OMG it's a tier list

[-Cynthia-]

I would agree with that too.

Not to mention if we do Mia> Sothe, then why not Titania or Gatrie> Sothe etc. etc. The lines between DB and GM units are fairly arbitrary.

[Interceptor]

I'll have to write that up tommorow,unless Int,you want to do it?

Nope. Chance of RF and I having a reasonable debate about Sothe is about as good as Oscar's base crit on generics.

Not to mention if we do Mia> Sothe, then why not Titania or Gatrie> Sothe etc. etc.

Sounds like a great idea to me. How about putting him near Shinon?

[Florete]

Sothe's position is entirely dependent on how much weight you put to his part 1. He has 3 maps where he's leagues better than anyone else and for the rest he's always among your better units, even when awesome people like Zihark and Tormod come in. The next person on the list that he can be compared to before part 4 is Nailah, who's only real reason to be a tier up on the likes of Tibarn and Naesala...is her part 1 maps. Then Zihark, who also wouldn't be High if all he had to boast was part 3 and 4 (he'd be like Mid or lower).

I don't know, honestly. He's definitely important for his time, more so than the likes of Titania, Gatrie, and Mia, but it's true that his part 3 is shaky and his part 4 is sort of bad, though free deployment until 4-E-4 definitely helps as well. I lowered Volug in the first place because I agreed that he wasn't really all that different from Sothe in part 1, which is where most of the weight is, and I think the only reason there is even a tier gap is because Volug gets better for part 3 and stays good.

Sounds like a great idea to me. How about putting him near Shinon?

I don't think so.

[-Cynthia-]

Sounds like a great idea to me. How about putting him near Shinon?

This would be outright ignoring Sothe's massive Part 1 contributions. He's your absolute best unit from 1-2 to 1-4, and that's just in combat. Then you add in that without Sothe you're going to miss things (or waste a lot of turns) getting the Energy Drop/Seraph Robe/ Beastfoe/ gold etc. and his contributions in these chapters are higher than like everything except the BK in 1-9.

AFter that some people show up that at least compete with Sothe (Volug/Zihark), but I would argue that Sothe> Zihark for the remainder of Part 1 and probably better than Volug as well. Sothe really has no reason to use any weapons other than forged Iron knives, which means he can avoid counters/ kill mages easier etc. (I guess Zihark has Wind Edges, but their Mt and Hit is pretty terrible).

Mia/Titania/Gatrie on the other hand are pretty replacable with other GMs (worse than Ike/Haar, can use people like Nephenee/Oscar/Shinon etc. for similar results). Sothe of course has his chapters where he's not so great, but so do they (Mia in 3-P and 3-1, Titania and Gatrie in 3-4/3-7 and 4-E).

Basically, I would give priority to the guy who's a basic necessity for a few chapters rather than people who are good in a crowd of other good units.

I'm sort of against having Sothe and Volug in different tiers. They're similar performance wise when together in Part 1, except Sothe has 3 chapters where he's your best unit by a mile. Volug wins Part 3 which counteracts these, so it comes down to Part 4. Sothe finds some items in the desert and is forced for 4-E, Volug is better at combat but is mediocre in comparison to everyone at this point anyway, so I wouldn't weigh it too highly.

Edited March 3, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Narga_Rocks]

Sounds like a great idea to me. How about putting him near Shinon?

Predictable.

At the lowest I'd say above Zihark. Considering you have units like Taur, the LEA, Volug, Nailah, BK for all of Zihark's part 1 chapters (not all at once, obviously) but you don't really have much at all for 1-2, 1-3, 1-4, I have a hard time seeing Zihark > Sothe. Part 3 at least Sothe can do something helpful if you have someone ready to trade out his suicide weapon (it is nice to have on player phase despite the hit issues). Part 4 he's still free deployment and can pick stuff up. I don't see how Sothe is so bad that he should drop down to Mr. Player Phase. Whether or not he is better than Mia/Titania/Gatrie is a matter of perspective and how you weigh things, I suppose. How about a Sothe v. Nailah comparison?

(Oh, and if all Zihark had was part 3 and 4 he's still at least mid. Possibly upper mid, though the part 3 is bad. Still, he's no worse really than many of the others there depending on what you do with him. As long as he can get levels without putting himself in danger and you still let him have his A something support by 3-12 or 3-13 he'll be okay but not great in part 4. It's not as if Nephenee is ORKOing either, so Zihark can be okay in part 4 and still be upper mid. He's probably going to be more durable, but I suppose +20 sm crit and Astra vs. +10 Sentinel Crit and almost as much skill and Impale means her proc will be higher than his. I'm not sure by how much, though.)

Edited March 3, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[nflchamp]

Predictable.

At the lowest I'd say above Zihark. Considering you have units like Taur, the LEA, Volug, Nailah, BK for all of Zihark's part 1 chapters (not all at once, obviously) but you don't really have much at all for 1-2, 1-3, 1-4, I have a hard time seeing Zihark > Sothe. Part 3 at least Sothe can do something helpful if you have someone ready to trade out his suicide weapon (it is nice to have on player phase despite the hit issues). Part 4 he's still free deployment and can pick stuff up. I don't see how Sothe is so bad that he should drop down to Mr. Player Phase. Whether or not he is better than Mia/Titania/Gatrie is a matter of perspective and how you weigh things, I suppose. How about a Sothe v. Nailah comparison?

I'd drop Zihark down to Shinon and Nolan out of High, but that's just me.

[Narga_Rocks]

I'd drop Zihark down to Shinon and Nolan out of High, but that's just me.

I tried before to push Zihark below Janaff and couldn't even manage that, so I gave up.

It's actually part of why people suggesting "RF does whatever Int and Narga want" (or words to that effect) bother me. I'd lower Zihark, I'd probably lower Nolan, I'd lower Sothe. I'm not sure I'd lower Reyson, but Interceptor clearly would, and I like Ike > Haar rather than Haar > Ike, but I have no clue what Int would do. Personally I'd be tempted to stick Ed at the bottom of mid, but I think maybe I just pity the guy that would have been great in a game with enemies that weren't crazy fast and durable nearly from the start. Since they were willing to give Mia 28 spd at base rather than 25 or 26 they should have at least given Ed 14 to start, 13 minimum. 12 is ridiculous for a myrm given the rapid growth of enemy speed.

Anyway, point of all this is that we are clearly in control of nothing.

Edited March 3, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Interceptor]

I don't think so.

I was just being snarky, I know I'm in the minority on this issue. People give Sothe's chapters more weight than I do, there is no bridging the gap, period.

At the lowest I'd say above Zihark.

Agreed, but Z is also over-rated, so I'll bet that you can predict where I'd probably go from there.

[grandjackal]

EDIT: Whoop, it was snark. Sorry 'bout that, my comment would have sounded a bit rude ;;>>

Edited March 3, 2010 by Cait Sith

[Narga_Rocks]

I was just being snarky, I know I'm in the minority on this issue. People give Sothe's chapters more weight than I do, there is no bridging the gap, period.

Given how short her response was, I think she knows you were just being snarky. Either that or it's so short simply because you both know the conversation won't go anywhere useful so why bother.

[Interceptor]

Anyway, point of all this is that we are clearly in control of nothing.

A point that will be absorbed by none that need to hear it, naturally.

EDIT: Whoop, it was snark. Sorry 'bout that, my comment would have sounded a bit rude ;;>>

At the risk of being entirely too meta and offtopic about this, I say I'd be a pretty big hypocrite if I complained about people being rude to me, big jerkbag that I am.

[Narga_Rocks]

A point that will be absorbed by none that need to hear it, naturally.

True. I should probably quit saying it until it's called for again. I was just whining, I guess.

At the risk of being entirely too meta and offtopic about this, I say I'd be a pretty big hypocrite if I complained about people being rude to me, big jerkbag that I am.

You want I should mod this for being offtopic? (Followed by modding myself for the same?)

[grandjackal]

To save you both the misery, how 'bout I get things back on topic. Sort of.

Meg starts at level 3. How exactly many levels would one say she could get after given an iron forge and Wrath for 1-4?

Yes it's stupid, I'm just inexplicable curious is all.

[Narga_Rocks]

To save you both the misery, how 'bout I get things back on topic. Sort of.

Meg starts at level 3. How exactly many levels would one say she could get after given an iron forge and Wrath for 1-4?

Yes it's stupid, I'm just inexplicably curious is all.

I'm still not sure how precisely exp gains against laguz enemies are calculated, sorry. The one thing we know is that for PC laguz their level is doubled, so I'd assume so are the enemy laguz. Since they range between level 4 and level 6, that suggests level 8 to level 12. Say level 10 on average (though I'm sure that's not the average). Meg is level 3. The formula for beorc would mean she gets 5 + 7/2 for a hit, and 20 + 21/2 for a kill. So say 9 and 31, since I don't know whether or not the game rounds up or down. I think there is a +5 in there because of the laguz, but I don't know what effect the enemy being laguz has on kill exp. Say 14 and 36? Even if we give her 6 kills she's not getting more than 2 levels. There are less than 20 laguz on the map. It seems reasonable to assume she's not getting any more than 6 kills. Even if you give her some non-kills on top of it, you are still looking at ending the map at less than level 6 (or maybe just barely level 6). And that's a high end estimate, since 6 attacks + 6 kills doesn't seem particularly feasible for Meg.

Edited March 3, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Also of note, is that Sothe helps make the GMs not poor. According to Int's sig, the GMs are looking to receive ~53,000g in cash by 3-2, and just from 2 Arms Scrolls and 4 Master Seals pickups alone, Sothe would be providing 28,000g of that.

[grandjackal]

Don't know how laguz kill exp is calculated, eh? I'm at 1-4, could give you data through PM, you could work the maths from there, eh?

[nflchamp]

To save you both the misery, how 'bout I get things back on topic. Sort of.

Meg starts at level 3. How exactly many levels would one say she could get after given an iron forge and Wrath for 1-4?

Yes it's stupid, I'm just inexplicable curious is all.

What does wrath matter? I thought Meg was ORKO'd by 75% of the map.

[Narga_Rocks]

Also of note, is that Sothe helps make the GMs not poor. According to Int's sig, the GMs are looking to receive ~53,000g in cash by 3-2, and just from 2 Arms Scrolls and 4 Master Seals pickups alone, Sothe would be providing 28,000g of that.

Game is stupid and you can't sell Master Seals. Besides, I use most of them. The link in Int's sig never mentions Seals, either. Sothe is good for the arms scrolls though, I'll give you. 1-8 is too short to risk any other unit sitting there, and 1-6-1 has too much stuff to kill since it's a rout map.

What does wrath matter? I thought Meg was ORKO'd by 75% of the map.

You can give her bexp, I suppose, and she'll probably get spd and so tigers don't double. Even at level 3, though, that's still 300 bexp. When you only have 500 bexp max, that's a fairly large chunk of it. Anyway, cats fail against her since she can easily take 2 hits from them. 21hp/10def against 18 mt. She's 3HKOd. Their 8 crit fails against her 8 cev and that's assuming you sold Fortune. Now, the annoying thing about facing Cats is that wrath hp is 6, and cats knock her down to 5 after she counters. Also, 24 mt tigers knock her down to 7 hp, which just happens to be too high. The only thing she can attempt to wrath-crit on enemy phase are the 26 mt tigers.

Edited March 3, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[nflchamp]

Game is stupid and you can't sell Master Seals. Besides, I use most of them. The link in Int's sig never mentions Seals, either. Sothe is good for the arms scrolls though, I'll give you. 1-8 is too short to risk any other unit sitting there, and 1-6-1 has too much stuff to kill since it's a rout map.

But he's already getting (dubious) credit for getting them. It doesn't matter where they go after that.

[Interceptor]

What does wrath matter? I thought Meg was ORKO'd by 75% of the map.

By which you mean, Meg doesn't have the capacity to equip it anyway. Only tier 1 that can spare the 15 points is Micaiah.

[Narga_Rocks]

By which you mean, Meg doesn't have the capacity to equip it anyway. Only tier 1 that can spare the 15 points is Micaiah.

And I PM'd him a link a day or two ago to the capacities page. But it's fun to imagine what (little) she could do.

[grandjackal]

What does wrath matter? I thought Meg was ORKO'd by 75% of the map.

4x Tiger lvl 6

HP 41, Atk 26, AS 12, Hit 125, Avo 31, DEF 10, RES 2, Crit 7, Ddg 2

3x Tiger lvl 5

HP 40, Atk 24, AS 10, Hit 125, Avo 27, DEF 10, RES 2, Crit 7, Ddg 2

1x Tiger lvl 4

HP 39, Atk 24, AS 10, Hit 120, Avo 26, DEF 10, RES 2, Crit 6, Ddg 1

2x Cat lvl 5

HP 34, Atk 18, AS 14, Hit 128, Avo 34, DEF 8, RES 4, Crit 8, Ddg 1

1x Cat lvl 6

HP 35, Atk 18, AS 14, Hit 128, Avo 34, DEF 8, RES 6, Crit 8, Ddg 1

1x Pain lvl 6 (tiger boss)

HP 43, Atk 26, AS 10, Hit 132, Avo 30, DEF 12, RES 2, Crit 8, Ddg 5

1x Agony lvl 6 (tiger boss)

HP 43, Atk 24, AS 12, Hit 130, Avo 32, DEF 10, RES 8, Crit 9, Ddg 3

4 tigers and the boss, 5 out of 14. It's still too many, but I know this is stupid. I'm just curious is all.

This stops if and when she procs speed. The cats however put her in Wrath range. That was to help her combat where it could, but again, I know it's stupid. Don't even ask why I'm asking, I get this nagging twitch that once it starts, I need to look at something from every angle before I bother stopping, even if I know it's fruitless.

Yes, it explains a lot, I know.

EDIT: Oh, it's a 15 point skill. *headdesk* never-friggin'-mind then.

Edited March 3, 2010 by Cait Sith

[Anouleth]

This stops if and when she procs speed. The cats however put her in Wrath range. That was to help her combat where it could, but again, I know it's stupid. Don't even ask why I'm asking, I get this nagging twitch that once it starts, I need to look at something from every angle before I bother stopping, even if I know it's fruitless.

The cats hit her, she counter-attacks for fail damage, then they hit her again and then she's in Wrath mode. The only way she can attack with Wrath means she'd be killed.

I'd rather keep it on Eddie.

Personally I'd be tempted to stick Ed at the bottom of mid, but I think maybe I just pity the guy that would have been great in a game with enemies that weren't crazy fast and durable nearly from the start. Since they were willing to give Mia 28 spd at base rather than 25 or 26 they should have at least given Ed 14 to start, 13 minimum. 12 is ridiculous for a myrm given the rapid growth of enemy speed.

Ah, what could have been...

I think that all Eddie needed to be decent in HM is to start off with A Leonardo and an extra point of speed to start off with.

[Narga_Rocks]

The cats hit her, she counter-attacks for fail damage, then they hit her again and then she's in Wrath mode. The only way she can attack with Wrath means she'd be killed.

I'd rather keep it on Eddie.

Or Micaiah. But if it can be arranged that Ed faces precisely one enemy on enemy phase even if he kills the enemy, he could arguably be better for wrath than Micaiah if he's doubling (since he gets more shots at it). Troubles are if he decides to finally dodge something or if he isn't doubling. Or if he isn't 4HKOing or better, considering after a few maps Micaiah 2HKOs pretty much everything she isn't OHKOing thanks to Thani becoming 24 mt on certain enemies. Also Micaiah can do her thing on player phase and Ed does his on enemy phase, so it's arguable which one is better.

Ah, what could have been...

I think that all Eddie needed to be decent in HM is to start off with A Leonardo and an extra point of speed to start off with.

I say B Leo. It would still hit A Leo for 1-4 no matter what you do. They are a 00 and thus simply for being deployed in 1-1, 1-2, 1-3 they'd reach the next level of support. I think an A support is too much. Also, in the long run I'd rather have Ed with A Nolan (long run means if I'm taking Ed to part 4). Story-wise, of course, Ed x Nolan starting with anything would make no sense, whereas Ed x Leo would make some sense. But even so, I'd break the hypothetical auto-A Leo in 1-4 to start building Ed x Nolan if I had any intention of using Ed for the long haul. But I guess +1 or +2 spd and an A Leo for the first few chapters would make Ed a lot more usable at first, and then by 1-4 it wouldn't be as crippling for Ed to go from A Leo to C Nolan. Loses 2 mt, 2 def/res, 5 hit, gains just 8 avo (since 3 def is 2 higher than 1 def). But that's worth it to get 23 avo later.

(I realize that towards the end of this paragraph I'm starting Ed with A Leo. It is a cool idea and does help Ed a lot. I think too much so that's why I suggested an alternative, but +3 def to start the game is too fun/helpful to pass up.)

[dondon151]

I'm surprised that Ed and Leo don't have any level of support to begin with. Not even a bond.