't getting her ORKO'd any more.

The comparison was to show that her stats are terrible. Axe users OHKO her with ease, and Lance/Bow users with stronger weapons come damn close. Swordmasters double her. Her avoid isn't very good either, 78 base Avoid is crappy, especially when SMs/Snipers are getting close to 150 Hit, and even Axe users can muster 130+. This is worse than literally *every other unit on the team*, save MAYBE Micaiah, who at least wins Avoid because of her affinity.

50%? More like 2/3-3/4 with Cymbeline, otherwise yeah probably about 50% with Ellight. It's still nice to let someone like Sothe/Micaiah/anyone else you have take the kill more easily, or allows her to take an easy kill if the enemy was weakened on the enemy phase.

Why is Micaiah attacking? She should be healing, since her group has worse Avoid because her authority is lol.

Sothe getting the kill is lulz. Oh yes, the unit whose only use in 4-3 is to run around getting the treasure (White Gem, Baselard, Laguz Gem) because he actually has doubling issues vs. enemies, he likely won't kill them even with Sanaki attacking first and in 4-P is just worthless because of lol 22Str cap + Knives. 4-E-1 is Generals and Sothe still has doubling issues (he has to be like 20/4 to reliably double, which is unlikely unless you threw Paragon on him) and 3HKOs at best with the Baselard (+ lots of Generals are on Wardwood, which hurts Sanaki's offense even more). 4-E-2 is wide open spaces so Sanaki has issues being out in the open because OH SNAP ONE ROUNDED and Sothe still can't double.

There aren't many other units with offense that bad. There's what, Nealuchi? Sigrun? Insert other crap tier unit here? Oh wowzers, Sanaki makes a Low Tier unit slightly easier to feed kills to.

It's still pretty nice because Dragons are fairly tough to kill as it is without Dragonfoe (Which only one unit will have) and Red Dragons especially have crap Resistance. She needs to be ~13 to double Dragons in NM (not sure how much it changes in HM, not likely to be a lot) with Meteor or Blizzard, ~15-16 to double with Bolting (If we got one, anyway). And only ~10-11 to double with Purge even. This is just a little less than 30 damage per hit, 40 if she was able to get a Bolting, and if she doubles she's almost ORKO'ing. That's pretty nice.

Are you joking? Sanaki getting 10+ levels in 4 maps on HM? Sanaki, who gets at best 2 kills per turn (assuming Leanne galdrar) because she can't take a hit to save her life? When there are dozens of units who can rambo into 5+ enemies, take almost no damage, and kill/almost kill them all?

But I did forget Ike's authority stars. PE and all, but I've always had hit issues with Gareth whenever I use him.

I've never had serious issues compared to other units unless Gareth was in bad Bio.

And you fail to mention that he gets ORKO'd by Ashera's turn 2 direct magical attack when he's transformed. Yeah, there's Wardwood, but he can't always be on one if you're actually using Blood Tide.

Ashera has a predetermined attack rotation, if you can't be bothered to use a Pure Water or Barrier or move him onto a Wardwood or move Kurth next to him the turn before she uses her ranged magical attack yet you can be bothered to create a fortified wall of meat for Sanaki every single turn for 4-P/4-3/4-E-1/4-E-2 then I don't really know what to say.

So what makes Gareth so special?

Gareth when he's around is like Sanaki every chapter prior to the last 2, only he has so much HP he still doesn't die that easily, he has a useful skill, and he doesn't need to be babied 10 levels to be useful.

[Florete]

Why is Micaiah attacking? She should be healing, since her group has worse Avoid because her authority is lol.

Micaiah can attack since she won't likely be needing to heal every single turn. Plus, since just about every enemy is mounted or armored, she raeps with Thani. Not OR'ing, but getting close.

Sothe getting the kill is lulz.

He's there, he's forced, he's not that bad. If you're going to have him on the map (you might as well until 4-E-4 where he still might get a slot) you might as well make use of him.

Oh wowzers, Sanaki makes a Low Tier unit slightly easier to feed kills to.

She makes it easier for anyone to kill. Most characters probably aren't OR'ing every enemy here, so taking off a chunk of their health first can be nice for allowing them to kill immediately.

Are you joking? Sanaki getting 10+ levels in 4 maps on HM? Sanaki, who gets at best 2 kills per turn (assuming Leanne galdrar) because she can't take a hit to save her life? When there are dozens of units who can rambo into 5+ enemies, take almost no damage, and kill/almost kill them all?

That's just to double. She can still do single hits without doubling, and doing so is still nice. And it's not like she doesn't get any BEXP. And don't forget that part 4 enemies give quite a lot of experience anyway, so even if she can't hit the level at the start of the map, she might hit it partway through.

I've never had serious issues compared to other units unless Gareth was in bad Bio.

Still, his hit chance isn't great, and if he misses that's a large chunk of HP gone. If he's targeted by anything Lehran can do, bye-bye Gareth.

Ashera has a predetermined attack rotation, if you can't be bothered to use a Pure Water or Barrier or move him onto a Wardwood or move Kurth next to him the turn before she uses her ranged magical attack yet you can be bothered to create a fortified wall of meat for Sanaki every single turn for 4-P/4-3/4-E-1/4-E-2 then I don't really know what to say.

So they both need handicaps, right?

Gareth when he's around is like Sanaki every chapter prior to the last 2, only he has so much HP he still doesn't die that easily, he has a useful skill, and he doesn't need to be babied 10 levels to be useful.

Doesn't die that easily? He's 1-2 rounded by everything he ever faces because his Resistance is shit. He's around for two maps that Blood Tide isn't so useful for anyway (Spirits can easily be OR'd without it, Auras + Ashera can still be easily done in 3-4 turns with just Nasir).

I'll move Sanaki down, but I'm not convinced she's lower than Gareth.

[Mekkah]

The excuses are nice and all, but nonetheless you cannot really get around the fact that Sanaki is being a huge detriment for pre-Gareth part 4.

Doesn't die that easily? He's 1-2 rounded by everything he ever faces because his Resistance is shit. He's around for two maps that Blood Tide isn't so useful for anyway (Spirits can easily be OR'd without it, Auras + Ashera can still be easily done in 3-4 turns with just Nasir).

They can also easily be done in that many turns without Sanaki, but Gareth at least allows Caineghis/Giffca to ORKO wardwood Auras. Plus he gives people more hit, which helps since all those things have wtf avo. Definitely more helpful than Sanaki's one attack per turn.

[Progenitus]

lol @ Gareth getting 1 or 2 rounded.

Because it's fun ignoring the fact that 1/4th of all the tiles in 4-E-4 are wardwoods, or how pure waters exist, or how barrier exists, or how we could always just park Gareth next to Kurth, mirite?

Clearly we have to put as much effort into stopping Gareth from dying in 4-E-4 as Sanaki is in every single other part 4 map she's in because she gets one rounded by nearly everything and 2 rounded by the rest. Because, you know, Sanaki having far less options in terms of "IMMA STOP GETTING THE CRAP PWNED OUT OF ME" means it's easier to baby her than Gareth.

But clearly Sanaki gets brownie points for being a loli while Gareth looks like he has to take a massive dump, mirite?

Edited March 14, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Florete]

I don't know about you, but I don't map Kurth just so Gareth can live (He's not really helping anyone else at this point). If Gareth is on a Wardwood, that's already restricting his use because you might not be able to get him on one where people can attack Auras from next to him. Pure Water and maybe a Ward staff ar the only ones I see being put to best use.

Clearly we have to put as much effort into stopping Gareth from dying in 4-E-4 as Sanaki is in every single other part 4 map she's in because she gets one rounded by nearly everything and 2 rounded by the rest. Because, you know, Sanaki having far less options in terms of "IMMA STOP GETTING THE CRAP PWNED OUT OF ME" means it's easier to baby her than Gareth.

What makes Sanaki so hard to "protect" anyway? In 4-P both paths can be blocked by just two people, which you'll probably do anyway to protect Leanne. 4-3 can be a bit tougher with the Dragonmasters, but it's not like she doesn't have full move while any of the multitude of foot units has only 2 move. And it's not like there are a million Dragonmasters anyway (And when they're near enough, she can fry them with Thunder magic).

Gareth has to survive attacks from enemies who can literally hit him from anywhere, so you're forced to be very specific with his protection. Sure, he's better for one map (I wouldn't call him better for 4-E-4 where Sanaki can't even be hurt and most of your guys can OR anyway), and Sanaki's not done much in her chapters, but neither has Gareth.

[Metal Rabbit]

Wait... aren't the lions broken enough to ORKO auras without using Gareth as a boost? Let alone Ena.